UK Muslim lawyers win right to wear veil in court

[Muezzin]

What's all this talk of operating theatres? I thought this was about a lawyer.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It isn't about her being covered. Its about her being heard. If she isn't heard she shouldn't be in the courtroom doing a disservice to her client regardless of the reason she isn't being heard, whether it is the veil or not.

Evidently in this case the Judge thought it was the veil, so it had to come off. I'm sure she had the option of finding her client another lawyer and leaving the court proceedings.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Then I should tell the doctors to leave the room because they're covering their mouth. They do it because they are following the rules of the hospital, just like the woman wearing the veil because she is following the Laws of God.

 

[Curious girl2]

Then I should tell the doctors to leave the room because they're covering their mouth. They do it because they are following the rules of the hospital, just like the woman wearing the veil because she is following the Laws of God.

I am presuming you are replying to me..... I am a little confused, why should you tell the doctor to leave the room? The doctor is covering his mouth to prevent infection which endanger the life of the patient. There is no choice involved.

The sister who was wearing the Niqaab, chose to do so. Yes I know that obviously she felt she needed to, to follow God's laws, but for the most part it is accepted that Niqaab is personal choice (I am aware that some muslims feel that Niqaab is obligatory, but on the other side of the coin, other muslims feel that Hijab is enough). I really dont know enough about this particular case to judge whether hearing impairment was involved, I am just trying to put across the view of a hearing impaired person. If the judge in question asked this lady to remove her Niqaab because he was hearing impaired and it was preventing him from lipreading or understanding her speech adequately then I think he was justified. For any other reason, then no, she should be allowed to wear her Niqaab in court if she wishes.

Peace
CG

 

[Pygoscelis]

Doctors cover their mouths when in a court room? Why on earth? What a quirky society you must live in.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I am presuming you are replying to me..... I am a little confused, why should you tell the doctor to leave the room? The doctor is covering his mouth to prevent infection which endanger the life of the patient. There is no choice involved.

The sister who was wearing the Niqaab, chose to do so. Yes I know that obviously she felt she needed to, to follow God's laws, but for the most part it is accepted that Niqaab is personal choice (I am aware that some muslims feel that Niqaab is obligatory, but on the other side of the coin, other muslims feel that Hijab is enough). I really dont know enough about this particular case to judge whether hearing impairment was involved, I am just trying to put across the view of a hearing impaired person. If the judge in question asked this lady to remove her Niqaab because he was hearing impaired and it was preventing him from lipreading or understanding her speech adequately then I think he was justified. For any other reason, then no, she should be allowed to wear her Niqaab in court if she wishes.

Peace
CG

Sorry, u presumed wrong sister
The doctor wears it to prevent germs and such, and a Muslim sisters who wear it, do it to prevent gazes from men. When a doctor talks, it too comes out unclear, dont u need to communicate during such a thing? Why the double standards?

 

[Curious girl2]

Sorry, u presumed wrong sister

OK, no probs!

Peace CG

 

[Pygoscelis]

I was being addressed and I responded accordingly. Nonsense to nonsense.

The doctor covers her mouth to stop infection. She did so in an entirely different setting, a hospital, not a court room.

You may as well have asked "Why doesn't a boxer have to take out his mouthguard" or "Why doesn't a scuba diver have to take off her breathing apparatus".

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol i responded accordingly, either u didnt read it or felt like ignoring it. It doesnt matter the setting, u still communicate in it. The doctor had his legiteasons and we, as Muslim woman, have ours. We'll choose to obey G-d over a human being.

Regards

OK, no probs!

Peace CG

Ok then

Peace

 

[Pygoscelis]

It doesnt matter the setting

It doesn't matter the setting?

Of course the setting matters.

A doctor could be endangering somebody's life if she didn't wear her mask during surgery. A lawyer is actually DOING THEIR CLIENT HARM if they can not be heard.

There is no paralel between the two. One mask is aiding the work being done and the other is hindering it.

Of course the best solution is probably just for the lady in question to speak up.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The point i am trying to make, either ur ignoring it or picking and choosing what you want to answer. It doesn't matter. Here we are discussing communication, which even with DOCTORS covering their mouth, its difficult. Yet we agree they need to cuz its for the best. Just like Muslim woman who veil, for us, its best. That is the point being addressed here. Yet u feel the need to drag that point, being thats how confusion and debate arises.

Regards

 

[Muezzin]

Okay, I tried the nice approach and no one listened.

Next person to go off topic about doctors or surgery theatres or clowns or anything other than the topic at hand will have their post deleted and infractions added.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Yet we agree they need to cuz its for the best. Just like Muslim woman who veil, for us, its best.

That is the fundamental difference. It isn't best for her client, only for her. She should not allow her religious views to impede her professional work effectiveness.

And if her religious practice makes her inefective and does her client and the court a dissservice she should find a way to make it work (such as speaking up perhaps) or have that practice interfered with. That is all that is going on here.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Sorry Muezzin, but i need to use the doctor thing, because im trying to make my point. So please, if u dont mind =\

How is the doctor covering his mouth, best for the patient? The patient doesn't know whats going on during surgery. The doctors wear its to avoid germs and such from getting to them, no? Something similar to a Muslim woman. The only difference being is to avoid gazes and unnecessary attention. Ok the point being addressed here is that her client is unable to hear her while they try to talk to her or listen. I could say the same for those assisting the doctor. They can still hear, no? Has the woman not been wearing it before with other clients? Why the fuss with one now? If the client can't hear her, he/she can get another one.

 

[Muezzin]

You can discuss it as a point only, but if this thread becomes derailed as a result (in the way other threads have when someone has used something as unassuming as an example to prove a point), I will delete the posts.

 

[Pygoscelis]

How is the doctor covering his mouth, best for the patient? The patient doesn't know whats going on during surgery. The doctors wear its to avoid germs and such from getting to them, no?

No. And there are two important differences.

First the mask on the doctor is as much to avoid GIVING the patient germs as getting them. Surgery requires a sterile environment. Infection during surgery is very likely to kill the patient. There is NO BENEFIT to the client or the court from the muslim lawyer wearing a veil, only a disservice if she can't make herself heard while wearing it.

Second, the wearing of the veil is a religious preference and not a matter of life or death, as is a surgical mask.

Religious people should be allowed their practices so long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others which this was apparently doing.

Your arguments are reminding me of the case where a woman, I think muslim but I may be wrong, wanted to wear a veil covering her face in a driver's license photo. The photo being intended as a means of identification and the veil hiding it caused a security problem that trumped her religious freedom.

Has the woman not been wearing it before with other clients?

I don't know if she had or hadn't.

Why the fuss with one now?

Apparently it became an issue in the court room.

If the client can't hear her, he/she can get another one.

Are you saying the lawyer can get another client or the client can get another laywer? Both are true, and I would be against her being forced to stay on representing the client if she wanted to be replaced. I wouldn't support forcing her to represent the client and thus wear the veil. But if she's in the courtroom and unable to represent her client with the veil, then either the veil must go, or she must go.