UK Muslim Leader Urge Women to Take off the Hijab

[- Qatada -]

I personally call it unatural because of mans greatest tool communication

OK root to begin with Islam doesn't encourage the male and the female sex to have a conversation with each other just for the fun of it. If a women needs to buy something from a shop or store the shop keeper doesn't need to look at her face expression to see what she has in her hand/what she wants to buy, she simply buys the product, leaves the store and goes back to her home or friends.

There she doesn't have to cover her face, she can take the hijab off as long as their are only mehram men there. (mehram - men who cannot get married to her eg. her father, son, grandad, stepson etc.) She can take her hijab off in front of them but she should still remain modest.

In addition, facial recognition plays a very important role to us all wether or not you may acknowledge this. Sub-conciously we use face recognition to build trust & not lust.

You ever noticed how in all these movies when a gurl or guy look at each other they say things such as 'love at first sight.' Now imagine if a women wore a niqaab over her face, could that actually happen? would a guy look at the gurl and go 'i'm in luv' or would he look away cz he believes the gurl'z not worth looking at. That is what happens when most men look at niqaabis and hence the lust doesn't even start off becz he looks away right at the beginning.


As I said, I don't see anything wrong with wearing an Hijab but I fail to see why one needs to cover ones full face.

Refer to what i just said above.

Some cultures in the world today see women not covering up other than genitalia including women (excluding breasts), yet your culture and my culture (I make a destinction) because you have, would not look positively to people walking around naked.

Yeh we wouldn't want that because it would cause alot more fitnah and temptation. Have you ever noticed how in countries such as the US, the rate of rapes is higher then countries where women dress up modestly. The reason for this is because women do not show their bodies. This doesn't cause the temptation for men in the first place hence the lower rate. Something that also decreases the amount of rapists is the fact that in Muslim countries, rape is a major sin and the penalty for it is death. In countries in America or even in the UK the penalty for rape is only a few years in jail.

Let's turn a blind eye to the children physically abused by African Adults due to suspected demon posession, afterall it is their culture and thus they should be free to exercise it......... Surely your position is madness

root, the first Muezzin of the Prophet (salalahu alai hi wasalam) was a black man. Abu Bakr (ra) set him free even though they were a arab. In Islam a Muslim should help free slaves and Islam does not allow Muslims to have slaves in the 1st place. At

the time when Islam was freeing slaves the Europeans and Americans were still taking slaves away from their homelands in slave ships and forcing them to work for them. This carried on even in the 1800s whereas Islam had stopped this 1400 years ago.

If our position is 'madness' I really dont understand how you would feel if Allah (swt) forbid but if someone from your family got raped how you would feel - the person being in jail just for a few years and coming back could attack another innocent girl again and this could change her for life.

Islam is democracy and Allah (swt) created the world and the people inside of it. They know how the people react to diferent situations, and Islam (the word of Allah (swt)) was given to us to protect us. And if you follow what Allah (swt) says insh Allah you will be protected.

 

[Muhammad]

I would like to remind members about two things:

1. Root is not a Muslim and therefore we must understand that he is coming from a different perspective to the discussion.

2. While we are expressing our opinions, we should be careful about generalising and categorising a large group of people due to the actions of a few. A few 'Muslim' leaders might express opinions that we find unacceptable, but it is not right to say things about "most Muslim leaders" based on this.

Btw, there are already discussions on Niqab and Hijab in other parts of the forum, so please post there if you wish to discuss the issue in depth.

Jazakallahu Khayr,

 

[idris patel]

Assalamo alaikum

Every good and bad is from Allah (SWT) - our sustainer, our creator and our protector. The hijab is a muslim women's identity and the fact that a 'so- called'- muslim has urged our sisters to remove it, is a disgrace.

Our faith is true and we should be proud to be muslims. Obviously, the current state of affairs does not represent Islam and the beautiful teachings of our beloved prophet Muhammad Mustafa (SAW) and therefore we should not fear anyone but Allah.

In these testing times, we should be steadfast on our faith, remember Allah (SWT) abundantly and engage ourselves in intense invocation.

My humble request to my fellow muslim brothers and sisters is that engage yourselves in greater worship of the one almight Allah (SWT).

 

[Muezzin]

In the aftermath of the London bombings, the Dean of the Islamic College urged all Muslims, especially women, to be extra vigilant. He said women should remove their veils as a precaution, since his organization has “received a number of threats on a daily basis. British police, across the country, are being deployed to protect Muslim institutions and the public.” Accordingly, Badawi said, “I have advised women not to wear the veil because it might harm them. A Muslim woman should not wear her veil is she has sufficient reason to believe it may endanger her safety.” He noted that, according to Islam, “clothes are for protection and are not to harm the individual.”

Just clarifying (again) - he never said 'Hijab' or 'headscarf'. He said 'veil', which to me suggests the niqaab; the covering of the face. I think that the author of the article misinterpreted Badawi's remarks. If he had meant to say hijab, surely he would have done. If he thought an English listener would not understand this term, he would have said headscarf.

Can we just let this non-issue go now? Even if he is saying take off your hijab (which I seriously doubt), no one says you have to listen to the guy.

 

[root]

To AQIB.......

All qoutes by Aqib.....

OK root to begin with Islam doesn't encourage the male and the female sex to have a conversation with each other just for the fun of it. If a women needs to buy something from a shop or store the shop keeper doesn't need to look at her face expression to see what she has in her hand/what she wants to buy, she simply buys the product, leaves the store and goes back to her home or friends.

I disagree. given your very uttermost basic assesment. Let us say she bought a pint of milk, and the serving person stated "£1.97 please". One would notice "Surprise" in her face to know something is not right. However, your analogy is quite poor since it would appear thatt women don't have much freedom as far as your concerned for what about going out with friends, work, college hobbies everything that involves "having a life"!!

There she doesn't have to cover her face, she can take the hijab off as long as their are only mehram men there. (mehram - men who cannot get married to her eg. her father, son, grandad, stepson etc.) She can take her hijab off in front of them but she should still remain modest.

Nothing against what you say here, however please note I think the Hijab is a nice thing for Muslim women and my points are only valid to full facial coverage.

You ever noticed how in all these movies when a gurl or guy look at each other they say things such as 'love at first sight.' Now imagine if a women wore a niqaab over her face, could that actually happen? would a guy look at the gurl and go 'i'm in luv' or would he look away cz he believes the gurl'z not worth looking at. That is what happens when most men look at niqaabis and hence the lust doesn't even start off becz he looks away right at the beginning.

Movies! They are not real. Surely we don't take movies literally!!!!!

Again, look at my post and the link. facial awareness creates trust & not lust!!!!!

Yeh we wouldn't want that because it would cause alot more fitnah and temptation.

So you don't mind objecting to other peoples cultures and restricting their practices. A little hypocriticle of you would you not agree.

Have you ever noticed how in countries such as the US, the rate of rapes is higher then countries where women dress up modestly. The reason for this is because women do not show their bodies. This doesn't cause the temptation for men in the first place hence the lower rate. Something that also decreases the amount of rapists is the fact that in Muslim countries,

Now you are just having a luagh. Firstly, care to post the rape statistics for Pakistan & Iran! Before you even bother, most "Muslim" countries don't officially record rape statistics so we don't actually know the numbers. Other facts you ignorantly failed to mention are:

1. In Islamic countries most rapist are charged with adultry not rape.
2. In most Islamic countries you cannot be convicted for raping your wife
3. In most Islamic countries both rape and sexual offences are not recorded from a central location and thus statistical data is not available (How convenient.)

Rape, is not even in the same league within Muslim countries as the west. Here is the Pakistani Rule of law:

The Offence of Zina (Enforcement Of Hudood) Ordinance, 1979.
Ordinance No. VII of 1979
February 9th, 1979

An Ordinance to bring in conformity with the injunctions of Islam the law relating to the Offence of Zina.

WHEREAS it is necessary to modify the existing law relating to zina so as to bring it in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

AND WHEREAS the President is satisfied that circumstances exist which render it necessary to take immediate action;

Now, THEREFORE, in pursuance of the Proclamation of the fifth day of July 1977, read with the Laws (Continuance in Force), Order, 1977 (C.M.L.A. Order No. l of 1977), and in exercise of all powers enabling him in that behalf, the President is pleased to make and promulgate the following Ordinance:-
Chapter I
PRELIMINARY
1. Short title, extent and commencement

this is essentially law of Pakistan, I did not post it all because it is large. However I will post Section 8:

8. Proof of zina or zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd.
Proof of zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd shall be in one of the following forms, namely:-
(a) the accused makes before a Court of competent jurisdiction a confession of the commission of the offence; or
(b) at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood, that they are truthful persons and abstain from major sins (kabair), give evidence as eye-widnesses of the act of penetration necessary to the offence:

Provided that, if the accused is a non-Muslim, the eye-witnesses may be non-Muslims.

So unless the accuser confesses, or 4 "Muslim" witnesses witness the actual "Penetration" you ain't got a hope of securing a rape conviction.

Your stats are deception in the highest order!!!!!!!!

rape is a major sin and the penalty for it is death. In countries in America or even in the UK the penalty for rape is only a few years in jail.

Members of the E.U are not allowed to have a death penalty. I support this since I don't want innocent people being killed. Bottom line is you can free an innocent man from jail and he may try to get a life back. You cannot bring back the DEAD!

root, the first Muezzin of the Prophet (salalahu alai hi wasalam) was a black man. Abu Bakr (ra) set him free even though they were a arab. In Islam a Muslim should help free slaves and Islam does not allow Muslims to have slaves in the 1st place.

And quite right too. However, I stayed a significant time in Pakistan and able to compare between UK and Pakistan. Yes slavery is abomnable in any form, however in all sense and purpose "Slavery" is but another word. Servents were always very uncomfortable on my lips whilst in Pakistan.... And I was on no package holiday I can tell you, I experienced the real deal of Life in Pakistan (Love the people, love the culture totally hate the corruption)

the time when Islam was freeing slaves the Europeans and Americans were still taking slaves away from their homelands in slave ships and forcing them to work for them. This carried on even in the 1800s whereas Islam had stopped this 1400 years ago.

hhmm, 605 years ago it ended. get over it please. All the perpetrators associated with slavery are long time DEAD!!! Go dig up the bones and punish them if u will, or beleive your God sent them to hell (and I hope so) but stop living in the past for all our sakes.

If our position is 'madness' I really dont understand how you would feel if Allah (swt) forbid but if someone from your family got raped how you would feel - the person being in jail just for a few years and coming back could attack another innocent girl again and this could change her for life.

Sex offenders register anyone! Most rapes are not brutal random strangers. You are more likely to be knocked down and killed by a car than raped.

Islam is democracy and Allah (swt) created the world and the people inside of it. They know how the people react to diferent situations, and Islam (the word of Allah (swt)) was given to us to protect us. And if you follow what Allah (swt) says insh Allah you will be protected

I respect islam, so respect the democracy of the West. and stop bitching about how perfect your laws are, for they are not. For better or for worse, the west is what the west is. And ultimately I don't see Pakistan's and Iran's imigration being flooded by the West.

I ain't debating this, I was just angry at how quickly you peddled your misconceptions. I will state again my point is only "I think muslim women look lovely and part of the British culture with an Hijab, however. Covering of the face is not warmly welcomed by British people as much as a culture of walking down the street naked is not welcomed in both our cultures. I take my hat off to the Muslim suggesting uncovering of face. we want you to be Muslim, we want pakistani-british people. Both sides have to give a little to gain a lot

Thanks

Root

Regards

root

 

[NooralHaya]

as salaamu alaikum

sister shukri... no where did i say that NIQAAB WAS OBLIGATORY, all i said that it was part of islam and not part of a culture. i also said it's a matter of one's personal understanding of the deen and reports of the prophet and companions regarding the niqaab. so i just want to make sure that no one thinks im runnin around here saying NIQAAB IS FARD, but rather, it is something that's part of the deen, so whether it is fard, mustahab, wajib, sunnah, i will support it inshaAllah.


"Imam Shafi, Malik and Hanbal hold the view that niqaab (covering the face and the hands completely with only a small area for the eyes to see) as being compulsory (fard). Imam Abu Hanifa says that niqaab is Wajib and the face and hands can be exposed provided that there is not fear of desire if one looks at the female face, otherwise if there is the slightest chance of desire developing in the looker (the meaning of desire is that the looker would see the female face and think that she is beautiful, sexual thaught is not what is meant) then exposing the face and hands is Haraam."

(This is from the fatwaa issued by Mufti Anwar Ali Adam Al Mazahiri on 13/9/99. He derived the opnions of the 4 Imaams from these sources Tafseer Ibn Katheer, Tafseer Ma'rifatul Qur'aan, Durre Muhtaar, Fatawa Shami, Al Mabsoot, Fathul Qadeer. And the opinion of Imaam Abu hanifah is a directly derived from his statements in the Famous book of hanafi Fiqh Fatwaa Shami)

[http://members.tripod.com/~ibnfarooq/niqaab.htm#4imaams]

and Allah ta'ala knows best.




i'd like to apologize to ROOT, i made the assumption you were muslim, so please forgive me for anything i said that either didnt make sense or sounded harsh =)


as salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

 

[root]

i'd like to apologize to ROOT, i made the assumption you were muslim, so please forgive me for anything i said that either didnt make sense or sounded harsh =)

Thanks for the comment. Don't worry I have sufficient thickness of skin

 

[Bittersteel]

Root you were wrong.You mixed adultery with rape.

Originally Posted in Islam online and Got this from Why Islam forums

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.



All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.



Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to get themselves well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam as well as all aspects of life.

In Islam, we are not allowed to tarnish the honor of anyone. One is required to produce four witnesses when making an allegation of adultery against another person; otherwise, one will be guilty of slandering.

A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is NOT required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:


If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.muslims.ca

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503548970


http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=2681

 

[root]

Root you were wrong.You mixed adultery with rape.

Exscuse me, what do you mean exactly!

Do you mean Islam Online dictates Pakistan Law making framework. Or do you mean I was wrong about the majority of rape cases not being rape but adultry, and which part of my post do you feel was wrong

Regards

Root

 

[Bittersteel]

Made a mistake sorry I thought you were talking about the Islamic law.Apologies.

Weren't those rapists later arrested?( I am talking about the recent rape case)

 

[sundus]

kinda sad who they are calling "leaders" these days. Why are so many muslims walking around afraid of the kufar and not ALlah? they are more concerned about what the kufar think of them and less concerned with obeying the One that created them and being worried about what He, aza wa jal, thinks of them. I just dont get it. The ummah really needs help. And when this so- called "Muslim leader" told women to remove their veil was he talking about the hijab or the niqab b/c sometimes the terms are used as synonyms? Either way I dont think muslims should change anything about ourselves. Allah tells us in the Quran that that they [kuffar] wish that you would compromise in your religion so that they might compromise with you. And He subhana wa ta 'ala also tells us that they [kuffar] will never be happy with us until we are like them. But in that case [if we become like them] we would surely be the losers in dunya and in akhira. The command for the hijab is in the Quran...mubeen...plain and simple. halas...no compromise.

 

[Halima]

Salaam.

It's their ideology we should attack and not themselves because not all muslim leaders are the same. they are all different.

 

[root]

I heard on the news the other day where the news presenter put it to a Muslim that Islam lacks a central voice such as the Pope with catholism. So when it comes to a single islamic point or understanding their is not one clear decisive interpretation on a matter pertaining to Islam!

 

[NooralHaya]

thats with every faith though, hence all the different sects. in no matter with a group of people come to the same conclusion

 

[TEH]

Hence the necessity of a khalifah...

 

[Muezzin]

Indeed.

Sisters, seriously, if you think this guy is saying remove your hijab (which I still think he isn't), then feel free to ignore him if you so choose.

All this whinging about what I think might be a misinterpretation is just getting annoying now.

 

[TEH]

The Muezzin Has Spoken...

:d

 

[Muezzin]

The Muezzin Has Spoken...

:d

I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the world

Having read sundus' post though, I have to agree with the mentality of no compromises.

 

[root]

Having read sundus' post though, I have to agree with the mentality of no compromises.

I am just happy that the West did not come to the same conclusion as you!!

 

[Muezzin]

Touche, root.

But I was just referring to the issue of the hijab. Muslim women shouldn't have to compromise with their headscarves. The veil is a different, more complex matter.

So I guess instead of touche, I should be saying 'enguarde'