undisputed miracles of the Holy Quraan

[tarek samy]

i see you supply no evidence of what you say your way of writing is so mysterious you dont go to the point but you spin times and times again . you say unbalanced words how you compare your discussion in religion to discussion about britany spears ? yes you must read QURAAN before you discuss it unless you do you will copletely biased

i seek all believers in the miracles of QURAAN to say SUBHANALLAH
say it from all of your hearts and wipe out any illusions

 

[Najm]

Re: UNDISPUTED miracles of the Holy Quraan

Peace

"In the 21st Century, the term "flat-earther" is used to describe someone who is spectacularly - and seemingly wilfully - ignorant. But there is a group of people who claim they believe the planet really is flat."

...Source...

Maybe its flat for some people here too, woops i meant "flat-earther" :rollseyes

Peace.

 

[BlackMamba]

Zarathustra I'm not just trying to attack your background because quite frankly I know nothing about you. But, you cannot just come on an Islamic forum and disrespect the Quran, a book which has been read, memorized, and analyzed by billions of people for the past 1430 years all without even reading the Quran. I'm sorry but it just does not work like that.
And just a question to you and other atheist/agnostics on the forum. What is it that brings you to this Islamic forum and makes you discuss religion, something that you reject. Like if I was without a relgion and certaiN about disbelief theN I would NEVER waste my time discussing it I'd be out being free doing all haram things.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Maurice Bucaille did.


Here you go.
http://www.islamicbulletin.org/newsletters/issue_6/embraced.aspx


Interesting to note his reasons for not openly professing his belife. THis is most proabably the same case with Moore. THey dont want their reputation to be lost.

From Wikipedia:
Criticism has been made both of Bucaille's book in particular and Bucailleism in general. Theoretical physicist Parvez Hoodbhoy of Pakistan identifies the problem with such claims to ownership is that they lack an explanation for why quantum mechanics, molecular genetics, etc., had to await discovery elsewhere. Nor is any kind of testable prediction ever made. No reason is offered as to why antibiotics, aspirin, steam engines, electricity, aircraft, or computers were not first invented by Muslims. But even to ask such questions is considered offensive.

 

[Hamayun]

ZarathustraDK if you haven't got anything sensible to say then please refrain from spamming the threads with your ignorant and un-educated banter.

So far I haven't seen a single mature and educated post from you. Take your crusade somewhere else please.

 

[ZarathustraDK]

ZarathustraDK if you haven't got anything sensible to say then please refrain from spamming the threads with your ignorant and un-educated banter.

So far I haven't seen a single mature and educated post from you. Take your crusade somewhere else please.

Sensible? Sensible?! All I've been doing is saying sensible things that are perfectly in tune with logic. I've received nothing but appeals to emotion in return. I truly get that you guys adore the Quran, really, I get it, but that is a love one has to overlook when discussing anything objectively, otherwise one is biased. To me, the Quran is just another book, it's not something I hate or resent. Age doesn't matter. Amount of people following it doesn't matter.
I have yet to see any proof that the Quran is anything more than a heartwarming fiction. I shouldn't be the one finding the proof that your holybook and your claims are true, you should. Yes I employ skepticism as a rule, the same skepticism that keeps me from being run over by cars in the street, and not eating food that I have doubts about whether it's properly cooked or not. You are telling me to disregard those instincts and throw myself before a god unquestioningly, without even demanding proof for its existence?! You call that "sensible"?

Now, if I were to call you "un-educated", your statements "ignorant banter", accuse you of immaturity and crusading, would you take offense? I think you'd think such accusations merit nothing but pity when unfounded. So please stop attacking my background, it's pitiful.

 

[ZarathustraDK]

Zarathustra I'm not just trying to attack your background because quite frankly I know nothing about you. But, you cannot just come on an Islamic forum and disrespect the Quran, a book which has been read, memorized, and analyzed by billions of people for the past 1430 years all without even reading the Quran. I'm sorry but it just does not work like that.

I don't see myself as disrespecting the Quran. It's just a book to me like any other book. I respect that you like the Quran, you have every right to do so. However, we're not discussing your right to love stuff, we're talking about supposed miracles claimed to exist. Miracles that, if true, also has an impact on my reality.

I know the argumentation may piss you off, but trust me when I say it is not my intention. I simply think that the question of the existence of an omni-potent god is too important to hampered by "respectfullness" and overtly avoiding certain words and questions because it might set off some people. I mean, it's like...the most fundamental question of the whole universe, and people seem to care more about making "yo momma"-insults.

And just a question to you and other atheist/agnostics on the forum. What is it that brings you to this Islamic forum and makes you discuss religion, something that you reject. Like if I was without a relgion and certaiN about disbelief theN I would NEVER waste my time discussing it I'd be out being free doing all haram things.

It's no fun to discuss anything if everyone agrees with you.

 

[Hamayun]

You are telling me to disregard those instincts and throw myself before a god unquestioningly, without even demanding proof for its existence?! You call that "sensible"?

I am not telling you to do anything :?

I did not come looking for you...

I did not impose my opinions on you...

I did not expect you to share the same faith or ideology as me...


You on the other hand...

You have come to an Islamic forum...

You are hurling your opinions at people...

You are trying to impose your logic and way of thinking on Muslims on a Muslim forum.

Now the question arises... why are you really here?

Bored? Thought you could enlighten the Gullible and primitive Muslims? Why are you here really?

 

[Tony]

ZarathustraDK, Peace. I get why your here, but to many who beleive in Allahs oneness we dont need any logical explanations, tere are plenty, but seriouslly when you have had a prayer answered and what you get in your heart once accepted Islam, there really is no way we can deny Him. Think about it, we wouldnt all follow Islam if we had tried it and found it empty. For those of us who are really Muslim and fulfill our covenant we know without needing logic. It is a way where the highest in human esteem and the lowest are equal in the eyes of Allah, the Qur'an can be understood b all intellectual students and uneducared people alike. I wish you peaece but I think you are striving for a format or logic that you may never find. For a truly logical discuccion I strongly suggest you go and talk to a scholar within a mosque and you may find your answers.I would like to be able to say whatever it is that would make you see that what we beleive is truth, but I cannott, and for my own part I have proof. Please go and discuss at a mosque, they will welcome you I am sure. I think its highly commendable that you search for truth, but I also think that truth can be so subtle it is easy to miss. I wish you peace and respect.

 

[ZarathustraDK]

I am not telling you to do anything :?

You are telling me to stop using logic in my attempts to establish common ground with you. If I can't do that, then what can I do?

I did not impose my opinions on you...

Maybe not, you just think I'm an immature ignoramus full of un-educated banter.

I did not expect you to share the same faith or ideology as me...

Neither did I. I did, however, expect a certain amount of adherence to logic, as it is the basis of language and discourse. Is it impossible for us to have meaningful discourse? No, you can read my words and understand them, you simply don't like them.

You on the other hand...

You have come to an Islamic forum...

Yes, I have.

You are hurling your opinions at people...

Ehh no, I am not. Everything I've said I'm ready to explain why is so in an exact and non-ambiguous manner, visible and self-evident to all, also known as proof. I did not go on a rampage demanding respect, demanding university-degrees, and generally avoid answering tough questions whenever it suits me.

You are trying to impose your logic and way of thinking on Muslims on a Muslim forum.

Yet you have no problems communicating with me in a language that is logically build up by grammar and sentences that carry a certain meaning. Logic is not a choice or something that is imposed, it simply is. 1+1=2, not because I want to impose it someone, it just works that way self-evidently. Fallacies are nothing but an extention of that, just as simple, it's not a matter whether I want to believe they're right and wrong, they simply are, sometimes to my own detriment. It's not like I regard you as logic-kuffirs or something like that

Now the question arises... why are you really here?

Bored? Thought you could enlighten the Gullible and primitive Muslims? Why are you here really?

What's with the paranoia? I just enjoy a good religion-discussion every once in a while. It's that whole "proof which is not proof"-thing I'm trying to understand, how it can be so. But if it'd make you feel any better then pretend I'm a secret service-agent looking for shoes :statisfie Seriously, I don't give a **** about politics, Bush, terrorists, Ayaan, hijabs or the KKK when discussing a certain topic (unless, of course, they themselves are the topic), I would consider it "haram" to let my heart influence my mind in such a way when discussing on a forum because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

 

[Tony]

Look people this is not a thread dedicated to affording attention to someone is absolutely against beleif. Let it go now. Allah knows best and as Muslims that is enough. Peace

 

[Hamayun]

You are telling me to stop using logic in my attempts to establish common ground with you. If I can't do that, then what can I do?

As mentioned before I never asked you to stop/start using logic or anything of the sort. Feel free to use whatever logic you fancy. Good for you I say...

Common grounds?? Doesn't really bother me whether you do or don't. I am not looking for common grounds.

Quran 109:3 to 109:6:
(3) And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) To you be your Way, and to me mine. (6)

Neither did I. I did, however, expect a certain amount of adherence to logic, as it is the basis of language and discourse. Is it impossible for us to have meaningful discourse? No, you can read my words and understand them, you simply don't like them.

I don't dislike your words... I just dont share the same "logic". After all what is logical to you is not necessarily logical to all living creatures. There are many murders and crimes commtted everyday because it seems logical to those people. Thanks but no thanks for the lesson on logic.

Yes, I have.

Great.

Ehh no, I am not. Everything I've said I'm ready to explain why is so in an exact and non-ambiguous manner, visible and self-evident to all, also known as proof. I did not go on a rampage demanding respect, demanding university-degrees, and generally avoid answering tough questions whenever it suits me.

There is nothing you can explain that hasn't already been repeated millions of times over the last few centuries. I think it would be a "logical" choice to find another source of amusement.

Yet you have no problems communicating with me in a language that is logically build up by grammar and sentences that carry a certain meaning. Logic is not a choice or something that is imposed, it simply is. 1+1=2, not because I want to impose it someone, it just works that way self-evidently. Fallacies are nothing but an extention of that, just as simple, it's not a matter whether I want to believe they're right and wrong, they simply are, sometimes to my own detriment. It's not like I regard you as logic-kuffirs or something like that

Thanks. I appreciate your kindness.

What's with the paranoia? I just enjoy a good religion-discussion every once in a while. It's that whole "proof which is not proof"-thing I'm trying to understand, how it can be so. But if it'd make you feel any better then pretend I'm a secret service-agent looking for shoes :statisfie Seriously, I don't give a **** about politics, Bush, terrorists, Ayaan, hijabs or the KKK when discussing a certain topic (unless, of course, they themselves are the topic), I would consider it "haram" to let my heart influence my mind in such a way when discussing on a forum because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

The Quran is a book of guidance and not an encyclopedia. People who try to use it as an encyclopedia are diluting its credibility. Let the Quran be what it is. A book of guidance and blessing to mankind.

There is nothing that you can prove/disprove without the other person producing his "proof".

Do a search.. you will find all these questions have been asked before..

Peace

 

[ZarathustraDK]

Common grounds?? Doesn't really bother me whether you do or don't. I am not looking for common grounds.

That sort of rules out any form meaningful discussions between you and non-muslims.

I don't dislike your words... I just dont share the same "logic". After all what is logical to you is not necessarily logical to all living creatures. There are many murders and crimes commtted everyday because it seems logical to those people. Thanks but no thanks for the lesson on logic.

It may not be logical to people, that does not exempt people from logic. I may not believe in gravity, that does not mean I can fly.

The Quran is a book of guidance and not an encyclopedia. People who try to use it as an encyclopedia are diluting its credibility. Let the Quran be what it is. A book of guidance and blessing to mankind.

There is nothing that you can prove/disprove without the other person producing his "proof".

Do a search.. you will find all these questions have been asked before.

I am more intersted in figuring out exactly where chain comes off in regards to logic/islam. I mean, we can agree that 1+1=2, we can agree that we understand each others sentences, no problem. You guys use the internet (and probably also a lot of other space-age technology), so somewhere I guess you must also agree on the logic which created those things (or do you think they were divinely inspired to the people who created them?).

The chain definitely is off when logic says something nasty about Allah or muslims in general. Is it simply when logic violates the axiom (I guess you could call it) of the Quran that it's bunk? So that you, from my point of view, do a big switcharoo of logic and Allah?

If so, then I hope you can see why this is "cheating" the rest of the world in any practical and mundane matters (politics for instance) relating to islam; because it'd mean that you can use logic and "proper" argumentation against people not of your belief to further a given goal, yet declare yourself exempt from the same arguments/reasoning when used against you because it violates the sanctity of the Quran which permeates every aspect of your life.

That's like playing a soccer-match where one team grants itself the right to pick up the ball with their hands without penalty.

 

[Hamayun]

Look bro. Your opninions are already formed and mind made up. I do enjoy a good discussion with people who actually listen.

Sorry but you are not here to listen... only here to talk and confirm your opinions.

Good luck with whatever you want to acheive but I would rather converse with people who are honestly here to learn about Islam.

You wanna talk about Islam? Read the Quran.... then when you find your so called "illogical" verses post them up and ask for explanations.

I don't do red herrings...

 

[tarek samy]

SUBHANALLAH

THE more i hear , the more i see the more i feel the more i think the more i realize.

the more i pray the more i thank ALLAH for making me MUslim the more i feel enslaved to this great religion .

 

[ZarathustraDK]

Look bro. Your opninions are already formed and mind made up. I do enjoy a good discussion with people who actually listen.

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

It is not I whose opinions are already made up.

But let me guess, I've either:

a) Quoted those verses out of context.
b) Need to learn arabic in order to get the "true" message.
c) You've got some hadiths to counter it with (and vice versa if I use hadiths).

As for the illogical verses, lets compare these two for instance:

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69

and then :

Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72

I'm sure the christians would like to know where they go after they die.

 

[tarek samy]

if you do want to know the answer to your questions you are welcome although this is not our topic

as for fighting (Jihad) it is a must for the MUSLIMS but for certain reasons we fight for two purposes :

first : to defend ourselves when we are attacked or invaded
second : to spread the message of islam
however we dont force any one to embrace islam we just spread the message and everybody can choose .
morever we are ordered not to kill children women or elderly not to knock down any church
as for the second issue : to discuss it you should have good knowlege of Quraan as many verse have spoken about christian and jews but no contradiction in them .
christians and jews who worship ALLAh only and who believe that messiah(pbuh)is human and the messanger of allah ,those are different from the chritians who believe that messiah is god . of course QURAAN is obvious that ALLAH IS THE ONLY GOD and messiah(pbuh) is a messanger from ALLAH . any one who thinks that messiah is god is is not considerd believer

 

[wth1257]

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

It is not I whose opinions are already made up.

lol. Yes you have. That seems pretty clear

a) Quoted those verses out of context.

Well. Out of a five hundred book you have posted two unconnected sentences hundreds of pages apart. I'd say that is out of context. Your screen name is a knock off of a very accomplished philologist, you should have noted that

b) Need to learn arabic in order to get the "true" message.

that's probably true. Plenty of non Muslim arabists would agree with it

c) You've got some hadiths to counter it with (and vice versa if I use hadiths).

I don't believe a Hadith could be contrary to the Qur'an

As for the illogical verses, lets compare these two for instance:

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69

and then :

Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72

I'm sure the christians would like to know where they go after they die.

The first is referring to true Jews and Christians who practice islam, the latter referres to "Jews" and "Christian" who have introduced "innovations" into their pristine revelations, hence the innovative doctrines enumerated in the latter.

I think that is fairly clear independent of one being an Islamic Scholar, Arabist, or Muslim.

If that is wrong perhaps one of the Muslims here could correct me.

 

[ZarathustraDK]

Well. Out of a five hundred book you have posted two unconnected sentences hundreds of pages apart. I'd say that is out of context. Your screen name is a knock off of a very accomplished philologist, you should have noted that

My screen name is a dichotomy. It may refer to the teachings of Zarathustra, it may refer to Zarathustra in Nietzches "Thus spoke Zarathustra", who is clearly not anything of the sort. Point is, there is no middleground, either god exists or he doesn't, I wish to find out which.

I don't believe a Hadith could be contrary to the Qur'an

It hasn't stopped other muslims I've debated with from doing it, these people haven't done that yet though, so I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

The first is referring to true Jews and Christians who practice islam, the latter referres to "Jews" and "Christian" who have introduced "innovations" into their pristine revelations, hence the innovative doctrines enumerated in the latter.

Like what? It clearly says that people who believe God is the messiah, son of Mary (aka Jesus) are unbelievers. That means any christian who believe in the trinity is an unbeliever. I mean, either it's a contradiction in verses, or it's a contradiction to reality, since christians historically has always considered Jesus to be the lord, and of the same nature as god.

 

[tarek samy]

i wonder where did you get such great deal of stubbotness taht you ddont see what is clearly seen and leaves you with no common since .
what you have written all over here is not worthy replying however it is just like making loud noise . ofcourse Quraan can nevere has such clear contradiction .moreover who told you that natural christians those who contempelated MESSIAH(PBUH) consider him god
you are totally biased