Unity of muslim nation is deemed necessary now.

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TheRationalizer said:
I didn't say it would then be irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that this is all to do with natural resources and wealth rather than (as many conspiracy hypothesisers claim) about religion.
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it is all to do with religion,
we could wonder round in circles all day but this is a religious board and i had hoped the people on it would be understanding in what we are here to do.

it is not a case of the religion of the people involved in conflicts, ie the conspiracy against muslim nations etc etc.
it is a case of understanding how those people got into that situation and understanding the fear of god and building firm bases for your beliefs to stand upon...so you do not have to stand where they stood.
 
TheRationalizer said:
So the oil is a distraction from their true goal which is to destroy Islam, is that what you are claiming?
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you miss my point entirely.
the truth of the oil is subjective.

i believe in an all mighty god,
the creator of the heavens and the earth and all things in between.
what can be done to me that was not decreed, what can be done to you that was not decreed?
we have only our own actions that amount to anything, we have only our religion to point the way.
what happens after that is not our will, we have already tried to impose our will.

when a day of wholesale reconing comes, we dont cack our pants... i tried my best anyway.
god is the ultimate judge, by what means we are dealt with and by whom is subjective.

i broke my concept of good and evil that day.

if i could write in proper paragraphs that might help, probably not really lol... bullcrap is bullcrap.
 
TheRationalizer said:
I didn't say it would then be irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that this is all to do with natural resources and wealth rather than (as many conspiracy hypothesisers claim) about religion.
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Religion has something to do with it, and you don't need to follow one to acknowledge some individuals are motivated by religion.

Some Jews in Israel are waiting for their messiah and the some Christians in the US support Israel without question because they believe Prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) will become back or something along those lines.

AIPAC one of the most powerful lobbies in America, has a group called Christian United for Israel (I think that is what they are called), and pressure America to support Israel without question.

So, religion has played a role, but not a significant role.
 
Guestfellow said:
some individuals are motivated by religion.
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Oh yes, I don't doubt that at all.


Guestfellow said:
Some Jews in Israel are waiting for their messiah and the some Christians in the US support Israel without question because they believe Prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) will become back or something along those lines.
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Indeed, and some of these people are in a position of power. Just like the guy who had been appointed head of the board for environmental issues in the US who says global warming won't be a problem because God promised in the bible....scary.

And of course Islam has it's own proponents who believe things such as "The last day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews" etc. We only get about 80 years of life on this planet anyway, compared to the apparent eternal afterlife this isn't really very long to wait. I just have no idea why everyone is so keen to bring about the end of the world.

I think this is one of the rare circumstances where Pascal's wager actually works.

1: Be nice to each other and live as long as possible
No afterlife : You got as much from your life as you could.
Afterlife exists: Comparatively you waiting next to no additional time to get there.

2: Bring about the end of the world
Afterlife exists: You might get a quick path to heaven (or might be sent to hell for killing lots of people.)
No afterlife : Everyone loses

Wow, *I* used Pascal's wager :-D

Guestfellow said:
So, religion has played a role, but not a significant role.
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I suspect we may be in agreement :-)
 
Guestfellow said:
Religion has something to do with it, and you don't need to follow one to acknowledge some individuals are motivated by religion.

Some Jews in Israel are waiting for their messiah and the some Christians in the US support Israel without question because they believe Prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) will become back or something along those lines.

AIPAC one of the most powerful lobbies in America, has a group called Christian United for Israel (I think that is what they are called), and pressure America to support Israel without question.

So, religion has played a role, but not a significant role.
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i guess its what you do in the name of your god that has to be accounted for (individually)

if they do bring about the second coming of jesus AS, i dont think he will be too happy with them....emm actually
he might have been an easy going fellow peace and blessings be upon him, but his god will not be happy with many on that day.
 
TheRationalizer said:
And of course Islam has it's own proponents who believe things such as "The last day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews" etc. We only get about 80 years of life on this planet anyway, compared to the apparent eternal afterlife this isn't really very long to wait. I just have no idea why everyone is so keen to bring about the end of the world.
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No one is keen on ''end of the world.'' Some people do become hysterical and tried to predict the end of the world many times when they incorrectly analyse current affairs.

As for the Jews, Muslims believe they will accept (and others) a man known as the Dajjal (Anti-Christ), so they will be a battle. From what a scholar said, the Dajjal shall come once Muslims have stopped talking about it completely, he will be forgotten. So it will be when Muslims are most vulnerable.

I suspect we may be in agreement :-)
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Yes, I agree that currently, religion, has so far played a minor role.
 
M.I.A. said:
i guess its what you do in the name of your god that has to be accounted for (individually)

if they do bring about the second coming of jesus AS, i dont think he will be too happy with them....emm actually
he might have been an easy going fellow peace and blessings be upon him, but his god will not be happy with many on that day.
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How anyone could be happy with those who brought about the death and suffering of billions of people I do not know. I can imagine Jesus will be very annoyed with himself though that he said they could still go to heaven as long as they believe he died and came back to life ;-)
 
Guestfellow said:
No one is keen on ''end of the world.'' Some people do become hysterical and tried to predict the end of the world many times when they incorrectly analyse current affairs.

As for the Jews, Muslims believe they will accept (and others) a man known as the Dajjal (Anti-Christ), so they will be a battle. From what a scholar said, the Dajjal shall come once Muslims have stopped talking about it completely, he will be forgotten. So it will be when Muslims are most vulnerable.



Yes, I agree that currently, religion, has so far played a minor role.
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yep, a superman no less
can fly.
can ressurect the dead.
brings with him heaven and hell.
will claim to be god.

doubt anybody can miss such a man.

anyway a united ummah will be established by then although who and how many i dont know.
the hellbound, hope we dont miss them.
 
TheRationalizer said:
Not sure how people in heaven could possibly spend eternity enjoying paradise whilst people burn in fire for eternity for finite actions.
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That doesn't seem particularly rational behavior, and certainly not from people expecting to be divinely rewarded.
 
joedawun said:
Just the kind that people create for themselves and others while on Earth.
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A christian who doesn't believe in eternal hell. How interesting. Maybe you could create a thread in the comparative religion forum explaining how you decided that was the case and send me the url? I don't want to hijack this thread :-)
 
TheRationalizer said:
Not sure how people in heaven could possibly spend eternity enjoying paradise whilst people burn in fire for eternity for finite actions.
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Well its like now, people are suffering all over the world and here were are, safe, relaxed and some are having a great time.

For those who end up in hell, they have no one to blame but themselves. :/
 
Guestfellow said:
Well its like now, people are suffering all over the world and here were are, safe, relaxed and some are having a great time.
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Sure, but I send more than 5% of my monthly incomes to charity in order to build water wells, pay for education, pay for medicinal supplies, etc in order to try to help those people improve their lives. I accept I cannot help them all, but I can help some of them.

Now if there was some entity deliberately forcing them to endure pain and suffering (like fire) that would be terrible, I certainly wouldn't want a loving relationship with any conscious entity that would put someone through such an ordeal.


Guestfellow said:
For those who end up in hell, they have no one to blame but themselves. :/
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Only a crime committed for an infinite amount of time warrants a punishment that lasts for an infinite amount of time. Anything short of that is a terrible injustice. Even if you are utterly evil for 50 years of your life, that is nothing compared to the infinity of the punishment.

A quote I like is
"Infinity is a very long time, especially towards the end".

I felt compelled to reply to your statement but I really don't want to hijack this thread :-S If you want to discuss it further please start a new thread and let me know so I can comment on it.
 
TheRationalizer said:
How anyone could be happy with those who brought about the death and suffering of billions of people I do not know. I can imagine Jesus will be very annoyed with himself though that he said they could still go to heaven as long as they believe he died and came back to life ;-)
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you shouldnt worry about about those countless people who have brought suffering to countless people.
when you have to face god on the day of judgement you will only have to account for yourself and the actions you sent on people.
according to many stories i have heard we will be in such a position that we will not even be able to even think of others on that day.

as for what jesus peace and blessings be upon him said to the people, i do not even know... i know he thought of others often thats for sure, maybe i missed the point.

as for hell and heaven, nothings for sure.. but after death time becomes irrelavent, so maybe people will be let back in after a time.. how longs a piece of string.

as for who goes where, thats for god to decide and to paraphrase the quran.

on that day you will be told the truth of all that you did.

i dont even know what iv been doing all my life! thats something that puts the fear of god in me.

could go on to another line and remind you of the forgive them for they know not what they do line.. but i dont even know if its true and where its written, just something that a person hears right?
 
M.I.A. said:
as for what jesus peace and blessings be upon him said to the people, i do not even know... i know he thought of others often thats for sure, maybe i missed the point.
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It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about how many (but not all) christians believe that it is belief in Jesus alone that gets you into heaven and not your deeds - that Jesus is a kind of "Get out of hell for free" pass.

M.I.A. said:
i dont even know what iv been doing all my life! thats something that puts the fear of god in me.
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I don't think there is a single crime that anyone could commit in their finite life time which deserves an infinite punishment, it is infinitely unjust. I am sure that if there is a god and it is a just one then it will be more fair than I am, and I wouldn't punish anyone for eternity no matter what they had done. I certainly wouldn't expect an eternal punishment for something so insignificant that you can't even remember doing it :-)
 
This topic of eternal punishment has been discussed many times here. Please use the search feature to find out what has been said before. Its no use repeating the same over and over again. I am busy right now, otherwise I would have linked you to it.

If you need any 'new' clarification, then you are welcome.
 
TheRationalizer said:
It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about how many (but not all) christians believe that it is belief in Jesus alone that gets you into heaven and not your deeds - that Jesus is a kind of "Get out of hell for free" pass.



I don't think there is a single crime that anyone could commit in their finite life time which deserves an infinite punishment, it is infinitely unjust. I am sure that if there is a god and it is a just one then it will be more fair than I am, and I wouldn't punish anyone for eternity no matter what they had done. I certainly wouldn't expect an eternal punishment for something so insignificant that you can't even remember doing it :-)
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there are people in this world that are so unjust that eternal hell might be warrented, but that is only by my definition of what unjust or evil is and it is not the same thing as knowing what gods definition is.

...if i forget to think of anything at a level other than face value then evil is those that cause mischief in the land, those that oppress people and the causers of tumult(which i was unsure of so heres some web definitions)

1.
violent and noisy commotion or disturbance of a crowd or mob; uproar: The tumult reached its height during the premier's speech.
2.
a general outbreak, riot, uprising, or other disorder: The tumult moved toward the embassy.
3.
highly distressing agitation of mind or feeling; turbulent mental or emotional disturbance: His placid facade failed to conceal the tumult of his mind.
 

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