Unknown, unmentioned refugees. The Palestinians aren't the only refugees

[ManchesterFolk]

MFolk
Your source was wrong regarding Morocco. I doubt your sources on other nations, too. At least until you address the points I raised regarding Morocco.

Wait, so you claim my source is wrong regarding moracco because your source says something different? What makes your source an authority on what happned?

 

[Curaezipirid]

Alaikumassalam,

but really aren't we just taking ourselves here a little too seriously, I mean, its one thing to defend the rights of any refugee to live in their homeland, or another safer place; but surely it is another thing altogether if we find ourselves having begun to identify with the oppression of other persons

for one thing we rob them of their own realised experiences;
and for another if we are not careful the same could happen to us;
there is no point in clamouring to substantiate who has been most oppressed because oppression is not what defines being meek

wasalam

 

[Woodrow]

I am personaly having a little difficulty with the credability of the original post.

Just for example:

Syria:

The Syrian Jewish community in 1948 dated to the First Century destruction of Jerusalem, approximately 1900 year earlier. Under Islamic rule, Jews were routinely subject to cruel and inhumane treatment, including forced conversions, routine pogroms and severe commercial and personal restrictions. By early 1947, only 13,000 Jews lived in Syria; 20,000 had fled throughout the course of the previous decade, as Nazi zeal permeated the region and made their lives especially difficult. Immediately after Syria gained independence from France in 1945, vitriolic anti-Semitic propaganda was broadcast on television and radio, inciting the Arab masses to violence. In December 1947, one month after the Partition Plan's acceptance, a pogrom erupted in the Syrian town of Aleppo, torching numerous Jewish properties, including synagogues, schools, orphanages and businesses. Eyewitnesses to the violence noted Syrian firemen and police dispatched to the scene actively participated in the rioting.

I know this is just nit-picking. But the first TV networks did not appear until 1949.(source: http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_history_of_communication.htm) World wide TV especialy in the Arab world was not available until years later. In 1945 TV was simply a rich-mans toy and very limited in use. It was not a mass media or news device in 1945

This error makes me doubt that the information came from sources knowledgable of the era.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Were there not TV's during 1945 in Syria that could have picked up anti-semetic propoganda? There is no need for TV networks. All one needs is a radical cleric, a camera, and a country that has TV's to show it to.

It wasn't like they were live on the site.

 

[Obi-Wan]

MFolk,
Woodrow's point is: Your source seems to have made a historical error when it talks about TV transmissions in Syria 1945. So how much of an authority can it be?

Wait, so you claim my source is wrong regarding moracco because your source says something different? What makes your source an authority on what happned?

Again, from Rick Gold:
stats on emigration of Jews from Morocco

Year Number
1948/49 18,000
1950 4,980
1951 7,770
1952 5,031
1953 2,996
1954 8,171
1955 24,994
1956 36,301
1957 8,578
1958 1,803
1959 3,325
1960 4,108
1961 11,476
1962 35,748
1963 36,874

Total 210,347


Let's compare that with what can be found on this page from the Jewish Agency:

Independent Israel - Aliyah and Absorption

-- Between 1955 and 1957, more than 70,000 Moroccan Jews arrived.

-- After the 1958-1960 regression, immigration swelled again from 1961-1964, when a total of 215,056 immigrants arrived. More than 80,000 Jewish immigrants came from Morocco and some 80,000 from Rumania. From 1965 to 1967 there was a decline in the rate of aliyah.

Which matches with the stats from Rick Gold's Website. That's one reason to believe the source.


Israel actively encourages Jews to "return" to Israel -- from all over the world. Again from the Jewish Agency:

Timeline of Jewish History

1949-51. MASS IMMIGRATION FROM THE ARAB WORLD.

One of the first results of independence was the decision to encourage mass Aliyah. it was needed from a practical point of view - the young state had only a very small population - and from an ideological point of view, the struggle against the British had been carried out in the name of the need for unlimited immigration. Following independence Jews started to pour in from all over the wrld. Many hundreds of thousands came from destroyed Jewish Eu and the British refugee Camps, and hundreds of thousands of others would come from the Jewish communities in the Arab world. Large scale operations brought in huge numbers of Jews from the Arab countries. Primary among these operations were Operation Magic Carpet to bring the Jews of Yemen and Operation Ezra and Nehemiah which brought more than a hundred thousand Jews from Iraq.

"...encourage mass Aliyah", [...] "from an ideological point of view, the struggle against the British had been carried out in the name of the need for unlimited immigration"

The whole point of Israel was immigration. Israel encouraged and organised mass emigration from Iraq and Yemen and other countries.


Now,
What does your source say on Morocco, MFolk?

Morocco
In 1948, there were about 350,000 Jews living in Morocco, a community with ancient roots going back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple (586 BCE). In June 1948, pogromists massacred 39 Jews in the town of Djerada and 4 more in Oujda. Over 50,000 Jews fled Morocco in terror. During the 1950s, there was violence against Jews in Oujda, Rabat, and Casablanca. Most of Moroccan Jewry emigrated during the years to follow.

It says (or implies very strongly) that 50,000 Jews fled Morocco, in terror, in June 1948 after Djerada and Oujda.

But only 18,000 Jews left in 1948/9 according to Rick Gold.The Jewish agency says, here, that 45,400 left Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria in 1948-51.


So your source is confrimed as a liar, MFolk. What other data have they misrepresented or made up?

And I have given data which backs up Rick Gold from the Jewish Agency, which worked (and still works) in encouraging and facilitating immigration into Israel.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

You treat your source as if it is compleltly fact.

Yours might very well be the liar.

 

[Curaezipirid]

Alaikumassalam

now that is truly a weird statment:

treat your source as though it is complete fact
because your source could be a lie



Now in my culture we rarely call a lie a lie, but only because those who tell the truth need not be told that a lie is a lie; while those who lie are less difficult if they are not informed that those whom speak true know that they lie. We are all expected to eventually confess to any lie, and in fact all are so dependent upon such that we fear delaying ourselves from confessing of lying.

Yet in my culture it is also that we NEVER TRUST ANY SOURCE WITHOUT UNEQUIVOCAL EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT IS OBTAINED INDEPENDENTLY OF THE SOURCE

Truly none of us are in truth ever even making any accusation against any person by only withholding belief until we obtain such evidence.

wasalam

 

[Obi-Wan]

MFolk,
I went to the trouble of checking (and quoting, above) the Jewish Agency -- which is very, very pro-Israel. Perhaps you should check out their mission statement. And maybe their history ("de facto government of (Israel)" etc).

The high/low points they give for immigration match with Rick Gold's. They say that Aliyah (immigration) was encouraged. Their numbers for 1948-51 disagree with your source.

Why would they lie about these things? If they were going to lie, surely it would be towards your side of the argument.

I don't know what more I can do.
Of course I believe my sources -- I wouldn't use them otherwise. I've tried giving you a very pro-Israel source. But that doesn't seem to be enough.

btw,
Have you given us the site from which you copied and pasted your opening post? I would like to know.

Googling a few phrases turns up too many options.