i said the same thing earlier
US and the Armenian question...
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i said the same thing earlier
gen·o·cide –noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
japan - that was a war with a country, not a genocide, there was no systematic extermination of anyone
indians - the US was not the US, it was america and was under the control and orders of the British, so perhaps you would like to blame that on them
iraqis - 2,000,000?!?! This # gets more proposterous with every person that writes it, perhaps you should look at the dictator Saddam who killed many more than before the US arrived, and dont bother blaming the sanctions since Saddam single handedly declined humanitarian aid provided by the US and the UN
afghans - no one is there to exterminate the afghan people just a terrorist group called the Taliban
I dont think being two faced has anything to do with this issue (and dont get me wrong, I dont see any reason to make this tragedy an issue today, since everyone does have their own ugly past) However when looking at the armenian incident (I use that word since it is disputed) I have to say that it appears to be a genocide. A select group of people specifically based on their cultural group was systematically murdered in mass numbers. Is it not a genocide if the number isnt 500,001? If so what is the magic number to you that makes a genocide? Take a look at the definition and then take a look at the records as you mentioned above and I think it is fairly easy to see that it was in fact a genocide, no amount of denial or manipulation of numbers or facts will change that, whether it was 1 or 2 million or 500,000, either way it is a tragedy and it should be recognized as such. With that said, Turkey is no longer the Ottoman Empire any more than the US is a British colony so lets just leave the good people of Turkey alone and stop dragging the history of their land up when it is absolutely irrelevant to anything that is going on in the world today.
democrats are idiots
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mg:
sevgi
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just adding to all below...
yes democrats are idiots...and as one of u said below, the US involvement is surely a strike in the election year...thats evident to all.
back to genocide tho...ur definition MTAFFI is a vague one.but yes, thats what it is when u are looking at it as merely a term.
genocide lies wholly on intent.purpertrator intention...as yigiter said..we killed lots a people..but the intentions werent genocide.
i could go on for days abt the Armenian conflict, but we have to understand that both sides have valid arguments.very valid....armenians take it as a massive hate crime.turks say we were deporting em and they died from illness and hunger including our turks...this is all part of war. then the armenians say that the turks took longer and harder routes during the deportations, the turks say thats just stupid and that they shud prove it...then they cant prove it...then they start from the top again.
how does one prove intent?
and its none of any other countries business.why bring it up?
whos gna pay for what? is it fair that the turkey today, pays for the illicit doings of the ottoman state and its skewed jon turks?
as i said..the armenian conflict is so bloody complex..noone knows what to make of it.
i personally dnt believe the intent was genocide.i do believe that the intent was to harm them and get them outta the country...
it all comes down to politics...the turks say "u started it"...the armenians say "u ended it"..
they are both very faulty...they shud jst get over it...
yes democrats are idiots...and as one of u said below, the US involvement is surely a strike in the election year...thats evident to all.
back to genocide tho...ur definition MTAFFI is a vague one.but yes, thats what it is when u are looking at it as merely a term.
genocide lies wholly on intent.purpertrator intention...as yigiter said..we killed lots a people..but the intentions werent genocide.
i could go on for days abt the Armenian conflict, but we have to understand that both sides have valid arguments.very valid....armenians take it as a massive hate crime.turks say we were deporting em and they died from illness and hunger including our turks...this is all part of war. then the armenians say that the turks took longer and harder routes during the deportations, the turks say thats just stupid and that they shud prove it...then they cant prove it...then they start from the top again.
how does one prove intent?
and its none of any other countries business.why bring it up?
whos gna pay for what? is it fair that the turkey today, pays for the illicit doings of the ottoman state and its skewed jon turks?
as i said..the armenian conflict is so bloody complex..noone knows what to make of it.
i personally dnt believe the intent was genocide.i do believe that the intent was to harm them and get them outta the country...
it all comes down to politics...the turks say "u started it"...the armenians say "u ended it"..
they are both very faulty...they shud jst get over it...
My take on this: Politicians should leave this up to the historians to decide!
But thank God the US congress is just debating this matter. In France they actually made it a crime to deny the Armenian genocide. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm)
IMHO that is 100x worse! Politicians making laws which historical interpretation is right, this absolutely disgusts me!
But thank God the US congress is just debating this matter. In France they actually made it a crime to deny the Armenian genocide. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm)
IMHO that is 100x worse! Politicians making laws which historical interpretation is right, this absolutely disgusts me!
sevgi
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yes...we've established that...and im glad that u also see this.
as i said earlier...these political involvements are all stunts...the public eye is one which is easily skewed.individuals think something...but for some reason the collective mind seems to think something else...
its weird.
Well, I'm not so sure. Its not all simply political opportunism, although it might play a part. There are a lot of people who are just as convinced that there was a genocide and that its an outrage that it never was recognized. And they feel such political announcements are necessary to achieve somekind of justice and to pressure Turkey into accepting their historical responsibility. I simply don't know, I'm not knowledgeable about what happened then. But the simple fact is that a lot of people who are knowledgeable are convinced genocide took place. And there are also a lot who disagree with this. So I'm on the fence on this matter.
Nevertheless, I think it's a mistake to think those on the other side have shady motives and are just pulling 'political stunts'.
24 August 1939, one week before the beggining of the War World II, Hitler spoke at the german Headquarter- " I don't care what the Western Civilization will say about it. My Dead Skulls (german troops) will attack Poles and destroy this nation. Be sure and calm.Does anyone now remember yet about the massacre of Armenians?"
sevgi
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yigiter187
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in a war the country A KİLLED 5.000.000 ıraqıs
in a genocide the country B killed 500.000 ıraqıs.....which one is genocide,which one is wilder,inhumane?
i dont think that it is a systematic extermination of Iraqis, and if anything the two sectarian groups are committing genocide against one another, but the US did not and is not in Iraq to kill all Iraqis or exterminate any political, religious, racial, or ethnic group, in fact the only reason the US is still in Iraq is to help try to preserve life and help to try and drive those who wish to take life out of Iraq or to put them to death
but what does the US's problems in Iraq have to do with the tragedy that the Armenians incurred? Do you believe that bringing attention the faults of other will make the faults of the Ottoman Empire any better? If so you are no better than the US politicians who are doing the same for their political agendas
wilberhum
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Turkey moves to change speech law
The Turkish government says it will change a controversial law restricting freedom of expression.
Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin said a new bill would be put before the Turkish parliament in the coming days.
The law, known as Article 301, bans perceived insults to Turkish identity or the country's institutions.
It has often been invoked by nationalists against those who argue the Ottoman empire committed genocide against Armenians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7081747.stm
The Turkish government says it will change a controversial law restricting freedom of expression.
Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin said a new bill would be put before the Turkish parliament in the coming days.
The law, known as Article 301, bans perceived insults to Turkish identity or the country's institutions.
It has often been invoked by nationalists against those who argue the Ottoman empire committed genocide against Armenians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7081747.stm
yigiter187
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ottomans did nothing to armenians..ottomans relieved them so much..but they betrayed us with russia...although they did this to us,ottomans didnt kill them..u know- indeed ppl recognising so-called arm.genocide know nothing about the issue..
was it ever proven that they aided the Russians? Were 250 not collected and executed for their alleged involvment? Did the entire 2.5 million armenians involved with the Russians? Do you think it was necessary to deprive the armenians of food and water, and rape the women on a regular basis? I seriously doubt it, perhaps you should research the issue a bit more... I hope these statements do not offend you and I would like to continue this conversation with you in a polite and mature fashion, so please answer these questions and please inform me of your view as well as I am very interested in hearing it since according you your little profile thingy you are from Turkey
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(Also please try to keep in mind that as far as US congress goes and dragging this issue up during this time, I think it is not only stupid and irrelevant but I also can understand your and your countries frustration, and I apologize for that.)