Veil related posts and threads combined

[*Hana*]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?

HELLO??? She said she takes it OFF while teaching so please dont bring that *It will effect the children education*. She simply wears it in front of men colleagues, why wasnt this a big deal before? Why did they bring the issue up with her now?.

Salam Alaikum sister:

People were commenting on the FIRST report of this incident. In the first report it said the children themselves were complaining because they were having difficulty because of the use of the veil. The FACT IS....IF she is wearing the veil it DOES effect the children's education! The school also said they had no problem with her wearing it outside of her classroom and in front of male colleagues. She said herself that she did not wear the veil during the interview where men were present, so it was obviously not an issue, because they didn't know she wore one. It became an issue when she wore it while teaching. IF she doesn't wear it while teaching, then there is obviously no problem. But, the complaints came from the children so you'd have to ask them what exactly their complaint was because there seems to be conflicting stories.

Wasalam,
Hana

 

[Curaezipirid]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

May be Salman Rushdie follows the same school of thoughts :?
I think this whole issue is due to the election, popularity, another way to gain votes.

I believe that the extremity of Salman Rushdie's situation was clearly brought about by a different degree of potential disagreement than only stating that belief that it is not always essential for a Muslim woman to wear full veil. Most Muslims will happily not tell you what the reality of the full teaching in respect of Hijab is unless you are within the Ummah, therefore it is necessary to expect that it is best that you not equate disputes over Hijab with the Salman Rushdie situation.

In Salman Rushdie's case, his surname is an unfortunate coincidence with the fact that he manifests a very untoward writing style in which he leaves open ended much which truly in Islam demands a closure.

Often, for example, I might write in a context that is not fully appropriate and about Islam in a manner that other Muslims might not find fully appropriate; but I would not leave my efforts to communicate so wedged open to fearing Allah as Salman Rushdie's writing can. I have only read a single short piece of his prose, and found it simply ending and exactly the worst place. Such is necessary to be disputed as having any thing to do with Islam. But I can tell that one day I was in public without being in full Hijab, and that is a crime to a totally different degree. The key to comprehending this essential difference is Gospel of Isa.

Actually I had in mind to come back into this thread to report that I have found my self able to conceive of any removal of my own Hijab in public only in one instance, and that is when my ears are wanting to hear better. But that is resolvable by putting the veil behind my ears temporarily, and in fact it is not such a bad thing to dampen the sounds of a big city.

The point is that there is a real issue in terms of intergration, but that the likes of Jack Straw are missing the point altogether; and that their approach is pointedly an assault upon Islamic belief in why Hijab is important. Yet when under such an assault, a truly acceptable Islamic approach can be to simply remove the veil. I usually have when speaking to my own counsellor, whom is Christian, for example.

However simply because a portion of the intention of Jack Straw, or of other persons he associates with, is to assault the public image of being Muslim; then it also becomes truly the more appropriate Islamic response to manifest the veil as an integral portion of a Muslim identity.

What about that! Now I have run my self into the absurdity of contemplating the likelyhood of being faced with a situation of wearing the veil to assert Muslim identity, while at the same time, upon occassion, (such as when confronted with persons motivated by the cause of furthering an anti-Islamic sentiment), I might remove Hijab, as an internal attitude, whilst sustaining wearing the veil. There are in fact many conceivable circumstances in which such is the only legal option within Shari'ah.

If I were Jack Straw I would want to become worried about the efforts he is making having the reverse effect to that he desires to acheive.

But I suspect that actually there are many more examples here in Australia, than could be sustained at present in England, of people finding themselves in that situation of need for a momentary removal of the full Hijab, whilst sustaining the identity of wearing full veil. This is clearly exemplified by the paradox of instances in which Muslims are questioned by police as though terrorists only because of wearing the veil; as though simply being Muslim qualifies a person as being a terrorist. When such is assumed of Muslims then such can only become what non-Muslims perceive of Muslims.

Assalamu Alaikum

 

[Bittersteel]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?

maybe those kids were Islamophobes.

I want this situation to be contained within Europe.I hope my country doesn't ban it.

 

[Curaezipirid]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

I take issue with the very concept that a woman should cover her body as a manifestation of her virtue, but then that reveals my bias. I believe there are boundaries to cultural relativity and we are exploring them.

I have removed most of the material Ulysses posted since Hana_Aku has responded so well in accord with my own feeling to the matter at the following places:

Peace Ulysses:

So, as a Canadian living in the Atlantic, I am well . . .

. . . Grrrrr, so frustrating.

Hana

and:

How does a veil pose a threat or risk . . .

. . .(When I say "you", I'm using it in general terms, not to you in particular, so please don't be offended.)

Peace,
Hana

However I would like to add in response to Ulysses original post only a reply to the last paragraph quoted above.

Your bias is truly revealed Ulysses: and therefore I would find it improprieteous to engage in any sort of exploration of the boundaries of cultural relativity with you what so ever; in fact I am most certain in my self in Islam that any real culture has no relativity and is objectively imparted to us in Allah.

A few days ago, my sister was walking back from college and yeah she wears a veil. Anyway, this man stops and says excuse me, I think you're really beautiful under that veil. She looked at him like he was a few cards shy of a full deck, I mean like this --->:uuh: oh:

Then he said no really, I think you must be beautiful and he smiled and walked off. :mmokay:

So what I was thinking after she told me was that d'you think that was Straw in disguise? :rollseyes

Then figure this one out:
I was sitting in class at uni. This man behind me goes to some other guy that he read somewhere or something that women wear the veil because they're scared of men. What a joke?! This man believed it and said that men must be the worst kind of creation, they must be evil and he said loads of other stuff that I cant remember, some of which I didnt understand because he was foreign and spoke his own language. Go figure....ffended:

That definately wasn't Straw but hey imagine some people thinking that.....:heated:

I am figuring out that the man at the class at uni is truly only so terrified of women that he hates any female; and is accustomed to projecting the majority of his hatred upon Muslims, so associates freely to any perceivable weakness in any Muslim woman. That he speaks ill of men is a testimony only to his actual fear of women. The poor fellow must have been raped by a prostitute or something equally bad. That is usually the case among men whom are very assertive of a radical feminist point of veiw.

However, the guy who is a few cards shy of the full deck is the more revealing example of an act of hatred of Muslims.

There is a bizarre fact at the centre of his assertion that I might be able to clarify. There happens to be a number of obsure and wrongful beliefs among persons whose inner affiliations are with actual nazism in respect of Muslims. These are: that a Muslim woman only covers her hair and face so as to save up massive quantities of vanity with which to avoid manfiesting belief in the true teaching of the grave; and that all Muslims engage in the genital aspect of wudu as a form of sado masochism. The bizzare nature of these facts speaks only to the reality that any person whom affiliates with nazism is truly quite some many cards short of the full deck. I have found some evidence that such persons actually made a massive experiment upon themselves in connection to the genital wudu to test its efficaciousness. But they all already then had an extreme STD, such that cold water caused actual pain to their genitals. That is why the manifest such perverse belief towards Muslims. Obtaining certainty of this knowledge was truly the most disgusting thing that ever had any necessity of occurring; and at such an expense of being taken my self to be a nazi, for some time, by other persons in my own community, such that they could not trust or believe me, that I now have little tolerance of being disputed with in these being factual. (or having, I hope now, previously been: having now been becoming gradually obsolete facts by being knowable)

There comes a point at which the only response is to find the situation we are all faced with totally absurd. Yet the lesson in what I am portraying is only that: when a person has fallen so far as to suppose it acceptable to offer implicitly perverse compliments to a very modest woman; then that person is a person falling into a pattern of habitually exposing their actual nature to the observance of belief in accountiblity. What I am stating is that those whom believe in such things as nazism also believe in extremes of violation of the Human physical body, and when only other persons whom are as wrong in their efforts to escape their account in Allah know of what is happening, then whom will be enabled to hold such persons accountible. There are very saddeningly many of such persons; and when they make any perverse compliment of any Muslim woman in a public setting, in which the woman is safe; we must regard their expression as a victory since by such expressions alone we will be enabled to ensure that they enter the fire of Jahannam. That is why I am able to conscionably express what I have learned: so that more Muslims are enabled to detect the signs of such perverse belief and hold it to account.

The issue of Hijab truly draws out the worst in any person in respect to their attitude to Islam; and to such a degree that we need no other battle ground in any place where Islamic education is available to any person whom is in need of.

wasalam

 

[*Hana*]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?

maybe those kids were Islamophobes.

I want this situation to be contained within Europe.I hope my country doesn't ban it.

Salam Alaikum:

She said herself most of the children were Muslim.

Wasalam,
Hana

 

[nishom]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?

If the government was to ban the veil, what would sisters on this forum who practice veiling do?

If it meant you losing your job, would you make compromises and wear jilbaab and hijaab instead. After all, its important that all Muslims contribute to the society they live in to change it for the better.

 

[S_87]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?



-i dont work and inshaAllah will never have to

- if they banned it may Allah help us but inshaAllah i will not take off my veil... dont think they will just yet though :?

 

[nishom]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?

Personally, i think the banniong of the veil in schools and workplaces is likely to be banned in the UK ver soon.

However, i also respect that the government will not go to completely banning the practise of veiling.

 

[amirah_87]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?

As Salaamu Alaykum,

You just give it another year or so and they'll start banning the whole hijaab!! :heated:

 

[nishom]

Re: Teacher Sacked For Wearin Veil ?!?!?

In the aftermath of the controversial banning of the hijab in French schools, im sure the view of this governmant was that 'we live in a country which appreciates multiculturalism and recognises peoples rights.'

Wewll now the same debate is happenning here, and im afraid sister, that you may indeed be right in assuming so.

 

[Curaezipirid]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

A few days ago, my sister was walking back from college and yeah she wears a veil. Anyway, this man stops and says excuse me, I think you're really beautiful under that veil. She looked at him like he was a few cards shy of a full deck, I mean like this --->:uuh: oh:

Then he said no really, I think you must be beautiful and he smiled and walked off. :mmokay:

So what I was thinking after she told me was that d'you think that was Straw in disguise? :rollseyes

I thought of a new reply to this situation. I would have said to any Australian stranger who approached me like that: "it's all right mate, its only that the headgear covers up me dandruff"

But now I am wondering is there a context in which we can seriously discuss when and why any Muslim women might expose her face/hair/neck/hands: what are the immediate modern conditions in which we can accept that such can occur for a women and she sustain her integrity? I wonder are there Muslim women worrying about this; and I know that in the American context there is a long period of grace given every new convert to Islam before she is expected to cover her self. While I my self have been at odds with my family most usually because they are not recognising my work because of my Hijab; and that is enabling my sister to claim the results of my labour because she seeks to manifest her appearance alike to my own. The indigenous Australian tradition only requires Hijab for adults, so in the example of my own self in which I am very often assumed to be in wedlock or a prostitute, while I am yet a girl, it can be actually a danger to sustain my self consistently in Hijab. But I rarely remove it, only because of a full comprehension of the Law which causes that Hijab is necessary. So if my sister (a blood sister not a belief sister) wants to make out like she looks like my own past, then that is her problem ultimately. But the family trait of "tough" love is a bit much/

wasalam

 

[Mujahidah4Allah]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw



well i suppose we shouldnt get so wild of this issue but at the same time we can because my sister was telling me how a sister in liverpool got attacked and her niqaab was pulled off.. so it seems like the people against the niqaab are already taking action... how do we deal with this??

ma'salamah

 

[nishom]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

At the time of any adversity, the Muslim is the one who struggles with utmost perseverance, patience and endeavour, and does not compromise their faith and beliefs for the pleasure of those who wish that you could turn away from your religion.

Be strong all.

 

[nishom]

ken livingstone-veil

Livingstone defends freedom to dress in accordance with ones religious conscience

source: islamonline.com.
accessed on 17/10/2006 at 16:47


Mayor issued a Press Release stressing that the freedom to dress in accordance with ones religious conscience is a “fundamental human right”.

Circulating rumours are suggesting that London’s Mayor Ken Livingstone has backed Commons Leader Jack Straw's stance over Muslim women’s full face veil.

But London Mayor only said that he wishes if Muslim women would give up the veil, but made it clear that he doesn’t mean imposing that on them and that the change should be suggested from within their community. He said the change would have to come over the "long term" from within the Muslim community, rather than through actions of "old white male politicians".

To clear this confusion, the office of the Mayor issued a Press Release on Saturday saying that freedom to dress in accordance with ones religious conscience is a fundamental human right.

Press Release:

Saturday, 14 October 2006

The Mayor of London Ken Livingstone said:

‘Britain today faces a concerted campaign by sections of the media and some politicians, fanned by fascist grouplets, aimed at sowing hatred against Muslims. This has now culminated in physical attacks, firebombings, and assaults on women. This constitutes an attack on civil and religious liberties including an attempt to suppress the right of persons of all faiths to dress in accordance with their religious convictions.

‘Whatever a person's view on the most suitable forms of dress they have no right to impose this on others - it is a fundamental human right that every person should be allowed to dress in accordance with their religious views, as dictated only by their individual conscience. This right had to be defended in the past for Sikhs and other communities and it must be today for Muslims or indeed any other community that faces such a challenge. It applies equally therefore to those who wish to wear crucifixes.

'The prosperity and cohesion of London as one of the most diverse cities in the world is inextricably linked to respect for these basic principles of freedom of individual choice'.

 

[scentsofjannah]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

It seems perfectly reasonable to me and I agree with this comment. Do I support the principle behind the veil: no. Do I think it's nevertheless a personal choice: sure. I really don't understand why people are so upset about this, surely they didn't expect many Westerners would agree with the idea behind wearing a veil, right?

I think he is simply being honest.

couldn't agree more with you..

 

[scentsofjannah]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

i think straw is a class a muppet as well as zionist with a hidden agenda. i HOPE those muslims who were keen on voting him in before sees some sense!

I am not a fan of Straw..and i don't care much about the murky business thats politics..putting that aside..what he actually said made perfect sense i will go one step further even..it could be a health hazard..sometimes the cloth comes over the eyes etc...the timing and the manner of deliverance was wrong..and ofcourse the subsequent colonial-style lectures by politicians , weeks long hourly headlines about the veil and media hysteria , the reaction of certain muslims that ensued was uncalled for, boring and totally disgusting in my view..at a time when people are dying of hunger and wars people are concerned about this little piece of cloth on the faces of about 10,000 or less women in the whole of the United Kingdom!!!..

 

[sameer]

Blair's concerns over face veils


Tony Blair has said the wearing of full face veils by Muslim women is a "mark of separation" and made some "outside the community feel uncomfortable".

The prime minister also backed Kirklees Council, which suspended classroom assistant Aishah Azmi for refusing to remove her full face veil at school.

But his intervention was criticised by Ms Azmi's lawyer, as the employment tribunal has yet to give a verdict.

He has threatened proceedings against Mr Blair if there is no retraction.

In his monthly press conference, Mr Blair said there was a need for a wider debate about community integration while allowing people to develop their "distinctive identity".


It is a mark of separation and that is why it makes other people from outside the community feel uncomfortable
Tony Blair on full face veils

Mr Blair told reporters at his first news conference since MPs returned from their long summer break that a debate was needed on how the Muslim community integrates with British society.

"Difficult though these issues are, I think they have to be raised and confronted and dealt with," he said.

"And then, there's a second issue, which is about Islam itself and how Islam comes to terms with - and is comfortable with - the modern world."

Community balance

The debate was already going on in "every village, town and city" in the UK, as people sought a balance between "preserving a distinctive identity and integration."

When asked at the news conference if a Muslim woman wearing a veil could make a contribution to society, he replied: "That's a very difficult question.

"It is a mark of separation and that is why it makes other people from outside the community feel uncomfortable.

"No-one wants to say that people don't have the right to do it. That is to take it too far. But I think we need to confront this issue about how we integrate people properly into our society."

Tony Blair
Mr Blair made his comments during his monthly press conference

He also said he "fully supported" the way the authority dealt with Aishah Azmi at Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, by suspending her.

But her lawyer, Mr Whittingham, said his comments had "specifically and directly" interfered with the employment tribunal - which had yet to make a decision, which would inevitably be appealed against by the losing side.

He said Mr Blair's interference was a breach of the ministerial code, which requires ministers to uphold the administration of justice.

"We require the Prime Minister immediately to issue a qualification or a retraction," he wrote.

"If comments are not qualified or withdrawn then Mrs Azmi will consider bringing a complaint under the ministerial code and bringing injunction proceedings against the prime minister".

Full face veils became a matter of political debate two weeks ago when Jack Straw said he asked women to remove them, when they visited his office.

Government minister Phil Woolas has also angered some Muslim groups by calling for 23-year-old Ms Azmi to be sacked.

But her MP, Labour's Shahid Malik said ministers had been right to give their views and it had resulted in helpful debate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6058672.stm

 

[Curaezipirid]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

well i suppose we shouldnt get so wild of this issue but at the same time we can because my sister was telling me how a sister in liverpool got attacked and her niqaab was pulled off.. so it seems like the people against the niqaab are already taking action... how do we deal with this??

ma'salamah

First I need to apologise that I have not yet received meaning for word niqaab.

Then that perhaps what a niqaab is could qualify adversely my other commentary.

My sincerest belief about a situation in which any woman is physically attacked such as that described is for a very stringent solution in the attire as well as behaviourally.

Can I explain with an example from within my own life. Once I was walking down a street in Oxford in around 1989, quite late at night, but there was other pedestrian traffic; and that was usual in that place. But suddenly there was only one other person whom was behind me and I felt very vulnerable. I considered why and immediately recognised that: I was wearing my hair out (this was before I reverted so I almost always had my hair long and uncovered); I was wearing a skirt; I had feminine style shoes on. None of these three facts were then common for me. I immediately began to tie my hair back and just at that moment was attacked from behind by the other (male) pedestrian. I let out a blood curdling scream and let my self prematurely fall down and got out from under him before he could react; then he ran away with me screaming at him never to do that again to any woman. But thereafter I very heavily considered all aspects of my clothing and what the reaction I received socially was attuned to each aspect. I had always been modest in my dress; but thereafter I noticed things like the fact that if a woman wears male style boots that she is safer. If a person has any aspect of their self dangling they are more likely to be mugged because of being vulnerable to. etc etc etc I have been observant enough that I can usually find safety in most extreme situations; though I must add that nobody has ever actually pulled a gun on me literally, but only threatened me with. I am the sort of person whom goes into a fast black out if I am in actual bodily danger that is inescapable and not of my own making.

So, all that told, my advice for any woman whom has experienced being attacked, or is afraid of such: is to mind all aspects of clothing so as that none of hinders the movement of her body in agility and speed. For example the dress of a Punjabi woman feels safer to wear than a Sari. But most often dressing in a way that could be taken for a male's dressing is the safest.

Modesty has many qualities. In one situation a modest dress might be only to blend in; while in another situation a modest dress might be to be different.

I hope this helps

wasalam

 

[Kamilah]

Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

What good is expected from the enemies of Islam?

whats more hurtful and worrying is our own fellow Muslims are doing to the ummah !
take a look at this;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1924101,00.html

 

[Ulysses]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I've learned a lot about Islamic views. Too many responses for me to respond to each of you individually, but a few overarching comments.

First, separation of church and state is a fundamental principle of many nation states. If Muslims living in such nation states cannot abide by this principle, then they really should ask themselves why it is they are living in such a nation state.

Second, the comment about blind children: blindness is considered a disability, i.e., people who are not able to see the faces and non-verbal communication of others are widely acknowledged as not having all the same abilities to communicate, perceive, and understand as people gifted with sight. If you're point is that, people can overcome disabilities and that their societies can accomodate their disabilities, and foster their development inspite of their disabilities, then your point is well taken. If your point is that, it is equally optimal for communication to occur in the absence of visual sense of facial expressions, your point is erroneous.

Third, the comments about attacks on women wearing niqab: anecdotes.

Fourth, a respectful reminder to all of you who are faithful Muslims. Not all of us share your beliefs, and I would ask that you respect our rights to do so. While I will gladly entertain your claims that your worldview is superior, that your religion is an entire way of life, and that all other worldviews will eventually be eliminated and replaced with yours, I would also point out to you that similar claims have been made by a wide variety of groups including: Catholic crusaders, Mongol conquerors, Roman Imperialists, European colonialists, Aztec sacrificers, Christian missionaries, Spanish inquisitors, Aryan supremacists, Klu Klux Klan lynchers, "communist" liberators, Soviet invaders, etc., etc., etc. I do not doubt that your worldview is truly fullfilling, beautiful and rewarding. However, is it also so precarious that it must be defined in terms of exclusive superiority to any other worldview, such as my own Buddhist view?