Viewpoint: History dispels the lies about Islam

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Bear in mind that the inquisition was just as evil towards other christians (I am a protestant, hence "protesting" against the inquisition and the catholic church) as they were towards muslims.
That was not the point that I was making. Re-read what I wrote in reply to your initial point.

I said many, not the majority. Most muslims I have met in private or discussed with on the net have been good people.

According to the dictionary many means the majority of the people; the masses


But today, this is reality. Appart from the disgusting things USA have done, most of the violent religious outrage comes from muslims or countries with a majority of muslim population.
This not what you claimed. You wrote and I quote:

No wonder, as most of the religious atrocities on this planet is done by muslims themselves.

In other words, most of the 'religious atrocities' in history has been commited by Muslims.

But even if we look at your revised claim (present-day), then it really begs the question why Muslims did not commit 'the majority' of religious atrocities 1400 years? Why did they not commit during the period of the righteous predecessors where the orthodox Islaam was practised fully. Why now? The reason is simple and plain and that is those who petrepated these acts have strayed from the current Islaamic teachings.
 
Oh my goodness, if you wanna discuss women and women rights, Islam versus Christianity, then you really have your work cut out for you... Do I really have to quote from the quoran..?[/qupte]

salama

chk this out

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=127


Paul lived in a society 2000 years ago. They had their own ways of living, as we have our own ways today. Christianity has moved on, we realize that there is no way we can live our lives the way Paul and his likes did.. There are a few christian societies trying to live as they lived then, the Amish people for one, they are peacefull and have withdrawn from our modern ways, not once have I heard that women are suppressed by them.
but who decides the new laws?? so christians just decide their own laws and yet they say that the bible is the word of God. if its the word of God then why dont u act upon it. this is the difference between the corrupted bible and the holy quran. we dont play with the word of God, we follow it.

and u said that paul and jesus "prophets" are holy but why dont u attack them for their "backward" culture lool. why did God reveal a law that is cruel against women even in that time.

islam is the only religion that has freed women 1400 years ago.



As I said, don't ask me to cut and paste from the quoran, I am likely to be banned by the admins..
u can cut and paste from the quran if u want but everything has been explained by the modz. weve very knowledgeable muslims here who can answer your hate for islam.
 
Oh my goodness, if you wanna discuss women and women rights, Islam versus Christianity, then you really have your work cut out for you... Do I really have to quote from the quoran..?[/qupte]

salama

chk this out

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=127

What did muhammad teach about women? While it is true that Muhammad raised the status of Arabian women in some respects, we cannot let this fact cloud certain other issues, namely, that Muhammad permitted husbands to beat their wives, that he repeatedly proclaimed the inferiority of women’s intellectual abilities, that he taught that women’s prospects for the afterlife are extremely bleak, and that it is acceptable for men to rape their female captives. You have to look at the realities, man.

1. The Quoran allows men to beat their wives into subservience.

Men are the protectors And maintainers of women, Because Allah has given The one more (strength) Than the other, and because They support them From their means. Therefore the righteous women Are devoutly obedient, and guard In (the husband’s) absence What Allah would have them guard. As to those women On whose part ye fear Disloyalty and ill-conduct, Admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); But if they return to obedience, Seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).[9]

2. According to Muhammad, women lack common sense because their minds are deficient.

The Prophet said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

And: "..the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense."

"O women! Give to charity, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women." The women asked, "O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He said: "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious man astray."

Isn't this from Muhammad?

3. Muhammad offered women little hope for the afterlife.

"I saw paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked: "O Allah’s Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet said: "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said: "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds."

4. The Muslim practice of having sex with captured women is reported often in the Hadith, where we find Muslims perplexed about what to do with their captives. Just recently I saw a post in here from a man asking if it was ok for him to have sex with captured woman. The fact that someone ASKS THESE QUESTIONS AT ALL in the years 2006 is pretty disturbing, no matter what answers he may get in here to avoid such behaviour. Because there are bound to be muslims who DO NOT ASK at all because they see the quoran as infailable.. Very disturbing..!

but who decides the new laws?? so christians just decide their own laws and yet they say that the bible is the word of God. if its the word of God then why dont u act upon it. this is the difference between the corrupted bible and the holy quran. we dont play with the word of God, we follow it.
I don't think you understand the concept of democracy. Christians do not "make new laws", however, our society does. Mixing politics with religion is never a smart thing to do, unless all the inhabitants of a country belongs to the same faith and believes the same things. I don't think there is such a place anywhere today. And if you still insists on practicing Sharia laws then you are clearly supressing people who do not believe the same as you do, you are violating their human rights. I don't want to be judged by a muslim court, and in the court, I don't think you would want to be jugded by a jewish or a concervative christian court either, as you do not follow (or understand) our belief. Hence, democracy has to be focusing on the individuals rights, not our religious ideas or laws.

and u said that paul and jesus "prophets" are holy but why dont u attack them for their "backward" culture lool. why did God reveal a law that is cruel against women even in that time.
What christian laws are cruel to women? Paul wasn't a prophet and neither was he holy and neither did he write laws. He had lots of suggestions though, some of which were good, especially in those days. But he was still just a man.

We have come to realize that not all that Paul said in the Bible can be used as a model in the modern world. For instance, he said that women should keep their silence and not speak in public. We have gone away from that, because Jesus held women very high. Those closest to him were in fact women. Norway was the first country in the world to have a female bishop (a position above our priests) and we also have several female priests. It's a controvercy, but I guess most christians accept it as it is an acceptance of women as equal to men. How many female imams do you know of?

About laws; We have based our laws on human rights (not all people are christians here either, and we have to respect those who chose not to believe, that is their human right too..), these laws do not collide with christianity in a way that makes it impossible to live as a christian. Some said that females can't divorce in christianity (was it you?) which is nonsense. Bible clearly states that women can divorce for the right reasons, such as adultry. And our democratic laws gives anyone the right to divorce if they really believe it is for the better.

We are now, here in 2006. There are no countries in the world were women rights are stronger than in the "christian" west. Woman rights is a sign of progress.
islam is the only religion that has freed women 1400 years ago.
And, it really doesn't matter to most people what happened 1400 years ago in terms of human rights. We are now, this is where it happens, and I still see that women are supressed under islam. Or do you disagree? Tell me, what country in the west would stone someone to death for adultry or for becoming pregnant outside of marriage?

u can cut and paste from the quran if u want but everything has been explained by the modz. weve very knowledgeable muslims here who can answer your hate for islam.

I don't have hate for islam, and I think you should restrain from continuing to say so. But I will address things that I find disturbing, yes, just as I will adress things in christianity that I find disturbing. Doesn't mean I hate it, but I see room for improvement... You have to use your head sometimes, and that goes for anyone, including me. (I am not always doing things the correct way either, I know.)
 
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)
It is from Pauls letters to the church in corinth, not laws but his opinions.
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)
It is from Pauls letters to the church in corinth, not laws but his opinions.
1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
It is from Pauls letters to Timothy, not laws but his opinions. What he does permit while there (he was a leader) is not something we practice today.
Why bible doesn't give the right to divorce to women?
Christians can divorce.
why doesnt the bible give women's inheritance rights?
Why would it need to? When someone is divorced they are obliged to divide in half and share their belongings.
People Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones

If you only knew what you were talking about and your accusations were correct. But they are not.
 
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That was not the point that I was making. Re-read what I wrote in reply to your initial point.



According to the dictionary many means the majority of the people; the masses


This not what you claimed. You wrote and I quote:

No wonder, as most of the religious atrocities on this planet is done by muslims themselves.
No. pron. (used with a pl. verb) It's a question of how you define it.
A large number of persons or things: "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). You can't honestly say that many means all, we know that most people are not called to be christians (In countries with high population such as India, China and Indonesia a majority of people is not called.. At least not yet.). And yes, a large number of muslims (but not a majority) have commited atrocities. Happens every single day, suicide bombers, civilians are being held hostage and often killed, etc.

I said: I think you should start a new religion, and call yourselves something else than Islam. Because many representatives of your faith is anything but polite and sivil...

What I mean is that the followers of Islam who is killing in the name of Allah (and many are, but certainly not the majority of the muslims..), burning embassies, destroying property of both non-religious and religious value, commiting suicide bombing, etc, have discredited the faith in such a manner that non-muslims often look upon muslims as followers of a religion with very destructive means and goals. Therefor it would have been wise for muslims to take their Quoran, disconnect from all atrocities done in the name of their holy book and make a fresh start (just as Luther did when he realized that what the catholics did was not according to The Bible, and started protesting against the catholics, hence creating the Protestant movement separating us from them, we don't even share the same Bible anymore). Because there is no way you will be able to control both the positive and the negative forces that is situated under the same umbrela: Islam. Conclusion: A new Islam based on peace where crimes towards others is strictly forbidden, no matter the cause of the crimes. Thats my personal opinion. Obviously you have the right to disagree.
In other words, most of the 'religious atrocities' in history has been commited by Muslims.
I fail to see how you can draw that conclusion, there have been atrocities done by others as well. But I live today, I look around, I comment on the things I see. There is absolutely no doubt that the one religion (of the most influential ones) that has the most followers who are willing to commit crime in the name of God/Allah (and actually do it..) towards other humans, is Islam. You may say that USA is "christian" (which they are not) and they attacked Iraq, but you will never hear american soldiers claim that they do what they do because the Bible says so.
But even if we look at your revised claim (present-day), then it really begs the question why Muslims did not commit 'the majority' of religious atrocities 1400 years? Why did they not commit during the period of the righteous predecessors where the orthodox Islaam was practised fully. Why now? The reason is simple and plain and that is those who petrepated these acts have strayed from the current Islaamic teachings.

I agree. They have strayed and they have discredited the Quoran in such a way that it may take several generations to make up for it, if ever. I can't see how it can be done. But maybe it can, if the Allah that you follow is the true God, then he will sort it out. But I have to say that some of the things I have seen done in the name of Allah has been shocking. The execution of civilians filmed and put out on the internet for all to see, it is really acts of extreme evil and ignorance. And it continues to happen.
 
What did muhammad teach about women?
Yes, what did he teach? Let's see:

The Prophet singled out the education of women and their kind treatment by promising paradise to those who fulfilled this right of women:
Anyone who cares for three daughter, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them well, they will enter paradise. (Abu Dawud)
Notice that he didn't mention sons in the above hadith. In another hadith, the companions asked him about 2 daugthers and he said, "even two". They asked about one and he said, "even one".

He emphasized education for both males and females:
"Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim". (Al-Bayhaqi).

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes the righteous woman in the most beautiful way:
The life of this world is bountiful, and the best of the bounties of this world is the righteous woman. (Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh makes kindness and compassion to women integral to one's piety:
The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. (Ibn Hibban)

"None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (Tirmidhi)

The Prophet Muhammd pbuh supported women's freedom of choice in marriage:
Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of Allah, and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice...(between accepting the marriage or invalidating it) (Ahmad).
another version of the report states that
"the girl said: 'Actually, I accept this marriage, but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right to force a husband on them.'" (Ibn Majah)

Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud).

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh supported women's choice to travel to the mosque at night:
Do not prevent women from going to the mosques at night. (Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh supported women's freedom of choice in divorce:
Barira's husband was a slave called Mughith, as if I am seeing him now, going behind Barira and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to 'Abbas, "O 'Abbas ! are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith?" The Prophet then said to Barira, "Why don't you return to him?" She said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you order me to do so?" He said, "No, I only intercede for him." She said, "I am not in need of him." (Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh orders consulting with women:
Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes men and women equally:
"If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)." (Adh-Dhahabi in Al-Kabâ'ir)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh told his followers not to marry women for some superficial/external benefit but for their piety:
A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so marry one who is religious, may you be blessed (Bukhari)
This is of course, at a time when women were only used and valued for external appearance of some other superficial characteristic.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh described a man who fights with his wife as one driven by the most evil devil:
Iblees sets up his throne on the water, then he sends out his raiding parties. The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation (fitnah). One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' He (Iblees) says, 'You have not done much.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then he (Iblees) comes close to him and says, 'How good you are!' (Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said the most evil person is a man who divulges his wife's secrets:
Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets. (Muslim 1437, Ahmad 11258, and Abu Dawud 4870)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to help his wives doing housework at home:
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "He kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night:
Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you. (Bukhari 1874, Muslim 1159)

And of course there is the lofty status of a mother, which the Prophet Muhammad pbuh described:
"A man asked the Prophet: 'Whom should I honor most?' The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother!'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your father'" (Bukhari and Muslim).

And the Prophet pbuh emphasized that paradise could only achieved through serving one's mother with kindness, respect and obedience:
Paradise lies at the feet of your mother (Ahmad, An-Nasaa'i and Ibn Majah)​

There. Now on to your misconceptions:

1. The Quoran allows men to beat their wives into subservience.
Answered here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/TafsirAyah34

2. According to Muhammad, women lack common sense because their minds are deficient.
Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/3256-why-two-women-witnesses.html

3. Muhammad offered women little hope for the afterlife.
Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/100453-post17.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/33428-post6.html

4. The Muslim practice of having sex with captured women is reported often in the Hadith, where we find Muslims perplexed about what to do with their captives.
Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/8369-slave-girls.html


Seeing as every single one of your allegations, without exception, has already been responded to on the forum and the main site, I strongly suggest that you make use of the search facility before posting.

What christian laws are cruel to women?
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Islam_Vs_Women_In_The_Judaeo-Christian/

Regards
 
Salaam,

No for i do not know her nor her email.
But the result for heretic are clear and plain.

Her actions are of a woman lost and impassioned by emotion but not by logic.
Inshallah,their outburst are strong and striking but the word only show her foolhardiness and her lack of knowledge.

Inshallah she will get what she deserve.

What exactly does "she " deserve? Why"
 
Yes, what did he teach? Let's see:

The Prophet singled out the education of women and their kind treatment by promising paradise to those who fulfilled this right of women:
Anyone who cares for three daughter, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them well, they will enter paradise. (Abu Dawud)
Notice that he didn't mention sons in the above hadith. In another hadith, the companions asked him about 2 daugthers and he said, "even two". They asked about one and he said, "even one".

He emphasized education for both males and females:
"Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim". (Al-Bayhaqi).

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes the righteous woman in the most beautiful way:
The life of this world is bountiful, and the best of the bounties of this world is the righteous woman. (Muslim)

I totally disagree. The best of the bounties of this world is the righteous MAN, cause there is absolutely no doubt that men has the most power. In many parts of the world, it doesn't matter if a woman is rightous as long as she has no power or means to use her rightousness. Where will she be rightous? In bed? With her family?
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh makes kindness and compassion to women integral to one's piety:
The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. (Ibn Hibban)
Yes, we have some of the same rules in regards to life stock, be kind to your animals and they will thrive.. It doesn't give them any rights, though... Unless they are physically harmed, in which the farmers may be punnished.
"None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (Tirmidhi)
Personally I feel that one should try and avoid treating anybody disgracefully. It shouldn't be neccessary to mention women in specific, unless you live in a place where they are naturally oppressed...

The Prophet Muhammd pbuh supported women's freedom of choice in marriage:
Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of Allah, and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice...(between accepting the marriage or invalidating it) (Ahmad).
another version of the report states that
"the girl said: 'Actually, I accept this marriage, but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right to force a husband on them.'" (Ibn Majah)
So what? That goes without saying. There are no forced marriages in Norway but amongst muslims. For several years the authorities have struggled to dismiss such marriages, without much luck. The problem didn't exist at all before the muslims arrived. Makes you think, doesn't it?
Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud).
Then why is this such a problem amongst muslims still in the year 2006? Are they unable to understand the words of Muhammad?
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh supported women's choice to travel to the mosque at night:
Do not prevent women from going to the mosques at night. (Bukhari)
Wow.. They can go at night? Sorry Ansar, but a woman should be able to go anywhere at anytime without any problems. They are equal to men. Why did Muhammad have to state specifically that WOMEN should have this right? Was it because arabs were reluctant to give women any rights at all?

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh supported women's freedom of choice in divorce:
So does any constitution of any country in the western world. It is a basic human right.
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh orders consulting with women:
Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)
Why would he have to order consulting with women? Isn't that natural for most men, to consult with their women? What he is actually saying is that women should stay home and take care of the house (make food, clean, all that boring stuff..) and then men should go out and get educated and prosper. It wont make them very equal.
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes men and women equally:
"If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)." (Adh-Dhahabi in Al-Kabâ'ir)
What was the reward of Ayyub and what was the reward of Ayyubs daughter? I think being patient is a reward in it self, because in that way you avoid heated discussions and quareling.
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh told his followers not to marry women for some superficial/external benefit but for their piety:
A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so marry one who is religious, may you be blessed (Bukhari)
This is of course, at a time when women were only used and valued for external appearance of some other superficial characteristic.
It started out well, "marry a woman for her piety", but then it ended all wrong... and superficial.. If property, status and beauty isn't superficial, then what is? I could never marry someone for either of those reasons. This is someone you are likely to live with for the rest of your life. You need to like your wife as a person, otherwise non of you will be happy.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh described a man who fights with his wife as one driven by the most evil devil:
Iblees sets up his throne on the water, then he sends out his raiding parties. The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation (fitnah). One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' He (Iblees) says, 'You have not done much.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then he (Iblees) comes close to him and says, 'How good you are!' (Muslim)
I agree, but it works both ways.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said the most evil person is a man who divulges his wife's secrets:
Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets. (Muslim 1437, Ahmad 11258, and Abu Dawud 4870)
Well, any man (or woman) who can't keep a secret can be annoying to any marriage.
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to help his wives doing housework at home:
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "He kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Bukhari)
That is something every man should do to keep his family happy. I make food, clean, wash clothes, and most other thing needed to make a good home.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night:
Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you. (Bukhari 1874, Muslim 1159)

And of course there is the lofty status of a mother, which the Prophet Muhammad pbuh described:
"A man asked the Prophet: 'Whom should I honor most?' The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother!'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your father'" (Bukhari and Muslim).

And the Prophet pbuh emphasized that paradise could only achieved through serving one's mother with kindness, respect and obedience:
Paradise lies at the feet of your mother (Ahmad, An-Nasaa'i and Ibn Majah)
I get this feeling that, well, yeah, be nice to your mother and your sisters and to females and there will be less problems with them.. And in the west we see that many women of Islam get their education. Yet, the talibans in Afghanistan denied women the rights to get educated, they had to hide themselves behind clothes when going out, etc. And you may say that the talibans were not "real" muslims (they got it all wrong and don't understand the quoran), yet there is plenty of evidence in here that many foreign "muslims" are really eager to go to Afghanistan and fight for the taliban and Allah. So the talibans, who are not "really" muslims, they are widely supported throughout the muslim world.. It is hypocracy..

There. Now on to your misconceptions:
Thanks, I will read those later.
Answered here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/TafsirAyah34


Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/3256-why-two-women-witnesses.html


Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/100453-post17.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/33428-post6.html


Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/8369-slave-girls.html


Seeing as every single one of your allegations, without exception, has already been responded to on the forum and the main site, I strongly suggest that you make use of the search facility before posting.


http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Islam_Vs_Women_In_The_Judaeo-Christian/

Regards
 
I totally disagree. The best of the bounties of this world is the righteous MAN, cause there is absolutely no doubt that men has the most power.
So you say that the righteous man is the best of the life's bounties and you accuse the one who says the righteous woman is the best of life's bounties, of mysogyny!

Yes, we have some of the same rules in regards to life stock, be kind to your animals and they will thrive.. It doesn't give them any rights, though...
No it does give them rights and it protects them from abuse. Islam commands just treatment of women and treating them with compassion, as the hadith shows. Clearly this refutes the notion that Islam is mysognystic.

It shouldn't be neccessary to mention women in specific, unless you live in a place where they are naturally oppressed...
Which is the case here. The pre-islamic arabs used to devalue and oppress women and Islam liberated them from all that and established that men and women are equal in the sight of God, and it mandated the kind treatment of women.

As for the rest of your post, it is interesting to note that you first brought the accusation against Prophet Muhammad pbuh concerning his teachings on women, and as soon as I bring the hadith you fallaciously turn to examples of Muslims not following Islam in the world today, as though it somehow has something to do with your original accusation. This is the case with your appeal to the taliban and the supposed actions of some Muslims in Norway.

Also in your post you commit the fallacy of saying, "so what? everyone acknowledges this is the right of women". It seems you have failed to realize that these hadith refute what you claimed was the status of women in Islam. They show that Islam elevated women's status and gave them rights that they have only achieved in non-muslim countries after 1400 years.

If property, status and beauty isn't superficial, then what is? I could never marry someone for either of those reasons.
Which is exactly what the Prophet says.

I agree, but it works both ways.
Yes it does, but anti-islamists only quote (and even distort) the hadith which chastise women for fighting with their husbands and they forget about hadith like this one which are quite explicit and powerful in condemning and chastising husbands for fighting with their wives. Islam is a balanced way of life. When one reads all the teachings of the Prophet pbuh they see that he was in no way unjust to women.

Regards
 
So you say that the righteous man is the best of the life's bounties and you accuse the one who says the righteous woman is the best of life's bounties, of mysogyny!
Until men and women are treated equal everywhere, it is more important that men are rightous, because we are still mostly in charge of things. And we are the ones who can make sure men and women are being treated equally.
Which is the case here. The pre-islamic arabs used to devalue and oppress women and Islam liberated them from all that and established that men and women are equal in the sight of God, and it mandated the kind treatment of women.
A good thing. But women are still not equal to men in most islamic societies, and not even in the west. We just recently had a muslim demonstration here in Oslo, and it was weird to see all the women walk alone behind all the men..
As for the rest of your post, it is interesting to note that you first brought the accusation against Prophet Muhammad pbuh concerning his teachings on women, and as soon as I bring the hadith you fallaciously turn to examples of Muslims not following Islam in the world today, as though it somehow has something to do with your original accusation. This is the case with your appeal to the taliban and the supposed actions of some Muslims in Norway.
Because there should be a relevant link between Muhammads teachings and status quo for muslims today. If his teachings have any value for muslims, they would have to follow him, not disregard his laws.
Also in your post you commit the fallacy of saying, "so what? everyone acknowledges this is the right of women". It seems you have failed to realize that these hadith refute what you claimed was the status of women in Islam. They show that Islam elevated women's status and gave them rights that they have only achieved in non-muslim countries after 1400 years.
Islam elevated women's status, but it still seems not all are willing to accept the elevation. Take the subject of wife-beating. In Australia the police has a handbook in how to deal with people from other cultures. It says that muslim husbands who beat their wives must be treated differently from other domestic violence cases, as a matter of cultural sensitivity: “In incidents such as domestic violence,” says the handbook, “police need to have an understanding of the traditions, ways of life and habits of Muslims.”

This is how they understand the elevation of women in Islam. Wife-beating is the norm.

According to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences, over 90% of married women report being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, or when the women had 'failed' to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy. Another organization stated that one woman is murdered and one woman is kidnapped in Pakistan every day.
Yes it does, but anti-islamists only quote (and even distort) the hadith which chastise women for fighting with their husbands and they forget about hadith like this one which are quite explicit and powerful in condemning and chastising husbands for fighting with their wives. Islam is a balanced way of life. When one reads all the teachings of the Prophet pbuh they see that he was in no way unjust to women.

Regards
In that case I will have to asume that many muslims are unable or unwilling to read the same teachings, and just go on as their ancestors have done in the centuries before them. Perhaps some of the quotes in the quoran should be removed.
 
Because there should be a relevant link between Muhammads teachings and status quo for muslims today. If his teachings have any value for muslims, they would have to follow him, not disregard his laws.
This is the problem. You automatically link all behaviour of Muslims with their religion while ignoring other factors such as their culture, their education, the political and economic situation, etc. That is the fallacy of your argument. You fail to realize that the oppressive practices of some Muslims have their roots in culture and not religion, and it is when Muslims prefer their culture over their religion that they stray from the straight path. All the abuse of women you report goes against the Prophet's very clear statements to treat women with kindness and compassion.

Since your arguments about Islam vs. Christianity are very similar to those of Turin Turambar's, which I have already responded to, I suggest you read the discussion here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/14882-christianity-islam.html
 
This is the problem. You automatically link all behaviour of Muslims with their religion while ignoring other factors such as their culture, their education, the political and economic situation, etc. That is the fallacy of your argument. You fail to realize that the oppressive practices of some Muslims have their roots in culture and not religion, and it is when Muslims prefer their culture over their religion that they stray from the straight path. All the abuse of women you report goes against the Prophet's very clear statements to treat women with kindness and compassion.

As odd as it feels to be defending Christian Dove and what is an argument I wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot barge pole, it is not such a big fallacy as you are claiming. After all Muslims cannot say that their cultures have nothing to do with Islam. There has been a strong two-way influence and still is. Culture is shaped by religion, religion is interpreted through culture. Their education is even more so shaped by religion given the strong Islamic element in all Muslim societies until the West arrived. Their political and economic situation is likewise shaped by Islam, or an understanding of it. These are not two totally divorced and separate issues as the Islamic religion shapes them and they, in turn, affect how Islam is seen and practiced. So I will agree that there are aspects of culture which are not Islamic, but there are many aspects of Muslim culture which are Islamic or are reconcilable with Islam.
 
Culture is shaped by religion, religion is interpreted through culture.
That may be your perception as an outsider, but as someone living in the Muslim community, I know that many many of the problems we find in the Muslim community have their roots in culture and go against religious teachings.
Their education is even more so shaped by religion given the strong Islamic element in all Muslim societies until the West arrived.
Lack of education is the issue here.
Their political and economic situation is likewise shaped by Islam, or an understanding of it.
Not anymore. If we were speaking of the Muslim world centuries ago, then I would have agreed with you. But with corrupt governments ruling over the war-torn muslim lands that have degenerated into third-world countries, the same can no longer be said.
 
I think this is pretty much what many imams feel about women, they are "easily driven by their emotions and not by reason", therefor they should not be in charge of anything but taking care of the kitchen and the kids... What a backwards belief. This world would have been a better place if there were more female politicians...
Not if they were like Thatcher! :p
 
A good thing. But women are still not equal to men in most islamic societies, and not even in the west. We just recently had a muslim demonstration here in Oslo, and it was weird to see all the women walk alone behind all the men..

No that's not because we think women are inferior, its to do with the fact we don't allow free mixing in islam of male and female, so that we remain chaste in our thoughts. If we walked together men wouldn't stop looking at the women, it would be very uncomfortable, and your actions may become pre-meditated to impress women rather than doing something for sake of God. Women themselves would be against it as they would feel intimidated themselves, and wouldn't like men to be looking at them
Because there should be a relevant link between Muhammads teachings and status quo for muslims today. If his teachings have any value for muslims, they would have to follow him, not disregard his laws.
You're absolutely right, it's what i say to my friends all the time who don't pray 5 times-a-day, if you truly loved the Prophet you wouldn't disobey his orders. This is not Islam's fault, islam is perfect, unfortunately the followers aren't, howvever there are many muslims which do adhere to Muhammed PBUH's teachings

Islam elevated women's status, but it still seems not all are willing to accept the elevation. Take the subject of wife-beating. In Australia the police has a handbook in how to deal with people from other cultures. It says that muslim husbands who beat their wives must be treated differently from other domestic violence cases, as a matter of cultural sensitivity: “In incidents such as domestic violence,” says the handbook, “police need to have an understanding of the traditions, ways of life and habits of Muslims.”

This is how they understand the elevation of women in Islam. Wife-beating is the norm.

Muhammed PBUH told us not to beat women. Is it islam's fault then that men beat their wives, or is it lack of education on muslim's parts. Often these muslims themselves don't practice, don't know what their religion says. Let's not forget domestric violence also occurs in non-muslim families

According to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences, over 90% of married women report being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, or when the women had 'failed' to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy. Another organization stated that one woman is murdered and one woman is kidnapped in Pakistan every day.
Again lack of education and partience, going against teachings of islam
In that case I will have to asume that many muslims are unable or unwilling to read the same teachings, and just go on as their ancestors have done in the centuries before them. Perhaps some of the quotes in the quoran should be removed

Why should they be removed??:? :? Strange statement
Just because some people don't follow the laws, it doesn't change the fact that that law should still be practiced. Islam says don't drink alcohol, now if a muslim were to drink, it doesn't change the fact that a muslim shouldn't drink

The Qur'an is full of perfect guidance for those who seek it, so why be unfair on the majority of muslims who do want to seek this true guidance. I'm still perplexed by your strange statement:?
 
No. pron. (used with a pl. verb) It's a question of how you define it.
A large number of persons or things: "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). You can't honestly say that many means all, we know that most people are not called to be christians (In countries with high population such as India, China and Indonesia a majority of people is not called.. At least not yet.). And yes, a large number of muslims (but not a majority) have commited atrocities. Happens every single day, suicide bombers, civilians are being held hostage and often killed, etc.
I do not see the reason why you have to resort to an absurd attempt to distort the meaning of the word many instead of acknowledging your mistake. I, in no way, indicated that many stands for all, rather I stated that the common definition of the term many is majority.

Moreover, the perpetrators amount to less than 0.005 % of the Muslim nation. That is less than the amount of murderers loose in the USA with a population of 300 mill. and more than 20,000 murders a year.


I said: I think you should start a new religion, and call yourselves something else than Islam. Because many representatives of your faith is anything but polite and sivil...

What I mean is that the followers of Islam who is killing in the name of Allah (and many are, but certainly not the majority of the muslims..), burning embassies, destroying property of both non-religious and religious value, commiting suicide bombing, etc, have discredited the faith in such a manner that non-muslims often look upon muslims as followers of a religion with very destructive means and goals. Therefor it would have been wise for muslims to take their Quoran, disconnect from all atrocities done in the name of their holy book and make a fresh start (just as Luther did when he realized that what the catholics did was not according to The Bible, and started protesting against the catholics, hence creating the Protestant movement separating us from them, we don't even share the same Bible anymore). Because there is no way you will be able to control both the positive and the negative forces that is situated under the same umbrela: Islam. Conclusion: A new Islam based on peace where crimes towards others is strictly forbidden, no matter the cause of the crimes. Thats my personal opinion. Obviously you have the right to disagree.
That is obviously incorrect. While I do agree that many un-islamic acts have generated misconceptions; I do not agree that all non-Muslims view Islam in the same light. Some have taken the initiatve based on these un-islamic events to learn more about Islaam and this has resulted in to huge increase in converts (reverts). I will not respond to the 'catholic/protestant' analogy as this is irrelevant and too absurd for words. It is based on the assumption that most Muslims are 'terrorists'. One of the signs of close-mindedness is if one determines an entire religion based on a few bad apples.


I fail to see how you can draw that conclusion, there have been atrocities done by others as well.
Please do not sidetrack. You initialy claimed that Muslims have commited most religious atrocities in history. That is based on your words and not mine.

Beside, if you're going to comment on the [religious] atrocities commited in 20th/21th century, then look no further than the rwanda genocide where priests and nuns played a huge roll in the massacre of thousands.

This is reported in the washingtonpost:
Since the genocide, Rwandans have converted to Islam in huge numbers. Muslims now make up 14 percent of the 8.2 million people here in Africa's most Catholic nation, twice as many as before the killings began.
Many converts say they chose Islam because of the role that some Catholic and Protestant leaders played in the genocide. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews.

In contrast, many Muslim leaders and families are being honored for protecting and hiding those who were fleeing.
Full article

And here is the testimony of a rwandan convert:
"I know people in America think Muslims are terrorists, but for Rwandans they were our freedom fighters during the genocide," said Jean Pierre Sagahutu, 37, a Tutsi who converted to Islam from Catholicism after his father and nine other members of his family were slaughtered. "I wanted to hide in a church, but that was the worst place to go. Instead, a Muslim family took me. They saved my life."
Or are we forgetting the Bosnian genocide commited by the Christian Serbs. They spared the Christian communties in Slovenia and Croatia (where first the fighting erupted) while the Muslims received the Serb onslaught.

Peace
 
No that's not because we think women are inferior, its to do with the fact we don't allow free mixing in islam of male and female, so that we remain chaste in our thoughts.

I don't know who these "we" are but clearly some Muslims do have odd views about women, let me quote one of your Brothers,



MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE ANTI-ISLAMIC ARTICLES. YOU ARE FREE TO RAISE QUESTIONS CONCERNING ISLAMIC TEXTS BUT SIMPLY COPYING ANTI-ISLAMIC MATERIAL IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. IF YOU HAVE A HADITH ON WOMEN YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS, PLEASE TO DO SO IN THIS THREAD:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/15909-hadith-women.html

Clearly the Muslim world, like most cultures, contains a variety of opinions.

Muhammed PBUH told us not to beat women. Is it islam's fault then that men beat their wives, or is it lack of education on muslim's parts. Often these muslims themselves don't practice, don't know what their religion says. Let's not forget domestric violence also occurs in non-muslim families

Where did Muhammed say not to beat women? And how do you reconcile this with the Quran which seems, to me, to allow it in certain circumstances?

There is domestic violence in the kafir world, but not as much as in the Muslim world. The WHO collects data on domestic violence. The place with the highest incidence is Gaza where every year about half of all women are beaten by their husbands. They have just elected Hamas. The only kafir countries with rates as high as Muslim countries are those with a strong Muslim influence - Hispanic countries and northern India. As far as I could see from their figures, no Western country has rates as high as the lowest Muslim country. That is a lot of lack of education.
 

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