"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[جوري]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

We have read that one before.. another recycled piece.. I have always considered Atheists and Atheism in general to be blasé and linear, but must you confirm it repeatedly?

 

[جوري]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

With Christ:
He pays for them

btw.. I don't believe in sin eaters... you did the crime you'll do the time, Jesus ain't gonna help you.. you are on your own!

peace!

 

[Muslim Knight]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

A gift cannot be worked for or earned, but simply received. But it MUST be received, or you will never possess it.

The choice is yours. Choose LIFE and live forever, by receiving His GIFT today!

Peace

A gift cannot be earned, you say. It must be received you say.

Why is this God reluctant to give to Muslims unless they accept Jesus as savior. If they accept Jesus which means they have to do something first before receiving that salvation and that accounts to a work.

If truly this is a gift, then God must be able to dispense this freely without strings attached.

Let say you're bound for prison. But to receive my gift of freedom you must give me something in return.

That isn't giving gift. It's a bribe.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

A gift cannot be earned, you say. It must be received you say.

Why is this God reluctant to give to Muslims unless they accept Jesus as savior. If they accept Jesus which means they have to do something first before receiving that salvation and that accounts to a work.

If truly this is a gift, then God must be able to dispense this freely without strings attached.

Let say you're bound for prison. But to receive my gift of freedom you must give me something in return.

That isn't giving gift. It's a bribe.

Let say that after Ramadan, I gave you a big jar of sweets to celebrate. I wrapped it all up nice and pretty even with a great big bow on it. I hand it to you and you place it on the coffeetable in your living room.

A year later I return to see them just as they were a year before, completely untouched. Now, did you receive my gift or not? Would opening the jar and eating them have constituted work on your part and made it something less than a gift on my part? Belief in Jesus means that we trust him enough to actually include him as a part of our life, not just an idea that we conceptualize. But it is no more our work than it is to take and eat a piece of the candy. Indeed it is even less work, for as soon as we give permission for Jesus to be in our lives he is there, no work (on our part) to it at all and it isn't a bribe either. But if all you do is put it on the coffeetable without partaking of it, you might as well have refused the gift in the first place, becuase either way you are missing out on the sweatness of life that I was offering to you.

 

[جوري]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

hmmmmmmmmn Great Analogy Gene
How about I received your gift and was allergic to some ingredients, it wouldn't make sense that I eat the part that is actually bad for me would it?? but did end up eating the portion that did make sense as to accept your gift so you are not completely rejected, while not doing myself harm at the same time...
in a way we accept Jesus PBUH as a messenger but not as a G-D or a son of G-D.. as that part of the deal is extremely hazardous to health...
peace

 

[Muslim Knight]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Now we're talking about salvation here and where'd we all end up. Not about accepting candies. Leave it or take it. I can also take it and keeping it in my pocket without eating. There's no punishment in rejecting a candy.

Now Hell or prison is different case here. We were talking about accepting someone so that we would have to go to either. Salvation is a matter of life and death.

To choose a man, created by God, powerless on his own, as Savior. Or to choose The God Himself, who has power over all things, as Savior when indeed He is the Most Merciful who can save us from our sins and eternal torment of hellfire.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

hmmmmmmmmn Great Analogy Gene
How about I received your gift and was allergic to some ingredients, it wouldn't make sense that I eat the part that is actually bad for me would it?? but did end up eating the portion that did make sense as to accept your gift so you are not completely rejected, while not doing myself harm at the same time...
in a way we accept Jesus PBUH as a messenger but not as a G-D or a son of G-D.. as that part of the deal is extremely hazardous to health...
peace

Accept I'm not the one giving you the gift, God is. You allergy is all in your head. And God gives his gift to make you well. The sickness has made you so that you prefer to substitute something that is not as good for you as the gift God has given.

 

[جوري]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Gene you are a clever one.. But I've used EpiPen twice in my life and know that allergies are never in the head-- better stay away from things that flare them!

peace!

 

[August]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

To choose a man, created by God, powerless on his own, as Savior. Or to choose The God Himself, who has power over all things, as Savior when indeed He is the Most Merciful who can save us from our sins and eternal torment of hellfire.

To Christians, Jesus is God. God loves us so much that He came down to Earth and lived as a man, just so that He could die for our sins. Jesus is the Son of God, and was a man, but he is also God the Father. Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit together make up God. This is monotheism, it may be complicated, but it is the truth. Simplicity is not an indicator of truth.

 

[Philosopher]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

www.debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Now we're talking about salvation here and where'd we all end up. Not about accepting candies. Leave it or take it. I can also take it and keeping it in my pocket without eating. There's no punishment in rejecting a candy.

Now Hell or prison is different case here. We were talking about accepting someone so that we would have to go to either. Salvation is a matter of life and death.

To choose a man, created by God, powerless on his own, as Savior. Or to choose The God Himself, who has power over all things, as Savior when indeed He is the Most Merciful who can save us from our sins and eternal torment of hellfire.

OK. You're bound for hell or prison. God comes along and says I can get you out of here, but you have to trust me. You have to give up your life to me, only then can I save it. You claim that it is conditioned on doing all the things that Muhammad (pbuh) has laid out as the proper steps. I claim that faith in Christ is the only precondition.

And why is one significantly different from the other, again it comes back to a proper verses improper understanding of the Trinity.

In doing the things asked by Muhammad one is in essence proving to God one's own goodness. Even though Islam teaches that a just God will reject our goodness as not being worthy of him and that in the end it depends on his mercy, still Islam has a scale that balances good works vs bad deeds and this is supposed to effect the amount of punishment one receives. So it is still a works based type of salvation.

In Chrisitiany, belief in Christ is believe (i.e. trust) in the work that Jesus did on the cross as God taking upon himself the sins of humanity and absolving us of the guilt associated with them and imputing his own righteousness to us. This is true because it is God himself reconciling the world to himself in Jesus Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:19). We totally depend on him to keep his word in that regard because we do not believe that our works will get us anywhere but continue us on our way to hell.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Gene you are a clever one.. But I've used EpiPen twice in my life and know that allergies are never in the head-- better stay away from things that flare them!

peace!

Allergies are never in the head? Please, tell that to my sinus passages.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

It sounds more like not having assurance leads away from the straight path. It is like walking in darkness with the blind leading the blind as Jesus puts it and the dead burying their dead.:blind:

No, the point is that being assured of salvation is more alluring than to have any uncertainty in the matter. I am warning Muslims against abandoning the rope of Islamic faith for this false promise (in my opinion) of the Christian "plan of salvation."

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

So, we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life---right now and forever. It's not something we can really boast or be arrogant about, because WE don't deserve it. We are all sinners.

You may BELIEVE that you have eternal life because you BELIEVE the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it promises those who believe in the name of the Son of God, just like I BELIEVE that I have eternal life because I BELIEVE the Quran is the inerrant Word of God and it makes the promise for those who believe in the One God and pray, do good works, etc. Neither of us can KNOW this side of Judgement Day that we are going to Heaven.

It is not the justice of God we seek. That would be US paying for all our own sins. It is His mercy and grace that gives us FREELY His forgiveness based on the shed blood of Christ for our sins. The problem we Christians see is that you Muslims are rejecting the payment that God Himself provided for your sins. That being the case, you have to pay for all of them yourself for all eternity. There are no scales. If you have one sin---just one single sin---that you are not relying on Christ to have paid for, you will pay for it yourself for all eternity. None of your so-called "good deeds" or "good works" will ever cancel out one single sin.

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Sounds like Christians talk out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

So, we see you as being on the wrong path, headed exactly where you do NOT want to go, because what you're doing and relying on to get to heaven will not take you there.

Likewise, we see Christians as being misled and commiting the unforgivable sin of ascribing partners with Allah.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Origiinally posted by Phil12123

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You may BELIEVE that you have eternal life because you BELIEVE the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it promises those who believe in the name of the Son of God, just like I BELIEVE that I have eternal life because I BELIEVE the Quran is the inerrant Word of God and it makes the promise for those who believe in the One God and pray, do good works, etc. Neither of us can KNOW this side of Judgement Day that we are going to Heaven.


Sounds like Christians talk out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

It is a good question. One many Christians themselves ask.

The works do not save in and of themselves. Salvation is always an act of God's grace. We approach that grace in faith. But faith without works is dead. The works are an expression of thanksgiving to the one in whom we put our faith for his work of salvation in our lives. Wtihout that expression of thanksgiving, one questions the validity of the faith.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

It is a good question. One many Christians themselves ask.

The works do not save in and of themselves. Salvation is always an act of God's grace. We approach that grace in faith. But faith without works is dead. The works are an expression of thanksgiving to the one in whom we put our faith for his work of salvation in our lives. Wtihout that expression of thanksgiving, one questions the validity of the faith.

As Muslims our view of works and faith is very similar to that for we are aware that works without faith are worthless. We do not believe any person could ever perform enough good works to earn his way into heaven, but we do have faith Allah(swt) will reward us in accordance to his mercy and not in accordance of what we have earned.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

All hail the flying spaghetti monster.

In all seriousness, I'd rather avoid heaven living with perverts and mass murderers and rather say in hell with Gandhi.

You mean, "stay" in hell with Gandhi, right? Well, you will get your wish. God doesn't force heaven on anyone, except maybe aborted babies, etc. who had no choice in the matter.

The only "perverts and mass murderers" who will be in heaven are those who have been forgiven and have become a new creature or a "new creation" ---therefore they are no longer perverts and mass murderers.

2 Corinthians 5:17-- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

Actually, anyone who goes to heaven will be a sinner (to one degree or another) who has been forgiven. So the key is forgiveness of sins. You only get that as a free gift from God which has been paid for IN FULL by Christ and His atoning death on the cross.

So, if YOU get to heaven (if you wanted to go), it will only be because you have been forgiven. But that will never happen without Christ and your receiving His free gift of eternal life.

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

btw.. I don't believe in sin eaters... you did the crime you'll do the time, Jesus ain't gonna help you.. you are on your own!

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!! If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy. You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain. So, what is your answer to the sin problem? Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible. NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour. And the longer we live, the more they all mount up. So, how are you ever getting to heaven? By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it. What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

A gift cannot be earned, you say. It must be received you say.

Why is this God reluctant to give to Muslims unless they accept Jesus as savior. If they accept Jesus which means they have to do something first before receiving that salvation and that accounts to a work.

If truly this is a gift, then God must be able to dispense this freely without strings attached.

Let say you're bound for prison. But to receive my gift of freedom you must give me something in return.

That isn't giving gift. It's a bribe.

Let's use your prison analogy. What if I say (and it's true) that I am the governor and I can give you a full pardon and you can walk out of the prison a free man, with your prison record totally expunged, so you are not only free but also have a completely clean record? But what if I say, to receive your pardon, all you have to do, is admit you committed the crime, say you're sorry, and say to me, Yes, I accept your pardon! Wouldn't that still be a free gift? Admitting your crime and saying you're sorry would be like repentance. Saying you accept the pardon would be like faith---believing I am the governor and that I really have a valid pardon to give you. Because, after all, if I really don't have the authority or power to give you a pardon, you can say or do anything and it will not get you a pardon or the freedom it brings.

That pardon is available to all Muslims, actually to everyone on this earth. But if they don't accept the Giver of the pardon for Who HE really is, it is like saying, you aren't the governor and you can't give me a pardon. Instead I will work my way out of this prison...being a model prisoner and my good behavior will get me out. NOT!!! The "strings" are the same for everyone---repentance and faith. But beyond that, it is FREE and cannot be worked for or deserved.

Peace

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!! If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy. You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain. So, what is your answer to the sin problem? Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible. NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour. And the longer we live, the more they all mount up.

yes of course that only with justice we go to hell, bc we cannot reach the level of doing good deeds to enter Heaven, so Allah swt multiplies our good deeds, even if we just had an intention of it, and also through his mercy we get to heaven, unless you join Allah swt in partnership and died like that, then you are not forgiven. So basically we do the best we can, following his guidance sent through messengers, (at this time, the guidance through Muhammed saws), and then we hope we get reward and mercy from Allah and enter Jannah, and at the same time fear from hellfire and make sure we go away from things that lead to hellfire.

So, how are you ever getting to heaven? By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it. What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!

lol, I can see how frostrated you are, you seems to be pretty nervous, the way you expressed yourself, but it is showing your ignorance , be a little bit smarter. and as for jihad, there are ways which you earn paradise, if you die in the battlefield, killed by the enemy you go shaheed(martyr), u got any problem with that? you got any problem fighting for your own country and get killed by your enemy (i'm not talking about suicide bombers)???? but the difference between you and us, is that we do Jihad fisabililah, you do jihad fisabili shaitan, bc we both do jihad.