"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Peace Phil,

I just have to respond to this. although I know you will disagree, but that is your right and I would not expect you not to disagree.

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!!

Unless God(swt) truly is all just and merciful and will only judge us in accordance to our abilities, intentions and strengths. Which it seems a merciful God(swt) would do.

If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy.

That is only fair and to be expected. we can not sin and honestly justify getting off scott free. We even teach our children that they will pay for damages they do.

You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain.

None of us has the ability to do sufficient good to erase even our smallest sin.

So, what is your answer to the sin problem?

The unlimited mercy of Allah(swt)

Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible.

Of course not. None of us can offer a single thing that God(swt) needs.

NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour.

Probably every second and with every thought

And the longer we live, the more they all mount up. So, how are you ever getting to heaven?

By having faith that Allah(swt) will give us guidance on the path and that He will judge us from his eyes of pure mercy and will reward us with the things He has promised us.

By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it.

I believe most in fact over 90% of the world's Muslims would say that will most often lead to a very fast trip to eternal hellfire

What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!Peace

Not on anything I can do, but I do have faith that Allah(swt) has the power to forgive my sins and that He will Judge me with the purest of justice and perfect mercy.

 

[جوري]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Having good intent, and doing the best you can, that is how you earn your place in heaven-- if you think you can for instance [(bang your way through life)-al la mode of Anna Nicole Smith] and be saved "through Christ" simply because she said I love you Jesus, then I truly feel sorry for you. I had written quite an extensive piece but unfortunately lost it, as my computer froze, no matter.. Religion should be simple, it should satisfy both heart and mind. A G-D creating himself, having a son, a wife and a ghost, doesn't make good logical sense to me. Religion should please the rational mind. After extensive questioning, you'll arrive to either, there is a G-D logically, though you might not understand his nature, or there isn't and everything was directed by a billion positive chances, that favored us and favored this earth out of all the other gaseous planets. from there onward everything else save the nature of G-D which is beyond comprehension for our human mind, should make sense-- A G-D with a son and a wife, doesn't make sense, a G-D that eats people's sins doesn't make sense, a G-D that takes away your free will doesn't make sense, A G-D with human needs doesn't make sense, a G-D that prays to himself in the gardens of Gethsemane doesn't make sense, a G-D that curses (himself) I assume after not having found a tree with dates in the distance, in the earth that he supposedly created doesn't make sense, a G-D that asks you to keep commandments to another G-D, yet calls himself G-D doesn't make sense... I can go on further but would be a terrible transgression to both the nature of Jesus PBUH and an even worst transgression toward Allah, exalted is he above all that you ascribe to him --- since the series of divine revelations were given to man-kind. Each one spoke of the nature of G-D being one not just (wahid) but (ahad,) I ask even the Muslim members here what is the difference between the term

أَحَدٌ​

and

واحِد​

and that is how G-D descibes himself.... I really want an answer to that question the difference between wahid

واحِد​

and Ahad

أَحَدٌ​

Which is how G-D describes himself in the Quran, both terms denote one in Arabic, but one has a more descriptive meaning and describes the nature of Allah..
with that I leave with these Noble words from the Quran, about Justice, and deeds.....

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}​

[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}​

[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}​

[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}​

[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}​

[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}​

[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}​

[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}​

[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


*****
peace!

 

[August]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Having good intent, and doing the best you can, that is how you earn your place in heaven-- if you think you can for instance [(bang your way through life)-al la mode of Anna Nicole Smith] and be saved "through Christ" simply because she said I love you Jesus, then I truly feel sorry for you.

Not all Christians believe this. Certain branches of Protestantism do, as you say, believe that you can pretty much do whatever as long as you really believe in Jesus. As a Catholic, I believe that you must have faith in Christ, but what you do also matters. "Faith without works is dead."

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

yes of course that only with justice we go to hell, bc we cannot reach the level of doing good deeds to enter Heaven, so Allah swt multiplies our good deeds, even if we just had an intention of it, and also through his mercy we get to heaven,

Here is the problem I see with the first part of your logic.

1) You admit that with justice we go to hell
2) You admit that we cannot reach the lovel of doing good deeds to enter heaven
But then (3) you claim that Allah multiplies our good deeds


My problem is that if in point #2 no amount of good deeds is enough to get us to heaven, then the fact that Allah multiplies them doesn't change anything. It is still true that no amount of good deeds, even an infinite amount is an amount, is enough to get us to heaven. So there is no way to heaven through good deeds.

4) then you add, and also through his mercy we get to heaven.

My comment is that it would seem that one should not say also through his mercy, but only through his mercy, if in fact your previous points were all true.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You may BELIEVE that you have eternal life because you BELIEVE the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it promises those who believe in the name of the Son of God, just like I BELIEVE that I have eternal life because I BELIEVE the Quran is the inerrant Word of God and it makes the promise for those who believe in the One God and pray, do good works, etc. Neither of us can KNOW this side of Judgement Day that we are going to Heaven.

Do you really believe you HAVE eternal life, right now, a present possession? Does the Quran really give you that promise? You say you can't KNOW this side of Judgment Day that you're going to Heaven. So you don't really KNOW that you HAVE eternal life NOW. You have to wait till Judgment Day to know it. Only then will you KNOW if you believed enough, prayed enough, did enough good works, etc. to go to Heaven. Right? So you can't have real assurance that you're going to Heaven. You might not have prayed enough, worked enough, etc.

You know you have to have your sins forgiven or you will never get into Heaven. What are you doing that you think will get them forgiven? What definite promise is there in the Quran that any of your sins will be forgiven, NOW or EVER? Can you really KNOW that any of them are forgiven NOW, or do you have to wait till Judgment Day to know if a particular sin has been forgiven?

Likewise, we see Christians as being misled and commiting the unforgivable sin of ascribing partners with Allah.

Genesis 1:26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 3:22. Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever''
23. therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

Would you please comment on the meaning of the "Us" and "Our". It would appear that God Himself has associated with Himself others. Also:

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

We should retitle this thread, "Views on Atonement for Sin."

Peace Phil,

Originally Posted by Phil12123
If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!!

Unless God(swt) truly is all just and merciful and will only judge us in accordance to our abilities, intentions and strengths. Which it seems a merciful God(swt) would do.

And to whom will Allah be merciful? Is there a way to know in advance? Or is it all a crap shoot? Will Allah be merciful to all persons? To all Muslims? To all "good" Muslims (whatever the means, and however that is deteremined)?

The Christian answer is that God has promised grace to all who are in relationship with him through Jesus Christ. To me, this seems reasonable too. God could be merciful to everyone, but that seems highly unlikely. For then why should God suggest to any of us that we should folllow his will, if he does not plan to hold us accountable to it? But in holding us accountable we all fail to pass the test and none of us can be saved based on our actions. So, it takes God's action to save us. The Muslim answers that it is simply a decision that God makes. The Christian answers that this decision is influenced by the nature of our relationship with God. Now, I actually see that this is true for the Muslim as well. The nature of the Muslim's relationship is one of submission. But that gets back to human obedience and the problems we have in none of us being good enough on our own. So, Woodrow adds that God looks at our intentions as well. Perhaps Muslims can have good intentions and just fail in the area of following through, but I honestly wonder whether that describes reality. My experience is that there are times that I know the difference between being in God's will and being out of God's will and I still choose that which I know is not in God's will. If this is the case for others as it is for me, then none of us are perfect in intentions either, and we are right back where we started.

So, then what does one do. Well, some have said that God weighs our deeds and intentions, but this is the same as saying that we can be good enough. That somehow the scales of our actions will tip in our favor. And yet that is contradictory to what has already been expressed regarding our inability to measure up. So, again, we are simply back to depending wholly on God's unmerited mercy toward us, and that is the Christian definition of grace.

So ultimately both Islam and Christianity are grace based salvation experiences. The difference between them is whether or not Christ can play a role in anyone's life other than his own. The Muslim says "No, we are each judged on our own actions." But that gets us back to works again. The Christian says, "Yes, we are judged on the basis of our relationship with God in Christ, because of the cross." But honestly, if the Christian will look at it more deeply, that also gets us back to works. However, this time it is not the person's work, but Christ's work. Christ being not God's partner, but humanities partner.

Is this fair, that Christ's work should count for us? Is this justice? No. But then again, we are not talking about fairness or justice any more, we are talking about mercy. Is this mercy? Indeed it is, toward us, while his justice is satisfied by Christ's offering of his own life in our place. Which again isn't fair, and that is why it is called a sacrifice. It wasn't something Christ had to do, it was something he willed to do in order that by his work (a work we ourselves could not do) he might reconcile humanity to God.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul. In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Here is the problem I see with the first part of your logic.

1) You admit that with justice we go to hell
2) You admit that we cannot reach the lovel of doing good deeds to enter heaven
But then (3) you claim that Allah multiplies our good deeds


My problem is that if in point #2 no amount of good deeds is enough to get us to heaven, then the fact that Allah multiplies them doesn't change anything. It is still true that no amount of good deeds, even an infinite amount is an amount, is enough to get us to heaven. So there is no way to heaven through good deeds.

4) then you add, and also through his mercy we get to heaven.

My comment is that it would seem that one should not say also through his mercy, but only through his mercy, if in fact your previous points were all true.

lollll, you missed a point in here. if you don't try to do good deeds, how are you going to get mercy of Allah? now for multiplying the deeds, the thing is that the more good deeds we do, the more we get closer to Allah swt, the more we fear and love him. So, we do deeds, which Allah swt multiplies them, out of his mercy, so on the day of judgement, we put them in our scale, and if they weight a lot, means that we enter jannah, but here is what I mean by "only with deeds you enter hell", bc if you do good deeds which weight enough to enter Jannah and then say "God owes me jannah, i have done good deeds and he is obligated to put me in Jannah" , than you will enter Hell, so you have to do good deeds a lot (which Allah swt help u by multiplying them), so on the day of judgement you scale weights to enter Jannah, but u also depend on Allah's mercy, bc you can't rebel against Allah with the claim that I have enough deeds to enter Jannah, bc if he doesn't want he won't put u . I don't want to enter in detail bc I am not qualified to give such explanations since this is part of Aqeedah, and is a dangerous topic to define things.
may Allah swt forgive me if I said something wrong.

I know you're behaving like those kids, who try to hit you back the same way

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

let's say someone says to you that if you help him on the coursework, and he is satisfied he will give you 1 milion dollars, but you don't know the amount. Now, the help for the course work is paid too much 1 milion dollars, so basically the reward for the coursework help is very very large. Now you try your best to help on the coursework. If you don't try to help him, you don't get the money, if you try to help him, then we go to the second stage where the person can say "you helped me, but i'm not satisfied" = (he's not being generous), but if he has mercy then he will say "you have tried your best, i've given you instructions how to help me, so I'm gonna be generous and give you 1million pounds". So he gives you instructions (helps you) to achieve the level of staysfying him in coursework help, but even if you satisfy him, it's still up to him to give you the 1 million dollars. and if you don't try to help him, you're not going to get the chance to win 1 million pounds, so you don't get them. So final point is that you try to help him, and at the end he can decide wether he want's to give u the million pounds or not. but you coursework is not that worthy to be paid 1 million pounds, so the guy is trying to be generous, and he doesn't owe you to pay that much for just a coursework.


you have to buy the ticket in order to get the chance to win on lottery. the more tickets you buy the more chance you have to win, but at the end you dont' know wether you're gonna win or not. if you don't buy a ticket u don't get the chance to win.
btw, judgement is not lottery. astagfirullah. i just took an example

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Peace Gene,
I'm only going to address part of your post. Naturally I picked and selected what I like.

We should retitle this thread, "Views on Atonement for Sin."

Is this fair, that Christ's work should count for us? Is this justice? No. But then again, we are not talking about fairness or justice any more, we are talking about mercy. Is this mercy? Indeed it is, toward us, while his justice is satisfied by Christ's offering of his own life in our place. Which again isn't fair, and that is why it is called a sacrifice. It wasn't something Christ had to do, it was something he willed to do in order that by his work (a work we ourselves could not do) he might reconcile humanity to God.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul. In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

I believe you have summed up our differences quite well except for the last sentence.

Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

I don't see that we don't want his justice as we believe his justice is infinitely fair. I will say that none of us want what we have earned as we could never earn our way into heaven. But we do want God(swt) to judge all with perfect justice. Perfect justice is very intangible and does not necessarily equate with equality or our concept of fairness. But part of it has to do with what God(swt) has promised the Believers he will reward us with.

In many ways your and my concepts of God's(swt) Justice and Mercy are very similar.

we both believe God(swt) has provided a means for us to enter Heaven.

we both believe He has sent guidance.

we both believe our sins can be forgiven.

I say he has done and can do that simply by willing it to be.

You believe that he sent his son to die for us to do this.

I am not a scholar and can make errors, but those are my concepts astagfirullah



I also like your title suggestion. I agree that would be a better title for this thread.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

As Muslims our view of works and faith is very similar to that for we are aware that works without faith are worthless. We do not believe any person could ever perform enough good works to earn his way into heaven, but we do have faith Allah(swt) will reward us in accordance to his mercy and not in accordance of what we have earned.

Yes, Br. Woodrow and GraceSeeker I agree with what you are saying. This is different from the typical Christian perception that Muslims gain Paradise by trying to "earn" it. We rely upon the mercy of Allah at least as much as Christians do.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

If Jesus "ain't gonna help" me, then I am doomed to pay for my own sins for all eternity, and SO ARE YOU!!!!! If HE didn't pay for them, WE have to. It is as simple as that. There is no other remedy.

That is true ONLY if the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that it is an accurate reflection of God's Will for there to be a "blood payment" required to atone for sin. We Muslims believe that Allah can forgive or punish according to His Divine Will. There is nothing (sin) that I can do and not hope for the forgiveness of Allah as long as I repent and don't ascribe partners with Him - which is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state.

You can't do enough good works to erase any of your sins. They still remain. So, what is your answer to the sin problem? Satan would love for you to think if you work REAL hard and be REAL "good" you will get to heaven. NOT!!! That isn't possible. NONE of us are, or ever will be, good enough to deserve heaven. We are all sinners!! In word, thought, or deed. And probably EVERY DAY, if not every hour. And the longer we live, the more they all mount up. So, how are you ever getting to heaven?

No Muslim will say that he is good enough to deserve Heaven. We ask for forgiveness from Allah and trust that He will in fact forgive us. We believe that Allah's Mercy will be sufficient on that Day.

An hadith in Sahih Muslim Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: There are one hundred (parts of) mercy of Allah and He has sent down out of these one part of mercy upon the jinn and human beings and the insects and it is because of this (one part) that they love one another, show kindness to one another and even the beast treats its young one with affection, and Allah has reserved ninety-nine parts of mercy with which He would treat His servants on the Day of Resurrection.

By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad? All the suicide bombers are depending on that; they are staking their eternity on it. What are you staking your eternity on? How "good" you can be? Good luck!!!

Peace

Do you honestly believe that this concept is accepted by any other than the extremists who do horrible things in the name of religion? If so, it shows how little you know about Islam.

I am staking eternity on believing that there is only One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal and on striving to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for how to worship the Creator and how to live my life. I trust that if I approach Allah on Judgement Day without ascribing partners with Him, that He is fully willing and capable of forgiving me and granting me Paradise by His Divine Mercy.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

So basically we do the best we can, following his guidance sent through messengers, (at this time, the guidance through Muhammed saws), and then we hope we get reward and mercy from Allah and enter Jannah, and at the same time fear from hellfire and make sure we go away from things that lead to hellfire.

So, though you are a sinner, perhaps every minute of every day, as Woodrow would surmise, you hope for Allah's mercy to overlook all those sins and not hold you accountable, i.e., not make you pay for them? Then what about justice? Does Allah's justice cease when his mercy applies?

and as for jihad, there are ways which you earn paradise, if you die in the battlefield, killed by the enemy you go shaheed(martyr), u got any problem with that? you got any problem fighting for your own country and get killed by your enemy (i'm not talking about suicide bombers)???? but the difference between you and us, is that we do Jihad fisabililah, you do jihad fisabili shaitan, bc we both do jihad.

Sorry, you'll have to explain "Jihad fisabililah" and "jihad fisabili" to me.

No, I don't have a problem fighting for my own country and getting killed by an enemy, but THAT will never "earn paradise"!! Again, nothing I do, no good works, ever cancels out my bad works, my sins. And that is absolutely necessary for anyone to enter paradise. Woodrow is correct in saying the suicide bombers are taking a fast trip to hell-fire. Certainly murdering innocent people (itself a grievous sin) does nothing to cancel out all the person's other sins, but simply adds to the sin list. So, NO, there aren't "ways which you earn paradise."

Peace

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

So, though you are a sinner, perhaps every minute of every day, as Woodrow would surmise, you hope for Allah's mercy to overlook all those sins and not hold you accountable, i.e., not make you pay for them? Then what about justice? Does Allah's justice cease when his mercy applies?

Allah applies the justice when the deeds are put on the scale, which means Allah is just, bc nothing from bad/good is substracted, everything that you have done in your life (even the smaller than the size of atom as it says in the Qur'an)will be shown to you with proof, so this means that Allah swt is just, and he doesn't hide or loose someone's good deeds or bad. It wouldn't be good for you if you and your friend working the same thing, and then people to recognize your friend's work, but to say to u "we don't know that u did anything", so they are being injust for hiding your work wether it is bad or good. So Allah is just on bringing those deeds, and punishing people acording to the level of evil that did, Allah does not punish them more than the they did bad things, but he rewards people who did good, with more than they did goods, see his mercy?. So when you deeds are put on scale, of course they are not worthy to return the goods that Allah has made to you, also to thank Allah, but it shows that you tried to thank Allah in the most possible way that a human can, even his capability is not in the level to return the thanks as much as Allah has bestowed goods on us, cuz you can't count them, so then Allah gives mercy to you.

If you child does something horrible you ground them.
If they do something good, your love increases more, and you give them 10$ as a gift. does that mean that you are being unjust, or you just is ceased bc you are giving your child a gift? of course not.

Sorry, you'll have to explain "Jihad fisabililah" and "jihad fisabili" to me.

No, I don't have a problem fighting for my own country and getting killed by an enemy, but THAT will never "earn paradise"!! Again, nothing I do, no good works, ever cancels out my bad works, my sins. And that is absolutely necessary for anyone to enter paradise. Woodrow is correct in saying the suicide bombers are taking a fast trip to hell-fire. Certainly murdering innocent people (itself a grievous sin) does nothing to cancel out all the person's other sins, but simply adds to the sin list. So, NO, there aren't "ways which you earn paradise."

Jihad fisabililah = Jihad in the way of Allah
Jihad fisabili shaitan = Jihad in the way of the Devil.

Don't mix sucicide bombers with jihad, I'm not talking about them. But as for soldiers who die on battlefield , getting killed from the opposite force , if that soldier had the intention to protect his country or his wealth , and was sincere that it was doing for Allah swt and not show up, then he is granted Jannah. and in every country those who get killed are honored , isn't it? so same thing, in Islam if you get killed, then you get honored by going to Jannah. Also the benifitons that you get. but don't mix this with suicide bombers, i'm not talking about them. I'm talking only what Qur'an and Sunnah speaks about.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;

So, how are you ever getting to heaven? By dying while you're killing a bunch of innocent people in some jihad?

Don't be illogical ---pl. Becuase of Hitler or Crusaders , i have any right to put blame on Jesus (p) or Christianity ?

Holy Quran :

Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.


And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely

[Qur'an 5:32]


for salvation , Muslims depend of God's mercy ....what's ur problem with that ?

sure , tell this to Iraqi & Afghan people.

The so-called follwers of Jesus (p) have killed thousands & thousands ( if not million ) innocnet lives there. Only God knows how more to die there

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Do you really believe you HAVE eternal life, right now, a present possession?

I would not go so far as to say that "I am without a doubt saved," but I believe that my beliefs about God and the Unseen are True and that I am on the Staight Path toward Paradise. However, I don't know what my end will be. I don't know whether I will turn from Islam as I did Christianity over 25 years ago. I don't know if I will die as a Muslim - submitting my will to Allah, but that is my prayer.

Does the Quran really give you that promise?

Yes, many times - to quote a few:

Quran 35:7 Those who disbelieve shall have a terrible punishment, and those who believe and do good deeds shall have forgiveness and a magnificent
reward.

Quran 14:23 Those who believe and do good deeds will be admitted to Paradise, beneath which rivers flow, to live therein forever with the permission of their Rabb, and their greetings therein will be: "Peace!"

You say you can't KNOW this side of Judgment Day that you're going to Heaven. So you don't really KNOW that you HAVE eternal life NOW. You have to wait till Judgment Day to know it. Only then will you KNOW if you believed enough, prayed enough, did enough good works, etc. to go to Heaven. Right?
So you can't have real assurance that you're going to Heaven. You might not have prayed enough, worked enough, etc.

No, only then will I know if Allah will have Mercy on me or not. Believe me, I fear that Day because I know what I deserve. Of course, you don't know my shortcomings as I do.

You know you have to have your sins forgiven or you will never get into Heaven. What are you doing that you think will get them forgiven? What definite promise is there in the Quran that any of your sins will be forgiven, NOW or EVER? Can you really KNOW that any of them are forgiven NOW, or do you have to wait till Judgment Day to know if a particular sin has been forgiven?

I trust that Allah will fulfill His promises.

Quran 3:132-136 Obey Allah and His Rasool so that you may find mercy. Rush towards the forgiveness from your Rabb to a Paradise as vast as the Heavens and the earth which is prepared for the righteous people; they are those who spend generously in the way of Allah, whether they are in prosperity or in adversity, who control their anger and forgive other people for Allah loves such charitable people, who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done. Such people will be rewarded with forgiveness from their Rabb plus gardens beneath which the rivers flow, to live therein forever. How excellent is the reward for such laborers!

Would you please comment on the meaning of the "Us" and "Our". It would appear that God Himself has associated with Himself others.

I am sorry, but I have no comment. This is a mystery to me as similar terminology is also in the Quran.

Also:

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Peace

I have no way of knowing that Allah said this as it does not agree with the Quran.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;


an interesting conversation ---pl. enjoy


Far Exalted is He Above Having a Son

One day, al-Baqilani - a Muslim Scholar and judge - entered the court of the Roman Emperor while he was among his monks and priests.



al-Baqilani mockingly said to one of the priests:



"How are you? How are your family and children?"



The Roman Emperor exclaimed: "We were told that you are the most articulate among the Muslim scholars and the most knowledgable; don't you know that our priests are deemed above having a wife and children?"



al-Baqilani answered: "How is it that you can't deem Allah above having a wife and children, but you can them? As if they were more sacred than Allah!"



The Roman Emperor was moved by what he heard and from then on felt a great deal of respect for al-Baqilani.




http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=130

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

That is true ONLY if the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that it is an accurate reflection of God's Will for there to be a "blood payment" required to atone for sin.

Agreed. But what if it IS true? Do you agree that if that is the case, you are doomed and have no chance of entering Heaven, having rejected the blood payment that Jesus made on your behalf?

We Muslims believe that Allah can forgive or punish according to His Divine Will. There is nothing (sin) that I can do and not hope for the forgiveness of Allah as long as I repent and don't ascribe partners with Him - which is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state.

No Muslim will say that he is good enough to deserve Heaven. We ask for forgiveness from Allah and trust that He will in fact forgive us. We believe that Allah's Mercy will be sufficient on that Day.

So, you are basically hoping that your repentance and Allah's mercy will cancel out his justice and not hold you accountable to pay for your sins?

Do you honestly believe that this concept is accepted by any other than the extremists who do horrible things in the name of religion? If so, it shows how little you know about Islam.

I was merely using that as an example of what some Muslims are depending on to get them to Heaven. BTW, where do these "extremists" get that idea? Is it not from the Quran? For some reason they are totally convinced of the truth of it, and willing to die for it.

I am staking eternity on believing that there is only One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal and on striving to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for how to worship the Creator and how to live my life. I trust that if I approach Allah on Judgement Day without ascribing partners with Him, that He is fully willing and capable of forgiving me and granting me Paradise by His Divine Mercy.

So, you won't be seeking justice, but strictly mercy. BTW, according to the Bible, the Person you will be standing before at the Judgment will be none other than Jesus Christ:

John 5:22. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23. "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
[side note: the Greek word for "just as" means "to the same extent as" and is used thusly in Luke 6:31--"And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise" (the so-called "Golden Rule"). So we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father. Not only is that NOT some unforgiveable sin but it is a command, so NOT doing it is a sin.]

At that point, if you had not made Him your Savior and Lord before getting there, there will be at least two things that will occur:

1. You will bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father:

Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2. He will say something to you...

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I would not go so far as to say that "I am without a doubt saved," but I believe that my beliefs about God and the Unseen are True and that I am on the Staight Path toward Paradise. However, I don't know what my end will be. I don't know whether I will turn from Islam as I did Christianity over 25 years ago. I don't know if I will die as a Muslim - submitting my will to Allah, but that is my prayer.

Yes, many times - to quote a few:

Quran 35:7 Those who disbelieve shall have a terrible punishment, and those who believe and do good deeds shall have forgiveness and a magnificent
reward.

Quran 14:23 Those who believe and do good deeds will be admitted to Paradise, beneath which rivers flow, to live therein forever with the permission of their Rabb, and their greetings therein will be: "Peace!"


No, only then will I know if Allah will have Mercy on me or not. Believe me, I fear that Day because I know what I deserve. Of course, you don't know my shortcomings as I do.


I trust that Allah will fulfill His promises.

Quran 3:132-136 Obey Allah and His Rasool so that you may find mercy. Rush towards the forgiveness from your Rabb to a Paradise as vast as the Heavens and the earth which is prepared for the righteous people; they are those who spend generously in the way of Allah, whether they are in prosperity or in adversity, who control their anger and forgive other people for Allah loves such charitable people, who, if they commit an indecency or wrong their own souls, earnestly remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins; for no one can forgive sins except Allah, and those who do not knowingly persist in something wrong which they have done. Such people will be rewarded with forgiveness from their Rabb plus gardens beneath which the rivers flow, to live therein forever. How excellent is the reward for such laborers!

I am sorry, but I have no comment. This is a mystery to me as similar terminology is also in the Quran.


I have no way of knowing that Allah said this as it does not agree with the Quran.

You have no way of knowing. I didn't know you used to be a Christian. I'll be honest with you; I don't understand how you could leave Christianity to be a Muslim. It fries my brain trying to understand this. How could you not have even more doubts as a Muslim than you had as a Christian? Especially when Muhammad had doubted his own revelations, which started the Islam religion. He even thought the source of it was demonic in nature and that he was demon possessed. If he doubted the source of his revelation how much more would or should I? Out of all the great prophets in the Bible never did one wonder about the origins of their revelations. They struggled processing them, but never did they doubt its origins like Muhammad did. What caused or strengthened him to accept that he was authentically hearing from God was his wives. One said he would be a prophet of this nation, and the other wives believed his visions were authentic because of his uncontrolled convulsions. The irony of it is, he received the witness of his spirituality from women (wives) whose spirituality he considered to be half the witness of a man. In fact, he believed it was due to the lack or deficiency of a woman's mind; yet, it was Khadija who confirms his revelations. Furthermore, Muhammad received his first revelation vision during the month of Ramadan; therefore, no one could attack his vision without attacking the holiest of months in the calendar year. One of his most devoted wives was Aishah who he married at six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. Imagine if she was your daughter. I am getting my info from a book called "Unveiling Islam." It’s an insider’s view at Muslim life and beliefs written by Caner who was a born and raised a devout Muslim. He is now a strong Christian. Paul says, "You did run well. Who has bewitched you?" :-[

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

GraceSeeker, this was a great post, but I will have to comment on your ending.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul.

You lost me on this one. We see Allah as both Just and Merciful, but we also see it as a Judgment Day. Just as a person on trial does not know if he will be found guilty or innocent until the jury returns its verdict, so also the jury is still out as to whether I will be judged with the wheat or the tare.

In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

Rather we believe there will be plenty of justice dealt out that Day, we just pray to not bear the brunt of Allah's Wrath rather to receive His Mercy. We in fact believe Allah "does work that way" to be willing and able to forgive with a figurative sweep of the hand. If my bad deeds outweigh my good on the Scale of Justice, then I may be forgiven for my sins or I may be punished for them in Hell until that "sin-debt" has been paid. Who can deny the Judgement of Allah? We Muslims believe that if we believe in Allah and associate no partners with Him, that believers that are sent to Hell will eventually be brought out. However, who wants to spend a single millisecond in Hell?

May Allah forgive me if I have mis-spoken.

 

[Keltoi]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You have no way of knowing. I didn't know you used to be a Christian. I'll be honest with you; I don't understand how you could leave Christianity to be a Muslim. It fries my brain trying to understand this. How could you not have even more doubts as a Muslim than you had as a Christian? Especially when Muhammad had doubted his own revelations, which started the Islam religion. He even thought the source of it by thinking it was demonic in nature and that he was demon possessed. If he doubted the source of his revelation how much more would or should I? Out of all the great prophets in the Bible never did one wonder about the origins of their revelations. They struggled processing them, but never did they doubt its origins like Muhammad did. What caused or strengthened him to accept that he was authentically hearing from God was his wives. One said he would be a prophet of this nation, and the other wives believed his visions were authentic because of his uncontrolled convulsions. The irony of it is, he received the witness of his spirituality from women (wives) whose spirituality he considered to be half the witness of a man. In fact, he believed it was due to the lack or deficiency of a woman's mind; yet, it was Khadija who confirms his revelations. Furthermore, Muhammad received his first revelation vision during the month of Ramadan; therefore, no one could attack his vision without attacking the holiest of months in the calendar year. One of his most devoted wives was Aishah who he married at six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. Imagine if she was your daughter. I am getting my info from a book called "Unveiling Islam." It’s an insider’s view at Muslim life and beliefs written by Caner who was a born and raised a devout Muslim. He is now a strong Christian. Paul says, "You did run well. Who has bewitched you?" :-[

I find this to be slightly offensive. I realize that some Muslims on this forum post insulting things like this against Christians all the time, but that doesn't mean you should stoop to their level. Taking statements or opinions from an anti-Islam book is no different than when the reverse occurs. As my brother in faith, I hope you keep the high road. Yes, we believe Islam to be a false religion, just as Muslims believe Christianity to be a false religion, but posts like this only add to the combative nature between us. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.