"Views on Atonement for Sin."

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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Have you heard of "Satanic verse" This is where Muhammad oscillates bwt revelations from Satan and Allah: "Did you consider al-hat and al-Uzza And al-Manat, the third, the other? Those are the swans exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected." As I had mentioned, this shocked Muhammad's disciples because there is a concession to paganism here. Muhammad withdrew his revelation because Satan deceived him. Muhammad also improved on God’s word. In other words, he changed Allah’s wisdom for his own on many occasions. The Prophet’s nonchalant emendations can be found in the hadith. For instance, when the Prophet said, “And God is mighty and wise” (aziz, hakim), ‘Abdollah b. Abi Sarh suggested writing down “knowing and wise” (alim, hakim) the Prophet had no objection. Muhammad has done this on other ocassions as well. As a result ‘Abdollah renounced Islam and joined the Qoray****es. He felt that it is an errant spirit that could modify the word of Allah.

I believe that you are misled and misinformed. If you are sincere you will you will take the time to read this post and you will see that what you referred to as "Satanic Verses" was actually an slanderous insertion by the early enemies of Islam to discredit Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He did not withdraw this so-called revelation or modify it - these are words of others that they claimed Muhammad (pbuh) said. I could find no reference to your other claims.

Historical background in Alim software for Surah 53.
The details of the period of revelation as given above point to the conditions in which this Surah was revealed. During the first five years of his appointment as a Prophet, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had been extending invitation to Allah's Religion by presenting the Divine Revelations before the people only in private and restricted meetings and assemblies. During this whole period he could never have a chance to recite the Quran before a common gathering openly, mainly because of the strong opposition and resistance from the disbelievers. They were well aware of how magnetic and captivating was the Holy Prophet's personality and his way of preaching and how impressive were the Revelations of the Quran. Therefore, they tried their best to avoid hearing it themselves and to stop others also from hearing it and to suppress his invitation by false propaganda by spreading every kind of suspicion against him. For this object, on the one hand, they were telling the people that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had gone astray and was now bent upon misleading others as well; on the other hand, they would raise an uproar whenever he tried to present the Quran before the people so that no one could know what it was for which he was being branded as a misled and misguided person.

Such were the conditions when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) suddenly stood up one day to make a speech in the sacred precincts of the Ka'bah, where a large number of the Quraish had gathered together. Allah at that time made him deliver this discourse, which we have now in the form of the Surah An-Najm with us. Such was the intensity of the impression that when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) started reciting it the opponents were so completely overwhelmed that they could not think of raising any disorder, and when at the conclusion he fell down in prostration, they too fell down in prostration along with him. Later they felt great remorse at the weakness they had involuntarily shown. The people also started taunting them to the effect that whereas they had been forbidding others to listen to the Quran, that day not only had they themselves listened to it, with complete absorption but had even fallen down in prostration along with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). At last, they had to invent a story in order to get rid of the people's taunt and ridicule. They said, "After he had recited afara'ait-ul Lata wal Uzza wa Manat ath-thalitha-al ukhra, we heard from Muhammad the words: tilk al-gharaniqa- tal-'ula, wa anna shafa'at-u-hunna latarja: 'They are exalted goddesses: indeed, their intercession may be expected.' From this we understood that Muhammad had returned to our faith." As a matter of fact, only a mad person could think that in the context of this Surah the sentences they claimed to have heard could have any place and relevance.




Quran 53:19 Have you ever seen Lat and Uzza

20 and another, the last third Manat (names of Arabian idols, claimed by the pagans of Makkah to be the daughters of Allah)?

21 Are you to have sons, and He the daughters?

22 This indeed is an unfair division! These (Lat, Uzza and Manat) are nothing but names which you and your forefathers have invented, for Allah has vested no authority in them. The unbelievers follow nothing but mere conjecture and the whims of their own souls, even though right guidance has already come to them from their Rabb.

24 Or should man have whatever he wishes?

25 Nay! To Allah belongs the hereafter and this present life.

WHY MUST YOU STRUGGLE SO HARD TO DISCREDIT ISLAM???????
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

it is almost alway someone else who comes to your rescue,
wallahi they will not be able to rescue themselves from the punishment of Allah az.


Surah Al-Baqara
2:166. Then would those who are followed clear themselves of those who follow (them) : They would see the penalty, and all relations between them would be cut off.

 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh: Where Is the Truth?
Muhammad Ghoniem & M S M Saifullah
[FONT=HELVETICA, ARIAL, sans-serif]© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.[/FONT]​

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Peace be upon those who follow the guidance:
This article is meant to answer the claims put forward by the Christian missionaries.
The author of that article claims that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh, one of the scribes of the Prophet [FONT=Times New Roman, Book Antiqua]Muhammad[/FONT](P), has contributed to the Qur'ânic text. Let us examine the references used by the author to support his claims and sort out his arguments in the light of famous Islamic resources.......
Excellent response, my brother. I definitely learned something from your post.

It is good to know that some people reference their source of information. It would be good if everyone kept away from plagarism.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Perhaps that is the most telling point of all - that I would be willing to reject that guaranteed "get out of Hell, free" card (which is believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for my sins) and to rather accept the uncertainity of standing before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and striving to follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. Perhaps, I have come to believe to my core that the "card" is merely a piece of paper with a few words written on it and has no more value than Monopoly money. I choose to believe that Allah has no son or partner and have faith that His Mercy is sufficient for me. The doubts come in when I remember how poorly I compare to the model for how to live my life and how to worship Allah.

Wow, that is still soooooo scary. But you apparently are happy with the tremendous risk you are taking that the "card" you now consider of no more value than Monopoly money, is actually the only thing that will keep you out of hell. Reminds me of these verses:

Hebrews 10:
23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25. not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing [having no real value], and insulted the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:
20. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit,'' and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.''
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Phil12123, you don't realize do u? I said before, once someone embraces the concept of Tawheed, that's it, he/she won't give it up, it's the sweetest thing in the world. It's unique. So don't expect someone who has understood the concept of Tawheed, to drop it, cuz he/she wont. Unless Allah swt wants.

you'll just lose time.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You must be reading non-Christian sources, perhaps Jewish sources.

Jewish sources? I think not... In Islam we believe that every single human will sin. The Prophets of course sinned much less than normal humans such as my self (much much less). And they were always quick to repent for their sins. And the sins were never as major as the sins committed by Prophets in the OT (adultery/murder).

Jesus was as human as the rest of us and would have committed very minor sins as well.

That might not be Christian belief but it is Muslim belief.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I believe that you are misled and misinformed. If you are sincere you will you will take the time to read this post and you will see that what you referred to as "Satanic Verses" was actually an slanderous insertion by the early enemies of Islam to discredit Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He did not withdraw this so-called revelation or modify it - these are words of others that they claimed Muhammad (pbuh) said. I could find no reference to your other claims.

Historical background in Alim software for Surah 53.
The details of the period of revelation as given above point to the conditions in which this Surah was revealed. During the first five years of his appointment as a Prophet, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had been extending invitation to Allah's Religion by presenting the Divine Revelations before the people only in private and restricted meetings and assemblies. During this whole period he could never have a chance to recite the Quran before a common gathering openly, mainly because of the strong opposition and resistance from the disbelievers. They were well aware of how magnetic and captivating was the Holy Prophet's personality and his way of preaching and how impressive were the Revelations of the Quran. Therefore, they tried their best to avoid hearing it themselves and to stop others also from hearing it and to suppress his invitation by false propaganda by spreading every kind of suspicion against him. For this object, on the one hand, they were telling the people that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had gone astray and was now bent upon misleading others as well; on the other hand, they would raise an uproar whenever he tried to present the Quran before the people so that no one could know what it was for which he was being branded as a misled and misguided person.

Such were the conditions when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) suddenly stood up one day to make a speech in the sacred precincts of the Ka'bah, where a large number of the Quraish had gathered together. Allah at that time made him deliver this discourse, which we have now in the form of the Surah An-Najm with us. Such was the intensity of the impression that when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) started reciting it the opponents were so completely overwhelmed that they could not think of raising any disorder, and when at the conclusion he fell down in prostration, they too fell down in prostration along with him. Later they felt great remorse at the weakness they had involuntarily shown. The people also started taunting them to the effect that whereas they had been forbidding others to listen to the Quran, that day not only had they themselves listened to it, with complete absorption but had even fallen down in prostration along with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). At last, they had to invent a story in order to get rid of the people's taunt and ridicule. They said, "After he had recited afara'ait-ul Lata wal Uzza wa Manat ath-thalitha-al ukhra, we heard from Muhammad the words: tilk al-gharaniqa- tal-'ula, wa anna shafa'at-u-hunna latarja: 'They are exalted goddesses: indeed, their intercession may be expected.' From this we understood that Muhammad had returned to our faith." As a matter of fact, only a mad person could think that in the context of this Surah the sentences they claimed to have heard could have any place and relevance.




Quran 53:19 Have you ever seen Lat and Uzza

20 and another, the last third Manat (names of Arabian idols, claimed by the pagans of Makkah to be the daughters of Allah)?

21 Are you to have sons, and He the daughters?

22 This indeed is an unfair division! These (Lat, Uzza and Manat) are nothing but names which you and your forefathers have invented, for Allah has vested no authority in them. The unbelievers follow nothing but mere conjecture and the whims of their own souls, even though right guidance has already come to them from their Rabb.

24 Or should man have whatever he wishes?

25 Nay! To Allah belongs the hereafter and this present life.

WHY MUST YOU STRUGGLE SO HARD TO DISCREDIT ISLAM???????
I am not sure i can answer your question in such a way that would satisfy you. I think you have been very polite and sincere on this forum, and it should be a model. The fact is I just got a Qur’an, and I have been reading it. It is very ambiguous to me and full of contradictions as well. I am sincere as well as I believe you are. You shouldn’t have to put the "If you are sincere" clause in here. I love one God just as you do. I seek paradise just as you do. I want you in paradise as I believe you want for me. The Qur’an states that Christians will go to paradise, and in another place says they will go to hell Surah 2:62 and 5:69. Tell me what I should do. If I can go to heaven according to Islam for being a Christian, it behooves me to remain one, because the destiny is not hopeful for the Muslim according to Christianity. So of course, I want you to come out of what is not conducive to your salvation. You cannot accuse me of not being sincere about this as some have done to me on this forum. Some want me off of it in the worse way possible. I pray that God would remove me from this forum if I am not doing His biding, because the last thing I want to do is hurt, unless of course that hurt leads to true healing.
:)
 
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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I am not sure i can answer your question in such a way that would satisfy you. I think you have been very polite and sincere on this forum, and it should be a model. The fact is I just got a Qur’an, and I have been reading it. It is very ambiguous to me and full of contradictions as well. I am sincere as well as I believe you are. You shouldn’t have to put the "If you are sincere" clause in here. I love one God just as you do. I seek paradise just as you do. I want you in paradise as I believe you want for me. The Qur’an states that Christians will go to paradise, and in another place says they will go to hell Surah 2:62 and 5:69. Tell me what I should do. If I can go to heaven according to Islam for being a Christian, it behooves me to remain one, because the destiny is not hopeful for the Muslim according to Christianity. So of course, I want you to come out of what is not conducive to your salvation. You cannot accuse me of not being sincere about this as some have done to me on this forum. Some want me off of it in the worse way possible. I pray that God would remove me from this forum if I am not doing His biding, because the last thing I want to do is hurt, unless of course that hurt leads to true healing.
:)
Perhaps, one more knowledgeable than me can address this issue. A few relevant ayat and a hadith.

Quran 2:62 Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians - whoever believes in Allah and the last day and perform good deeds - will be rewarded by their Rabb; they will have nothing to fear or to regret.

Quran 3:113-115 Yet they are not all alike: there are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite the revelations of Allah all night long and then prostrate before Him; they believe in Allah and the Last Day they enjoin good and forbid evil and rush in emulating each other in good deeds. These are the righteous people. Whatever good they do, its reward will not be denied to them; Allah knows the righteous.

4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you as We laid Our curse on the Sabbath-breakers: and remember that Allah's command is always executed. Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie.

Sahih Muslim hadith 64 Narrated AbuHurayrah The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Wow, that is still soooooo scary. But you apparently are happy with the tremendous risk you are taking that the "card" you now consider of no more value than Monopoly money, is actually the only thing that will keep you out of hell. Reminds me of these verses:
Whether you admit it or not, (if there is a Life After Death with Heaven and Hell as we both believe) then we will both have to "wait and see" where we will go. Your assurances of salvation are based on your BELIEF that the Bible is the inerrant, literal Word of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; whereas, my hope of salvation is based on my BELIEF that the Quran is the inerrant, literal Word of the One God. The differences between us is that you rely upon your belief that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for your sins and and I rely upon my faith in the One God and following the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. Ultimately, Christians rely upon the blood of the Lamb to wash away their sins while Muslims rely upon the Mercy of Allah to directly forgive them without the need for an "atoning sacrifice."

As I have said before, I have made my decision and I can not return to believing that Jesus is the Son of God. Rather.....

I bear witness that there is no god, but One God and Muhammad is His Messenger!
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Perhaps, one more knowledgeable than me can address this issue. A few relevant ayat and a hadith.

Quran 2:62 Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians - whoever believes in Allah and the last day and perform good deeds - will be rewarded by their Rabb; they will have nothing to fear or to regret.

Quran 3:113-115 Yet they are not all alike: there are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite the revelations of Allah all night long and then prostrate before Him; they believe in Allah and the Last Day they enjoin good and forbid evil and rush in emulating each other in good deeds. These are the righteous people. Whatever good they do, its reward will not be denied to them; Allah knows the righteous.

4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you as We laid Our curse on the Sabbath-breakers: and remember that Allah's command is always executed. Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie.

Sahih Muslim hadith 64 Narrated AbuHurayrah The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) observed: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.
I understand. That is fine. Please keep in mind; however, it is not my heart to associate anyone with with God. I believe in my heart of hearts that God is one and has NO partners. No one has the right to judge me without this judgment falling on them 100 fold. I promise that is truth. I Love God, and I have something that Muslims don't. That is a relationship with Him. I can talk to him and he responds and shows me things, and He even spanks me on ocassion, because He loves me. I enjoy my relationship with the Lord, and I can tell you that His Spirit bears witness witn mine that I am His. I want you to have what I do. I believe that God LOVES YOU MORE THAN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND AND LOVES YOU PERSONALLY AS IF YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD. YOU ARE THAT SPECIAL TO HIM. I WOULD DO ANYTHING TO HELP YOU SEE IT. SINCERELY:-[
 
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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Jewish sources? I think not... In Islam we believe that every single human will sin. The Prophets of course sinned much less than normal humans such as my self (much much less). And they were always quick to repent for their sins. And the sins were never as major as the sins committed by Prophets in the OT (adultery/murder).

Jesus was as human as the rest of us and would have committed very minor sins as well.

That might not be Christian belief but it is Muslim belief.

Do you have any specifics, according to Muslim belief, other than "very minor sins"? Anything in the Quran or elsewhere accusing Him of anything?
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Do you have any specifics, according to Muslim belief, other than "very minor sins"? Anything in the Quran or elsewhere accusing Him of anything?

Not of Him nor of any Prophets. We do not believe in the pointing out of even minor sins of any Believer.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures
The Mormons (specifically Joseph Smith), the Jehovah's Witnesses, Reverend Moon and Lord knows how many others have brought out the same argument. People have changed scripture and they have been personally chosen by God to set the record straight, blah, blah, blah... It is a tired argument and holds no water. Christianity didn't rewrite scripture, it reveals the new covenant God made with us because we finally realized what He knew from the start; we could not restore our relationship with Him, He had to restore it with us.

before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward
The biggest difference between Islam and the rest is that Mohammed has more followers and they're meaner.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The Mormons (specifically Joseph Smith), the Jehovah's Witnesses, Reverend Moon and Lord knows how many others have brought out the same argument. People have changed scripture and they have been personally chosen by God to set the record straight, blah, blah, blah... It is a tired argument and holds no water. Christianity didn't rewrite scripture, it reveals the new covenant God made with us because we finally realized what He knew from the start; we could not restore our relationship with Him, He had to restore it with us.
Quran 4:47-48 O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you as We laid Our curse on the Sabbath-breakers: and remember that Allah's command is always executed. Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie.

The biggest difference between Islam and the rest is that Mohammed has more followers and they're meaner.
The punishement that you picked out from the ayat I quoted is from Allah, not from the Muslims. And, yes, Christians claiming that Jesus is the Son of God is indeed a "great sinful lie".
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Jesus a.s will not be able to help himself, let alone MustafaMC or me, or u.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This so illustrates how irreconcilably different our respective faiths are. Jesus is God, so He doesn't need "to help himself"; He is in fact the One on the throne judging all of mankind:

John 5:
21. "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23. "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.


And He has already helped you, and MustafaMc, and me, by dying for our sins. It will be too late, though, for any help when the Judgment occurs. By then, all of us will have died and any opportunity to receive Him as Savior and Lord will have been cut off. If that did not occur before death, it will never occur, although you will bow your knee and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of the Father (Phil. 2:9-11). But that will not make Him your Savior, so you will be without salvation and the only issue then will be the punishment of your sins.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This so illustrates how irreconcilably different our respective faiths are. Jesus is God, so He doesn't need "to help himself"; He is in fact the One on the throne judging all of mankind:

John 5:
21. "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23. "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

I know that in your beliefs Jesus a.s is God, but I was making a general statement, that Jesus is not God, so he can't even help himself.

And He has already helped you, and MustafaMc, and me, by dying for our sins. It will be too late, though, for any help when the Judgment occurs. By then, all of us will have died and any opportunity to receive Him as Savior and Lord will have been cut off. If that did not occur before death, it will never occur, although you will bow your knee and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of the Father (Phil. 2:9-11). But that will not make Him your Savior, so you will be without salvation and the only issue then will be the punishment of your sins.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :p
Jesus did not die, he was raised up in the heaven :)
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I know that in your beliefs Jesus a.s is God, but I was making a general statement, that Jesus is not God, so he can't even help himself.

Yes, a general statement, according to your beliefs. And I would agree that if He weren't God He couldn't help me or you. We would be on our own, having to pay for all our sins ourselves. A very depressing thought, indeed, because we are both sinners and if HE didn't pay for our sins, we are both in BIG trouble.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :p
Jesus did not die, he was raised up in the heaven :)

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! If He didn't die, WHO did? And where is his dead body? How did it disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was huge rock in front of it, sealed closed? Your story, which you believe and stake your eternal destiny on, doesn't even make sense. Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

Jesus told his disciples in advance that He would be crucified and rise from the dead:


Matthew 16:
21. From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!''
23. But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.''


Notice v. 21, how He told them what would happen to Him, but notice also vv.22-23 and what appears to be a harsh rebuke of Peter by Jesus. The spirit that moved Peter to say, No, this will never happen to you, is exactly the same spirit that told Muhammad that No, it never happened to Jesus. Notice the identity of the spirit in v. 23.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You know, I don't mean any offence towards any Christians, but I'm still trying to understand the concept of "killing god."

I understand that most(probably all) Christians believe that Jesus (a.s) died on the cross for the sins of Mankind. So what exactly is the purpose of "God" letting his creation kill Him?
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Phil,

One big problem is we do not have any mutual grounds of acceptable proof.

You believe the Bible is true and that all is as it is written and that The words about Isa(as) are the true words. The teachings of the Qur'an you view as being full of errors and not to be trusted,

I believe that the Qur'an is the truth and the words in it about Isa(as) are the truth. I view the teachings of the Bible to be full of errors and are not to be trusted.


Both of us have what we each do believe are valid reasons to believe as we do.

Until we can come to an agreement as to which is truly the word of God(swt) we will have no mutual source to base our debates upon.

all we can do is stand here telling each other of the errors we believe we see.

as long as we can do this without malice, it can be constructive, at least in terms of learning that somewhere within each of us, we are all Human and share the same feelings if not the same beliefs.
 

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