"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Redeemed]

Well, how would you feel if I lumped you in with atheists? At least I concede that you have some sense of faith in Allah - you just out right ascribe partners to Him with your worship of the human, Jesus (pbuh). Every Muslim on this forum will witness that what you preach is FAR from the Truth. I believe that you are sincere in what you say and that you really and truly believe what you write, but you are getting no where with your incessant preaching.

Mustafac, my brother of humanity. It does seem you are right about me not getting anywhere, but I’ll let God be the judge of that. It is written in the word of God that I am to share it, and that it will not return void. It will accomplish God's purpose. So I share by faith what I believe. And please don't be offended, because it is not an attack on your character. I am doing and saying these things actually to cover myself before God. He tells me to warn you that you are headed for an eternity in judgment for your sins. If I don’t warn you, God told me he will require your blood at my hand, so I am doing all I can to shout and get your attention, but if I warn you and you don’t heed, your blood will be on your own head and I will not be responsible. By the way, I wouldn't be offended if you told that I am spiritually ignorant and blind or if you cut down my beliefs just for the sage of doing it, but I don’t think it is in you to do such things you are a very respectful person, and I respect that about you. What I do, again, is try to hear from God for myself and act on it. If I am wrong, at least I am making my own mistake and not another's. Bro, hear from God for yourself. Let him confirm to your soul. He will speak to you. That is what you lack; that is what you lack!!! Sincerely

 

[vpb]

Mustafac, my brother of humanity. It does seem you are right about me not getting anywhere, but I’ll let God be the judge of that. It is written in the word of God that I am to share it, and that it will not return void. It will accomplish God's purpose. So I share by faith what I believe. And please don't be offended, because it is not an attack on your character. I am doing and saying these things actually to cover myself before God. He tells me to warn you that you are headed for an eternity in judgment for your sins. If I don’t warn you, God told me he will require your blood at my hand, so I am doing all I can to shout and get your attention, but if I warn you and you don’t heed your blood will be on your own head and I will not be responsible. By the way, I wouldn't be offended if you told that I am spiritually ignorant and blind or if you cut down my beliefs just for the sage of doing it, but I don’t think it is in you to do such things you are a very respectful person, and I respect that about you. What I do, again, is try to hear from God for myself and act on it.

for you it doesn't matter wether u spread the message or not, you will not be punished for it , the only thing u get punished for is not beliving "in Jesus's blood". so no worries about u.

If I am wrong, at least I am making my own mistake and not another's.

No, it's not about saying "if i'm wrong at least that is my mistake". No. Cuz this statement is paid by hellfire. You should strive to find the truth and be on the right.

Bro, hear from God for yourself. Let him confirm to your soul. He will speak to you. That is what you lack; that is what you lack!!! Sincerely

We read Allah's book, which is the Qur'an, that's how we talk to Allah, and He talks to us. We do this everyday. At least 5 times a day.

The Prophet (SAW) said: “If you want to talk to Allah, open the Quran and read it.”

 

[ranma1/2]

...
How does it make you feel when people believe in God?
...
Peace

Me personally i have no problem with someone believing in a personal god. Its when that god starts telling others what to do is what i have the problem with.

Without religion there will still be evil in the world.
Evil men will still do wicked deeds and good men will still good deeds.
But it takes religion for a good man to do evil deeds.

 

[glo]

But it takes religion for a good man to do evil deeds.

Thank you for your reply, ranma.

That's an incredibly strong statement ...
Can you give me an example for what you mean by that?

Also, do you think the reverse could ever be true?
'It takes religion for a bad man to do good deeds'?

Thanks

 

[NoName55]

Originally Posted by Phil12123
Hmmmm....sounds like this verse, right back at ya. "Never will the Muslims be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: 'The Guidance of God, -that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God." (The New Revised King Phil Version).

The difference is that Br. vpb quoted an actual verse of the Quran; whereas, yours was made up to suit your purposes. Perhaps, you were trying to make a joke, but I see it as a metaphorical example of what we claim the Biblical authors and scribes have done.

Quran 3:78 There are some among them who twist their tongues pretending a quote from their Holy Book; so that you may think that what they read is a part of the Book, whereas, in fact it is not a part of the Book. They also assert, "It is from Allah" whereas, in fact it is not from Allah. Thus they deliberately ascribe a lie to Allah.

pehaps distortion is the name of the game!

Just look at a Bible from a S[SIZE=-1]ynagogue and compare it to the travesty that passes for old testament


[/SIZE]

 

[Keltoi]

Is it really necessary to evangelize back and forth?

 

[Woodrow]

Is it really necessary to evangelize back and forth?

Thanks for the reminder Keltoi. You just gave very good advice. I deleted my post.

 

[Keltoi]

Thanks for the reminder Keltoi. You just gave very good advice. I deleted my post.

Well, you didn't start it, you responded to it...but I'm not going to throw out names. It just doesn't seem like a constructive way to spend our time.

 

[glo]

Is it really necessary to evangelize back and forth?

I agree, Keltoi.
Perhaps it's time to call a ceasefire?

There should be no proselytising going on here anyway!
Explaining one's faith to others, fine.
Correcting misinformation about one's faith, fine.

But badgering others into one's own beliefs in not fine.

I am getting quite disheartened and upset by the attitudes of some posters at the moment ...

 

[vpb]

But badgering others into one's own beliefs in not fine.

depends how u do it. if I do it with Qur'anic verses, then no one can tell me not to, cuz if Allah said those words, I can transmit those wherever I want. but as for doing it with my own words, that's a different thing.

 

[Woodrow]

Well, you didn't start it, you responded to it...but I'm not going to throw out names. It just doesn't seem like a constructive way to spend our time.

An attempt to Evangelize on a debate thread is tantamount to self destruction and the best that one can achieve is to misrepresent what he believes. Far more constructive to stick to just answering specific questions and spend the time sharing facts.

 

[glo]

depends how u do it. if I do it with Qur'anic verses, then no one can tell me not to, cuz if Allah said those words, I can transmit those wherever I want. but as for doing it with my own words, that's a different thing.

No one can tell you not to, because this is an Islamic forum, vpb.

 

[vpb]

No one can tell you not to, because this is an Islamic forum, vpb.

it's not about if it is an islamic forum or not, but the thing is that if Bible says "muslims are crazy", paste it, I don't mind, bc that's the book that you believe in, but if you say from your own word "muslims are crazy", then I would have to ........hmmm.. slap you ;D

so it doesn't matter how harsh it is, if it is from books, doesn't matter.

that's what I think.

 

[vpb]

btw, glo, why did u copy my nickname style? why did u make it 3-letter-nickname? instead of 4+ or 3-???

 

[Woodrow]

Mustafac, my brother of humanity. It does seem you are right about me not getting anywhere, but I’ll let God be the judge of that. It is written in the word of God that I am to share it, and that it will not return void. It will accomplish God's purpose. So I share by faith what I believe. And please don't be offended, because it is not an attack on your character. I am doing and saying these things actually to cover myself before God. He tells me to warn you that you are headed for an eternity in judgment for your sins. If I don’t warn you, God told me he will require your blood at my hand, so I am doing all I can to shout and get your attention, but if I warn you and you don’t heed, your blood will be on your own head and I will not be responsible. By the way, I wouldn't be offended if you told that I am spiritually ignorant and blind or if you cut down my beliefs just for the sage of doing it, but I don’t think it is in you to do such things you are a very respectful person, and I respect that about you. What I do, again, is try to hear from God for myself and act on it. If I am wrong, at least I am making my own mistake and not another's. Bro, hear from God for yourself. Let him confirm to your soul. He will speak to you. That is what you lack; that is what you lack!!! Sincerely

Now to try to reply to this in a manner that is in agreement with the nature of this thread. "Views on atonement for Sin."

My views on atonement and how I understand it from Islam are:

Sins can only be atoned for by God(swt) no man, angel, jinn, or other creation of Allah(swt) has the ability to forgive sins. We can not earn it and we are not worthy of it. It is only through the Mercy and forgiveness of Allah(swt) that our sins can be forgiven. No sacrifice is sufficient for atonement. Our sins can not be atoned for. but, Allah(swt) can remove them and forgive them.

We have been given the instructions as to who to ask for guidance and what we need to ask for.

1: 1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. S P
1: 2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; S P C
1: 3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful; S P
1: 4. Master of the Day of Judgment. S P
1: 5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. S P C

1: 6. Show us the straight way, S P C
1: 7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

The choice of which we follow is our own choice and we alone are responsible for what path we follow.

 

[Keltoi]

So I take it that Muslims would not agree with the Jewish practice in the Old Testament of sacrificing animals, in most cases, as atonement for sin?

"And he shall take of the congregation of the children of
Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram
for a burnt offering. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of
the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an
atonement for himself, and for his house. And he shall take
the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast
lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other
lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon
which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering
...Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is
for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do
with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and
sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:"
(Leviticus 16:5-9, 15)

I posted that verse just as a source for atonement in the Old Testament. I gather that Muslims would say a sacrifice isn't necessary or warranted for the atonement of sin?

 

[Woodrow]

I am still to much of a newbie in Islam to attempt to explain the Islamic view of sacrifice. to be honest I do not yet understand the celebration of Ad'ha.

From the little I do understand that while Allah(swt) has provided for us to offer sacrifices, the sacrifices are not for the atonement of our sins.

all I can do here is quote from the Qur'an.

22:34. To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your god is One God: submit then your wills to Him (in Islam): and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,- S P C

22:35. To those whose hearts when Allah is mentioned, are filled with fear, who show patient perseverance over their afflictions, keep up regular prayer, and spend (in charity) out of what We have bestowed upon them. S P C
22:36. The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah: in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful. S P
C

22:37. It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

So far I have found no indication that Muslims have ever or do offer sacrifices as atonement for sins. (But, I am still a newborn in Islam)

 

[Muslim Knight]

So far I have found no indication that Muslims have ever or do offer sacrifices as atonement for sins. (But, I am still a newborn in Islam)

We are told that good deeds (charity, helping the old, taking care of orphans) done with the intention to please Allah, will be rewarded accordingly. Some deeds could also be the expiation of sins. But tawbah nasuha i.e. repentance in the earnest can clean away the sins of a person, making him as if he never committed the sins in the first place.

 

[Redeemed]

for you it doesn't matter wether u spread the message or not, you will not be punished for it , the only thing u get punished for is not beliving "in Jesus's blood". so no worries about u.



No, it's not about saying "if i'm wrong at least that is my mistake". No. Cuz this statement is paid by hellfire. You should strive to find the truth and be on the right.


We read Allah's book, which is the Qur'an, that's how we talk to Allah, and He talks to us. We do this everyday. At least 5 times a day.

The Prophet (SAW) said: “If you want to talk to Allah, open the Quran and read it.”

That is true about the mistake thing, but I find truth in Jesus. I believe that I AM HONORING GOD WHEN I HONOR CHRIST. Islam SAYS THERE IS Salvation FOR THE CHRISTIANS, BUT THE BIBLE SAYS THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF CHRIST. GO FIRGUE. I FEEL IT IS IN (our) MY BEST INTEREST TO STAY A CHRISTIAN, because it is not us that ascribe a partner unto God. We believe in only one God, and we don’t have to confess any prophet with him for our hope, and we certainly do not see Jesus as only a prophet. We see him for who he really is the Son of the living God. We Christians are going to see Jesus receive the rewards of his suffering, and we will have great satisfaction to see every knee bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God in the highest (even those hell bound will confess this).

 

[vpb]

That is true about the mistake thing, but I find truth in Jesus. I believe that I AM HONORING GOD WHEN I HONOR CHRIST. Islam SAYS THERE IS Salvation FOR THE CHRISTIANS, BUT THE BIBLE SAYS THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF CHRIST. GO FIRGUE. I FEEL IT IS IN (our) MY BEST INTEREST TO STAY A CHRISTIAN, because it is not us that ascribe a partner unto God. We believe in only one God, and we don’t have to confess any prophet with him for our hope, and we certainly do not see Jesus as only a prophet.

I understand what you believe, bc it's better to think that there is a jackpot for the forgiving of the sins, but in reality this is like the real bingo jackpots, where nobody wins them, it always just goes up and up and people just buy tickets, spend money, and at the end they end up with a 5 pounds of winning. I have said before , bc you have been adapted to the concept of Jesus being God, or the son of God, doesn't let you precieve saying "jesus is god or son of God" as joining partnership. do u see what i'm saying?. so that's why Islam is trying to tell people, that it is a joining of partnership, to clarify things to people.

We see him for who he really is the Son of the living God. We Christians are going to see Jesus receive the rewards of his suffering, and we will have great satisfaction to see every knee bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God in the highest (even those hell bound will confess this).

again, I don't mind if you believe this, it's up to you.