Virginity is virtue not a vice

~Zaria~ said:
Ermm, all these quotes were replies that were made during the course of the day, and are not from the OP.
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Zaria I dont want to be rude but you clearly can't read very well either that or you're a professional emotional manipulator.
Good luck with your life.
 
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^ Lol!

Seriously, all of your quotes that I have referred to, are from post 6 onwards.

And finally, you ask: "Just for the sake of it give me one sentence where I have implied that virgins should not marry non virgins."

Please refer to post 6:


~Zaria~ said:
There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (non-virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.
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Berries'forest said:
Too bad that just goes to prove my case.
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I honestly cant understand the hostility in your tone.
But thats ok.

All the best to you too sister.

:wasalam:
 
No I am perfectly calm. I was just giving you an assessment of what I gather from reading some of your posts. Don't accuse people of things you don't know of and sometimes life is much better when we toss our worries aside and not consider every disagreeing view as threat or a personal attack. If you want to qoute something qoute the whole thing and not misdingvparts of jigsaw.

I actually don't know or believe that you want all the best for me but I can't deceive myself and others because you're only an online acquintace and I don't mean to be blunt but I'm indifferent.
 
Final thing since you mentioned a qoute.

Me: "Too bad that goes to prove my point".
It was you and not me who's implied that families of non virgins seek the mating of no virgins similar to themselves, expressing a disfavor in the option of marrying a virgin ofcourse. Zaria either you were caught up with finding the right words of expressing your view or your words have betrayed you. Reading twice never hurts does it.
 
I actually don't know or believe that you want all the best for me but I can't deceive myself and others because you're only an online acquintace and I don't mean to be blunt but I'm indifferent.
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Why wouldnt I want the best for you?

I have merely expressed my thoughts on a topic and shared the views of other scholars and authors as well.
I honestly dont take anything that has been discussed personally, and I hope that you do not either.



EDIT:

It was you and not me who's implied that families of non virgins seek the mating of no virgins similar to themselves, expressing a disfavor in the option of marrying a virgin ofcourse. Zaria either you were caught up with finding the right words of expressing your view or your words have betrayed you. Reading twice never hurts does it.
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Im not sure how you can twist anothers words to your interpretations - but here you do it again.
You are well aware that this was not my meaning, and hence your initial reply to it was as quoted.

In any case, I think I have said all that I can in posts 14/15.

Thats all for me.


BarakAllahu feekum,

Was salaam
 
Berries'forest said:
I haven't been living. The fact is there is no difference between virginity and chastity, perhaps you guys mean modesty?. I'm not sure but even that is up to dispute. I think you guys are way too sensitive. I am well aware of the punishment Allah swt has subscribed to those whom making people despair of His mercy. I never raised that point no where have I even slightly insinuated anything on that matter. I was refuting or maybe answering; the notion of claiming that virginity is over rated . I'm sorry but is this just not another way of apologetic and trying to just eradicate the complete doctrine, to me that's how it is and I felt I should voice my opinion.
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The fact is, there is a difference between chastity and virginity. Someone who has oral sex, masturbates, and does everything under the sun except intercourse, is still considered a virgin but is not chaste. That's what you're not understanding. Modesty is irrelevant to any of this.

and no one is being sensitive about this, if at all you are the sensitive one lol, no one is taking offense to anything you're saying nor getting agitated as much as you are.

Your post is speaking about virginity and that's what everyone else is speaking about as far as I can see. No one was speaking against you but rather elaborating on some things to make it clearer for those who do come and view this thread. If you were here just to rant, then feel free to start a blog, otherwise nothing you said is anything new. You're not expressing any points in your replies.

Yes Allah said we have to be chaste, yes we have to remain virgins. Yes the majority of muslims know this. Why they don't act upon it is of question as that's their own choice. No one is taking the subject of virginity lightly, and no one is saying it's ok not to be a virgin or not to be chaste. However, we are making cases so that everyone knows what they are, so they don't become so judgmental like you. So now what is your point?? Stop whining about how "aggressive" the posts or posters are. They're written words, they don't need a little smiley face after each sentence. It's called being formal.


fi aman allah
w'salaam
 
Zaria my warrant was clear reread your posts modify and edit them so that you're not misunderstood also don't blame the downfall of your mistakes on others and then accuse them of twisting things. You qouted your self and I replied to you where's the so called twisting in that you don't like to admit your mistakes it's really your choice just spare me your snarks and do your self a favor by reading things thoroughly before jumping to false and hasty conclusions.
 
Charisma I really like your post. Goodthing this thread turn out to be a punch bag for those you who wanted it to. Good day.
 
Berries'forest said:
Zaria my warrant was clear reread your posts modify and edit them so that you're not misunderstood also don't blame the downfall of your mistakes on others and then accuse them of twisting things. You qouted your self and I replied to you where's the so called twisting in that you don't like to admit your mistakes it's really your choice just spare me your snarks and do your self a favor by reading things thoroughly before jumping to false and hasty conclusions.
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???

There's absolutely no error in the above stated quote.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (non-virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.


It's clear that you are looking for faults where there are none, and seeking some sort of argumentation for no real reason.
As you please.
 
~Zaria~ said:
???

There's absolutely no error in the above stated quote.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (non-virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.


It's clear that you are looking for faults where there are none, and seeking some sort of argumentation for no real reason.
As you please.
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I thought you were done?. Why'd you come back?. Anyway didn't you just tell me a few minutes ago that I twsited your statements. Why the sudden change of heart?. Some families, according to you, discourage their sons from marrying widows and divorcees because the same family wants them to marry someone of same status non virgin which implies the granted son is not a virgin himself. Perhaps they want him to marry someone who's really experienced,no?.

Correction: You still insist on not correcting your statment. If you had only been careful enough to erase the non from virgin. I wouldn't have said anything against it at all.
 
I thought you were done?. Why'd you come back?. Anyway didn't you just tell me a few minutes ago that I twsited your statements. Why the sudden change of heart?. Some families, according to you, discourage their sons from marrying widows and divorcees because the same family wants them to marry someone of same status non virgin which implies the granted son is not a virgin himself. Perhaps they want him to marry someone who's really experienced,no?.

Correction: You still insist on not correcting your statment. If you had only been careful enough to erase the non from virgin. I wouldn't have said anything against it at all.
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The 'non' has been removed.
Would it not have been easier to just mention the obvious typo in the statement directly, rather than engage in a rant?

Its obvious from the length of my entire post that I am not against someone who marries a divorced/ widowed person.

Why is your speech filled with such bitterness?

If you do not have any meaningful response to posts 14/15, then please - just relax.


Wa-alaikumsalam
 
I am sorry they seem so bitter to you. I just don't like it when people try to portray someone as the bad guy while they are on mistake. I didn't engage in any rant with you, you brought up the qoute and I gave you a response twice. How was I supposed to know you weren't serious?. Especially when you kept laughing out loud and insisting it was me who has a fault.
 
~Zaria~ said:
Sister, there are members here who are simply airing their points of view.
Theres absolutely no need to be aggressive or sarcastic in your manner of speech to others, esp since everyone is entitled to how they may feel.
Nobody here has tried to re-define the principles laid out in Islam, so please calm down a little.
I could be wrong but it seems likely from your posts that you are unmarried/ have never been married before, and perhaps this could be influencing your personal stance on this issue.
As I had mentioned on the previous thread, as one gets older and Allah tests a person by means of divorce, death of a spouse and other forms of trials - we start to see the world through different, and more mature eyes.
I should first clarify that I, and it appears others on this thread do NOT view 'virginity' and 'chastity' as one and the same.
Virginity is a state of not ever having initimate relations.
Chastity is the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse (Oxford Dictionary).
In other words, a non-virgin may be able to remain 'chaste' in the sense that they do not engage in any extra-marital relations.
I would hate to think that you are referring to all the brothers and sisters on the forum who may be divorced/ widowed as being 'unchaste'.
The second point is, that you seem to have taken a few statements made on this thread and the previous one, and have completely blown our intentions out the water.
Please refrain from this.
The following comments (as well as many others) were not implied or intended in my posts, and are simply untrue: Originally Posted by Berries'forest But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart. Originally Posted by Berries'forest Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah. It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise.
What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin". Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't. Originally Posted by Berries'forest The disfavor and despising attitude towards virgins should stop. Originally Posted by Berries'forest The notion of making unlawful things slightly lawful or overlooked under certain conditions was being held there. Originally Posted by Berries'forest I think from the first reply it does seem to me that virginity seems no more a requiremnt for marriage conditions. Originally Posted by Berries'forest Too bad that just goes to prove my case. ^ Unfortunately, the only one who is displaying a 'self-righteous' attitude at the moment is yourself, by implying that there is nothing wrong in turning down a potential suitor, because by your notion they are 'unchaste', even if they had lost their virginity in a previous marriage and are now divorced or widowed.
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Post number 14, you demand a meaningful response.

You start out by saying that I use sarcasm and aggressiveness through out my posts.

My answer: I did use sarcasm on purpose. If you actually follow the posts you can detect that Icee here was simply trying to make me look stupid by all means. As he previously did in some other threads. There's nothing agressive in telling someone things without sugar coating them. I might use sarcasm but if it bothers you so much you were never compelled to reply.

Your 2nd point: No body has tried to re define the concepts in Islam.

My answer: You guys have your own way with semantic that you really don't need to directly attempt to redefine anything at all. Distiniguishing between vriginity and chastity then attributing eternal span to virginity then turning into being virgin without having direct contact. Firstly It has absolutely nothing to do with the OP and secondly it makes no sense.

The 3rd point:
"Chastity is the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse (Oxford Dictionary).
In other words, a non-virgin may be able to remain 'chaste' in the sense that they do not engage in any extra-marital relations.
I would hate to think that you are referring to all the brothers and sisters on the forum who may be divorced/ widowed as being 'unchaste'."


I can't help but wonder what your intentions were when you wrote the bolded sentence. My post just above explicitly cited that the theme of the thread is about out of wedlock encounters. I've already said it's not relevant. There is a seperate word for married people who've comsumamted their marraige the ones that refrain from engaging in extra-marital relationships. Fidel.

The 4rth point:
The following comments (as well as many others) were not implied or intended in my posts, and are simply untrue: Originally Posted by Berries'forest But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart. Originally Posted by Berries'forest Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah. It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise.
What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin". Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't.

1/ You did say that virginity is over rated did you not?. Why then when I point out that it's not true you accuse me of implying falshood. Wasn't the first reply No virginity is not a virtue chastity is. There is nothing wrong with what I said.
2/ Keeping your self chaste is a commandment from Allah. There notion of virginity being overrated opposes to that.
3/Charisma has provided us with a good parable in her first post.

Then you post alengthy article abour divorce, it seemed to me like you were trying too hard because divorce has nothing to do with this topic.

The rest of you personality report I'm not gonna answer to it. And for your second post it has nothing to do with my thread so I have no reply to that either.
 
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Berries'forest said:
Unfortunately, the only one who is displaying a 'self-righteous' attitude at the moment is yourself, by implying that there is nothing wrong in turning down a potential suitor, because by your notion they are 'unchaste', even if they had lost their virginity in a previous marriage and are now divorced or widowed.
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I don't know how I missed this. Know one thing God knows of me more than you do. He knows what is inside of my heart and the core of my intentions. Where may I ask have I ever said the by even the slightest hint of implication that it's okay to turn down a non virgin suitor?. I never said they were un chaste where did I say that?. Especially when I kept reiterating that *exceptional* cases are not the target nor are specific people or collective groups choosing to do whatever they want. The target was the notion. If anything I only pointed out that it's not only the non virgins who might feel a littel anxious or worried about marrying a virgin virgins too go through a cycle of their own discomfort. I can declare to you and reckon that that word precisley was never printed on any of my posts. *unchaste*. Except for this one.
 
You should realise that the only reason I had responded to this thread in the first place, was because you had directly referred to the statements made by sister charisma and myself from the previous thread - and in doing so, produced an explanation for our words, which we did not endorse/ identify with.

If it appears that my response was not in the direction of the OP, this was because it was an attempt to clarify our postion - from the previous thread.

I think it is easy to misinterpret ones words over an on-line medium such as this, but sometimes it is important to consider what is said in context of the entire discussion.
When saying that 'virginity is over-rated' - it was in no way an endorsement for promiscuity. We are all aware of the serious nature of adultery and fornication.
So, you are in effect preaching to the converted with regards to this.

It seems you extrapolated alot from this one phrase (as bolded) - which is simply not true of how we feel about this issue:

The 4rth point:
The following comments (as well as many others) were not implied or intended in my posts, and are simply untrue: Originally Posted by Berries'forest But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart.

Originally Posted by Berries'forest Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah.

It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise.

What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin".

Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't.

1/ You did say that virginity is over rated did you not?. Why then when I point out that it's not true you accuse me of implying falshood. Wasn't the first reply No virginity is not a virtue chastity is. There is nothing wrong with what I said.
2/ Keeping your self chaste is a commandment from Allah. There notion of virginity being overrated opposes to that.
3/Charisma has provided us with a good parable in her first post.
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^ When mentioning that 'virginity is over-rated', it is in the context of how certain cultures have placed undue pressure on muslims when seeking marriage in this regard.
Divorced and widowed men/ women often find it more difficult to find partners as a result.
So, this is what is meant by: 'Chastity is a virtue, not virginity (per say)'.

You further tried to describe that virginity and chastity is one and the same - to which we tried to show otherwise.

The two articles that were posted was in response to your sentiments that its 'too bad' if divorced/ widowed people do not get accepted for marriage as a result of their non-virgin status - which i think is now cleared up.


With regards to your manner in responding to others, i think a healthier discussion can ensue without the aggressiveness/ sarcasm.
I dont think anyone is trying to make others 'look stupid', but instead, they may challenge our thought processes by means of questioning.

A lot of confusion can be avoided if we just address questions and statements directly.

Also, to try and not extrapolate someone elses sentiments, based on a few phrases - as in reality, they could be meaning something completely differently.
Rather ask them directly, and in shaa Allah, this can clear up a lot of doubts and save alot of time.


Was salaam
 
I dont think I have been part of a thread with as much misunderstandings as this one....




Where may I ask have I ever said the by even the slightest hint of implication that it's okay to turn down a non virgin suitor?. I never said they were un chaste where did I say that?. Especially when I kept reiterating that *exceptional* cases are not the target nor are specific people or collective groups choosing to do whatever they want. The target was the notion. If anything I only pointed out that it's not only the non virgins who might feel a littel anxious or worried about marrying a virgin virgins too go through a cycle of their own discomfort. I can declare to you and reckon that that word precisley was never printed on any of my posts. *unchaste*. Except for this one.
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As mentioned above, it appears missing the word 'non' has made a huge difference in understanding each others views.....

However you have said:

You *can't* literally become chaste again after intentionally losing your virginity maybe this is possible metaphorically yes or even through modern medical operations but onces that state is gone it's gone forever and that is why it's precious.
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^which was understood as: even those who were previously married or those who may have erred in the distant past - can never practise a state of chastity again. Which is not the case.
 

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