Wali

[Zafran]

Not correct.

Its correct and its well known, It funny how so many cant believe that madhabs actually have real difference of opinion, which I'm sorry to tell you they do and most of the scholars in the respective schools defend the view through Quran and sunnah.

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Those imams gave the same advice to follow what is in accordance with the Holy Quraan and the Sunnah. But the exaggerations came from the people of the
later
times.

That is not true at all - plenty of scholars early or late have had differences of opinion and justified there views through Quran/sunnah based on axiomatic principles. They differed on many fiqh Issues.

 

[OmAbdullah]

Indeed, they were their students who themselves were mujtahid like imam abu yusuf, imam Muhammad, imam yahya, imam ibnul qasim, imam abdullah b ahmad etc, us, the random people, were not advised.


Commenting on these statements, Imam an-Nawawi (rahmatullah alayh) says:

"This which Imam ash-Shaafi has said does not mean that everyone who sees a sahih Hadith should say "This is the mathhab of ash-Shaafi," thus practicing on the zaahir (text/external or apparent meaning) of the Haditli.

This most certainly applies to only such a person who has the rank of ijtihad in the mathhab. It is a condition that he overwhelmingly believes that Imam ash-Shaafi was unaware of this Hadith or he was unaware of its authenticity. And this is possible only after having made a research of all the books of ash-Shaafi and similar other books of the Ashaab of ash-Shaafi, those who take (knowledge) from him and others similar to these (books). This is indeed a difficult condition (to fulfill). Few are there who measure up to this (standard).
What we have explained has been made conditional because Imam ash-Shaafi had abandoned acting on the zaahir (text) of many Ahadith, which he say and knew. However, by him was established proof for criticism in the Hadith or its abrogation or it's specific circumstance or its interpretation, etc. Hence, he was constrained to leave aside the hadith." (Ilaaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

Shaykh Abu Amr (rahmatullah alayh) said:

"It is not easy to act according to the aparrent (zahir) text of what Imam ash-Shaafi said. It is not lawful for (even) every Faqeeh (qualified Aalim who has deep insight) to act indepently with that which opines to be proof from the Hadith." (Ilaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

It also appears in Ilaaus Sunan of Muhaddith Zafar Ahmad Uthmani (rahmatullah alayh):

"Imam Sha'raani has also narrated it (i.e. the statement "When the authenticity of a Hadith is established, it is my mathhab."), attributing it to the four Imams. It is not hidden (from understanding) that this is for the one who has the ability (insight and qualifications) in the Nusoos and the knowledge of its clear laws and abrogations." Volume 2, page 226.

Discussing this statement in his treatise, Shaykh Yusuf bin Ismaail Nibhaani says

"Verily, the statement: "When the Hadith has been authenticated, then it is my mathhab" has been narrated from each of these four Imams who were free from personal opinion. The audience to whom this statement ("When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab.") was directed, is on his (the imam's) Ashaab (the Fuqaha of his Mathhab) who were the great and illustrious Aimmah among the great 'Ulama of his mathhab, those who where the Ahl at-Tarjeeh (a high category of 'Ulama). All of them who were the haafizeen of the Hadith of Rasulullah (s.a.s.) were fully aware of the daleels (proofs) of all the mathhabs These are the ones whom the Imam (of the mathhab) had directed his statement: "When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab" Verily, they (these great Fuqaha) are able to reconcile between the Hadith from which the Imam had derived proof, and the latest Hadith which was established as authentic after the Imam. They (these illustrious Fuqaha) can see which of the two Hadiths is more authentic, stronger and which of the two Hadiths is the later one so that the later one can be the Naasikh (abrogator) for the earlier one." (Hujjatullah alal Aalameen)

In fact to be very sincere and straight forward, all such statements increase confusion and complications so much so that many people may run away from the understanding of the Deen. When I tried to understand the Holy Quraan through the tafaseer of great scholars, it became very easy to understand ahaadeeth and Islam as whole. Then we must also consider the basic principles. The basic principles are that in the grave everyone of this Ummah will be asked about Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam only. Moreover, according to a Hadeeth Shareef, everyone will be forgiven by the shafaa'a (intercession) of Muhammad

salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam​

except those who will be failed by the Holy Quraan. This clearly means that we must try to get the shafaa'a of the TWO i.e.

shafaa'a (intercession) of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam​

and Shafaa'a of the Holy Quraan. So if we fear punishment in grave and in Hell then we must become close friends with these TWO sources of Islam.


Remember that according to a Hadeeth shareef, on the Day of Judgment (at some stage as there will be many stages for us to pass through),

Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam​

will be standing near the Hawz Al-kowsar /Al-Kowthar waiting for his ummah. A group of his sahaabah will appear coming and then a block will come between them and they will disappear. The Prophet salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam will say, " They were my sahaabah!" He will be replied, " You don't know what changes they made after you!"


Everyone of us must be as careful and worried for his own safety from Hell as he/she will be on the day of Judgment. At that time everyone will say "nafsee, nafsee" ("myself, myself"). Keeping that hard situation in mind, we are not supposed to fight for others when even we don't know for sure what they did or/and who brought the changes. We only must try to find the 100 % true source for our guidance and that is the Holy Quraan. After understanding the Holy Quraan, we must check the matan (content) of ahadeeth in the light of the Holy Quraan, believing that Muhammad

salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam​

didn't say or do anything against the Book of Allah.


For myself, I testify that I am a Muslimah (a suni Muslimah) only. I only belong to the Muslim Ummah of

Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam​

. I don't belong to any partition, madh-hab, differences which happened after

Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam​

and for which there is no proof in the Quraan and Hadeeth. I respect all true sincere scholars of Islam but I will not fight for any changes made in the Deen and then attributed to the sincere scholars. I am against all such changes and among all that forest of confusion, I can get very clear guidance from the Holy Quraan. The same I wish for all sincere Muslims who are worried about the Accounting in the Here-After.

 

[Misbah-Abd]

Remember that according to a Hadeeth shareef, on the Day of Judgment (at some stage as there will be many stages for us to pass through),

Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam​

will be standing near the Hawz Al-kowsar /Al-Kowthar waiting for his ummah. A group of his sahaabah will appear coming and then a block will come between them and they will disappear. The Prophet salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam will say, " They were my sahaabah!" He will be replied, " You don't know what changes they made after you!"

Can you give me the source of that hadith please?

 

[azc]

[MENTION=36347]OmAbdullah[/MENTION]:

Sister, it's o.k. If your learn this deen by self-study.

But you are missing the basics. Your logic is wrong that what did not exist during prophetic era isn't acceptable. Then All the Islamic sciences will go in vain.

I don't belong to any partition, madh-hab, differences which happened after
Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallamand for which there is no proof in the Quraan and Hadeeth.

The same is applied to all books of ahadith, tafaseer of Quran, usool e fiqh, usool e hadith, usool of tafseer, books of sair o maghazeeh, ilm of kalam etc. All these were compiled or invented by fallible people.

We have no evidence to trust all these specific personalities the different Islamic sciences are attributed to...?

But we trust all these Islamic sciences and specific personalities without any proof from Quran and sunnah.

 

[Zafran]

For claiming such point, you must understand the Holy Quraan at first so that you, yourself, have strong ground to stand upon. You think, " you are absolutely free
to say or write anything to defeat others". But this is wrong thinking. The angels on you sides are making a record of everything and you will be judged according to that record. Remember the verse 18 of Surah Qaaf.


Surah Qaaf verse 18 (translation):


18. Man does not utter any word except that with him is an observer prepared [to record]

Indeed.........But the point stands about the Hanifi madhab and wali. Its a famous and well known difference.

 

[azc]

[MENTION=36347]OmAbdullah[/MENTION]:

The Prophet salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam will say, " They were my sahaabah!" He will be replied, " You don't know what changes they made after you!"

sahaba = companions of prophet s.a.w ....?

 

[OmAbdullah]

@OmAbdullah: sahaba = companions of prophet s.a.w ....?

Yes, this is a hadeeth. You should search for it.

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@OmAbdullah:

Sister, it's o.k. If your learn this deen by self-study.

But you are missing the basics. Your logic is wrong that what did not exist during prophetic era isn't acceptable. Then All the Islamic sciences will go in vain.


The same is applied to all books of ahadith, tafaseer of Quran, usool e fiqh, usool e hadith, usool of tafseer, books of sair o maghazeeh, ilm of kalam etc. All these were compiled or invented by fallible people.

We have no evidence to trust all these specific personalities the different Islamic sciences are attributed to...?

But we trust all these Islamic sciences and specific personalities without any proof from Quran and sunnah.

The Holy Quraan is a very comprehensive Book. It is miraculous. Ahaadeeth, tafaseer and Islamic sciences are all found in the Holy Quraan. Of course, for us Muslims, only that hadeeth, tafseer and /or science is acceptable which doesn't go against the Quraan. ​

It

is true that I had started understanding the Holy Quraan at my own, in my student life. Since then I was always in contact with the Holy Quraan. Later I found a chance to get admission in an Islamic University. Then, by the grace of Allah, only due to the knowledge of the Holy Quraan, my level was such that I used to argue with and advise my teachers. My sincere teachers always accepted my argument. That was due to the Miraculous Quraan. And my score in the exams used to be very high. All is due to the Great Book of Allah, all praise is due for Allah alone. I always encourage both Muslims and non-Muslims to understand the Holy Quraan so that they don't cry and regret when they see the angels of death.​

See, Allah has made the Holy Quraan a proof of the Prophet-hood of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wasallam to all future generations. That is because the Holy Quraan has the answers to all questions raised about religion in any branch of knowledge. This is wonderful but is true because the Holy Quraan is a Book of All-Mighty Allah!
​

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Indeed.........But the point stands about the Hanifi madhab and wali. Its a famous and well known difference.

Brother your answer is not correct. my sincere advice to you is to understand the Holy Quraan so that at the time of death you don't bite your hands for the wrong arguments.

 

[Misbah-Abd]

Yes, this is a hadeeth. You should search for it.

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I cannot find that hadith online during my search. Why don't you just tell us what hadith book you got that from?

 

[azc]

[MENTION=36347]OmAbdullah[/MENTION]:

only that hadeeth, tafseer and /or science is acceptable which doesn't go against the Quraan.

Do you think your quoted hadith about sahaba ikram ra is against the quran or not...?

Ahaadeeth, tafaseer and Islamic sciences are all found in the Holy Quraan.

What the Quran say about wali...?

 

[Zafran]

Brother your answer is not correct. my sincere advice to you is to understand the Holy Quraan so that at the time of death you don't bite your hands for the wrong arguments.

Its correct.

 

[OmAbdullah]

@OmAbdullah:



Do you think your quoted hadith about sahaba ikram ra is against the quran or not...?

What the Quran say about wali...?

This Hadeeth is not against the Holy Quraan. Even many other ahaadeeth support this hadeeth.

The hadeeth about wali is not against the Holy Quraan. Even our logic and wisdom strongly supports this hadeeth. If you want proof from me for both of these statements, then I am ready to give the proof but I need time for it as it needs long discussion and I am very busy now.

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I cannot find that hadith online during my search. Why don't you just tell us what hadith book you got that from?

I am sad that at present I have no hadeeth book with me and have no time to search on line. I remember this hadeeth very well from my past study. I may have read it in a tafseer of the Holy Quraan. Many ahaadeeth I come across in the Tafseer and at that time I and any such reader can understand the relation of Hadeeth with the verses of the Holy Quraan. Therefore I always advise the Muslim brothers and sisters to be in close contact with the understanding of the Holy Quraan from good tafseer Books.

 

[OmAbdullah]

@azc


I think only one verse i.e. verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa (An-Nisaa) and its explanatory notes 56 and 57 are enough to answer your question regarding Wali. You can see it at tafheem.net (then go to "towards understanding Quraan").

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I cannot find that hadith online during my search. Why don't you just tell us what hadith book you got that from?

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Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force where upon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"
(Sahihal-Bukhari)
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This hadeeth as given on the internet, is changed a little. In fact the hadeeth that I had read in the past and that was more acceptable to logic said that a block will come between them. That means the groups of the followers and companions will be turned away from the path of the Al-Kawthar Spring from far away, they will not reach the Spring. The above hadeeth is wronged by the words that they will be brought to him (salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam) (near the Spring) and then will be forcefully pulled away.

 

[Misbah-Abd]

@azc


I think only one verse i.e. verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa (An-Nisaa) and its explanatory notes 56 and 57 are enough to answer your question regarding Wali. You can see it at tafheem.net (then go to "towards understanding Quraan").

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Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force where upon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"
(Sahihal-Bukhari)
******************************************************************************

This hadeeth as given on the internet, is changed a little. In fact the hadeeth that I had read in the past and that was more acceptable to logic said that a block will come between them. That means the groups of the followers and companions will be turned away from the path of the Al-Kawthar Spring from far away, they will not reach the Spring. The above hadeeth is wronged by the words that they will be brought to him (salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam) (near the Spring) and then will be forcefully pulled away.

Now I have seen it online. If anybody has Fath Bari in Arabic by Ibn Hajr please provide an explanation to this hadith because I see shiite web pages using this hadith as evidence of the Sahabah r.a. going astray. And I don't believe the translated word "companions" means the Prophets s.a.a.w. companions he had when he was alive but rather his followers that he never met. And Allah Knows Best.

 

[OmAbdullah]

Now I have seen it online. If anybody has Fath Bari in Arabic by Ibn Hajr please provide an explanation to this hadith because I see shiite web pages using this hadith as evidence of the Sahabah r.a. going astray. And I don't believe the translated word "companions" means the Prophets s.a.a.w. companions he had when he was alive but rather his followers that he never met. And Allah Knows Best.

Allah knows best. Shiyah race attack those sahaabah r A a who were even given the glad tidings of Jannah in their life. They hate Umar and Abu Bakar and Ai'shah radhi-ya-Allaho anhum. This hadeeth is not about such sahaabah rAa. I understand that all those Muslims who used to sit in the company of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam were called his sahaabah although some of them were very close to him due to their great struggle in the service of Islam. If you search in the Holy Quraan you will find Allah's different statements about them. You can see such statements in the surah Al-Tawbah (At-Tawbah), surah Al-Ahzaab, and some other surahs. Insha-Allah, later I will try (if I get time) to post the exact verses about different categories of them.

 

[Misbah-Abd]

Allah knows best. Shiyah race attack those sahaabah r A a who were even given the glad tidings of Jannah in their life. They hate Umar and Abu Bakar and Ai'shah radhi-ya-Allaho anhum. This hadeeth is not about such sahaabah rAa. I understand that all those Muslims who used to sit in the company of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam were called his sahaabah although some of them were very close to him due to their great struggle in the service of Islam. If you search in the Holy Quraan you will find Allah's different statements about them. You can see such statements in the surah Al-Tawbah (At-Tawbah), surah Al-Ahzaab, and some other surahs. Insha-Allah, later I will try (if I get time) to post the exact verses about different categories of them.

I know them. That hadith should of been translated as followers and not to be retained as Sahaba because of this misunderstanding that the Shia use to justify their deviation.

 

[azc]

This Hadeeth is not against the Holy Quraan. Even many other ahaadeeth support this hadeeth. The hadeeth about wali is not against the Holy Quraan. Even our logic and wisdom strongly supports this hadeeth. If you want proof from me for both of these statements, then I am ready to give the proof but I need time for it as it needs long discussion and I am very busy now.- - - Updated - - -I am sad that at present I have no hadeeth book with me and have no time to search on line. I remember this hadeeth very well from my past study. I may have read it in a tafseer of the Holy Quraan. Many ahaadeeth I come across in the Tafseer and at that time I and any such reader can understand the relation of Hadeeth with the verses of the Holy Quraan. Therefore I always advise the Muslim brothers and sisters to be in close contact with the understanding of the Holy Quraan from good tafseer Books.

O.k. sister. Take your time

 

[OmAbdullah]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] for the position of Wali You can see the verse 34 of the Surah Al-Nisaa as I posted before. For the word "wali" you can see the verse 282 of the surah Al-Baqarah, it is the longest verse in the holy Quraan and gives orders about writing a lone and/or a business agreement in front of witnesses. The word wali comes as: ... "فليملل وليه بالعدل" ("then his wali should dictate it with justice").

 

[azc]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] for the position of Wali You can see the verse 34 of the Surah Al-Nisaa as I posted before. For the word "wali" you can see the verse 282 of the surah Al-Baqarah, it is the longest verse in the holy Quraan and gives orders about writing a lone and/or a business agreement in front of witnesses. The word wali comes as: ... "فليملل وليه بالعدل" ("then his wali should dictate it with justice").

Verse 34, surah al nisa is related to husband wife matter.

Verse 282 of al baqrah is related to dealings or transactions of money.

Both the verses have nothing to do with 'wali'
If you apply this ayat of al baqrah to woman then it should be applied to man too as generally this kind of transaction is done between men.

 

[ChosenTCO]

All in all, every rule has an exception. This is no different.
It is not always that a sister can find herself a just wali where she can simply go to him and asked to be married off to another guy. Sometimes a girl cannot find either a just father as a wali nor a just imam (let alone an imam in the first place) to marry her off. So in such cases, what must a girl do? Find any muslim guy from her family or elsewhere to act as her wali? Because i myself think that such actions would take away value from these rulings in islam. But at the same times, with the increasing injustice from parents and people in authority in general, it has become increasingly difficult to follow the rulings of islam. Im sure these rulings would work perfectly fine if both parties did what they where meant to do. But this is not the case in these wretched times.

 

[OmAbdullah]

Verse 34, surah al nisa is related to husband wife matter.

Verse 282 of al baqrah is related to dealings or transactions of money.

Both the verses have nothing to do with 'wali'
If you apply this ayat of al baqrah to woman then it should be applied to man too as generally this kind of transaction is done between men.

The verse 34 of the surah Al-Nisaa is not limited to the superiority and responsibilities of a husband regarding his wife only. This verse is vastly applied for the superiority and responsibilities of Muslim men in general. A father is a ruler of the family according to this verse. So he is responsible for his daughters' wellbeing. The brothers are also responsible. Rather the men of the whole Muslim society are responsible. A Muslim shouldn't act as a frog at the bottom of a well so that if it is informed about the huge stores of water in oceans and rivers etc. it cannot accept this truth because it has not seen the upper earth. Quraan must be understood as a whole. Regarding one thing all or many texts about that thing must be considered. It is not possible for me or for any person to present this whole ocean-like light of the Holy Quraan within short time for the understanding of its rulings. I have taken many years to understand it. You also need its thorough study for long time. But at this level you should listen to those sincere advisers who have passed their lives in a struggle to understand the Holy Quraan.


Suppose you are a father having young daughters of marriage age or you are a mature adult brother having young sisters ready for marriage. Will you let them do their marriages at their own and then go into sufferings at the hands of unserious men who take benefit of the weakness of women and just play and pass time. If anyone deprives you of your authority to stand at the back of your daughter or sister then will you not apply the Command of Allah All-Mighty as given in the verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa to protect the rights and status of your daughters or sisters as the case may be???