Was "Christ" a "Christian"?:

[bamboozled]

I havnt really got time to reply to all your replies but I will tonight Inshallah.
Just to answer this one that caught my eye. About Jesus PBUH claiming divinity. you missed my point, I said there was not a single unambiguous statement in the entire bible where Jesus PBUH says, HIMSELF " I am god" or "Worship me". You would think something so important God would have made obvious like in the Quran. Mashallah no grey areas.

I said:

"another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. " and then I gave the link directly after. The 2nd quote you gave I cant understand, the language confuses me, and I dont want to say it means something it doesnt. Someone else I am sure can help me there.

If you do not accept the Bible as the truth, then evidence may be scant.However, in the Bible, the following speaks for itself:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

My brother and I are Muslims. I and my brother are one. Doesnt mean we are the same person, only we have the same purpose.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Where does he claim divinity here. If anything this supports my point about God and Jesus PBUH being same in purpose.

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my father" - Same purpose, not person.

"and henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." God told Jesus PBUH how to handle the people, he acted on Gods behalf as a messenger. Jesus PBUH represented Gods Law. He never said I am god.

He preched quite the contrary:
"(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]"

Furthermore
The bible even says that Jesus is a Prophet not God:
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

(i)"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

(ii)"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]"


http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=127&Itemid=100

Again, there is not a single unambigous statement in the entire bible where Jesus PBUH says I am god, or worship me. He is a Prophet of God,according to even your scriptures.

 

[جوري]

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

I have no idea what you are rambling about, and to be honest I can't be made to waste my time on more nonsense.
tell me where is the 'retribution' when god allegedly ate your sin, so that you can sin carte blanche?

The laws of justice of this world, only cover your crimes done in this world. the question of retribution/ forgiveness, has to do with sincere repentance, and expiation of your sin, for instance if you committed murder, the expiation of that grave sin is to be put to death as well, however, to be forgiven for it, has to do with sincere repentance and only God can judge whether you're actually sorry for your crimes and sins or not, it is a matter of divine justice not delegated to humans. It is Not a matter of a man/god eating sins, so we can murder, be put away for life with health insurance and three square meals, and then be well received at the pearly gates.



hope that clarifies it for you, and I hope you realize how silly your spin on retribution sounds to the rest of the world!

all the best

 

[Follower]

The laws of justice of this world, only cover your crimes done in this world. the question of retribution/ forgiveness, has to do with sincere repentance, and expiation of your sin, for instance if you committed murder, the expiation of that grave sin is to be put to death as well, however, to be forgiven for it, has to do with sincere repentance and only God can judge whether you're actually sorry for your crimes and sins or not, it is a matter of divine justice not delegated to humans.

Gossamer - Are you saying that all one has to do is sincerely repent and we all go to paradise?

Don't you have to do some good deeds too to out weitgh the bad deeds?

 

[Zafran]

Gossamer - Are you saying that all one has to do is sincerely repent and we all go to paradise?

Don't you have to do some good deeds too to out weitgh the bad deeds?

You have to rely on God's mercy to Go to heaven
are you saying that a rapist who does not repent is going to heaven??? or a man that beats his parents and doesnt repent will go to heaven???

Or do you have to believe someone died for you instead?

 

[A-Believer-25]

God does not need someone to die to forgive sins, God is All Powerful, He can forgive anyone He wants. Jesus (peace be upon him) was only a prophet. There are even places in the Bible which prove that Jesus (Peace be upon him) was only a human being and a prophet and not God. Astaghfirullah

 

[fromgenesis]

God is Most Just, and He forgives whom He wills. Our argument is not the Christian argument; we believe that unless we repent and turn away from sin, God will punish us. However, we also hope for His mercy. A Muslim lives in a balance between the two (hope and fear).

Repent and turn away from sin is the exact same in Christianity. What we however say in Christianity is that we still sin. In Islam you rely on Allah's mercy, and works to get to heaven for the sin that you still do. In Christianity we say that my works mean nothing and we can only rely on the blood of Jesus as the holy, sinless sacrifice for our sins. Why were sheep etc slaughtered in the Old Testament? As a sacrifice for sin - pointing forward to Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice when He was "slaughtered" for our sins.

We do not justify any sin by saying "God will forgive us, no problem". We must come to Him in prayer and sincerely ask for forgiveness and give up our sinful ways. This is far different than the doctrine of some Christians who say God will forgive all sin, therefor sin is OK. That is an unacceptable position in Islam, and it is nothing short of arrogance.

You are 100% correct. Not only arrogance but a total misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

The Christian idea of Jesus dying for the sins of the world is nonsense; where is the justice in that? An innocent man (or was it God, I get confused) is sacrificed because God can't forgive the sins of man? Astaughfirallah (that means "O Allah forgive me"). Does...not...compute.

What was the issue with sacrificing animals for the sin of people?

Although we do not compare Allah to His creation, this is like a game creator who makes his game so difficult that not a single person can beat the game without a cheat code that allows them to win the game. What's the point in that? Why would God create this life as a test if He's just going to give us a free pass? Shouldn't we all be accountable for our actions?

Again you are right. We cannot win the game. Now us as humans want to win the game by our cleverness and good works. As humble people we come to God and say" God, I cannot win this game. But your free pass only requires of me to submit to you as all knowing, and accept this free pass without deserving it. I know it cost you so much to give this free pass to me, and I stand before you in humility and thankfulness.

 

[fromgenesis]

I havnt really got time to reply to all your replies but I will tonight Inshallah.

Thank you. Time is also a problem for me and thus appreciate your effort.

I said:

"another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. " and then I gave the link directly after. The 2nd quote you gave I cant understand, the language confuses me, and I dont want to say it means something it doesnt. Someone else I am sure can help me there.



My brother and I are Muslims. I and my brother are one. Doesnt mean we are the same person, only we have the same purpose.



Where does he claim divinity here. If anything this supports my point about God and Jesus PBUH being same in purpose.

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my father" - Same purpose, not person.

"and henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." God told Jesus PBUH how to handle the people, he acted on Gods behalf as a messenger. Jesus PBUH represented Gods Law. He never said I am god.

He preched quite the contrary:
"(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]"

Furthermore
The bible even says that Jesus is a Prophet not God:
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

(i)"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

(ii)"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]"


http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=127&Itemid=100

Again, there is not a single unambigous statement in the entire bible where Jesus PBUH says I am god, or worship me. He is a Prophet of God,according to even your scriptures.

It may be more clear what Jesus said if you were to claim the same. Now I suggest that people will make you out as either a nut case, or heavily disillusioned. That is what you have to decide. Was Jesus mistaken, deranged or was He speaking the truth? As far as what He was saying is concerned, you may find it difficult to accept or to understand but the Jews of the time understood exactly what He said:
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. He never claimed to be the Father, as you rightly point out - He placed himself under the authority of the Father - yet equal to Him. This forms part of the principle of the Trinity- where God reveals himself as God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[malayloveislam]

G-d, I never realize that this is a long thread!!! It's OK, but I don't think that Muslim brothers and sisters are arguing instead of explaining our belief to others, I don't believe in debate, because Truth will Prevail without the need to argue, instead it will come through Knowledge and Wisdom and of course all of those are granted by G-d.

Well, sacrifice of animal (ram, cow, camel) is Abrahamic tradition friend...

It's based from the sacrifice of Abraham (as) when he loves his son too much. G-d tests him at that time. Whether he loves G-d more or his family member. However, Abraham (as) and Ishmael (as) passed the test, and G-d ordered an angel to replace Ishmael (as) being replaced by a ram. They brought back the ram to their tent after the test. In Islamic tradition based from Abrahamic tradition, it's Ishmael who was going to be sacrificed but in Jews tradition, they claim that it's Isaac. That's another point and not the main point here for now. The main point is Qurban (sacrifice).

In Islam, we sacrifice animals like camel, ram, and cow in the celebration of Eidul-Adha (Qurban) apart of the act of worship but it's not for the offering to G-d because He doesn't need offerings or any blood offerings. The meat that we get from animal sacrifice will be distributed to other poor people so that they could together consume the meat. This is also a test to those who are with the belongings. Whether, they love their belongings (money, poultry, etc) or Allah (SWT). It also teaches us the meaning of sacrifice in the path of G-d, that is what Qurban means.

 

[malayloveislam]

Thank you. Time is also a problem for me and thus appreciate your effort.
It may be more clear what Jesus said if you were to claim the same. Now I suggest that people will make you out as either a nut case, or heavily disillusioned. That is what you have to decide. Was Jesus mistaken, deranged or was He speaking the truth? As far as what He was saying is concerned, you may find it difficult to accept or to understand but the Jews of the time understood exactly what He said:
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. He never claimed to be the Father, as you rightly point out - He placed himself under the authority of the Father - yet equal to Him. This forms part of the principle of the Trinity- where God reveals himself as God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

So, is this implies that all of us are also the children of G-d if we take it metaphorically or literally? We are all equal to Him? Then, what is the need for us to worship Him anymore? Isn't it we should worship ourselves? Because we also put ourselves under the authority of G-d. We submit ourselves to G-d, that's why we are now here as Muslims. Also, other prophets and messengers of G-d, are all the children of G-d? I can't get it? Does it also means G-d reveals Himself in us?

 

[fromgenesis]

G-d, I never realize that this is a long thread!!!

Is the use of God's name in vain tolerated in Islam?

Well, sacrifice of animal (ram, cow, camel) is Abrahamic tradition friend...

It's based from the sacrifice of Abraham (as) when he loves his son too much. G-d tests him at that time. Whether he loves G-d more or his family member. However, Abraham (as) and Ishmael (as) passed the test, and G-d ordered an angel to replace Ishmael (as) being replaced by a ram. They brought back the ram to their tent after the test. In Islamic tradition based from Abrahamic tradition, it's Ishmael who was going to be sacrificed but in Jews tradition, they claim that it's Isaac. That's another point and not the main point here for now. The main point is Qurban (sacrifice).

In Islam, we sacrifice animals like camel, ram, and cow in the celebration of Eidul-Adha (Qurban) apart of the act of worship but it's not for the offering to G-d because He doesn't need offerings or any blood offerings. The meat that we get from animal sacrifice will be distributed to other poor people so that they could together consume the meat. This is also a test to those who are with the belongings. Whether, they love their belongings (money, poultry, etc) or Allah (SWT). It also teaches us the meaning of sacrifice in the path of G-d, that is what Qurban means.

Yes, I can see that it may have become that in tradition. Christians sacrificed to God, some of which were as sin offering. The emphasis was not on giving up of earthly things, as is clear from reading Scripture.

The animals sacrificed in Christian practices had to be clean animals without blemish - a pure sacrifice.

In Christianity we take the origin back a bit further - To Cain and Abel after the fall, Moses, sacrificing to God, the lamb slain and blood on the door posts in the night that the first born of the Egyptians were killed, sacrifices by Aaron to God etc.

Why would you have to sacrifice animals - why not just give it away to the poor?

 

[fromgenesis]

So, is this implies that all of us are also the children of G-d if we take it metaphorically or literally? We are all equal to Him? Then, what is the need for us to worship Him anymore? Isn't it we should worship ourselves? Because we also put ourselves under the authority of G-d. We submit ourselves to G-d, that's why we are now here as Muslims. Also, other prophets and messengers of G-d, are all the children of G-d? I can't get it? Does it also means G-d reveals Himself in us?

That is the point. The Jews regarded themselves as children of God (and so do we) but not equal to Him. What Jesus said implied that He is equal to God. Therefore it would be impossible for us to say that "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" in response to a request to "Show us the Father". We are made in the image of God in what is described as Adam and Eve's moral disposition - called original righteousness (Ecc 7:29 Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things/Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.)

 

[malayloveislam]

Is the use of God's name in vain tolerated in Islam?

It's just an expression of surprise, nothing in vain. I would just use Ma-shaa-Allah (Anything that G-d wants) but since we use English, we have to at least try to be close to English language way when communicate although English isn't my first language :statisfie

Yes, I can see that it may have become that in tradition. Christians sacrificed to God, some of which were as sin offering. The emphasis was not on giving up of earthly things, as is clear from reading Scripture.

The animals sacrificed in Christian practices had to be clean animals without blemish - a pure sacrifice.

In Christianity we take the origin back a bit further - To Cain and Abel after the fall, Moses, sacrificing to God, the lamb slain and blood on the door posts in the night that the first born of the Egyptians were killed, sacrifices by Aaron to God etc.

Why would you have to sacrifice animals - why not just give it away to the poor?

Yea, Abel and Cain offerings signify sincerity that is shown through the offerings, but still G-d doesn't really need any offerings in the form of vegetation, meat, burnt offerings, blood, or anything. He is just testing His slaves, which actually teaches His slaves to face the life before entering the other world.

Why G-d should take the sin as offering? He clears the sin through His forgiveness when His slaves sincerely repent from wrong-doings. Each days we always committing wrong-doings, orally, verbally, mentally, and etc without we realize it or we realize it.

So, we still have to ask His forgiveness through prayer acts. Those repenting from the sin, praising, etc are all concluded in our daily prayers, five times day and night. We do not know how He forgives our sins, or whether our sins are all forgiven. But there is a sign for it. When you are more dedicated to the path of righteousness, and you feel bad committing evil things. However, if we feel that we are forgiven by G-d, there must be something wrong with it. Because we will think that we can anytime commit falsehood.

Why not giving them away to the poor instead of sacrificing them?

The sacrifice of animals (ram, camel, cow, etc) is the commemoration of Abraham (as) and his son, and among the acts of worship. We have other commemoration events like the effort of Hagar, and the stoning of deceiving satan (symbolic acts in pilgrimage rites) during Eidul-Adha which is also a pilgrimage season. This event is only in Eidul-Adha (Qurban), once a year, every Zulhijjah month of lunar calender.

There are few methods of Qurban when choosing the animal that are going to be sacrificed, it must not a handicapped animal, and also we could not cause the animal so much pain including we could not harm it or showing the blade that is going to be used. Also cutting the certain vein of animal which will cause immediate death to the animal without it feels the pain. The bones of the animal is also respected and couldn't be simply thrown into the dustbin, but have to be buried correctly. I can't explain much about the method because I'm not involved in the process. You may view the methods of Qurban or getting explanation from other members whom are more well versed about the method or were involved in the process, yet it's not the main purpose of the thread.

It's to make it easier for the poor so that, they don't have to go in vain slaughtering the animal and to make sure that everybody gets the meat equally, so that's why they slaughter it together. It is a feast, not a personal contribution. Actually there are also donation being made by other Muslims who are capable to buy the cow, camel, ram and being donated to the mosque committee, then the animal being sacrificed and the meat will be distributed to everyone.

If for the harvest, belongings, money, gold, silver, and etc. We have a special purification for them called Zakah. It is almost close to "Tithe" which is practiced by 16th C Catholics. But this is not for monastic or priest community but for poor Muslim. Because in our property, not all of them is our belongings. We might have the part of others, so we have several methods, specific time, categories of people who are qualified to receive Zakah, and calculation to pay the Zakah. It's also our pillar of religion beside obligatory prayers, and testimony of faith, they are all connected to each other. We are not a Muslim if we do not obey Zakah and other four pillars of religion :statisfie

 

[malayloveislam]

That is the point. The Jews regarded themselves as children of God (and so do we) but not equal to Him. What Jesus said implied that He is equal to God. Therefore it would be impossible for us to say that "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" in response to a request to "Show us the Father".

We are made in the image of God in what is described as Adam and Eve's moral disposition - called original righteousness (Ecc 7:29 Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things/Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.)

So, you believe that Jesus is a perfect being? So do we, he's among of our noble prophets and clean from any sins. We believe all of the prophets including Lot, david, Solomon, and others are all clean of any sin because G-d do not permit them to be sinful as they are prophets and His messengers to His slaves. But what made us different from Christians? We are made in the image of G-d? Jesus is the image of G-d? Sorry, I'm just analyzing it one by one.

In our previous belief in SEA, where our ancestors embraced Hindu-Buddhism, our kings are regarded as the image of G-d. That's why you can see certain people like in Thailand bow to their king.

So, we are alike Jesus. Because we have ears, eyes, nose, mouth, lips, hands, and other body parts. But we are divided into men and women, so we have genders.

But according to our faith and I believe the Jews too, we can't imagine G-d's image and He's of no gender instead of we use "He" which shows a male gender because it is translated from Arabic. This Universe isn't equal to Him, including those who inhabit the earth or walks in it. If He reveals Himself, why can't the Jews see Him when they ask Moses (as) to pray to G-d to reveal Himself in Thursina Mountain (Sinai)?

Who said this? It seems like an interpretation with quotation.

(Ecc 7:29 Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things/Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.)

 

[fromgenesis]

We do not know how He forgives our sins, or whether our sins are all forgiven. But there is a sign for it. When you are more dedicated to the path of righteousness, and you feel bad committing evil things. However, if we feel that we are forgiven by G-d, there must be something wrong with it. Because we will think that we can anytime commit falsehood.

Feeling that we are forgiven by God is not to think that we can do as we wish. God has given us his laws written on our hearts and if you love God, you will obey. To feel forgiven, creates within us a deep thankfulness when we know that despite our failings from time to time, He loved us enough to send us his Son, so that we may enjoy eternal life. You can know that your sins are forgiven - not because of what you did (we always sin despite some very good deeds) but because of what Jesus did - offering himself as a willing sacrifice for our sins. You can live with joy without the Satan accusing you that you are not doing enough, making you feeling guilty. This forgiveness is a gift. Our human hearts are often too proud to accept this gift - we want to earn it.

Why not giving them away to the poor instead of sacrificing them?

Thank you for your explanation and going into such detail. I can see that the ritual seems to also have some religious overtones but as a religious offering, I do not quite see the rationale/symbolism/type. :statisfie

 

[fromgenesis]

So, you believe that Jesus is a perfect being? So do we, he's among of our noble prophets and clean from any sins. We believe all of the prophets including Lot, david, Solomon, and others are all clean of any sin because G-d do not permit them to be sinful as they are prophets and His messengers to His slaves.

Jesus was without sin as was evidenced by the fact that they had to use trumped-up charges to convict Him. However, more than mere prophet, Jesus forgave sin (Mat 9:2). Can a prophet forgive sin? To claim David sinless, you will have to ignore his affair with Bathsheba and that he knowingly sent her husband to his grave.

But what made us different from Christians? We are made in the image of G-d? Jesus is the image of G-d? Sorry, I'm just analyzing it one by one.

We were all made in the image of God, but that righteousness was destroyed in the garden of Eden when man rejected God's rules. We are now in a fallen state - removed from God by sin - that we inherit and that which we commit ourselves. There is only one way in which this relationship can be restored - through the blood of Jesus. The difference is always Jesus. Few have a problem with the concept of God, but Jesus is the stumbling block.(1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; )

So, we are alike Jesus. Because we have ears, eyes, nose, mouth, lips, hands, and other body parts. But we are divided into men and women, so we have genders.

Yes, Jesus was sent from the Father, humbled himself to become mortal man, yet without sinning.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If He reveals Himself, why can't the Jews see Him when they ask Moses (as) to pray to G-d to reveal Himself in Thursina Mountain (Sinai)?

Which passage do you refer to?

Who said this? It seems like an interpretation with quotation.

It is normally attributed to Solomon.

 

[Uthman]

Are we still talking about whether Christ was a Christian?

 

[fromgenesis]

Are we still talking about whether Christ was a Christian?

I think we have digressed slightly and looking at the nature of Jesus. Should we rather start another thread?

 

[Uthman]

Should we rather start another thread?

Yes please!

:threadclo