Was Islam spread by SWORD?

[Khoza]

Re: What do they believe?

Well said bro. I agree iwth what you've said. i knwo the Moghuls tried to convert people by force. But Islam was around well before the Moghuls came into power (correct me if i'm wrong) and its continued to convert after the loss of their rule.

Now what you have just said is 100% coherant with historical facts and yes i do know people in some parts of India many Hindus still convert to Islam.

Ps: there have been numerous cases especially in the 90's of forced conversion in the UK to Islam

 

[Mohsin]

Re: What do they believe?

Now what you have just said is 100% coherant with historical facts and yes i do know people in some parts of India many Hindus still convert to Islam.

Thankyou for agreeing. Shame Dhillon can't be more like you JSC and JSS. He denies any peaceful reversions

Ps: there have been numerous cases especially in the 90's of forced conversion in the UK to Islam

Like i said before, thats hard to believe. In britains they would never allow something like that to happen.

 

[sonz]

Re: What do they believe?

is this logical? lol you now want me to logically conclude that isalm may have been spread in some places (even though i dont believe that either) peacefully then it must have done the same in india, the problem is we have shown through an abundance of proof that it wasnt and even god could no longer bear the tyranny so started another religion, the proof is so stark but you keep brininging in other issues you better make sure you never call me illogical again;D

what ru talking about. u dont even the history of ur own country

chk this out

Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (India's Prime Minsiter 1947-64) in ‘The Discovery of India,’ 1946, p. 218, 225.

“The impact of the invaders from the north-west and of Islam on India had been considerable. It had pointed out and shone up the abuses that had crept into Hindu society - the petrification of caste, untouchability, exclusiveness carried to fantastic lengths. The idea of the brotherhood of Islam and the theoretical equality of its adherents made a powerful appeal especially to those in the Hindu fold who were denied any semblance of equal treatment.” “...his (Babar’s) account tells us of the cultural poverty that had descended on North India. Partly this was due to Timur's destruction, partly due to the exodus of many learned men and artists and noted craftsmen to the South. But this was due also to the drying up of the creative genius of the Indian people.”
“The coming of Islam and of a considerable number of people from outside with different ways of living and thought affected these beliefs and structure. A foreign conquest, with all its evils, has one advantage: it widens the mental horizon of the people and compels them to look out of their shells. They realize that the world is a much bigger and a more variegated place than they had imagined. So the Afghan conquest had affected India and many changes had taken place. Even more so the Moghals, who were far more cultured and advanced in the ways of living than the Afghans, brought changes to India. In particular, they introduced the refinements for which Iran was famous.”
​

Dr. Pattabhi Sitaramayya, Presidential Address to the Fifty-fifth Session of the Indian Congress, Jaipur, 1948.

“(The Muslims had) enriched our culture, strengthened our administration, and brought near distant parts of the country... It (the Muslim Period) touched deeply the social life and the literature of the land.” ​

Humayun Kabir in 'The Indian Heritage,' 1955, p. 153.

“Islam's democratic challenge has perhaps never been equaled by any other religious or social system. Its advent on the Indian scene was marked by a profound stirring of consciousness. It modified the basis of Hindu social structure throughout northern India.” ​

N.S. Mehta, in 'Islam and the Indian Civilization,' reproduced in 'Hindustan ke Ahd-i-Wusta ki ek Jhalak,' by S.A. Rahman.

“Islam had brought to India a luminous torch which rescued humanity from darkness at a time when old civilizations were on the decline and lofty moral ideals had got reduced to empty intellectual concepts. As in other lands, so in India too, the conquests of Islam were more widespread in the world of thought than in the world of politics. Today, also, the Islamic World is a spiritual brotherhood which is held together by community of faith in the Oneness of God and human equality. Unfortunately, the history of Islam in this country remained tied up for centuries with that of government with the result that a veil was cast over its true spirit, and its fruits and blessings were hidden from the popular eye.” ​

Prof. K.M. Panikkar in 'A Survey of Indian History,' 1947, p. 163.

“One thing is clear. Islam had a profound effect on Hinduism during this period. Medieval theism is in some ways a reply to the attack of Islam; and the doctrine of medieval teachers by whatever names their gods are known are essentially theistic. It is the one supreme God that is the object of the devotee's adoration and it is to His grace that we are asked to look for redemption.”
​

Zaheeruddin Babar in his Autobiography 'Tuzuk-i-Babari,' (Founder of Mughal Dynasty, Ruled India 1526-1530).

“There are neither good horses in India, nor good meat, nor grapes, nor melons, nor ice, nor cold water, nor baths, nor candle, nor candlestick, nor torch. In the place of the candle, they use the divat. It rests on three legs: a small iron piece resembling the snout of a lamp... Even in case of Rajas and Maharajas, the attendants stand holding the clumsy divat in their hands when they are in need of a light in the night. “There is no arrangement for running water in gardens and buildings. The buildings lack beauty, symmetry, ventilation and neatness. Commonly, the people walk barefooted with a narrow slip tied round the loins. Women wear a dress ...”
​

Dr. Gustav le Bon in 'Les Civilisations de L'Inde' (translated by S.A. Bilgrami).

"There does not exist a history of ancient India. Their books contain no historical data whatever, except for a few religious books in which historical information is buried under a heap of parables and folk-lore, and their buildings and other monuments also do nothing to fill the void for the oldest among them do not go beyond the third century B.C. To discover facts about India of the ancient times is as difficult a task as the discovery of the island of Atlantis, which, according to Plato, was destroyed due to the changes of the earth... The historical phase of India began with the Muslim invasion. Muslims were India's first historians." ​

Sir William Digby in 'Prosperous India: A Revelation,' p. 30.

"England's industrial supremacy owes its origin to the vast hoards of Bengal and the Karnatik being made available for her use....Before Plassey was fought and won, and before the stream of treasure began to flow to England, the industries of our country were at a very low ebb."
​

Brooks Adams in 'The Law of Civilization and Decay,' London, 1898, pp. 313-17.

"Very soon after Plassey the Bengal plunder began to arrive in London, and the effect appears to have been instantaneous, for all authorities agree that the Industrial Revolution, the event that has divided the l9th century from all antecedent time, began with the year 1760....Plassey was fought in 1757, and probably nothing has ever equaled the rapidity of the change which followed....In themselves inventions are passive, many of the most important having laid dormant for centuries, waiting for a sufficient store of force to have accumulated to have set them working. That store must always take the shape of money, and money not hoarded, but in motion. "...Before the influx of the Indian treasure, and the expansion of credit which followed, no force sufficient for this purpose existed....The factory system was the child of 'Industrial Revolution,' and until capital had accumulated in masses, capable of giving solidity to large bodies of labour, manufactures were carried on by scattered individuals....Possibly since the world began, no investment has ever yielded the profit reaped from the Indian plunder, because for nearly fifty years Great Britain stood without a competitor."
​

Muslims in India - An Overview

The Muslims entered Sind, India, in 711 C.E., the same year they entered Spain. Their entry in India was prompted by an attempt to free the civilian Muslim hostages whose ship was taken by sea pirates in the territory of Raja Dahir, King of Sind. After diplomatic attempts failed, Hajjaj bin Yusuf, the Umayyad governor in Baghdad, dispatched a 17-year-old commander by the name Muhammad bin Qasim with a small army. Muhammad bin Qasim defeated Raja Dahir at what is now Hyderabad in Pakistan. In pursuing the remnant of Dahir's army and his son’s supporters (Indian kings), Muhammad bin Qasim fought at Nirun, Rawar, Bahrore, Brahmanabad, Aror, Dipalpur and Multan. By 713 C.E., he established his control in Sind and parts of Punjab up to the borders of Kashmir. A major part of what is now Pakistan came under Muslim control in 713 C.E. and remained so throughout the centuries until some years after the fall of the Mughal Empire in 1857. Muhammad bin Qasim’s treatment of the Indian population was so just that when he was called back to Baghdad the civilians were greatly disheartened and gave him farewell in tears. There was a Muslim community in Malabar, southwest India as early as 618 C.E. as a result of King Chakrawati Farmas accepting Islam at the hands of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The Muslim presence as rulers in India dates from 711 C.E. Since then, different Muslim rulers (Turks of Central Asia, Afghans, and the descendants of the Mongol - the Mughals) entered India, primarily fought their fellow Muslim rulers, and established their rule under various dynastic names. By the eleventh century, the Muslims had established their capital at Delhi, which remained the principal seat of power until the last ruler of Mughal Dynasty, Bahadur Shah Zafar, was deposed in 1857 by the British. A few British visitors were given permission by Akbar to stay in Eastern India more than two centuries before. The British abused that privilege, and within a few decades the British began to collaborate with Rajas and Nawabs in military expeditions against the Mughals and Muslim rulers of the east, southeast and south India. After two centuries of fighting, the British succeeded in abolishing the Mughal rule in 1857.
Muslims were a minority when they ruled major parts of India for nearly a thousand years. They were well liked generally as rulers for their justice, social and cultural values, respect for freedom to practice religion as prescribed by the religion of various communities, freedom of speech, legal system in accordance with the dictates and established norms of each religious community, public works and for establishing educational institutions. In their days as rulers, the Muslims constituted about twenty percent of India's population. Today, Indian Muslims constitute about fifteen percent of India's population, about 150 million, and they are the second largest Muslim community in the world.
The region now part of Pakistan and many other parts of India were predominantly Muslim. After the British takeover in 1857, many of these areas remained under loose control of Muslims. When the British decided to withdraw from India without a clear direction for the future of Muslims (former rulers), a political solution was reached for some of the Muslim majority areas. This resulted in the division of India and the creation of Pakistan in 1947.
Among the famous Muslims scientists, historians and travelers who visited and lived, though briefly, in India were Al-Biruni, Al-Masu'di, and Ibn Battuta. Their writings illuminate us with the Indian society and culture. Al-Biruni stayed in India for twenty years. Ibn Battuta, an Andalusian who was born in Morocco, served as a Magistrate of Delhi (1334-1341) during the reign of Sultan Muhammad Tughluk. It is conceivable that Ibn Battuta’s description of Muslim India inspired Ferdinand and Isabella who had taken over the last Muslim kingdom of Granada, Spain in 1492. That same year Columbus received the permission in the Alhambra palace (of Granada) and made his famous voyage bound for India in search of gold and spice but he landed in the Americas.


​

http://www.load-islam.com/C/History/Islamic_civilization_in_India/

 

[sonz]

Re: What do they believe?

written by a muslim, why dont you first refute my references there plenty for you to dwell over and did you actually read your own article it shows only a few good things but majority is bad as always thats why all the lands you ever conquered kicked you out like spain lol

written by a muslim? these are quotes of books and statements from famous non-muslim individuals. where is the part that its written by a muslim.

ur in denial and a warmonger

 

[jss]

Re: What do they believe?

true dont bring it up again.

People cannot be forced to follow Islam if they did not believe in it from their hearts.:rollseyes You can't be a Muslim if you don't truly believe so there wouldn't have been any point in supposedly making someone into a Muslim. It just does'nt work that way.

I respect your point but not everyone is like minded. The policies of some intolerent rulars did result in mass conversions of Hindus by force and by crippling taxes on non-Muslims. Aurangzeb went about demolishing Hindu temples and forcing people to convert by the sword, the result of which many did.

A moderator on here pointed out some quotes. It would be a lie on my behalf to suggest that all Muslims were intolerent. In India the caste system was deeply embedded in medieval Indian Hindu society. The arrival of Muslims on the scene did add to the cultural richness of the region and culturally there were some changes and the cultural virtues of Islam and Hinduism were combined.
Furthermore not all Mughul rulars were mean. For instance Emperor Akbar was deeply secular and tolerent of non-Muslims. He was also close to Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj. However Akbars son Jehangir was a different story altogether.
To cut it short the Muslim arrival did have with it disadvantages and advantages but the mass forced conversions did happen.
Before I said that no one should blindly believe this detail but do the research for themselves.

peace

 

[Noora_z3]

Re: What do they believe?

there are many sikhs who were focfully converted to islam during partition and their children have been brainwashed about their infidel past.
ISDhillon

ps remember this was not supposed to turn into a debate about conversions.

U said that happned during partition? who was ruling India at that time? and who forced them to convert?

 

[bint_muhammed]

look people are worried that islam is the fastst growing religion and now are making false accustaion that it was spread by sword. GET OVER IT ISLAM WAS SPREAD BY ALLAHS RAHMAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Skillganon]

Re: What do they believe?

had have been happeningrecentry in the uk aswell (and probably in other aprts of the world aswell).

In the UK? Bah I must be living in MARS!!

 

[bint_muhammed]

Look Yeah Explain One Thing To Me As Islam Is The Fastes Growing Religion In The World, Who Is Spreading Force On Them Now! U Guys Are Twisted Wonder What You Parents Have Been Saying To You. If The Indian Muslim Ancestors Whad Converted By Force, Why Is The Religion So Strong Amongst Their Generation! You Cant Just Practice A Religion If You Dont Believe In It And Pass It Down! Unless You Guys Do??

 

[Skillganon]

Look Yeah Explain One Thing To Me As Islam Is The Fastes Growing Religion In The World, Who Is Spreading Force On Them Now! U Guys Are Twisted Wonder What You Parents Have Been Saying To You. If The Indian Muslim Ancestors Whad Converted By Force, Why Is The Religion So Strong Amongst Their Generation! You Cant Just Practice A Religion If You Dont Believe In It And Pass It Down! Unless You Guys Do??

You can say I am from an indian descent, although this is not the case since borders keep shifting and new lands being named. You can say my some of my recent ancestors may have been idol worshippers, but this is not recorded, and thank Allah(s.w.t) I was born one, maybe I would of have found ISLAM oneday, knowing myself to question everything a bit. Anyway their is no record of force in my recent ancestors conversion (as their is no record whatsoever) than I can equally conclude ISLAM did not spread by force to my recent ancestors.

 

[bint_muhammed]

You can say I am from an indian descent, although this is not the case since borders keep shifting and new lands being named. You can say my some of my recent ancestors may have been idol worshippers, but this is not recorded, and thank Allah(s.w.t) I was born one, maybe I would of have found ISLAM oneday, knowing myself to question everything a bit. Anyway their is no record of force in my recent ancestors conversion (as their is no record whatsoever) than I can equally conclude ISLAM did not spread by force to my recent ancestors.

exactly!:happy:

 

[ISDhillon]

Re: What do they believe?

kay:

U said that happned during partition? who was ruling India at that time? and who forced them to convert?

during partition there was no rule of law and yes muslims were converting by force you can read many of these stories in the daily tribune. Its ok because we killed all the muslims in punjab also, so were even steven

However I am proud to be a direct descendent of those brave sikhs who not only killed the jihad movement against us but also sent back all the invaders to arabia where they came from, looking back who prospered? we did without a doubt such tyrants were two-a-penny rulers who had their heydey but nobody will even spit on their graves yet we flourished and came into our own even though the odds were against us.

No offence to islam thoughkay:

ISDhillon

 

[ISDhillon]

Re: What do they believe?

In the UK? Bah I must be living in MARS!!

or perhaps uranus:statisfie

 

[sonz]

Re: What do they believe?

kay:


during partition there was no rule of law and yes muslims were converting by force you can read many of these stories in the daily tribune. Its ok because we killed all the muslims in punjab also, so were even steven

However I am proud to be a direct descendent of those brave sikhs who not only killed the jihad movement against us but also sent back all the invaders to arabia where they came from, looking back who prospered? we did without a doubt such tyrants were two-a-penny rulers who had their heydey but nobody will even spit on their graves yet we flourished and came into our own even though the odds were against us.

No offence to islam thoughkay:

ISDhillon

lol

why dont u give us "stories" where muslimz were forced to "convert"

i will let the facts speak and not some sikh propaganda

Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (India's Prime Minsiter 1947-64) in ‘The Discovery of India,’ 1946, p. 218, 225.

“The impact of the invaders from the north-west and of Islam on India had been considerable. It had pointed out and shone up the abuses that had crept into Hindu society - the petrification of caste, untouchability, exclusiveness carried to fantastic lengths. The idea of the brotherhood of Islam and the theoretical equality of its adherents made a powerful appeal especially to those in the Hindu fold who were denied any semblance of equal treatment.” “...his (Babar’s) account tells us of the cultural poverty that had descended on North India. Partly this was due to Timur's destruction, partly due to the exodus of many learned men and artists and noted craftsmen to the South. But this was due also to the drying up of the creative genius of the Indian people.”
“The coming of Islam and of a considerable number of people from outside with different ways of living and thought affected these beliefs and structure. A foreign conquest, with all its evils, has one advantage: it widens the mental horizon of the people and compels them to look out of their shells. They realize that the world is a much bigger and a more variegated place than they had imagined. So the Afghan conquest had affected India and many changes had taken place. Even more so the Moghals, who were far more cultured and advanced in the ways of living than the Afghans, brought changes to India. In particular, they introduced the refinements for which Iran was famous.”
​

Dr. Pattabhi Sitaramayya, Presidential Address to the Fifty-fifth Session of the Indian Congress, Jaipur, 1948.

“(The Muslims had) enriched our culture, strengthened our administration, and brought near distant parts of the country... It (the Muslim Period) touched deeply the social life and the literature of the land.” ​

Humayun Kabir in 'The Indian Heritage,' 1955, p. 153.

“Islam's democratic challenge has perhaps never been equaled by any other religious or social system. Its advent on the Indian scene was marked by a profound stirring of consciousness. It modified the basis of Hindu social structure throughout northern India.” ​

N.S. Mehta, in 'Islam and the Indian Civilization,' reproduced in 'Hindustan ke Ahd-i-Wusta ki ek Jhalak,' by S.A. Rahman.

“Islam had brought to India a luminous torch which rescued humanity from darkness at a time when old civilizations were on the decline and lofty moral ideals had got reduced to empty intellectual concepts. As in other lands, so in India too, the conquests of Islam were more widespread in the world of thought than in the world of politics. Today, also, the Islamic World is a spiritual brotherhood which is held together by community of faith in the Oneness of God and human equality. Unfortunately, the history of Islam in this country remained tied up for centuries with that of government with the result that a veil was cast over its true spirit, and its fruits and blessings were hidden from the popular eye.” ​

Prof. K.M. Panikkar in 'A Survey of Indian History,' 1947, p. 163.

“One thing is clear. Islam had a profound effect on Hinduism during this period. Medieval theism is in some ways a reply to the attack of Islam; and the doctrine of medieval teachers by whatever names their gods are known are essentially theistic. It is the one supreme God that is the object of the devotee's adoration and it is to His grace that we are asked to look for redemption.”
​

Zaheeruddin Babar in his Autobiography 'Tuzuk-i-Babari,' (Founder of Mughal Dynasty, Ruled India 1526-1530).

“There are neither good horses in India, nor good meat, nor grapes, nor melons, nor ice, nor cold water, nor baths, nor candle, nor candlestick, nor torch. In the place of the candle, they use the divat. It rests on three legs: a small iron piece resembling the snout of a lamp... Even in case of Rajas and Maharajas, the attendants stand holding the clumsy divat in their hands when they are in need of a light in the night. “There is no arrangement for running water in gardens and buildings. The buildings lack beauty, symmetry, ventilation and neatness. Commonly, the people walk barefooted with a narrow slip tied round the loins. Women wear a dress ...”
​

Dr. Gustav le Bon in 'Les Civilisations de L'Inde' (translated by S.A. Bilgrami).

"There does not exist a history of ancient India. Their books contain no historical data whatever, except for a few religious books in which historical information is buried under a heap of parables and folk-lore, and their buildings and other monuments also do nothing to fill the void for the oldest among them do not go beyond the third century B.C. To discover facts about India of the ancient times is as difficult a task as the discovery of the island of Atlantis, which, according to Plato, was destroyed due to the changes of the earth... The historical phase of India began with the Muslim invasion. Muslims were India's first historians." ​

Sir William Digby in 'Prosperous India: A Revelation,' p. 30.

"England's industrial supremacy owes its origin to the vast hoards of Bengal and the Karnatik being made available for her use....Before Plassey was fought and won, and before the stream of treasure began to flow to England, the industries of our country were at a very low ebb."
​

Brooks Adams in 'The Law of Civilization and Decay,' London, 1898, pp. 313-17.

"Very soon after Plassey the Bengal plunder began to arrive in London, and the effect appears to have been instantaneous, for all authorities agree that the Industrial Revolution, the event that has divided the l9th century from all antecedent time, began with the year 1760....Plassey was fought in 1757, and probably nothing has ever equaled the rapidity of the change which followed....In themselves inventions are passive, many of the most important having laid dormant for centuries, waiting for a sufficient store of force to have accumulated to have set them working. That store must always take the shape of money, and money not hoarded, but in motion. "...Before the influx of the Indian treasure, and the expansion of credit which followed, no force sufficient for this purpose existed....The factory system was the child of 'Industrial Revolution,' and until capital had accumulated in masses, capable of giving solidity to large bodies of labour, manufactures were carried on by scattered individuals....Possibly since the world began, no investment has ever yielded the profit reaped from the Indian plunder, because for nearly fifty years Great Britain stood without a competitor."
​

Muslims in India - An Overview

The Muslims entered Sind, India, in 711 C.E., the same year they entered Spain. Their entry in India was prompted by an attempt to free the civilian Muslim hostages whose ship was taken by sea pirates in the territory of Raja Dahir, King of Sind. After diplomatic attempts failed, Hajjaj bin Yusuf, the Umayyad governor in Baghdad, dispatched a 17-year-old commander by the name Muhammad bin Qasim with a small army. Muhammad bin Qasim defeated Raja Dahir at what is now Hyderabad in Pakistan. In pursuing the remnant of Dahir's army and his son’s supporters (Indian kings), Muhammad bin Qasim fought at Nirun, Rawar, Bahrore, Brahmanabad, Aror, Dipalpur and Multan. By 713 C.E., he established his control in Sind and parts of Punjab up to the borders of Kashmir. A major part of what is now Pakistan came under Muslim control in 713 C.E. and remained so throughout the centuries until some years after the fall of the Mughal Empire in 1857. Muhammad bin Qasim’s treatment of the Indian population was so just that when he was called back to Baghdad the civilians were greatly disheartened and gave him farewell in tears. There was a Muslim community in Malabar, southwest India as early as 618 C.E. as a result of King Chakrawati Farmas accepting Islam at the hands of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The Muslim presence as rulers in India dates from 711 C.E. Since then, different Muslim rulers (Turks of Central Asia, Afghans, and the descendants of the Mongol - the Mughals) entered India, primarily fought their fellow Muslim rulers, and established their rule under various dynastic names. By the eleventh century, the Muslims had established their capital at Delhi, which remained the principal seat of power until the last ruler of Mughal Dynasty, Bahadur Shah Zafar, was deposed in 1857 by the British. A few British visitors were given permission by Akbar to stay in Eastern India more than two centuries before. The British abused that privilege, and within a few decades the British began to collaborate with Rajas and Nawabs in military expeditions against the Mughals and Muslim rulers of the east, southeast and south India. After two centuries of fighting, the British succeeded in abolishing the Mughal rule in 1857.
Muslims were a minority when they ruled major parts of India for nearly a thousand years. They were well liked generally as rulers for their justice, social and cultural values, respect for freedom to practice religion as prescribed by the religion of various communities, freedom of speech, legal system in accordance with the dictates and established norms of each religious community, public works and for establishing educational institutions. In their days as rulers, the Muslims constituted about twenty percent of India's population. Today, Indian Muslims constitute about fifteen percent of India's population, about 150 million, and they are the second largest Muslim community in the world.
The region now part of Pakistan and many other parts of India were predominantly Muslim. After the British takeover in 1857, many of these areas remained under loose control of Muslims. When the British decided to withdraw from India without a clear direction for the future of Muslims (former rulers), a political solution was reached for some of the Muslim majority areas. This resulted in the division of India and the creation of Pakistan in 1947.
Among the famous Muslims scientists, historians and travelers who visited and lived, though briefly, in India were Al-Biruni, Al-Masu'di, and Ibn Battuta. Their writings illuminate us with the Indian society and culture. Al-Biruni stayed in India for twenty years. Ibn Battuta, an Andalusian who was born in Morocco, served as a Magistrate of Delhi (1334-1341) during the reign of Sultan Muhammad Tughluk. It is conceivable that Ibn Battuta’s description of Muslim India inspired Ferdinand and Isabella who had taken over the last Muslim kingdom of Granada, Spain in 1492. That same year Columbus received the permission in the Alhambra palace (of Granada) and made his famous voyage bound for India in search of gold and spice but he landed in the Americas.
​

http://www.load-islam.com/C/History/Islamic_civilization_in_India/

 

[ISDhillon]

Dear oh dear sonz:heated:


This is a problem i see alot on this forum, I think the saddest thing about cutting and pasting quotes which seem to on the surface support your argument, is that when you look at the quotes in detail they actually prove nothing look sonz and learn,

Dr. Gustav le Bon in 'Les Civilisations de L'Inde' (translated by S.A. Bilgrami).

“The historical phase of India began with the Muslim invasion. Muslims were India's first historians."

So muslims invaded and they committed a helluva a lot of atrocities its no propaganda even god In his mercy created a new religion and boy did we put you in your place don’t be jealous it’s a very unattractive quality.

Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (India's Prime Minsiter 1947-64) in ‘The Discovery of India,’ 1946, p. 218, 225.

“The impact of the invaders from the north-west and of Islam on India had been considerable

And one of my favourites:

A foreign conquest, with all its evils,”

See again the word invaders and evil I couldn’t care less about their contribution to India its of no use to me whatsoever, I never go to the taj mahal because to me it’s a whores grave that’s about all the moghuls did for India, and you think this supports your argument? Which side are you on it is clear you have not read your own quotes I do hope you will look at the references I provided earlier it seems they may have been deleted, but of course they were anti-islamic lol,

“Zaheeruddin Babar in his Autobiography 'Tuzuk-i-Babari,' (Founder of Mughal Dynasty, Ruled India 1526-1530).
“There are neither good horses in India, nor good meat, nor grapes, nor melons, nor ice, nor cold water, nor baths, nor candle, nor candlestick, nor torch. In the place of the candle, they use the divat. It rests on three legs: a small iron piece resembling the snout of a lamp... Even in case of Rajas and Maharajas, the attendants stand holding the clumsy divat in their hands when they are in need of a light in the night. “There is no arrangement for running water in gardens and buildings. The buildings lack beauty, symmetry, ventilation and neatness. Commonly, the people walk barefooted with a narrow slip tied round the loins. Women wear a dress ...””

wow you’ve got a nerve you posted the writings of the tyrant is this impartial?, what does guru granth sahib ji say about this beast:

ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
तिलंग महला १ ॥
tilang mehlaa 1.
Tilang, First Mehl:
ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
जैसी मै आवै खसम की बाणी तैसड़ा करी गिआनु वे लालो ॥
jaisee mai aavai khasam kee banee taisrhaa karee gi-aan vay laalo.
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.
ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜੰਞ ਲੈ ਕਾਬਲਹੁ ਧਾਇਆ ਜੋਰੀ ਮੰਗੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
पाप की जंञ लै काबलहु धाइआ जोरी मंगै दानु वे लालो ॥
paap kee janj lai kaablahu Dhaa-i-aa joree mangai daan vay laalo.
Bringing the marriage party of sin, Babar has invaded from Kaabul, demanding our land as his wedding gift, O Lalo.
ਸਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਇ ਛਪਿ ਖਲੋਏ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
सरमु धरमु दुइ छपि खलोए कूड़ु फिरै परधानु वे लालो ॥
saram Dharam du-ay chhap khalo-ay koorh firai parDhaan vay laalo.
Modesty and righteousness both have vanished, and falsehood struts around like a leader, O Lalo.
ਕਾਜੀਆ ਬਾਮਣਾ ਕੀ ਗਲ ਥਕੀ ਅਗਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
काजीआ बामणा की गल थकी अगदु पड़ै सैतानु वे लालो ॥
kaajee-aa baamnaa kee gal thakee agad parhai saitaan vay laalo.
The Qazis and the Brahmins have lost their roles, and Satan now conducts the marriage rites, O Lalo.
ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੀਆ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕਸਟ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
मुसलमानीआ पड़हि कतेबा कसट महि करहि खुदाइ वे लालो ॥
musalmaanee-aa parheh kataybaa kasat meh karahi khudaa-ay vay laalo.
The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਹਿਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਭੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
जाति सनाती होरि हिदवाणीआ एहि भी लेखै लाइ वे लालो ॥
jaat sanaatee hor hidvaanee-aa ayhi bhee laykhai laa-ay vay laalo.
The Hindu women of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put into the same category, O Lalo.


ਖੂਨ ਕੇ ਸੋਹਿਲੇ ਗਾਵੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਤੁ ਕਾ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਪਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥੧॥
खून के सोहिले गावीअहि नानक रतु का कुंगू पाइ वे लालो ॥१॥
khoon kay sohilay gavee-ah naanak rat kaa kungoo paa-ay vay laalo. ||1||
The wedding songs of murder are sung, O Nanak, and blood is sprinkled instead of saffron, O Lalo. ||1||
ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਮਾਸ ਪੁਰੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਖੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ ॥
साहिब के गुण नानकु गावै मास पुरी विचि आखु मसोला ॥
saahib kay gun naanak gaavai maas puree vich aakh masolaa.
Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord and Master in the city of corpses, and voices this account.
ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਵਾਈ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਵਖਿ ਇਕੇਲਾ ॥
जिनि उपाई रंगि रवाई बैठा वेखै वखि इकेला ॥
jin upaa-ee rang ravaa-ee baithaa vaykhai vakh ikaylaa.
The One who created, and attached the mortals to pleasures, sits alone, and watches this.
ਸਚਾ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਸਚੜਾ ਨਿਆਉ ਕਰੇਗੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ ॥
सचा सो साहिबु सचु तपावसु सचड़ा निआउ करेगु मसोला ॥
sachaa so saahib sach tapaavas sachrhaa ni-aa-o karayg masolaa.
The Lord and Master is True, and True is His justice. He issues His Commands according to His judgement.
ਕਾਇਆ ਕਪੜੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਹਿਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਸਮਾਲਸੀ ਬੋਲਾ ॥
काइआ कपड़ु टुकु टुकु होसी हिदुसतानु समालसी बोला ॥
kaa-i-aa kaparh tuk tuk hosee hindusataan samaalsee bolaa.
The body-fabric will be torn apart into shreds, and then India will remember these words.
ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
आवनि अठतरै जानि सतानवै होरु भी उठसी मरद का चेला ॥
aavan ath-tarai jaan sataanvai hor bhee uthsee marad kaa chaylaa.
Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.
ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥
सच की बाणी नानकु आखै सचु सुणाइसी सच की बेला ॥२॥३॥५॥
sach kee banee naanak aakhai sach sunaa-isee sach kee baylaa. ||2||3||5||
Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5||



And what was the greatest kingdom on earth, even greater than America for its freedom and non-violence, a state which never used the death penalty, a state where all were rich and prosperous, a state where people were awarded with kingdoms and buckets full of diamonds and pearls, a kingdom where muslim and hindus enjoyed the top ranking positions in political affairs that’s right it was the sikh kingdom, which even ruled over Kabul and kandhar, a kingdom which had equality of sexes and religious tolerance for all, lets see whose is best:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010408/spectrum/index.htm

http://www.asht.info/Sikh+Kingdoms

theres plenty more articles, their will never be a kingdom again like maharaja ranjit singhs this has been acknowledged just recently by the british parliament when I find the article I will post it here, mughal rule did add rich culture but it did a lot worse than good, but god as always was merciful.

In future try actually reading the title of this thread which was about islam being spread by the sword, your quotes do not refute that they actually call them invaders, conquests and evil.

ISDhillon:thankyou:

 

[Noora_z3]

Dear oh dear sonz:heated:

See again the word invaders and evil I couldn’t care less about their contribution to India

Then how can u make a sound judgment?

its of no use to me whatsoever, I never go to the taj mahal because to me it’s a whores grave that’s about all the moghuls did for India.

U missed a lot.

And what was the greatest kingdom on earth, even greater than America for its freedom and non-violence,

U comparing it to American for cryin out loud...wrong choice.


a state which never used the death penalty, [Edit] lets see whose is best:

ISDhillon:thankyou:[/QUOTE]

There is no deny that the sikh empire did a good job, but let me just get this clear, r u comparing the sikh empire which lasted for like only 50 yrs n which was in control of Punjab, to a an empire that ruled the whole sub-continent includnig Afghanistan and Persia for more than 160 yrs?

 

[ISDhillon]

Then how can u make a sound judgment?

because the title of this thread is about whether islam was spread by the sword or not, the contribution is another subject, anyone who invades does it by force i cant imagine they invaded with fluffy cushions.

U missed a lot.

okay fair enuff i know they widened roads and loads of other stuff, still dont know how this softens the invasion.

U comparing it to American for cryin out loud...wrong choice.

i have to say i have no problem with america, my only greif with america is its stance on capital punishment, i understand feelings are heightened against america cos of iraq war but personally i was never gainst it, it does not matter for me wether or not their was any wmd's i dont think these countries know how to live in peace, only in fear.

r u comparing the sikh empire which lasted for like only 50 yrs n which was in control of Punjab, to a an empire that ruled the whole sub-continent includnig Afghanistan and Persia for more than 160 yrs?

quality not quantity, and you know it does not matter what my parents did for me when i was growing up i still only remember the bad stuff they did to me, same with rulers i will always remember the bad stuff the mughals did and you will always remember the bad stuff america did

peace

ISDhillon

 

[Noora_z3]

because the title of this thread is about whether islam was spread by the sword or not, the contribution is another subject, anyone who invades does it by force i cant imagine they invaded with fluffy cushions.

Well, lets use urchoice of word, lets say muslims did invade India....the question is did they force conversion?, did they go arond n threatned non muslims? No that didnt happen.

okay fair enuff i know they widened roads and loads of other stuff, still dont know how this softens the invasion.

Sikhisim flourished during Akbar's ruling...u dont deny that, do u?


i

have to say i have no problem with america, my only greif with america is its stance on capital punishment, i understand feelings are heightened against america cos of iraq war but personally i was never gainst it, it does not matter for me wether or not their was any wmd's i dont think these countries know how to live in peace, only in fear.

This says lots bout u, an eye opener.

quality not quantity, and you know it does not matter what my parents did for me when i was growing up i still only remember the bad stuff they did to me, same with rulers i will always remember the bad stuff the mughals did and you will always remember the bad stuff america did

Well its not bout me or u remembering...its bout wat it is in HISTORY...true history..not political history.

By the way, who said I only remember the bad stuff america did...I do belive they contributed a lot to the world..but thats another thing, its just i dont consider them the perfect model for comparison.

 

[ISDhillon]

Hey Nooran,

“the question is did they force conversion?, did they go arond n threatned non muslims? No that didnt happen.”

Yes they did so much so that the death penalty for apostazing muslims who were forcefully converted was revoked because the people never accepted islam, have a look:,

http://www.san.beck.org/2-9-MughalEmpire1526-1707.html
“The prohibition against repairing or building new temples was revoked as was the death penalty for apostatizing Muslims, who had been forcibly converted.”

It happens today aswell:
http://web.mid-day.com/news/world/2005/november/123248.htm

How are you gonna disagree with the martyrdom of my 9th guru who sacrificed his life to prevent the forceful conversion of all the Hindus in Kashmir:

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Martyrdom_of_Guru_Tegh_Bahadar

in fact we have plenty of evidence in scripture aswell as janamsakhis that forced conversions did go on,:

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=131&english=t&id=5487

ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਵਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭਏ ॥੧੨॥
हरीक्रिसन तिन के सुत वए ॥ तिन ते तेग बहादर भए ॥१२॥
Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.12.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
तिलक जंवू राखा प्रभ ता का ॥ कीनो बडो कलू महि साका ॥
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread (of the Hindus) which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
साधन हेति इती जिनि करी ॥ सीसु दीआ पर सी न उचरी ॥१३॥
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥
धरम हेति साका जिनि कीआ ॥ सीसु दीआ पर सिररु न दीआ ॥
For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.

ਨਾਟਕ ਚੇਟਕ ਕੀਏ ਕੁਕਾਜਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਲੋਗਨ ਕਹ ਆਵਤ ਲਾਜਾ ॥੧੪॥
नाटक चेटक कीए कुकाजा ॥ प्रभ लोगन कह आवत लाजा ॥१४॥
The saints of the Lord abhor the performance of miracles and malpractices. 14.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਠੀਕਰਿ ਫੋਰਿ ਦਿਲੀਸਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਯਾ ਪਯਾਨ ॥
ठीकरि फोरि दिलीसि सिरि प्रभ कीया पयान ॥
Breaking the potsherd of his body head of the king of Delhi (Aurangzeb), He left for the abode of the Lord.

ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਸੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਆਨ ॥੧੫॥
तेग बहादर सी क्रिआ करी न किनहूं आन ॥१५॥
None could perform such a feat as that of Tegh Bahadur.15.

ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਕੇ ਚਲਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸੋਕ ॥
तेग बहादर के चलत भयो जगत को सोक ॥
The whole world bemoaned the departure of Tegh Bahadur.

ਹੈ ਹੈ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਭਯੋ ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜੈ ਸੁਰ ਲੋਕ ॥੧੬॥
है है है सभ जग भयो जै जै जै सुर लोक ॥१६॥
Whit the world Iamented, the gods hailed his arrival in heavens.16.




only a Muslim would deny that this did not happen, that’s ok cos we continue to document and provide symposiums on the world platform and so far I believe the world accepts our historical narration if they don’t then please show where.

“Sikhisim flourished during Akbar's ruling...u dont deny that, do u?”

yes however this was a very different type of ruler he was hardly a muslim by the current definition and anyways still don’t know how this softens the invasion.

“This says lots bout u, an eye opener.”

I wont be losing any sleep.

“Well its not bout me or u remembering...its bout wat it is in HISTORY...true history..not political history. “

the fact that Sikhism is a living testimony to the fact that islam was spread by the sword is more than enough history for any genuine seeker of the truth.

“By the way, who said I only remember the bad stuff america did...I do belive they contributed a lot to the world..but thats another thing, its just i dont consider them the perfect model for comparison.”

Why don’t you consider them perfect?

Don’t take offence but a religion holds the right to define its history and we will never accept such a view it would be like renouncing our religion, and funnily enough it is sikhism itself which shatters all the false illusuions of glorious mughal legacy that islamic scholars keep portraying . We do that without even trying gurbani speaks for itself its absolute truth.

ISDhillon:thankyou:

 

[HeiGou]

Well, lets use urchoice of word, lets say muslims did invade India....the question is did they force conversion?, did they go arond n threatned non muslims? No that didnt happen.

Well actually it did. Read the Chachnama. Read any of the debates about Hinduism and whether it could be tolerated or not.

Sikhisim flourished during Akbar's ruling...u dont deny that, do u?

Akhbar being a bad Muslim widely condemned by the Ulama. Aurangzeb was more to their liking - how did he treat the Sikhs?