Was the Prophet Illiterate or Literate?

- Qatada - said:
That's kool.
Although I've realized now, it's a bit vague..

So yeah, we learn from this that Muhammad (peace be upon him) couldn't have made all these Prophecies up. Since there too clear and real to have been guessed.
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They aren't that clear and real, I think he could have made them up.

:D
 
Whatsthepoint said:
Yeah, however it depends on the indivual how they will percieve them.
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The Challenge Of The Qur'an

The primary source of the missionaries' argument is here. We have also retained their pattern so as to facilitate the identification of rebuttals.

What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Poetry & Prose?

What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?
I'jaz al-Qur'an (Or Inimitability Of The Qur'an) & Its Exposition
Is The Bible Inimitable?

The Famous Arabs Who took The Challenge Of The Qur'an Only To Fail

Ibn al-Mukaffa'

Musaylimah

Abu'l-cAla al-Marri

Yahya b. al-Hakam al-Ghazal

Sayyid cAli Muhammad (Also known as Bab)

Ibn al-Rawandi

Bassar bin Burd, Sahib Ibn 'Abbad & Abu'l- 'Atahiya

Did The Following Meet The Challenge?

Quss bin Sa'idah's 'Verses'

Surah al-Nurain

Surah al-Wilayah

Musaylimah & His Surahs

What Do People Say About The Qur'an & Its Grammarians?

Orientalists View About The Arab Grammarians

How Did The Qur'an Influence The Interpretation Of The Jewish Bible?

Refutation Of Grammatical Errors In The Qur'an

Grammatical Shift For The Rhetorical Purposes: Iltifat And Related Features In The Qur'an (Should be read in conjunction with the above article)

Sudden Change In Person & Number: Neal Robinson On Iltifaat

Miscellaneous

cAli bin Rabban at-Tabari's (A Christian Convert To Islam) View On The Qur'anic Style

"Those Are The High Flying Claims" (Refutation of the Christian missionary writings on the so-called "Satanic verses")
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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/



thank you br. Qatada
:w:
 
Muhammad might have used a poetic stlye, spoke in rhymes etc in the Quran and used normal language in real life (hadiths).
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It's amazing that you know more than the contemporaries of Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

All of them knew well that he never even had the ability to make up poetry, nor did he ever make up any in his life - in public or private.



So how is it possible that he could have 'poetry' which not even the most advanced poets in arabia could compete with?



Let's read what one the most advanced poet of arabia said about the Qur'an;


2 - Ibn 'Abbas narrated:

"al-Walid bin al-Mughirah (a polytheist) came to the Messenger of Allah. The Messenger of Allah recited the Qur'an to him, and al-Walid seemed to become affected and softened by it. Abu Jahl came to know of this, so, he came to al-Walid and said: "Don't you see that your people are collecting charity for you?"

He said: "And why is that?"

Abu Jahl replied: "So that they can give it to you, as they see that you went to Muhammad to get some of his food."

al-Walid said: "Quraysh knows that I am of the wealthiest of its sons."

Abu Jahl said: "So, say to Muhammad something that would convince your people that you oppose him."

al-Walid replied: "And what can I possibly say? There is not a single man who is more knowledgable of poetry or prose than I, or even that of the Jinn, and by Allah, what he says bears no resemblance to these things. By Allah, what he says has a sweetness to it, and a charm upon it; the highest part of it is fruitful and the lowest part of it is gushing forth with bounty; it dominates and cannot be dominated, and it crushes all that is under it.""
[Reported by al-Hakim in 'al-Mustadrak' (2/506-507) and at-Tabari in 'Jami' al-Bayan' (29/156), and it is authentic]

http://www.kalamullah.com/al-quran.html


​

What is your explanation to that?
 
Whatsthepoint said:
They aren't that clear and real, I think he could have made them up.

:D
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This post proves that you're not truthful at all, to yourself or others. And indeed those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers' - then know that Allah is not unaware of what you do, and He will inform you of what you did - and no-one will be dealt with unjustly on that Day.
 
- Qatada - said:
This post proves that you're not truthful at all, to yourself or others. And indeed those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers' - then know that Allah is not unaware of what you do, and He will inform you of what you did - and no-one will be dealt with unjustly on that Day.
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How does it show that I'm not truthful?
If you can't acknowledge that the Quran does not impress all people equally, you need to clear things up.
 
chacha_jalebi said:
erm now now whatssy

which ones aint clear . . .
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Ignore him, he just wants a simple way to escape the discussion. I've explained to him the ahadith - which are self explanatory - but if he chooses to deny the signs of Allah, then that is upto him. He just needs to see what happened to those before him, and those who disbelieve or believe will also die. Then those who believed and did good works will be rewarded by Allah, but those who rejected the signs of Allah and chose disbelief over belief - they will have no helper, and be punished for their own sins.
 
- Qatada - said:
Ignore him, he just wants a simple way to escape the discussion. I've explained to him the ahadith - which are self explanatory - but if he chooses to deny the signs of Allah, then that is upto him. He just needs to see what happened to those before him, and those who disbelieve or believe will also die. Then those who believed and did good works will be rewarded by Allah, but those who rejected the signs of Allah and chose disbelief over belief - they will have no helper, and be punished for their own sins.
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Now, now, let's not be arrogant!

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.
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Hoe do you explain the oppression of muslims that happened before the fall of the caliphate, during the hereditary leaderships etc?
 
- Qatada - said:
It's not arrogance, rather - the one who is arrogant is the one who rejects the truth when it becomes clear to him.
Have you ever thought that "the truth" may not become clear to everyone?

This is explained in many other ahadith, which again - are Prophecies:
http://www.islamicboard.com/908026-post15.html
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The hadith says there will be biting oppression after the hereditary leadership. There was oppresion during the hereditary leadership.
 
I believe that we should not refer to our beloved Prophet (pbuh) as illiterate as that is most disrespectful, the correct term is that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlearned.
Allah knows best
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illiterate 1: having little or no education; especially : unable to read or write
unlearned 1: possessing inadequate learning or education; especially : deficient in scholarly attainments

It seems to me that these two terms are interchangeable. I see no disrespect in saying that Muhammad (saaws) was illiterate any more than saying that he was an orphan.

I accept what the Quran says, as illustrated by others above, is the Truth.
 
Whatsthepoint, refer to what i linked you to:

http://www.islamicboard.com/908026-post15.html


The hadith mentioned is:

Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 180:​
Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard the truthful and trusted by Allah (i.e., the Prophet) saying, "The destruction of my followers will be through the hands of young men from Quraish."​


Combining the lessons from both ahadith shows to us that there will be oppression during the time of hereditary leadership, i've explained this in the link i just gave above.

The oppression may be emphasised on further in the stages of Leadership, maybe due to the extent of the oppression the muslims will go through - hence the oppression during certain periods may be at a greater level compared to another time. Therefore it is emphasised on in one hadith, and then another time period is explained in another.



As i've stated before, in Islam we don't do selective reading, we take the whole package.
 
Combining the lessons from both ahadith shows to us that there will be oppression during the time of hereditary leadership, i've explained this in the link i just gave above.

The oppression may be emphasised on further in the stages of Leadership, maybe due to the extent of the oppression the muslims will go through - hence the oppression during certain periods may be at a greater level compared to another time. Therefore it is emphasised on in one hadith, and then another time period is explained in another.
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It was you who emphasized the correct order and all. I merely pointed out that the order was not correct and it was only then you provided the other hadith. ow am I supposed to be guilty of not taking the whole package.

- Qatada - said:
As i've stated before, in Islam we don't do selective reading, we take the whole package.
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So do Chistians, and guess what, they too claim their book is infallible.
That's why it's difficult and useless to debate with religious people. Centuries of theology, lead by devotion like no other, have come up with an explanation for virtually every mistake/contradiction.
 
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Greetings,

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.
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This is utterly vague, as are most "prophecies". It's about as impressive as saying "something will happen; or, it may not".

How can anyone take this sort of thing seriously?

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,



This is utterly vague, as are most "prophecies". It's about as impressive as saying "something will happen; or, it may not".

How can anyone take this sort of thing seriously?

Peace
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prophecies like these are mainly for the believers gibson.

You see when we see the prophecies we remember the sayings and see it exactly as said.

i understand that the skeptics will not rely on what is vague or ambiguous.


But if you research on his past, his childhood, his life, you'll see he really was illiterate. He was never taught how to read or write with a pen. It is testified by many non-muslims and muslim historians alike.


But most of the prophecies ive heard of (which are over 50) its like i forget them, and then i actually see them and im like "subhanAllaah thats what our prophet spoke of"


well, i hope you at least realise why we take these as miraculous. And i understand why you would not :) you need to at least see him as a prophet first, then you wont make excuses and you can see it more clearly...
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,



This is utterly vague, as are most "prophecies". It's about as impressive as saying "something will happen; or, it may not".

How can anyone take this sort of thing seriously?

Peace
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As it stands it is specific enough for people to realise that ''hey this is what the prophecy was refering to''. It is not too vague to be an insignificant pre-judgement (such as a group of people will get hurt) and neither is it specific enough for it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy (such as there will be a righteous[sp] male who will lead a successful nation). Such is the nature of Islam - the middle path of truth.

:)
 
Greetings,
IbnAbdulHakim said:
well, i hope you at least realise why we take these as miraculous. And i understand why you would not :) you need to at least see him as a prophet first, then you wont make excuses and you can see it more clearly...
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I think that's absolutely the key point. This sort of thing is only believable if you already believe.

What I don't understand is how someone gets to that stage, given that so many of these prophecies are wide open to sceptical criticisms.

We all believe what seems credible to us, I suppose.

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,

What I don't understand is how someone gets to that stage, given that so many of these prophecies are wide open to sceptical criticisms.

Peace
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ive had many deep discussions with all sorts of people from all sorts of faith. I've come across this question many times also.

To be honest the main reason is everyone is braught up different, we're all given different experiences, what you are use to i may dislike, what you are desensitised to i may detest, what i may find beautiful you may find repulsive. But i think the choices throughout life build up to these perceptions. So what im saying is i truelly believe Allaah guides whom he wills, and gives understanding to whom he wills.

So we've both looked at it from different angles, and we've both drawn conclusions.


Faith is indeed a key, but that also comes with much experience and understanding (i wont say research, research isnt the same as experience).


hope i didnt offend in anyway,
 

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