Whale Evolution & "Macro Evolution"

burdenofbeing said:
I wonder what is the counter argument to evolution is.
Everything magically appeared?
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Well Plantinga has an evolutionary argument against naturalism.

Outside of that there are legit questions to be raised about the acientific status of Darwinism (Popper insisted it was a metaphysical program, not a scientific hypothesis for a long time) or bring up Kuhn. Science is simply problem solving activity within and (often arbitrairly) selected paradigm.
 
Ali_Cena said:
You could say he is dishonest, but i wouldnt say his book is pathetic i mean its colourfull, and all of it is not true,


:sl:, I dont think we have met before, let me start by saying welcome to the forum, and i am sure you will like it here.

Yes we do, you can have a look at the sticky on Islamic inventions, on the health and science section, to see the vast amounts of contribution.



Well, i didnt quote anything from anyone, it was actually Trax that did that.



True what you are saying, i mean there are brothers who probabily only this forum knows like Brother Abdul Fattah, and many more who are capable, but i think Harun Yahya is put down with the fact that he totally dismisses evolution; it should be noted that Islam doesn't argue for total dismisall of evolution.

Peace brother.
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:sl:

Thank you for the welcome Ali! Apologies I alluded that you quote from Harun Yahya. I have only just joined the forum. Unfortunately I have lots and lots of questions, and was over zealous with joining in discussions based on my original questions. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have caused offence.

It is natural that one will defend very strongly when our dearest thoughts, hopes, values etc are questioned. Likewise, if we can counter the argument with strong quotes, it is human nature to "fight back" with equally strong counter points. It is unfortunate that this takes us away from what we hope to achieve!

I still have not totally understood what the Islamic view point is on evolution. Reading the works of Harun Yahya would give very mixed messages. In attempting to prove that humans were created by Allah, he gives the impression that the theory of evolution is totally false. He then offers Intelligent Design as a credible, and scientifically provable hypothesis. He also dismisses natural selection using assumptions that are inaccurate. I just think that if Islamic contribution to science is to be taken seriously, we have to refrain from quoting from sources that contain so many errors and inaccuracies.

:w:

p.s. in your response to Tornado :

"Well The concept of intelligent design originated in response to the 1987 in the US, and it is know that evolution, by natural selection was first thought out by Charles Darwin, although there is a Muslim scientists; who I forgot the name, that first proposed that animals evolve. "

Whilst ID did make a renaissance in 1987, the origins of this thought are much older! One could argue that Plato also propogated a similar theory :X
 
Ali_Cena said:
Greetings Tornado,



You can assure yourself of whatever you like, but an expert can easily corroborate, and verify what Harun has alleged in his article.
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Yahya? I know this much, there's nothing from him that actually discredits the theory of evolution.

Agreed, science does hold explanations as to how, but not why. Evolution is the best explanation of course, but that assumes there is only science and nothing else, which leaves religion out of the picture, and well like me I want religion into it as well; which does not mean I have to go against science, as science can explain how God willed certain things to be.
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Science stops no one from saying that there is an intelligent designer. You can propose it if you want. The problem is that it is very weak compared to evolution. I think creationists outnumber evolutionists so you'd think there'd be a pretty good rebuttal to evolution.

Well The concept of intelligent design originated in response to the 1987 in the US
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ID is just creationism. It's nothing new.

, and it is know that evolution, by natural selection was first thought out by Charles Darwin, although there is a Muslim scientists; who I forgot the name, that first proposed that animals evolve.
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Hmm, if (i think) you go against evolution, why would you revere a muslim who brought up that animals evolve?
Further, I'm sure there were many before Darwin who may have conceived that animals evolved. In fact, a guy named Alfred Wallace had the same idea independant of Darwin at about the same time.
Simply Darwin was far more comprehensive with a lot of material gathered over a long time before publishing his idea.

Are you trying to say if someone said “right evolution is wrong”, you would just let him make your decision for you? Because that’s what you implied on your post.
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If a guy like Stephen Hawking and others said that gravity was wrong and that it was something else that was causing a certain phenomenon, then of course I'd "let him" make the decision for me because he's the expert and I'm the layman.

Same with evolution, if the experts said it was wrong, then I'd have to accept them. You can become an expert as well, then you could present your ideas to them and that would help science progress by holding discussions.
 
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With Islamic Greetings, :sl:

absuk said:
:Thank you for the welcome Ali! Apologies I alluded that you quote from Harun Yahya. I have only just joined the forum. Unfortunately I have lots and lots of questions, and was over zealous with joining in discussions based on my original questions. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have caused offence.
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No offence taken from what you have said, it’s good to have questions, as answering those leads to more faith, or lack of faith in the case of atheism.

absuk said:
:It is natural that one will defend very strongly when our dearest thoughts, hopes, values etc are questioned. Likewise, if we can counter the argument with strong quotes, it is human nature to "fight back" with equally strong counter points. It is unfortunate that this takes us away from what we hope to achieve!
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Yes, if you are always to “fight back” and not listen, and absorb the arguments stated from the other party, then you don't have an open mind, ergo you won’t get far; in terms finding truth.

absuk said:
:I still have not totally understood what the Islamic view point is on evolution.
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I would direct you here: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/6570-biological-evolution-islamic-perspective.html, also another great website; by one of the posters in that thread: http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm.

absuk said:
Reading the works of Harun Yahya would give very mixed messages. In attempting to prove that humans were created by Allah, he gives the impression that the theory of evolution is totally false.
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Which is wrong, most of the theory of evolution is ultimately correct.

absuk said:
I just think that if Islamic contribution to science is to be taken seriously, we have to refrain from quoting from sources that contain so many errors and inaccuracies.
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So do I. I mean we are talking about evolution in this thread, I think the brothers who post sources should at least know what the Islamic viewpoint on evolution is, evolution is no were denied in Islam, if you knew that it would make you think twice on postings stuff from Yahya.

absuk said:
:Whilst ID did make a renaissance in 1987, the origins of this thought are much older! One could argue that Plato also propogated a similar theory :X
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Isn’t ID a response to evolution? Making evolution come first?

Hope to see your reply.

:w:
 
Greetings Tornado,

Tornado said:
Yahya? I know this much, there's nothing from him that actually discredits the theory of evolution.
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How can you know that when you haven’t read every single one of his arguments, articles, and analysed any of his videos, read his books, furthermore you did mention you are not an expert of evolution so how can you know that it discredits the theory?

Tornado said:
Science stops no one from saying that there is an intelligent designer. You can propose it if you want. The problem is that it is very weak compared to evolution. I think creationists outnumber evolutionists so you'd think there'd be a pretty good rebuttal to evolution.
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Again it’s not about the number of people, or the amount of awards they have one, if ID has not got quality and facts it will always be rebuttable. I always think God is out of science; as if God was within science God would be restricted by laws such as time, and etc, so it shouldn’t really make sense; ID.

Tornado said:
ID is just creationism. It's nothing new.
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The way you said it is just like me saying, “evolution is just atheism”,

Tornado said:
Hmm, if (i think) you go against evolution, why would you revere a muslim who brought up that animals evolve?
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I admire that Muslim as he has not said anything that goes against Islam, like I mentioned before Islam doesn’t not totally deny evolution. Also I believe in some parts of evolution not all.

Tornado said:
Further, I'm sure there were many before Darwin who may have conceived that animals evolved. In fact, a guy named Alfred Wallace had the same idea independant of Darwin at about the same time.
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Alfred Wallace was born in 1823, and there are more before him like Al-Jahiz who was born in December 868 almost 1000 years before Wallace, true though Darwin did have more material and managed to portray his idea better.

Tornado said:
Simply Darwin was far more comprehensive with a
lot of material gathered over a long time before publishing his idea.
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Agreed.


Tornado said:
Same with evolution, if the experts said it was wrong, then I'd have to accept them. You can become an expert as well, then you could present your ideas to them and that would help science progress by holding discussions.
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Yes but you are assuming that he is right at the current time, look say you lived 100 years ago and say the experts at that time said “nope gravity is false, and wrong” you assume that the experts knows all, and can tell the future, so you disagree, 100 years forward you dead (God forbid) but new ideas are brought forward that state gravity is 100%. You just followed assumingly an expert, which was wrong.

Now religion like Islam on the other hand done change, the Quran is still the same as it was 1400 years ago By Gods Grace.

Peace tornado hoping to see your reply.
 
absuk said:
:sl:

Thank you for the link. I found some of the posts very interesting. Was there anything in particular that you were directing me to read?
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Indeed.. I wanted you to see some of molecular biology that would go into something like 'speciation' I don't really want to use the term evolution because it is misleading people between natural adaptation and speciating from an alleged common ancestry!
Also wanted to put a full scientific flaw into 'Natural selection' By showing many genetic disorders like trinucleotide repeat expansions, where the bad genes aren't only not weeded out but as the title suggests, expand with each generation so that each successive one fares out worst than the one before!


and Allah swt knows best

:w:
 

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