What atheism is for?

[Justufy]

Well, what if you're wrong? If there's no god, then some portion of your life has been wasted. That may or may not be a big deal. But what if there is a god, and you've picked the wrong one?

You could end up in a situation. Just as you (perhaps) think I will.

Besides, there have been many, many atheists who have gone to their deaths without feeling to the need for a sudden conversion. It hasn't stopped religious people from creating myths about them, though

classical, I see you have some talent in the fallacious strawman arguments.
with your ad populum, calling to the majority is quite fallacious.
and I see the if there is no god trown there. is that your gut feeling? should we start a new religion based upon your gut feeling?

But what if there is a god, and you've picked the wrong one?

when you put your trust in god there can be no wrog awnsers. we are all madly in love with the same god no matter what the religion.

 

[Justufy]

Wherever we look trough the human world it becomes apparent that we as humans are living by a set of moral standards that allows us to live in a harmonious society among each others,

you cannot deny that moral standards exist they are factual, if none of these moral standards existed everything would be permitted so to speak of. Now let’s take a look at the nature of facts, Il start with this short phrase, It is a fact that john has a blue sweater, it is a fact that Robert has eaten spaghetti for lunch, for most facts there are physical tangible objects that make these facts true, Now let us look at Moral facts and what they implied, Moral facts are the following I have listed that permit us to live in a harmonious society,

for instance if we say it is a fact that we should end the death penalty, or if we say that it is a fact that we should feed the helpless and give to the poor, now it is apparent that nothing in the physical world can prove a moral fact, nothing physical here in this world can do so. This is because these facts do not describe anything tangible they are prescriptive.

They assume the forms of commands, things we ought to do. Now no one would argue that commands necessarily imply a commander. Just like I said in one of my previous posts, cause needs something that caused this, and something that exists cannot exist without something pre-existent, such is the case of commands, you need a commander for commands to exist, just like in the army, you need a general to lead his men, or else the men would be completely lost. Now this brings me to something interesting, now that it has been dealt with that moral facts are in fact commands, who gave these commands? We make moral decisions very frequently in our lives, even a non believer is confronted to these decisions’, and Morality is undeniable. A moral code is universal, everywhere in the world, people know that it is wrong to kill, everywhere in the world it is wrong to Robb your neighbour, morality has a universal form, and It has full powers over our lives it has a somewhat lawful power.

So now that it has been found that morality has absolute power on all humans regardless if you decide to be a moral man or not since it transcends all of us and is the ultimate power in the world. This proves to us that there is also a being that is above us and rules the world, it proves the existence of the inventor of morality so to speak of, a being that has instigated laws both physical and moral laws

 

[Ramadhan]

Well, what if you're wrong? If there's no god, then some portion of your life has been wasted. That may or may not be a big deal. But what if there is a god, and you've picked the wrong one?

You could end up in a :raging: situation. Just as you (perhaps) think I will.

Well, only abrahamaic religions have the concept of heaven and hell.
So, if we find out that there is actually God after we die, those who follow abrahamaic religions will have narrowed dramatically their odd of not getting in a hell.

If there is God, the biggest loser will be those who reject that God exists.
If there is no God, why do say people of religion have wasted portion of their life?
Are atheists truly more happy than people of religion? because that is what people are after in this world right?

 

[tetsujin]

Greetings Justufy,

My questions is , and I’m curious:
because when you see it atheism is a choice to disconnect with God, what has that choice brought you atheists?

I didn't choose atheism for any financial or social gain.

what has it given you except the freedom to stop caring about your actions

It hasn't given me, or anyone I know, the freedom to stop caring about our actions. Are you implying you only care about your actions because you believe in god?

Or is it simply out of frustration of being blind to gods light. A prayer that has stayed unanswered...? A loved one that has departed in eternity? And of whose signs we can no longer perceive but in our hearts.

You shouldn't believe in an idea just because you find it comforting. It should be true.

Because when you look at it, a theist thinker and atheist thinker are quite the same and identical if not for a lack in the atheist, the lack of faith,

Pretty big difference when that faith leads to a particular way of life.

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly. and getting down the road, as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.so, im asking.
just curiosity.

I find it hard to swallow simultaneously compulsory fear and love.

And with a gentle mind of pure heart.

Most best regards and considerations.

All the best,


Faysal

 

[tetsujin]

This is not only about what atheism is morally, atheism is either a lack of insight, or a lack of wanting to see, there is 2 types of atheists, the one who cannot see, and the one who does not want to see.

People who disagree with you are not always ignorant or stubborn.

sure you can lead a full life as an ateist, but you do not bring nothing morally, you just surf on the moral codes of your society.

That's not true. There are many atheists who will challenge the moral codes of their society.

now how do you distinguish wright from wrong, you will not kill you will not steal because you know it is wrong, now why is that?

What you are saying is that you have no good reason to prevent violent crimes other than the instructions you believe were given by god. Do you think any society would have made it far by raping and killing people at will? Do you need god to tell you that you shouldn't kill others? Do you believe that the golden rule as something brought to the world by the Abrahamic faiths?

the awnser is that gods insuflated a moral code in every humans even in those who deny him.
and those morals are from god.

You're assuming something that can't be test to be true or false.

thus atheism seems stupidity.
when god can be proven with faith but also with reason.

You haven't reasoned so far, maybe you could start. This is a blank slate, what's the proof for god's existence?


All the best,


Faysal

 

[tetsujin]

Well, only abrahamaic religions have the concept of heaven and hell.
So, if we find out that there is actually God after we die, those who follow abrahamaic religions will have narrowed dramatically their odd of not getting in a hell.

I don't know how you can say that. There have been literally thousands of concepts of god(s). The ancient Egyptians Book of the dead describes in no small detail what must be accomplished for the safe passage of a soul to the hereafter. There were many different concepts of the afterlife prior to the old testament.

Frankly it doesn't even matter if its not the particular lake of fire someone believes in, we all know of religions with alternate afterlife scenarios that are no more favourable.

If there is God, the biggest loser will be those who reject that God exists.
If there is no God, why do say people of religion have wasted portion of their life?
Are atheists truly more happy than people of religion? because that is what people are after in this world right?

That can't possibly be someone's basis for faith. If you have any integrity you couldn't possibly believe that uttering a few words daily would fool your creator. You either believe it or you don't. I'd rather be honest. If there is a punishment for honesty then so be it.

You also shouldn't believe something simply because it makes you happy. The truth matters. We really do want to know how much money we have in the bank, whether we have a cold or pneumonia, whether our spouse is faithful, and certainly whether we are right on the biggest question since man spoke. Those who trivialize it with pascal's wager betray their sincerity to themselves.


All the best,


Faysal

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't know how you can say that. There have been literally thousands of concepts of god(s). The ancient Egyptians Book of the dead describes in no small detail what must be accomplished for the safe passage of a soul to the hereafter. There were many different concepts of the afterlife prior to the old testament.

I never said there is no other concepts of gods. Of course there are countless concepts of gods.
But which other religions that have such strict concept of heaven and hell than abrahamaic religions?

That can't possibly be someone's basis for faith. If you have any integrity you couldn't possibly believe that uttering a few words daily would fool your creator. You either believe it or you don't. I'd rather be honest. If there is a punishment for honesty then so be it.

Never did I mention taking chances as the basis for faith or speculate about people's intention in choosing a faith.
What i did was comparing the logical outcomes of anyone's choice. The chances of what will happen to the believers and non-believers after we die. Never about the reason why they believe or not believe.

Why are you getting defensive and suddenly talking all over about what you believe or lack of it?

You also shouldn't believe something simply because it makes you happy.

What are you trying to say here?
Are trying to speculate that the believers believe because that's what makes them happy?

The truth matters. We really do want to know how much money we have in the bank, whether we have a cold or pneumonia, whether our spouse is faithful, and certainly whether we are right on the biggest question since man spoke. Those who trivialize it with pascal's wager betray their sincerity to themselves.

So you know the truth?
Care to enlighten the rest of humanity with the truth that you have been keeping?

 

[KAding]

This is not only about what atheism is morally, atheism is either a lack of insight, or a lack of wanting to see, there is 2 types of atheists, the one who cannot see, and the one who does not want to see.

I can never follow this argument about "not wanting to see". Either you believe there is a God or you don't. And then the next step is either believing a specific religion or not. Why would I not want to see the truth, especially if that truth is a matter of eternal hellfire or not! It doesn't make the least bit of sense to me.

sure you can lead a full life as an ateist, but you do not bring nothing morally, you just surf on the moral codes of your society.

That is not true. Many secular moral systems are continuously being refined and improved as new insights and thinkers debate it. I do not think it religious doctrine that brought us essential principles of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, individual liberty, human rights, the abolition of slavery, gender equality, animal rights, etc. There is not one secular moral code (and there isn't such a thing as an 'atheist' one!), but many are in my opinion miles ahead of the pre-medieval ones provided by the Abrahamic religions.

now how do you distinguish wright from wrong, you will not kill you will not steal because you know it is wrong, now why is that?

Reason! That is after all the whole point of moral philosophy, to which countless people have contributed. We can articulate some essential premises and develop a code from that. For me these premises are individual liberty in combination with the harm principle. Those tell me that killing and stealing are wrong. No divine code needed for that.

the awnser is that gods insuflated a moral code in every humans even in those who deny him.
and those morals are from god.

thus atheism seems stupidity.

Why, thank you .

when god can be proven with faith but also with reason.

I disagree.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

classical, I see you have some talent in the fallacious strawman arguments.
with your ad populum, calling to the majority is quite fallacious.
and I see the if there is no god trown there. is that your gut feeling? should we start a new religion based upon your gut feeling?

when you put your trust in god there can be no wrog awnsers. we are all madly in love with the same god no matter what the religion.

If you like, you could address the points I've made. That may be better than throwing around irrelevant philosophical terms that you don't appear to understand.

The choice is yours. :shade:

Peace

 

[Gator]

Atheism was the biggest building block in the foundational structure of Soviet Communism. If that is not being based on atheism, it is only a hair bredth distance from being so.

Communism was a social and political based system so to say that atheism was a founding doctrine is incorrect (no offense to your Grandparents).

As Marx saw it it was Religion/Church that had to be abolished. Religion was targeted because it was a political tool of those in power used to oppress the people. The Communist Manifesto metions only organized religion and does not metion God or Atheism.

 

[Woodrow]

Communism was a social and political based system so to say that atheism was a founding doctrine is incorrect (no offense to your Grandparents).

As Marx saw it it was Religion/Church that had to be abolished. Religion was targeted because it was a political tool of those in power used to oppress the people. The Communist Manifesto metions only organized religion and does not metion God or Atheism.

I see your point. But, to me that is like saying a Dietician only opposes establishments that sell fattening foods, while not opposing obesity.

 

[GuestFellow]

As Marx saw it it was Religion/Church that had to be abolished. Religion was targeted because it was a political tool of those in power used to oppress the people. The Communist Manifesto metions only organized religion and does not metion God or Atheism.

But it does prevent people from practising their religion. In North Korea Christians are persecuted for practising their faith. So in some countries Atheism does play a major role in Communist societies. Is this not oppressing people?

 

[JaffaCake]

I was wondering what Atheism brings to society and the world. That theists don’t,

Objectivity?

I am curious on issues of spreading the idea of peace and joy to the world. does atheist spread those?

Some do, some don't, same as theists.

do they have large organisations that help the poor the suffering etc?

The Red Cross (as strange as that may seem).

Because when you look at it, a theist thinker and atheist thinker are quite the same and identical if not for a lack in the atheist, the lack of faith,

Exactly.

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly.

I think you're confusing 'atheist' with 'belligerent a-hole'.

and getting down the road, as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.

Are you certain you chose the right religion? How will you know until it's too late? That's the same problem.

I'm not worried at all.

 

[Gator]

But it does prevent people from practising their religion. In North Korea Christians are persecuted for practising their faith. So in some countries Atheism does play a major role in Communist societies. Is this not oppressing people?

Definitely, Communist Dictatorships as practiced are F****ed up (even the theory is impractical).

I was just pointing out the fact it is a political motivation rather than some philosophical base and that it was not a "Basic foundation".

Just to clarify my position on things, people will use any reason (religion, atheism, ethnic, tribal, political, etc.) to justify being horrible to each other.

North Korea, the Taliban states are both repressive yet one is based on religion while the other is not. So religion alone isn't the problem.

 

[Justufy]

You haven't reasoned so far, maybe you could start. This is a blank slate, what's the proof for god's existence?

Ok let’s start with this: throughout the years philosophers and theologians have done a fine job of proving god using logic and reason, for example st-Thomas of Aquinas has provided 5 arguments in hi works summa theologia which I present to you from Wikipedia, Wikipedia il well vulgarised for the regular folk. I think Thomas Aquinas has done a fine job using concepts from both Aristotle and Plato for these arguments.


Some things are moved.
Everything that is moving is moved by a mover.
An infinite regress of movers is impossible.
Therefore, there is an unmoved mover from whom all motion proceeds.
This mover is what we call God.


Some things are caused.
Everything that is caused is caused by something else.
An infinite regress of causation is impossible.
Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause of all that is caused.
This causer is what we call God.

Many things in the universe may either exist or not exist. Such things are called contingent beings.
It is impossible for everything in the universe to be contingent, for then there would be a time when nothing existed, and so nothing would exist now, since there would be nothing to bring anything into existence, which is clearly false.
Therefore, there must be a necessary being whose existence is not contingent on any other being or beings.
This being is whom we call God.


Varying perfections of varying degrees may be found throughout the universe.
These degrees assume the existence of an ultimate standard of perfection.
Therefore, perfection must have a pinnacle.
This pinnacle is whom we call God.


All natural bodies in the world act toward ends.
These objects are in themselves unintelligent.
Acting toward an end is characteristic of intelligence.
Therefore, there exists an intelligent being that guides all natural bodies toward their ends.
This being is whom we call God.

 

[Justufy]

IMHO an atheist has no more to fear from death than a believer, who will always be in doubt

This is an emotional argument and is not valid. ''Im not afraid of there being no life after death'' Please refrain from using these fine peices of sophistry.:hiding:

 

[Justufy]

I think it is fairly safe to assume that being dead will be very much the same as before I was born.

What brings you to this assumption?

 

[Pygoscelis]

That just shows that you are incapable of truly envisioning yourself as an atheist, since apparently in "those last instants" you still assume a God exists. IMHO an atheist has no more to fear from death than a believer, who will always be in doubt whether he has properly followed Gods instructions. For me personally, the only fear of death is in the process of dying. I think it is fairly safe to assume that being dead will be very much the same as before I was born.

Indeed. Atheists literally have nothing to fear from death, because to the atheist death is nothing. If your "atheist" is on his death bed fearing hell... he isn't an atheist.

 

[Pygoscelis]

If there is God, the biggest loser will be those who reject that God exists.

From reading these holy books I see far more bits about God hating you worshiping false Gods than God hating you worshiping no God at all.

 

[Pygoscelis]

But it does prevent people from practising their religion. In North Korea Christians are persecuted for practising their faith. So in some countries Atheism does play a major role in Communist societies. Is this not oppressing people?

I think this line of argument confuses atheism with religious freedom. The two are not related.

There are plenty of atheists out there who actually believe that religion is a good thing - for other people. Michael Shermer calls this "belief in belief" and it is very common. There is nothing inherently about atheism that pushes one to restrict the religious beliefs of others.

Also, note that many religions themselves explicitly forbid the worship of what they see as false gods thus restricting religious freedom.