What does this verse mean?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lavikor201
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 33
  • Views Views 4K

lavikor201

IB Expert
Messages
1,068
Reaction score
138
This is in no way a shot at the Quran or anything. Maybe one of the knowledgable posters such as Ansar Al Adr can help me out. Does this verse claim that Jews are idolators?



They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided." Say thou: "Nay the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." (Surah 2:135)

Waqaloo koonoo hoodan aw nasaratahtadoo qul bal millata ibraheema haneefan wamakana mina almushrikeena
2_135.gif


I don't understand how you can call a Jew an idolator because once a Jew worships an idol or does not accept that there is a G-d. Then he is no longer a Jew in religious terms. Maybe he is a Jew culturaly but not Religiously. And he is not accepted as one.
 
Last edited:
Interesting verse. Might generate some interesting discussion as well. Are you sure it is the correct verse and not mistranslated. I hate it when the Torah is misquoted or they get many words wrong, so I assume Muslims hate that when people butcher the Quran as well.

Did you get it from a 'Pro-Islam' or at least an unbiased source?
 
And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.
 
I am far from being a Qur'anic scholar. I find that Ayyattt to be quite interesting. I believe if you look at a few of the ayyatts that preced and follow it it may make a little more sense. I colored one part red that I belive is a significant part of understanding what is said. It is very difficult to attempt to explain one or 2 ayyatts, without trying to explain the entire surah. Hopefully Ansar or on of the others that are more knowledgable will give more insight for you.

:133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy god and the god of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah: To Him we bow (in Islam)." S P C
2:134. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! S P C

2:135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." S P C
2:136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." S P

2:137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
 
I would also like to know the exact meaning behind the verse. Clearly, the Jews are not being referred to as idolaters since Abraham was not an idolater and were are to follow him. But hopefully we can get an better explanation from a brother more knowlegable.

lavikor201, are you reading the entire of Surah Baqarah? It was one of the most difficult surahs for me to get grasp of (I even bought a book devoted to that one Surah! The historical context for the Surah is also important as about 1/3 of it is devoted to the Children of Israel.
 
2:137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path

So does this mean that according to the Quran if Jews believe in monothiesm than they are in the right path? Even though they have stated that they compare Judaism to idolating? Or does it mean that Jews must follow the Quran itself and accept Mohammad as a prophet (you believe that) to be on the 'right path' according to the Quran.

For example I believe in Monotheism like all Jews do (we were the first practicing monothiests) but I do not accept Mohammad as a messanger of Hashem or the Quran to be the word of Hashem.

So according to this verse in the Quran am I an 'idolator' or 'on the right path'? Either way, thank you for your awnser Woodrow. It is very important to view the verse included with the verses around it.
 
I would also like to know the exact meaning behind the verse. Clearly, the Jews are not being referred to as idolaters since Abraham was not an idolater and were are to follow him. But hopefully we can get an better explanation from a brother more knowlegable.

lavikor201, are you reading the entire of Surah Baqarah? It was one of the most difficult surahs for me to get grasp of (I even bought a book devoted to that one Surah! The historical context for the Surah is also important as about 1/3 of it is devoted to the Children of Israel.

I am trying to. It is pretty tough though. :X I decided to read the Quran to educate myself more on Islam as I did when I read the New Testament a while back to educate myself on Christianity.

I find other religions very interesting and I feel I don't have to accept a book as any sort of truth to read it. :)
 
So does this mean that according to the Quran if Jews believe in monothiesm than they are in the right path? Even though they have stated that they compare Judaism to idolating? Or does it mean that Jews must follow the Quran itself and accept Mohammad as a prophet (you believe that) to be on the 'right path' according to the Quran.

Jews can live righteous live and follow their faith and still go to heaven.
 
I am trying to. It is pretty tough though. :X I decided to read the Quran to educate myself more on Islam as I did when I read the New Testament a while back to educate myself on Christianity.

I find other religions very interesting and I feel I don't have to accept a book as any sort of truth to read it. :)

Baqarah is the longest surah. It is not really a difficult one but it is lengthy and everything in it must be taken into consideration when even refering to one ayyat.

Like all things, it is impossible to form a solid understanding, unless all references within the writing are understood. I would not attempt to say that I fully understand Surah 2. I do have my own opinions, but I feel it is much better a person seek the advice of a scholar and also read with their own eyes.
 
I believe that some Jews are considered idolaters... did not some Jews take a golden calf for a God at some point? correct me if I am wrong but there are tons of Jewish sects as there are in Christianity and Islam.... you said before you don't believe in Ezra as a son of God, yet I read and heard otherwise from other Jews... I used to think they were all the same, but my lab partner in under grad who looked Hasidic didn't believe in the current secular state of Israel, yet I have met others who ridiculed him and mocked him and didn't think he was a "true" Jew.... so who knows?... I think it is safe to assume that even in Islam there are some sects which border upon idolatry, the minute you stray from the fundamentals? My take... and I am not a scholar
 
did not some Jews take a golden calf for a God at some point?

No. They were the Hebrew people at this point and this was before we recieved the Torah. After we recieved the Torah, G-d's word, then we became a religion and all those who worshiped the calf were not part of this or they beged for forgiveness and were forgivin by Moshe.

correct me if I am wrong but there are tons of Jewish sects as there are in Christianity and Islam....

Not really. There are the Misnagdim and the Chassidic. In the Misnagdim there are 3 different types of outlooks on the Torah (Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox movements.) In the Chassidic world they all go by the same concept but each group has a leader who they say has the most wisdom when it comes to commentaries on the Torah ect...

you said before you don't believe in Ezra as a son of God, yet I read and heard otherwise from other Jews...

According to Jewish law, if you accepted Ezra as the 'Son of G-d' your not really Jewish religious wise. Your an idolator.

I used to think they were all the same, but my lab partner in under grad who looked Hasidic didn't believe in the current secular state of Israel,

Many Chassidic believe that the State of Israel should be run by Jewish law and not Moral and Western Law. The more 'Liberal' and 'Secular' Jews say no because Israel has more than 1 religion and we should not force our law on them. It is a big debate.

My take... and I am not a scholar

It is an interesting take, and you make some valid points and reasonings in your post. I'd give you reps but I am not allowed to for 24 hours. :cry:
 
No. They were the Hebrew people at this point and this was before we recieved the Torah. After we recieved the Torah, G-d's word, then we became a religion and all those who worshiped the calf were not part of this or they beged for forgiveness and were forgivin by Moshe.
This 2nd chapter is actually entitled "the calf"... that is what Albaqra means....
Twice I believe the calf is mentioned in this chapter...
once about the this story......
The Story of Israelites and the Cow - The Pious Man and His Son



Moses (pbuh) stayed among his people calling them to Allah. It seems their souls were uneasy in a way that the observant eye could not mistake. Their obstinacy and chattering about what has become known as "The Story of the Cow" was unwarranted. This topic did not need so many negotiations between Moses and the people, nor did it need all their bias.
It was said that among the children of Israel there lived a pious man. He was poor but very careful about how he earned the living; it had to be honestly earned. Everything that he did was done for the sake of Allah, never for selfish gain. On his deathbed his last words were: "O Allah, I place my wife, my little son, and my only possession, a calf, in Your care." Strangely, he asked his wife to lead the calf to the forest and leave it there. He did this because he did not trust the children of Israel, for they were a selfish and greedy folk.

After a few years when the boy had grown up, his mother told him: "Your father has left you a calf in the trust of Allah. It must have grown into a cow by now." The son was surprised. He did not know of any calf all these years and asked his mother where it was. She replied: "Be like your father and say: 'I trust in Allah,' then go look for it."

With a rope in his hand, he went to the forest and prostrated himself before Allah: "O Allah, Lord of Abraham and Jacob and Job, return to me my father's trust. " As he raised his head, he saw a cow coming towards him. It stopped submissively beside him. He tied the rope around its neck and led it to his house. The cow would not allow anyone else come near it except the young man.

The youth was as pious as his father. He earned his living by cutting wood. Whatever he earned he divided into three equal portions; one he gave to his mother, one he used for his needs, and the last he gave as charity. His nights, too, were divided into three parts; during the early part of the night he helped his mother, the middle part he devoted to the worship of Allah, and during the last part he rested.

The People Ask Questions About a Cow


About this a wealthy man died, leaving behind an only son, who inherited his father's wealth. His cousins envied his good fortune, and secretly killed him so that they could inherit it.

The dead boy's other relatives came to the Prophet Moses (pbuh) and asked his help in tracing the boy's murderer. Moses instructed them to slaughter a cow, remove its tongue and place it on the corpse. This would reveal the murderer, he told them. They accused Moses of joking. He replied: "Allah forbid that I be foolish!" They questioned him about the type of cow they should slaughter, and he said: "This cow is neither young nor mature, but in between the two conditions, so do as you have been commanded."

Instead of following his direction, they asked him more questions. "What color must it be?"

He replied: "Verily, it is yellow in color."

They still were not satisfied with his answer and asked for more details. Moses replied: "It is an unyoked cow; it does not plow the soil nor water the tilth, and is entirely without marks."

Moses' People Find the Right Cow


They went out in search of such a cow. The only one that matched the description was the one owned by the orphaned youth. They met him on the way and asked the price for which he would sell his cow. He told them he would have to consult his mother first, so they accompanied him to his house and offered her three gold coins. She refused their offer, saying that the cow was worth much more.

They were on increasing their offer and the mother kept on refusing. Finally the urged the son to speak to his mother to be reasonable. He told them: "I will not sell the cow without my mother's approval, even if you offered me its skin filled with gold!" On hearing this, his mother smiled and said: "Let that be the price: its skin filled with gold." They realized that no other cow would do; they had to have it at any price. They agreed to buy the cow and paid with its skin filled with gold.

and the second time is the story of the golden calf so if you were really interested in further explanation I'd ask a scholar but this is the best of my own understanding :w: :)
 
The Israelites who worshiped the cow though unless they basically (i hate this word but I will use it) repented, they never became Jews.
 
Hi lavikor,
This is in no way a shot at the Quran or anything. Maybe one of the knowledgable posters such as Ansar Al Adr can help me out. Does this verse claim that Jews are idolators?

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided." Say thou: "Nay the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." (Surah 2:135)
The verse states 2:135 They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the Mushrikîn."

Mushrikîn are the people who commit shirk. Shirk refers to associating partners with God, by giving them divine rights or attributes. What this verse is saying is that when someone asks Muslims to follow religion X or religion Y, Muslims should point out that they are just following the simple message of all the Prophets, to worship God alone without any partners. This verse is saying that as the Islamic message is the same as that of all the Prophets (i.e. to not associate partners with God), Christians and Jews should have no objections to it. Abraham is accepted by Muslims, Christians and Jews and his path was the simple path of pure and pristine monotheism.
I don't understand how you can call a Jew an idolator because once a Jew worships an idol or does not accept that there is a G-d.
Contrary to attributing idolatry to Judaism, the Qur'an is pointing out that Muslims are following the pure and pristine monotheism that was preached by the very Prophets the Jews uphold, so how can anyone possibly object or oppose it? Rather, when they see that this message is the same message as that brought by their Prophets there should be no hesitation in accepting it. On a related note, (since I noticed this was brought up) Islam states that one must accept the Prophet sent to them in order to attain salvation. So if someone receives the message of Islam they need to believe in Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Hope this helps.

Regards
 
So if someone receives the message of Islam they need to believe in Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

So does that mean that Islam holds you can only go to heaven if you accept the prophet Mohammad? In Judaism, any gentile (Non-Jew) will go to heaven if you follow the Seven Laws of Noah and live a righteous life. Our Rabbi's tell us to stress to all other nations that they must follow the Seven Laws of Noah. That is why Judaism makes it hard for you to convert (takes over a year).

Are there similar laws like this in Islam or is it one of those religions where you will basically 'burn in the fires of hell' if you don't accept it. Like some other religions we all know.

Overall though good explanation of the verse. I see it in a new light now, that I did not see it in before. Thank you.
 
So does that mean that Islam holds you can only go to heaven if you accept the prophet Mohammad?
If someone recieves the message of Islam properly, then they can not reject it with impunity. When God sent Prophet Moses it was incumbent on his people to follow him and believe in him. The same is true for Prophet Jesus. The same is true for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon all of them. God does not send a prophet for no reason; He sends them to guide people back to the original message of all the prophets. There really is no reason for someone to reject and disbelieve in the Prophet.

Nevertheless, if someone does not adequately recieve the message of Islam then they will be judged according to their circumstances. God knows best what was in their heart, we don't.

A related, though very long, article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=533&section=indepth&subsection=Glorious Quran

Regards
 
If someone recieves the message of Islam properly, then they can not reject it with impunity.

Oh? Is this a proven study? Or is it just a statement? No offense, but I seriously doubt that.

When God sent Prophet Moses it was incumbent on his people to follow him and believe in him. The same is true for Prophet Jesus. The same is true for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon all of them. God does not send a prophet for no reason;

But G-d warns us of false prophets. He warns us that false prophets will lead people astray.

There really is no reason for someone to reject and disbelieve in the Prophet.

There is a huge reason to reject them if they are fake.

Nevertheless, if someone does not adequately recieve the message of Islam then they will be judged according to their circumstances. God knows best what was in their heart, we don't.

You never completly awnsered my question. Another member has told me that if you are righteous and follow Judaism then under Islam you will go to heaven. I was suprised because Judaism is similar in this aspect. Are you saying this is not true, and it is all dependant on if you recieved the message of Islam properly? I'm sort of lost between two different explanations of the same topic.
 
Last edited:
Oh? Is this a proven study? Or is it just a statement? No offense, but I seriously doubt that.
You asked me to explain the Islamic perspective not to provide empirical evidence. Has that changed?

From the Islamic perspective, you are accountable for accepting the prophets sent to you.
But G-d warns us of false prophets. He warns us that false prophets will lead huge amounts of the world astray.

There is a huge reason to reject them if they are fake.
Of course, but the explicit supposition is that they are fake. If they are not fake then there is no reason to reject them. That is why God gave us the faculties of reason and logic to investigate and search for the truth.

Think about it this way, why would Islamic doctrine be built around the supposition that it is false?? That's not logically coherent.
You never completly awnsered my question.
My apologies.
Another member has told me that if you are righteous and follow Judaism then under Islam you will go to heaven. I was suprised because Judaism is similar in this aspect. Are you saying this is not true, and it is all dependant on if you recieved the message of Islam properly?
Yes, it is not true that someone who disbelieves in Prophet Muhammad and thinks he is false will go to paradise. If that was the case, why would the Prophet have bothered preaching at all? If you are a righteous person, God will guide you to the truth. Why would God allow a righteous believing servant of His, who craves for the truth, to be mislead and come to reject God's Messenger? That's not consistent with the concept of God as the Most Just.

Regards :)
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top