What is Islam? Who is Muhammad (SAW)?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ramadhan
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 135
  • Views Views 31K
Boaz said:
Like I said earlier
This is why I do not spiritually associate with any scripture. Scriptures can either be modified or taught in a context that suits the people in charge.
Click to expand...

Well you are wrong.
Al Qur'an has never been modified.

And muslims don't even call/treat/regard translations or tafseer of Al Qur'an as Al Qur'an.
And Al Qur'an is the only scripture that has never been modified, so shouldn't you now follow the unchanged word of god as God commands in Deuteronomy 4:2?
 
Boaz said:
Not if I don't believe that it's the authentic word of God.
Click to expand...

Can you tell us your reasons why you don't think Al Qur'an is the authentic word of God?

Also, your scripture commands not to follow scriptures which have been changed/modified, and you yourself acknowledge that your scripture has been modified, so why are you still following it?

A case of cognitive dissonance or doublethink?
 
I do not follow it, now that you ask. I'm culturally Jewish but spiritually Theist. As to your question about the Quran, every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic. Scriptures I see as not even guides but suggestions of how to lead a good life in the service of God.
 
Boaz said:
I do not follow it, now that you ask. I'm culturally Jewish but spiritually Theist
Click to expand...

So basically you are an agnostic?

Boaz said:
As to your question about the Quran, every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic
Click to expand...

It's true that every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic.
Now to determine which one is authentic and which are not, there have been tests, examinations of evidence against their claim, no?

And so far the only scripture that passed those tests and examinations is Al qur'an.
The followers of other scriptures normally meekly resorted to "it's all a mystery slash faith".

Boaz said:
Scriptures I see as not even guides but suggestions of how to lead a good life in the service of God.
Click to expand...

So you don't think all scriptures are from God, but they are merely creation of men?
 
Last edited:
Boaz said:
As to your question about the Quran, every religion claims that their scriptures are authentic.
Click to expand...

The Noble Qur'an has not been altered in anyway whatsoever till date and is in its original form since its inception way back in the 7th century (A.D.). Agreed by both Muslims and Non-Musllims.

Scriptures of other religions have gone through corruptions. In some cases, the actual birth of the scripture is unknown. The Bible has had modifications and the proof of that is its multiple versions. Agreed by both Muslims and Non-Muslims.
 
Messenger I am not sure of. Maybe they were just righteous men. And yes, I do think scriptures are the creation of men. Confucius taught the moral values of the torah before Jesus had. And I'm sure that Confucius wasn't of an Abrahamic faith.
 
Boaz said:
Messenger I am not sure of. Maybe they were just righteous men
Click to expand...

But what are righteous men?
who judged those who are righteous?
and how do we know they are righteous?
what kind of criteria that makes those righterious?
and who/where those criteria came from and who created the criteria for righteousness?

You are not sure about messengers.
What about Noah, Abaraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Muhammad (pbut) who all claimed to be messengers from God, do you not believe their claim then?

Boaz said:
And yes, I do think scriptures are the creation of men.
Click to expand...

Ok.
So when it says in the scripture, "I am God, this book is from me", does this mean you think all those messengers and prophets were lying?
You said earlier they were righteous, but you also believe they lied.
So is lying a righteous quality in your book?
How did you come to conclusion that lies is among righteousness qualities/characters?

Boaz said:
Confucius taught the moral values of the torah before Jesus had. And I'm sure that Confucius wasn't of an Abrahamic faith.
Click to expand...

Confucius may or may not have been a descendent of Abraham and he may or may not have been a messenger of God , but here's what Allah in the Qur'an tells us:
And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e., do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). (Qur'ân 16:36)

And, indeed We have sent Messengers before you (O Muhammad[SUP](P)[/SUP]); of some of them We have related to you their story and of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. So, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (Qur'ân 40:78)

Only arrogant jews who think messengers of God are only sent to them and among them. And even when one is sent to them, they rejected them, sucvh as prophet Jesus (pbuh), and when the last messenger (pbuh) sent was an arab, they also rejected him.


​
 
Last edited:
maybe offtopic to the OP but the discussions have generated here, it is very informative interview:
 
Boaz said:
Confucius taught the moral values of the torah before Jesus had. And I'm sure that Confucius wasn't of an Abrahamic faith.
Click to expand...

Anyone can propagate lofty, inspiring thought, even bad people... it's a hypocritical assessment of someone to beleive them to be good just because they talked a "good" game.

It's the actions of people which should be held accountable.


Boaz said:
I'm culturally Jewish but spiritually Theist.
Click to expand...

Confucius propagated "ancestor worship" - bleh, and you plug this man, here? It makes no sense. Boaz, you have to bring examples that hold weight in light of "theist" religious enquiry, else, you make a weak, muted point.

Ramadhan said:
Confucius may or may not have been a descendent of Abraham and he may or may not have been a messenger of God...
Click to expand...

He wasn't a messenger of God. He propagated ungodly worship.
 
Last edited:
Scimitar said:

He wasn't a messenger of God. He propagated ungodly worship.
Click to expand...

Why would you say that? I think Confucius did the best a man could using human reason in the absence of God's direct revelation. I wouldn't call him a messenger of God but he was certainly an upright man whose teachings were moral and beneficial.
 
Ramadhan said:
But what are righteous men?
who judged those who are righteous?
and how do we know they are righteous?
what kind of criteria that makes those righterious?
and who/where those criteria came from and who created the criteria for righteousness?
Click to expand...

Kinda makes you think don't it?

Let's define it then. "righteousness" : It is an attribute that implies that a person's actions are justified, and can have the connotation that the person has been "judged" or "reckoned" as leading a life that is pleasing to God.

Iconodude: If I asked you to eat toast and then ate poo myself, wouldn't that seem totally stupid? Righteousness is living by Gods' law. And Confucius didn't adhere to that, he worshipped his ancestors... So the analogy stands. Like I said before, anyone can talk a big game, but to walk it according to Gods' law is something else.

These times we are living in, people are ready to accept other religions as the truth alongside their own chosen faith, this doesn't show faith - it shows a shameful compromise.

I'm a thiest, I believe in ONE GOD. And the thought of worshipping ancestors is just as ridiculous to me as worshipping manufactured idols, or eating poo when the rest of world is eating toast...

Calling Confucius "Righteous" is too big a compliment for him. He had some sound ideas, yes - but they weren't his. They were adopted by him. Where did these ideas of his come from? Ever care to think about that? Let me make it easy for you - they came from God, through divine revelation, to prophets and messengers of God. Some of these teachings reached China along the oldest trade route known to man - the Silk Road. The Silk Road spanned from China in the east all the way up to the middle east, some 2000 miles. And guess what? The middle east is the land where most prophets of God walked. Including Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus and Muhammad to name but a handful... (May Allah grant HIS mercy, peace and blessings on them all).

That is all.
 
Last edited:
Scimitar said:

Calling Confucius "Righteous" is too big a compliment for him. He had some sound ideas, yes - but they weren't his. They were adopted by him. Where did these ideas of his come from? Ever care to think about that? Let me make it easy for you - they came from God, through divine revelation, to prophets and messengers of God. Some of these teachings reached China along the oldest trade route known to man - the Silk Road. The Silk Road spanned from China in the east all the way up to the middle east, some 2000 miles. And guess what? The middle east is the land where most prophets of God walked. Including Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus and Muhammad to name but a handful... (May Allah grant HIS mercy, peace and blessings on them all).
Click to expand...


Confucius did not have access to the faith revealed to Abraham, Moses, David, etc. He did, however, have his conscience and his reason, both of which are gifts of God of course, and he used them very well in a land rife with many wrong superstitions. Obviously not everything Confucius believed or taught was correct but again he was a righteous man who did his best with what little he could, and there was much good in his teaching despite the idolatrous culture in which he lived. Of course all truth and goodness is from God. Many people will block this truth within themselves. So when someone earnestly seeks truth, and I believe Confucius did this, then we can recognize a spark of God's wisdom in his teaching.
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top