What is Islam? Who is Muhammad (SAW)?

[M.I.A.]

my two cents,

iv read that the angel Gabriel AS had wings from horizon to horizon.

i guess being in its company left little room for negotiation..

strange interpretation but being squeezed literally would make learning/memorizing very difficult.

also in response to OP

the thing islam and christianity have in common is that the jews were expecting something and something else turned up. the jews have always been the people of god.. they just refuse to accept his prophets pbut

the irony of it is lost because its a lot more serious than a joke.

just speculating.

 

[Ramadhan]

strange interpretation but being squeezed literally would make learning/memorizing very difficult.

Are you saying that Jibril (as) squeezed prophet (SAW) every time he visited him?
Or are you saying that Jibril (as) brought the Qur'an at that one and first time only?

Can I get your source of Islamic information?
Because most of the time, your islamic information is totally different then mine.

The event at Hiraa cave is one of the most clearly narrated events of prophet Muhammad SAW as he passed on to his companions (ra), and one of the purpose Jibril (as) squeezed him is to make him (pbuh) realized that it was all real, and that the angel Jibril (as) was real, and that it was not all a dream or his own imagination.

 

[M.I.A.]

i have no source,

others have wrestled angels if i am not mistaken.
as for how many times revelation was sent to the prophet pbuh.. it was over a number of years( probably under different circumstances and locations), you know better than me.. im not good with history.

in fact i have not said anything about being squeezed, other than it would make it difficult. in my imagination i would see my prophet surrounded by that angel AS to the point it may have been restrictive. i have also said that under an all encompassing god.. people needed all the intercession they could get.

please read my post again.. i did not say intercession but i hoped you would read between the lines.

you are true though my Islamic information is based solely on my skewed perspective of life. outside of this forum i seldom share my views for fear of misguiding anybody silly enough to listen.

so feel more than free to deconstruct as you see fit.

 

[Aprender]

Ah. The thread is taking a bit of a turn. I won't bother responding to the post above but as you can clearly see from what was stated by some who have come here in earlier posts (ie apparently being squeezed and let go of is torture now), many people make these claims about Islam based on their own opinions and propaganda as opposed to actual evidence. I was hoping someone would come in and give you some clear sources to look at...

 

[Ramadhan]

others have wrestled angels if i am not mistaken.

I haven't heard anyone wrestled angels. There is, however, verses in the OT that say Jacob (pbuh) wrestled with God and he defeated God.

as for how many times revelation was sent to the prophet pbuh.. it was over a number of years( probably under different circumstances and locations), you know better than me.. im not good with history.

Did Jibril squeeze prophet (SAW) each time he brought the revelation?, I was assuming that was you were trying to say, implied by this:

strange interpretation but being squeezed literally would make learning/memorizing very difficult.

in fact i have not said anything about being squeezed, other than it would make it difficult. in my imagination i would see my prophet surrounded by that angel AS to the point it may have been restrictive.

Ah, so you do not believe prophet Muhammad (saw) was squeezed during his first meeting with Jibril (as)?
even with the unimaginable size of Jibril (as), he is not of this dimension, and by leave of Allah, he wouldn't have restricted prophet (saw), would he? Also, do you not believe that each of us have two angels that record our good and bad deeds. Do you feel restricted by them?

Prophet Muhammad (saw) did get squeezed by Jibril (as) during the first revelation in the cave Hiraa, as per narration:

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.

http://ahadith.co.uk/chapter.php?cid=1

i have also said that under an all encompassing god.. people needed all the intercession they could get.
please read my post again.. i did not say intercession but i hoped you would read between the lines.

Who said anything about intercession?
Please read my post again. I'm not sure who you were addressing?

you are true though my Islamic information is based solely on my skewed perspective of life. outside of this forum i seldom share my views for fear of misguiding anybody silly enough to listen.

I don't really care what kind of perspective of life you have, but everytime you falsely attribute information against Allah SWT, Rasulullah SAW, and Islam in general, I will have to expose you.

 

[Ramadhan]

I am actually interested to know the views of pastor Grace seekers and Eric H who seem to accept the prophethood of Muhammad (SAW).

 

[Tyrion]

Here's a question I've wanted to ask about those people-squeezing devils Christians seem to think visited Muhammad (saw)... Why exactly would a Devil squeeze a man he was going to give revelation to? Especially when the devil's supposedly evil message echoed Christian and Jewish teachings? Would God really allow Satan to mislead men using his own commandments?

I don’t know if you would like if someone would vehemently squeeze you till you become exhausted; but I’m sure that for a normal human being (not for a masochist) it would be painful and therefore tormenting. So, why did he cause pain to Muhammad?

Wait, am I missing something here? Are you (a Christian) asking why God would allow pain/suffering to befall his servants? This seems a little silly... I mean, you believe God put himself on a cross, right? That was probably a bit more painful than a firm hug...

 

[M.I.A.]

lol i dont get who's english or grasp of it is worse mine or yours. i have nothing more to contribute.

 

[Ramadhan]

lol i dont get who's english or grasp of it is worse mine or yours. i have nothing more to contribute.

I'm sure we all are able to understand what you are saying if it's actually based on the qur'an and ahadeeth.

 

[M.I.A.]

it is not based on the quran and hadiths, it is based on the implementation of the quran and hadiths.
i feel twice my age honestly.. seen to much, been too far.

i could live forever and not understand all there is to understand of allah swt, the quran is the criterion for judgement.. you use it to get closer to god, or at least thats why i entered this reilgion.

 

[Ramadhan]

it is not based on the quran and hadiths, it is based on the implementation of the quran and hadiths.
i feel twice my age honestly.. seen to much, been too far.

Some others may also four times their age, and may have seen much more and been much too far than you have. Just because you think you have unique life experience, it does not give you any pass on saying things about Allah SWT, the angels, prophet Muhammad SAW and the Qur'an which are not true.

i could live forever and not understand all there is to understand of allah swt, the quran is the criterion for judgement.. you use it to get closer to god, or at least thats why i entered this reilgion.

nobody could live forever for sure, and nobody will ever understand there is to understand of Allah SWT. Any muslim of age knows this.
Yes, the Qur'an is the criterion for judgement and nowhere in the Qur'an it says that any muslim can say whatever their desire about Allah SWT and the prophets (pbut), in fact the Qur'an clearly says the opposite.

 

[M.I.A.]

everybody is unique,

unfortunately we all have similar character traits, if you learn to recognise methods of argument and extracting information then you begin to recognise those traits.

my life experience is unique to me, it is all my life decisions manifest...and another reason why i prefer to keep my mouth shut.
what god would give me tomorrow when i barely had today?

anyway the world is what you make it and it seems most will do better than me.

ultimately i dont have the sources you require and i dont wish to invent lies.

so it was god that hurt jocobs hip or am i still confused? please clarify

 

[Ramadhan]

You claimed to have experienced a lot and yet you have not learned to not say things which you don't have knowledge of. Especially about Allah SWT, the prophets (pbut), the angels (as) and Al Qur'an. This thread is not the first instances where you have stated such erroneous claims, which, as you are now admitting you have no source.
You do know why the christians went astray, don't you? Because they claimed things they had no evidence and didn't know of.
I always thought with more experience will make people more wise, but I might be wrong.

so it was god that hurt jocobs hip or am i still confused? please clarify

Genesis 32:24-32
And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
The man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel [He Struggles With God], because you have struggled with God and with men-and you have won."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." The man answered, "Why do you ask for my name?" Then he blessed Jacob there.
So Jacob named that place Peniel [Face of God], because he said, "I have seen God face to face, but my life was saved."
The sun rose as he passed Penuel. He was limping because of his hip.
Therefore, even today the people of Israel do not eat the muscle of the thigh attached to the hip socket because God touched the socket of Jacob's hip at the muscle of the thigh.

As muslims of course we believe that this passage was such a fabrication, but you are free to believe what you want to believe, although we all know there will be consequences to what we believe in.
I do not wish to go off topic, so if you still want to contribute to this thread, please stay on topic. Or you can open new threads which may suit what you have in mind, and I will entertain you there.

 

[Daniel Hoseiny]

Why exactly would a Devil squeeze a man he was going to give revelation to?

In order to compel him to accept his (false) revelation and to force him to act according to his (satan’s) will, for example. Devil is the enemy of humans and uses every opportunity to torment them.

Especially when the devil's supposedly evil message echoed Christian and Jewish teachings?

What??? Why the teaching of the Quran echoes Christian teaching?
Christians believe in one God in three Persons, the Triune God - the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit – Holy Trinity undivided and one in essence.
Christians believe in the Incarnation of God the Son, His human and Divine nature (which are undivided in Jesus Christ, who is one person), His sacrifice on the Cross on behalf of us all, His glorious Resurrection, Ascension into Heaven (in human nature), His approaching Second Coming in glory to judge the living and the dead when His Kingdom will have no end.
Christians believe in the Covenant with their God, the Covenant of the New Testament, Covenant made possible through the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. And except if you are in this Holy Covenant with God, there is no salvation possible for you.
The message for Christians is that the salvation is made possible by Christ, and only by Christ; i.e. not by a prophet, righteous, but only by the incarnated God in the person of Jesus Christ, according the Christian teaching:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

(Galatians 1) (by the way, it perfectly refers to Mohammad.)
Are you sure that Islam has a similar teaching? Then you are certainly not a Muslim.

Would God really allow Satan to mislead men using his own commandments?

Which commandments are you talking about? The commandment of God is:

‘That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.’

(John 5; read it completely).
I know you will say either that He’s calling himself Son because He is God’s righteous prophet, but even the contemporaries of Jesus, the Jews, rightly understood that He referred to Himself as God, equal with God the Father:

‘Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God’

. (John 5)
Or you will say that the Gospel is the fabrication of Christians; anyhow, this is what Christians have believed in, in the course of 2000 years.

Wait, am I missing something here? Are you (a Christian) asking why God would allow pain/suffering to befall his servants? This seems a little silly... I mean, you believe God put himself on a cross, right? That was probably a bit more painful than a firm hug...

When the Lord was crucified, it was His human Body and Soul that endured suffering. God the Son in His Divinity didn’t suffer anything. Moreover Jesus did it out of His Divine love for men, not because somebody compelled it Him to do (as is the case with Mohammed).

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

(John 10: 18)Furthermore the suffering was only temporary. The cause of it is the love for men. Jesus endured suffering and in three days rose up from the dead in order to redeem the mankind from the tyranny of sin and dead. He did it by taking upon himself the sin of the world (of all of us) and accepting the curse / suffering which the mankind deserved because of their sins. That’s why you have to accept Christ as your personal Redeemer and join His Church if you want to be justified from your sins (if you are aware of them of course) and be freed the consequences of the primordial sin.

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

(Romans 6: 9)
The same commandment of love He gives to His followers:

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

(John 15: 13)
I don’t know if Muslims agree with this commandment, but this is what Jesus did for us, men.

 

[M.I.A.]

your right there are consequences for what i believe in,

you did not answer my question, it was rhetorical anyway..

it only takes a look from the moment i step out of my door for me to realise that even if you were to offer me today i would tell you where to stick it to your face.

everybody walks this place stuck in there own little world/religion or outlook on life. you either enjoy what you have been given or fight for those who have had it taken away.
i am not content and i will not settle.

im sure god is aware of this.

lifes experiences do not translate well on paper and i cant teach you all i have seen in the space of a day.

taking the above into account its very much easier to die than to live, remember to follow the rules and you might make a difference.. or live contently.

you could learn the quran by heart or any scripture for that matter.. but it is easier to say then to do.
you know what your goal is, you planned ahead... you know what motivates you..even if you cant admit it to yourself.

enjoy the show.

..legal alien, you suffer much the same as ramadhan.. there is only one god, all the teachings were the same.
they did not differ until guidance had been sent to them.

that is the nature of man, ready to condemn or command ****ation.

your prophet was of the condemned, not in the eyes of his lord but in the eyes of his people.. and they were all his people.

you all lost your humanity in the belief of something inhuman.
gods commandment are always fulfilled.. the people used to carry them out are not always the saved.

jesus pbuh did not need m16's and ak47's.. it is by your own hands that you lead each other.. towards wherever it is you would like to go.

oh you thought thats chiched,

the problem is that you think knowledge, guidance or opinion are limited to a specific set of people.

hear this fitna( in your opinion im sure) and tell me if you can see through what he's saying.. his voice is much louder than most.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22l1sf5JZD0

those that can bear with it, might learn not to despise it so much.. what can i say, we are all a product of the system.

 

[Perseveranze]

I can accept that Muhammad received a revelation from an angel. But for me the question is: Which angel it was? I know that there are two kinds of these spiritual beings: the angels of God and the evil spirits.

A fragment from Muhammad’s life:



If it really was holy angel of God Gabriel, then why should he torment a man, God’s creature in this way, all the more if this man is supposed to be God-pleasing? This is what I’m interested to know from a Muslim.

P.S. Please don’t see this post as an intended insult or a challenge for a heavy debate. It’s just a fair discussion.

For your own good, read this - http://www.scribd.com/doc/59893794/The-Promised-Prophet-of-the-Bible

 

[جوري]

'Legal Alien'-- you're persistently dodging the query of why god would put god to death on a cross for a painful death, after said god spent the night in prayer to avoid such a fate.. The Q is not going to go away just because you bury your head in the sand..

best,

 

[Ramadhan]

you did not answer my question, it was rhetorical anyway..

which question? I have answered this question of yours: so it was god that hurt jocobs hip or am i still confused? please clarify
Read again the passage (Genesis 32:24:32) that I plastered in my post which shows christians believe God lost in a wrestling match against Jacob (pbut).
You didn't expect me to answer this question, did you: what god would give me tomorrow when i barely had today?
Because if you really did, then I suspect you need help, as only God is able to answer that question.

it only takes a look from the moment i step out of my door for me to realise that even if you were to offer me today i would tell you where to stick it to your face.

You need to relax, no one is trying to offer you anything, BUT be mindful that if you keep trying to post lies in this forum against Allah SWT, the prophets (pbut), the angels (as) and Al Qur'an, people will expose you.
You keep confusing christianity and Islam, and mixed up both truth and falsehoods and bible and the Qur'an.
You might want to do it in christianity forums, they might be more receptive as christians do not mind inventing lies against God, the prophets (pbut).

 

[M.I.A.]

no brother, im just trying to keep you entertained, just as you asked to entertain me.

i have no helper or planner except allah swt.

who can plan for tomorrow when he could not even plan for today?

 

[Ramadhan]

In order to compel him to accept his (false) revelation and to force him to act according to his (satan’s) will, for example. Devil is the enemy of humans and uses every opportunity to torment them.

So, christians believe it must have been the devil that revealed God's messages to prophet Muhammad SAW because angels would never hurt a prophet.

It cannot be more of an irony as in the previous post I pasted this passage from bible:

Genesis 32:24-32
And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
The man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel [He Struggles With God], because you have struggled with God and with men-and you have won."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." The man answered, "Why do you ask for my name?" Then he blessed Jacob there.
So Jacob named that place Peniel [Face of God], because he said, "I have seen God face to face, but my life was saved."
The sun rose as he passed Penuel. He was limping because of his hip.
Therefore, even today the people of Israel do not eat the muscle of the thigh attached to the hip socket because God touched the socket of Jacob's hip at the muscle of the thigh.

So, since according to Legal_alien only a satan can hurt a prophet, than in the wrestling match between Jacob and God, christians must believe that God = Satan.
Being squeezed is nothing compared to dislocating a hip. Then it must have been big strong satan that was wrestling with Jacob (pbut)