What is perfection?

[ranma1/2]

isn't "perfection" itself subjective. what is "actual perfection"? who defines?

exactly! what is actual perfection?

 

[ranma1/2]

since many have suggested that god is "perfect" please list some of the qualities of its perfection. Can it make mistakes? If ti were to make something what reason would it have for creating imperfection in it? What reason should it have for then punishing the things it created for having those exact imperfections they were designed with?

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


The reason why God is God is because He is perfect.


In arabic, an illaah is anything which is worshipped. Worship consists of being a slave (abd), and doing anything which your master commands you (ibaadah.)


The only true illaah who can be obeyed is the One who is Perfect, this is why Islam does not permit the worship of the creation.

That's why, God is known as Al-Illaah (Allah) - the One and only true God.



Since God is not like His creation in any way, and He is Perfect. There is none similar or like Him in any way - this is a sign of His Uniqueness. So none shares His Power, Knowledge, Wisdom, or any of His Attributes.


For One to be Perfect, they can not have an equal in any way. So those who claim that God is similar to His creation - they are contradicting this concept.



There are 2 extremes throughout the many different religions in the world;

1) This is the extreme in which 'god is similar to the creation.'

This is the claims of some christians who say Jesus son of Mary is God or the ancient Greeks who claimed that god had a family, or others who say that we can serve idols because these idols are 'god'. They use the claim that 'everything is God' because the creation is within God himself!

However, this is false because if humans, idols or the creation was God - then doesn't the Big Bang explain that the universe had a beginning?

Also, some claim (i.e. in some aspects of hindusim) - God came to life by the energy of 'Om' - so if God had a beginning, then can that really be an attribute of One who is perfect? Doesn't Perfection imply that One is not dependant upon another? (i.e. in this context, 'god' is dependant upon that energy source.)


So how can God be God if He has human attributes? This is falsehood, because the only reason why God is God is because He is NOT similar to His creation.



2) The other extreme is that there is none like God, therefore God cannot have any attributes. This includes many religions like Sikhism, and even some Islamic sects which strayed such as the Mu'tazilah [the philosophers.]

These people attempt to defend God but because of this extreme caution, they argue that He has no attributes. So they deny that God has Knowledge, Wisdom, Control etc. because all these attributes - the creation has them also.

The above is another extreme.



​

Islam is the answer to all the confusion that has occured throughout history;


The answer is in the Qur'an;

There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.

[Qur'an Ash-Shura 42:11]

​

He has many Attributes, but there is none Like Him in sharing these attributes.

So when He is the Seer, Hearer, Knower, Powerful etc. - He is in reality all of these, however - there is none like Him in these attributes in any way. We do not know the 'howness' of these Attributes, but we accept them as they are. We cannot comprehend God, so we accept them without knowing the details.


This is God's Perfection, a perfection which people throughout history have differed about. And this Qur'an was sent down to unite mankind on what they differed.



And Allah knows best.

 

[- Qatada -]

If ti were to make something what reason would it have for creating imperfection in it?

We've discussed that imperfection is by default for something which is dependant upon another.

What reason should it have for then punishing the things it created for having those exact imperfections they were designed with?

Because He is willing to forgive us no matter how great our error is, so long as we regret our evil and repent for it in this life [to redeem ourselves like gator said], are sincere to Him, and we do not associate partners with Him.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi ranma

Can something perfect create imprefection?

Can he? Yes
Would he? I don't know

Can pefection be improved on?
Can you add or subtract from something perfect and make it better?

Generally speaking, I believe by definition any change to something perfect would make it less perfect.

Can something perfect make mistakes?

If by something perfect you mean an omnipotent omniscient being, then no, he can't make mistakes. If you mean in in any other context, then that depends on the purpose. If the purpose for the being is not to make any mistakes, then the perfect form of that being cannot make mistakes. Allow me to elaborate on that with an example that I used in the other thread. The perfect espressos machine would make perfect espresso's. People might attempt to make tea with an espresso machine, and on some machines, that actually works! However the perfect espresso machine could make imperfect tea; because it is not within the criteria for perfection of the espresso machine to make perfect tea. this because it is not created for the purpose of making tea in the first place. So it's inability to make perfect tea doesn't render it into a "imperfect espresso machine". It might however render it as an "imperfect polyvalent machine". So it's important to ask the right question. Are you talking about the "perfect espresso machine", or about the "perfect polyvalent machine that apparently is designed to make espresso".

Does perfection exists?

In the Utopian sense, I'm inclined to say no, because I believe the human definition of Utopian perfection is flawed by inherited contradiction. That is to say, when people make a checklist of criteria of how an Utopian perfect would be, they are inclined to add contradicting criteria. (Example: It should have free will, but it shouldn't allow people to make the wrong choices). However I do think it is self evident, that there exists a perfection in the nature of "The best possible solution/method for a problem/objective" even if that solution/method exists only theoretically.

 

[Muezzin]

since many have suggested that god is "perfect" please list some of the qualities of its perfection. Can it make mistakes? If ti were to make something what reason would it have for creating imperfection in it? What reason should it have for then punishing the things it created for having those exact imperfections they were designed with?

'Perfection' and 'imperfection' as perceived by human beings are subjective terms by necessity.

Therefore, those questions are rendered moot.

 

[ranma1/2]

please stop avoidign answering, id like your opinion on what is perfect.

If you declare someting is perfect (god for many of you) id like to hear these perfecrt qualities.

 

[barney]

OK, so God is perfect, but we all know, from these discussions before, that when Ranma gets round to posting a massive list of imperfections backed by scripture, the most common response is, that its impossible to veiw Gods perfection with Human Eyes.

So God is not perfect in a human understanding. He is perfect in a different way.

To me that means he has a different quality altogether and putting human attributes to him in anything will not work.
We simply dont know these attributes then? So we're all agnostic!

 

[Abdul Fattah]

please stop avoidign answering, id like your opinion on what is perfect.

If you declare someting is perfect (god for many of you) id like to hear these perfecrt qualities.

I think most monotheistic religions agree on omniscient and omnipotent. In Islam, we have some more qualities that we are certain of:

The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence,
The Most Merciful, The Most Merciful in Actions,
The King, The Sovereign, The True and Ultimate King,
The Most Holy, The Most Pure, The Most Perfect,
The Peace and Blessing, The Source of Peace and Safety, The Most Perfect,
The Guarantor, The Self Affirming, The Granter of Security, The Affirmer of Truth,
Al-Muhaymin The Guardian, The Preserver, The Overseeing Protector,
The Almighty, The Self Sufficient, The Most Honorable,
The Powerful, The Irresistible, The Compeller, The Most Lofty, The Restorer/Improver of Affairs,
The Tremendous,
The Creator,
The Rightful,
The Fashioner of Forms,
The Ever Forgiving,
The All Compelling Subduer,
The Bestower,
The Ever Providing,
The Opener, The Victory Giver,
The All Knowing, The Omniscient,
The Restrainer, The Straightener,
The Expander, The Munificent,
The Abaser,
The Exalter,
The Giver of Honour,
The Giver of Dishonour,
The All Hearing,
The All Seeing,
The Judge, The Arbitrator,
The Utterly Just,
The Subtly Kind,
The All Aware,
The Forbearing, The Indulgent,
The Magnificent, The Infinite,
The All Forgiving,
The Grateful,
The Sublimely Exalted,
The Great,
The Preserver,
The Nourisher,
The Reckoner,
The Majestic,
The Bountiful, The Generous,
The Watchful,
The Responsive, The Answerer,
The Vast, The All Encompassing,
The Wise,
The Loving, The Kind One,
The All Glorious,
The Raiser of The Dead,
The Witness,
The Truth, The Real,
The Trustee, The Dependable,
The Strong,
The Firm, The Steadfast,
The Protecting Friend, Patron and Helper,
The All Praiseworthy,
The Accounter, The Numberer of All,
The Producer, Originator, and Initiator of All,
The Reinstater Who Brings Back All,
The Giver of Life,
The Bringer of Death, The Destroyer,
The Ever Living,
The Self Subsisting Sustainer of All,
The Perceiver, The Finder, The Unfailing,
The Illustrious, The Magnificent,
The One, The Unique, Manifestation of Unity,
The One, the All Inclusive, The Indivisible,
The Self Sufficient, The Impregnable,
The Eternally Besought of All, The Everlasting,
The All Able,
The All Determiner, The Dominant,
The Expediter, He Who Brings Forward,
The Delayer, He Who Puts Far Away,
The First,
The Last,
The Manifest, The All Victorious,
The Hidden, The All Encompassing,
The Patron,
The Self Exalted,
The Most Kind and Righteous,
The Ever Returning, Ever Relenting,
The Avenger,
The Pardoner, The Effacer of Sins,
The Compassionate, The All Pitying,
The Owner of All Sovereignty,
The Lord of Majesty and Generosity,
The Equitable, The Requiter,
The Gatherer, The Unifier,
The All Rich, The Independent,
The Enricher, The Emancipator,
The Withholder, The Shielder, the Defender,
The Distressor, The Harmer,
This attribute can only be found in hadith,
The Propitious, The Benefactor,
The Light,
The Guide,
The Incomparable, The Originator,
The Ever Enduring and Immutable,
The Heir, The Inheritor of All,
The Guide, Infallible Teacher and Knower,
The Patient, The Timeless.​

 

[جوري]

We simply dont know these attributes then? So we're all agnostic!

You don't need to quantify every last step of a composite cognitive process to reach a conclusion.. sometimes all you need to do is look at an end result and that is satisfactory to what antedated it...
If I come home and find an apple pie on the table, it is logical for me to conclude, that someone baked or bought and put it there, that it didn't appear ex nihilo from primitive parts and slowely eveolved into 'perfection' that will acquiesce to my taste buds.. whether or not there are a few burnt crusts to spoil its state thus rendering it 'imperfect' and by default denote that no being brought it there, it was either there all along in a constant state of self renewal or every few hundred years acquired a few new ingredients to be in that last and final slightly imperfect state..

to get back to your point, I can safely conclude, that where some of us are left at agnostic and satisfied with an orphan apple pie left at the table 'what could it mean?' some of us look for meaning, perhaps the one who left it there, loves us, intends good for us.. what can I personally do to show a measure of gratitude?

cheers

 

[Muezzin]

please stop avoidign answering, id like your opinion on what is perfect.

Balance.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

OK, so God is perfect, but we all know, from these discussions before, that when Ranma gets round to posting a massive list of imperfections backed by scripture, the most common response is, that its impossible to view Gods perfection with Human Eyes.

Could you point me in the right direction of that link? I haven't seen such a list in this thread so I'm thinking you meant in another topic? I'm pretty confident that any "imperfections backed by scripture" most likely come from a poor interpretation of said scripture or a poor understanding of the qualities and their implications.

So God is not perfect in a human understanding. He is perfect in a different way.

I would say, human definition of perfection is ambiguous. So it depends on the circumstances where you use it. (example, the difference between the earlier mentioned perfect espressos machine, and the perfect polyvalent machine that is mainly designed for making espressos)

To me that means he has a different quality altogether and putting human attributes to him in anything will not work.

True, only Christians believe that mankind is created in God's image. Jews have a different interpretation of genesis, and muslims don't believe the genuineness of that verse.

We simply dont know these attributes then? So we're all agnostic!

In some sense yes, with the difference that most agnostic will be agnostic regarding anything related to God, even his existence whereas theists do believe in certain qualities and the existence of God.

Why does God have to be perfect? It's not a prerequisite for a deity is it? OK, so it might have to be infinatly powerful, but that's not a reason why it cant make mistakes. The duck billed platypus springs to mind, dinosaurs etc.

Omnipotence is indeed no garuantee against making mistakes, but if you add omniscience to it that's a whole different thing. If you know everything there's nothing that you couldn't have anticipated.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

If you mean the second interpretation, that statement does not make sense.

Perhaps it does. If a being needs nothing, why does it need to exist? It's a valid question really..
A perfect being would either remain totally unchanged for eternity, doing absolutely nothing, or not exist at all.
That's my human intepretation..
:-[

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Perhaps it does. If a being needs nothing, why does it need to exist? It's a valid question really..
A perfect being would either remain totally unchanged for eternity, doing absolutely nothing, or not exist at all.
That's my human intepretation..
:-[

1. Who says that one needs to exist in order to exist?
2. Perfection can include the possibility to change. For example, the perfect espresso machine might enable to choose whether you like a regular or extra strong. In other words perfection is not the same as rigid. It could be a perfect dynamic state rather then a perfect static state.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

1. Who says that one needs to exist in order to exist?
2. Perfection can include the possibility to change. For example, the perfect espresso machine might enable to choose whether you like a regular or extra strong. In other words perfection is not the same as rigid. It could be a perfect dynamic state rather then a perfect static state.

1. er lol... I don't quite get it, could you elaborate please.
2. well, why would a perfect being need change if it's perfect.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

1. er lol... I don't quite get it, could you elaborate please.

Well you assumed that in order to exist, you first "need" to exist. Why couldn't anything just exist, without the necessity to exist?

2. well, why would a perfect being need change if it's perfect.

What if the ability to change certain things is what makes it perfect in the first place? As an example, consider the Islamic rule about pork.

If the rule would say: "Pork is forbidden." That would be a static rule. Its ruling is always the same.

However the rule is: "Pork is forbidden, except when there is no other alternative to eat, and one doesn't transgress in it." That is a dynamic rule, because is allows for different rulings in different circumstances. However these changes aren't actually changes to the rule it self, they are included into the very rule themselves. In analogy, A perfect deity might have the capability to change, without making himself less perfect, on the assumption that these changes are within the dynamics of his being.

 

[ranma1/2]

It seems to me that if there is need to change such as to change a cup of coffee then you are adding or subtracting from it and thus its imperfect.

the perfect cup of coffee would always me just what you need. (thus perfect)

 

[Muezzin]

It seems to me that if there is need to change such as to change a cup of coffee then you are adding or subtracting from it and thus its imperfect.

the perfect cup of coffee would always me just what you need. (thus perfect)

Your idea of a perfect cup of coffee would probably differ from someone else's. Thus, perfection is subjective. So we can't truly know it in its objective sense. I do like the Eastern conceps of balance, Yin ang Yang etc in that regard. That's really the closest we'll ever get to some sort of objective view of 'perfection', if there is such a thing.

Perhaps it does. If a being needs nothing, why does it need to exist?

One doesn't need to exist, one just does. If a being doesn't exist, it ceases to be a being. It becomes nothing. Nothingness is not perfection or imperfection, it is simply the absence of something. Unless of course you're seeking to undermine theism, in which case, this is a truly novel argument. Somewhat insane, but novel.

It's a valid question really..
A perfect being would either remain totally unchanged for eternity, doing absolutely nothing, or not exist at all.
That's my human intepretation..
:-[

Eh? If it doesn't even exist, it can't be perfect or imperfect, since it doesn't exist. Are you saying God would commit cosmic suicide or something?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

It seems to me that if there is need to change such as to change a cup of coffee then you are adding or subtracting from it and thus its imperfect.

the perfect cup of coffee would always me just what you need. (thus perfect)

What if one person likes it with sugar whereas the other likes it with milk or one wants it extra strong and the other just regular. To me a perfect espresso machine would allow you to choose which way you want it.

 

[snakelegs]

It seems to me that if there is need to change such as to change a cup of coffee then you are adding or subtracting from it and thus its imperfect.

the perfect cup of coffee would always me just what you need. (thus perfect)

what you have given is merely your concept of a perfect cup of coffee.
i could just as well claim that the perfect cup of coffee is the one that requires a relationship of engagement and participation, by the drinker changing it to suit his individual taste, so that he is more than a passive consumer.
i don't think perfection exists as an absolute.