What is the Islamic concept of Knowledge?

[snakelegs]

A man once approached imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and exclaimed that he has no knowledge at all, but in return imam Ahmad humbly replied "but i have its fruits, i have the taqwa of Allah".

if you can read one paragraph of islamic text and gain such deep rooted fear of Allah then you have the knowledge (in my understanding), why? because! your depth of understanding and wisdom is such that you managed to gain the essence of whats being said and didnt have to go around memorising thousands of other scriptures.

i hope that makes sense...

yes, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[rubiesand]

the implications of all this have not, in my opinion, even begun to sink in. (i see that here in a lot of the stuff atheists write).

Yeah I thought the same. We can hope that it will eventually work its way through society just as the old views of the world did, and how that will change everything is difficult to imagine but I think Muslims can anticipate that time with excitement. However, there is no room for Muslims to be complacent.

 

[snakelegs]

Yes it is.

Related by Ibn Adee (2/207)m Abu Nu’aym in ‘Akhbaar Asbahaan’ and others via many routes of narration, and all of them adding the words "for indeed seeking knowledge is an obligatory duty upon all Muslims."

Ibn al-Jawzee mentions this and then quotes Ibn Hibbaan saying, "invalid/rejected, it has no basis" ‘al-Mawdoo’aat’ (1/215)]

Adh-Dhahabee also endorsed the above words of Ibn Hibbaan, [‘Tarteeb al-Mawdoo’aat’ of Adh-Dhahabee (pg. 52 no. 111)] and likewise as-Sakhaawee [‘Maqaasid al-Hasanah’ (pg. 86 no. 125)]

Al-Albaanee declares this hadeeth to be mawdoo (fabricated) [‘Da’eef al-Jaami as-Sagheer’ (no’s 1005-1006)]

In summary, the above hadeeth is related by a group of trustworthy narrators without the words "even if it be to China" and a few narrators who are deemed weak; liars; abandoned by the scholars narrate this additional wording. So the Ahaadeeth with the additional wording is fabricated, but without is hasan (good). [See ‘Silsilah ad-Da’eefah’ (1/600 no. 416) for detail.]

ok but it still shows that knowledge is much valued in islam, china or no china. (i kinda liked the china part...)
this is one of the things i like about islam - the high value given to knowledge.
in summary, i think it would be safe to say that knowledge in islam is a broader concept than in the secular world, because it includes knowledge of the unseen as well as the seen? so for example, when the muslim studies biology or chemistry, it too is a form of worship. some of the quotes in this thread also illustrate this.
as i said, i have very little formal education and whatever i have learned has been on my own. but i have found that the more i learned, the more in awe i became and this is one of the main things that has led me to believe in god, whereas most of my life, i didn't concern myself with whether or not god existed.
i'm sorry if i've gone blahblahblah too much in this thread. :-[
thanks, all. syilla - i hope to get to your articles tomorrow.
does anyone have comments on the last part of the article from the link given by rubiesand that i pasted?

 

[Musalmaan]

also some explain knowledge as "to know what to do at the present time."

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

ok but it still shows that knowledge is much valued in islam, china or no china. (i kinda liked the china part...)
this is one of the things i like about islam - the high value given to knowledge.
in summary, i think it would be safe to say that knowledge in islam is a broader concept than in the secular world, because it includes knowledge of the unseen as well as the seen? so for example, when the muslim studies biology or chemistry, it too is a form of worship. some of the quotes in this thread also illustrate this.
as i said, i have very little formal education and whatever i have learned has been on my own. but i have found that the more i learned, the more in awe i became and this is one of the main things that has led me to believe in god, whereas most of my life, i didn't concern myself with whether or not god existed.
i'm sorry if i've gone blahblahblah too much in this thread. :-[
thanks, all. syilla - i hope to get to your articles tomorrow.
does anyone have comments on the last part of the article from the link given by rubiesand that i pasted?

Hi,

It's obvious that article was written by a modernist, though he/she criticises modernists it is clear that they are trying to modernise Islam. What is the benefit of saying one thing and doing something else?

What is needed now is a new growth of Islam completely distinct from any discrete form that Islam has taken in the past. We have to bring out a new growth of Islam from the very texture of our own time, an expression of Islam that will embrace and encompass and absorb and transform the classical tradition of Greece and the European tradition I have been talking about which has now reached to the point where it is once more potentially open to Divine Guidance.

We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunna. (?!!!) This would suggest that Allah's Book is a historical document, something from the distant past and that the Sunna was like an ancient suit of armour. The Qur'an is the uncreated word of Allah, outside space and time. We must rediscover the ayats in the present, reflect on them anew, seek out their light and energy and make them our springboard for the re-establishment of Allah's guidance. The Sunna is the archetypal record of how human perfection, in the person of the Prophet, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallam, turned divine guidance into a living reality and how he and his Companions, radiya'llahu 'anhum ajma'in, transformed themselves and their situation. To follow the Sunna, we must discover something of the qualities of the Prophet in ourselves, transform ourselves in the way the Companions did, transform our situation as they did theirs. In other words, we must go forwards to the Book and Sunna, not back to them. The people of our time need Islam freshly cooked, not reheated. We must have the thing itself not an imitation. Nothing else will do.

I would say that was almost completely false in its entirety. The only thing I liked about that piece was when the author said the Qur'an isn't created. At least he/she has one of the fundamentals.

Where the author says 'We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunnah', I reiterate the words of 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood;

"Follow and do not innovate, for you have been given that which is sufficient and every innovation is misguidance." Reported by Abu Khaithamah in Kitaab Ul-'Ilm (no. 540) and declared saheeh by Shaikh al-Albaanee.

Al-'Irbaad ibn Saariyah, , reports that the Prophet said, ".... I have left you upon clear guidance. Its night is like its day. No one deviates from it after me except that he is destroyed." Reported by Ahmad, Ibn Maajah (no. 43) and al-Haakim. It is declared saheeh by Shaikh al-Albaanee in as-Saheehah (no. 937).

Therefore whatever spiritual 'revolution' this character wants to create, it is Baatil. We follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah upon the understanding of the first three generations of Muslims (the salaf), since Allah's Messenger (SAW) stated that they are the best generation.

Shaykh al-Barbaharee (D. 329H Rahimahullah) Also states: May Allah have mercy upon you. Know that the Religion is what came from Allaah, the Blessed and the Most High. It is not something left to the intellect and opinions of men. Knowledge of it is what comes from Allaah and His Messenger, so do not follow anything based upon your desires and so deviate away from the Religion and leave Islam. There will be no excuse for you since Allaah's Messenger explained the Sunnah to his Ummah and made it clear to his Companions and they are the Jamaa'ah and they are the Main Body, and the Main Body is the truth and its followers.

 

[rubiesand]

It's obvious that article was written by a modernist, though he/she criticises modernists it is clear that they are trying to modernise Islam.

Assalamu alaikum sister,

I would disagree with you here. It is not a call to modernism. He is saying that Modernism has run its course and is now all but dead, and even if it wasn't it is still incompatible with Islam. He is calling for a transformation of Muslims in the light of the Quran and Sunnah, as the early Muslims were transformed, but in doing that we cannot pretend that we can be exactly the same as the early generation. It's not about imitating our noble ancestors but letting Islam work on us directly. As he says, Islam is not a structure that we fit ourselves into, but 'an organic growth pattern for human society'.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Assalamu alaikum sister,

I would disagree with you here. It is not a call to modernism. He is saying that Modernism has run its course and is now all but dead, and even if it wasn't it is still incompatible with Islam.

:wasalamex ukhtee

This contradicts his saying, 'We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunnah'. If we cannot go back to this, then what can we go back to?

He is calling for a transformation of Muslims in the light of the Quran and Sunnah, as the early Muslims were transformed, but in doing that we cannot pretend that we can be exactly the same as the early generation. It's not about imitating our noble ancestors but letting Islam work on us directly. As he says, Islam is not a structure that we fit ourselves into, but 'an organic growth pattern for human society'.

So why did he say we cannot go back to the Qur'an and Sunnah? He's using a lot of euphemisms. It's obvious what the underlying intention is.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

also some explain knowledge as "to know what to do at the present time."

this perfectly defines imam abu hanifa, rahmatullah alaih, always prepared for everything subhanaAllah

 

[rubiesand]

So why did he say we cannot go back to the Qur'an and Sunnah?

I hear you sister, but what i get from his article is that if we say that we should go back to the Quran and Sunnah we are really saying that they are set in the past, but actually they are not. They are for all times until Yawm ad Din.

 

[snakelegs]

thanks for sharing your thoughts on the article.
i sort of took it that modern science - physics specifically - has validated the islamic belief that there is no division between the material and non-material. (even though most have yet to catch on). muslims who sought education in the west had come to accept this false dichotomy (in which the spiritual was regarded as inferior to the material) and now it is proven false by science itself.
the rest i understood the way rubiesand did.

 

[Musalmaan]

knowledge is to know what our Rabb wants from us.

 

[snakelegs]

this makes sense, of course.
my question was about those muslims who say a person doesn't need what they refer to as "secular" education - to be given skills to make a living. i wanted clarification to an earlier post.

 

[syilla]

this makes sense, of course.
my question was about those muslims who say a person doesn't need what they refer to as "secular" education - to be given skills to make a living. i wanted clarification to an earlier post.

This is where the muslims have to define which ilm (knowledge) that is useful and which is useless.

As narrated from the Holy Prophet (SAWS) that:

Ask God for useful knowledge, and seek refuge in God from useless knowledge. [4]

4. Ibn Majah, op.cit., Sec. 34, No. 3843.

Among the great supplications reported from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is his saying “and I seek refuge with You from useless knowledge” (At-Tabarani)

In another hadith he stated “Some forms of knowledge are ignorance.” [3]

[3] Narrated by Abu Dawud 5012

Because as you know some ilm is unneccessary and only for the benefit of mankind (wealth and enjoyment) and some can cause destruction to the humankind.

Thats why some scholars said knowledge of music are useless.

And i also need a clarification whether it is true that useless knowledge is one the punishment of the grave.

 

[snakelegs]

This is where the muslims have to define which ilm (knowledge) that is useful and which is useless.

As narrated from the Holy Prophet (SAWS) that:

Ask God for useful knowledge, and seek refuge in God from useless knowledge. [4]

4. Ibn Majah, op.cit., Sec. 34, No. 3843.

Because as you know some ilm is unneccessary and only for the benefit of mankind (wealth and enjoyment) and some can cause destruction to the humankind.

Thats why some scholars said knowledge of music are useless.

And i also need a clarification whether it is true that useless knowledge is one the punishment of the grave.

in the end, it is common sense. actually this is what i thought, but that one post made me wonder.
i confess i have not yet read the 1st link you provided but i haven't forgotten either - just haven't has enough time and peace and quiet to concentrate.
i am not very knowledgeable but a great deal of the knowledge i have gained has served to cause me to believe in god. (i used to be neutral on whether or not god existed).

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I hear you sister, but what i get from his article is that if we say that we should go back to the Quran and Sunnah we are really saying that they are set in the past, but actually they are not. They are for all times until Yawm ad Din.

:salamext:

Again, if you look at that extract in it's entirety, a different picture is painted.

What is needed now is a new growth of Islam completely distinct from any discrete form that Islam has taken in the past

.

A new growth of Islam, that is completely distinct from any form of Islam in the past?! No, we follow Islam the same way the Prophet (SAW), the companions and the pious successors followed Islam. To suggest that we need a 'new growth of Islam' is to imply that the Islam that the Prophet (SAW) came with is not perfect and universal. And that is obviously baatil.

The saying, 'We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunna' Is explained by the following words from the article:

We must rediscover the ayats in the present, reflect on them anew, seek out their light and energy and make them our springboard for the re-establishment of Allah's guidance.

This is a mistake. We understand the ayaat the way they were always understood. The Qur'an is explained by the Sunnah, and the Sunnah is explained by the consensus of the pious successors. And whoever has left the sunnah, it is as if he has left Islam. Because Islam and the Sunnah are synonomous.

To follow the Sunna, we must discover something of the qualities of the Prophet in ourselves, transform ourselves in the way the Companions did, transform our situation as they did theirs.

The companions never 'transformed' anything. Rather they immitated the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) as perectly as they could, and verily they are the best of generations - as stated by the Prophet (SAW).

Umm ad-Darda' said: "One day Abud-Darda' came in angry, I asked him, "What was the problem?' he said 'I recognised nothing of people's practices which belong to Muhammad salAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam except that they pray togther' " Bukhari.

Abdullah ibn Mas'ood said "Verily, we emulate and do not initiate, and we folllow and do not innovate." Reported by al-Laalikaa'ee in Usoolul-I'tiqaad, 1/189.

Abu Bakr as-Sideeq said, "Indeed, I am a follower and not an innovator." Reported in Kitaabus-Sifaat of Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisee in the chapter 'Fee Fadaa'ilil-Ittibaa' and it is taken from the long khutbah of Abu Bakr after the pledge of alleigance, refer to At-Tareekh.

'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood said, after encountering a people who committing a bid'ah, "Count your sins and I guarantee that none of your good deeds will be lost. Woe to you, O Ummah of Muhammad! How fast is your distruction. The companions of the Prophet are still around, and his clothes are not warn out yet (meaning the Prophet's) and his utensils are not broken yet. By the One in Whose hand is my life, you are either following a religion better than the deen of Muhammad, or charging into a gate of deviation.' They said, 'By Allah, O Abu Abdurrahman, we only intended to do good.' He said 'How many who intend to do good, but never accomplish it. The Messenger of Allah (SAW) told us that there are some people who read the Qur'an but it never passes beyond their throats. By Allah, the majority of you people belong to those people.' Then he left them. Amt ibn Salamah commented, "We saw the majority of those people fighting against us with the Khawarij in the battle of Nahrawan." Ad-Daarimee.

In other words, we must go forwards to the Book and Sunna, not back to them. The people of our time need Islam freshly cooked, not reheated. We must have the thing itself not an imitation.

I wish he/she would stop speaking about Islam like it's some kind of art piece that can be played around with. Islam is a perfect system that was revealed by Allah, the All Mighty and the All Wise. Qiyaas (analogy) is only used after these three bases of the religion:

• The Qur'an
• The Sunnah
• The consensus of the salaf

And even then, the analogy is thrown against the wall if it contradicts something in the sharee'ah.

This lecture addresses this issue:

Explanation of the Creed by Imam Barbaharee (Arabic with english translation)

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Imaam Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) said:

"Adhere to the Athaar (narrations) and the Tareeqah (way) of the Salaf and beware of newly invented matters, for all of it is innovation."
Reported by As-Suyootee in Sawn al-Mantaq Wal -Kalaam, p. 32.