What is the meaning of "I bear witness"?

[aadil77]

Unlike the Quran, most of the Hindu scriptures are in the form of poetry, including the Vedas. Hindus have always known that much of it is not to be taken merely literally but the spirit behind the expressions is to be grasped. Quran, on the other hand, has to be taken literally. Events like the splitting of the moon, the flowing of water from the fingers Mohammad and his satisfying the thirst of a whole army with that water, and the grieving of the dry wooden pole–against which the Prophet used to lean while delivering sermons–because of its separation from him, and its being heard by a whole congregation etc. are taken literally by Muslims and consider them miracles.

these miracles are more believable than a God who manages to get his head chopped off, then has to replace it with an elephant's. Or gods with six arms or......

sorry mate, the quran is taken literally as there is confirmed logic and fact behind all of it

 

[جوري]

I think you have touched on the core of the lack (as I see it) in Islam.

what does core of the lack mean?

Not a single Muslim, as you say, has ever claimed to have seen God.

Have Hindus seen him? have you seen him? and do you have prove of that?

This is inevitable because Islam believes that God the Creator is separate from his creation.

Indeed.. the creator is seprate from his creation, not bound by their physical laws!
All that is in creation is doomed to die.. of God were part of the creation, he too is doomed to die.. this is akin to christianity, which brings me to another question, why not christianity over hindusim, and what does the world do, when its God has died?

This is not the case in Hinduism. Hinduism at its core espouses the fact that the Creator and his creation are not separate.

One of the many reasons Hinduism fails, along of course with reveling in cow and mouse defecate and micturate!
And again, once mankind is espoused with their creator, the creator is doomed to die upon the individual's death!

Therefore in Islam the destiny of man is to be a slave of Allah whereas in Hinduism man’s destiny is to discover the divine in him.

What does man gain by discovering what is divine in him? does that make hindus immortal? are you not subject to the laws that govern the rest of humanity? once a hindu dies, does God/the divine die along with him? how is Hindusim better than scientology.. very widely popular in the fairy tale dept. albeit it a bit more modern than hindusim!

Hinduism is full of descriptions of God because Hindus who have realized the divine have the freedom to express the divine in various ways.

I have seen the description of the 'divine' Gods that have lost their heads and bear elephant heads instead, hardly establishes divinity.. rather a sort of creepy fairy tale amongst many of the many limbed gods to send little children affright

In Islam the question of expressing the divine does not arise, there is only praise of Allah, who created man to test his loyalty.

How do you know it doesn't arise? Allah swt has described himself in his 99 names and certainly all throughout the Quran... he certainly created man with free will.. as you can see, here you are free to worship a cow or the elephant gansesh in lieu of the creator of the universe!

For the simple reason, to the best of my knowledge, I am not aware of anything except a human who can respond like a human.

Why would a human feel the need to worship another human or a god in human form?

I know you very much exist as a human just like me and therefore I strive to be very careful not to hurt your sensitivity while at the same time trying to get across my feelings anyhow. These are all in the realm of direct experience.

You don't see her, she maybe a computer generated reply, maybe she is a 67 year old man feigning to be a Muslim woman? maybe she is ganesh.. can you prove she isn't any of those just mentioned?

Hinduism is based on the expressions of experiences of man. Hinduism does not claim that its scriptures are written by a God sitting in heaven and sent as guidance for mankind.

great.. Why would anyone want to waste their life on fairy tales then? I think it better to simply be an atheist.. I don't see why anyone would want to waste their time on man made fairy tales? why not simply sign for a Yoga course?

Unlike the Quran, most of the Hindu scriptures are in the form of poetry, including the Vedas.

This tells me that you have never read the Quran.. the Quran in its entirety reads like a beautiful poem.. but an accurate one..that flows in style, context, syntax, even though the verses of suras were revealed 22 years apart.. What poet could possible pick up exactly where he left off, and have it make sense.. with no two suras reading alike?

Hindus have always known that much of it is not to be taken merely literally but the spirit behind the expressions is to be grasped.

Why would hinduism be superior then to les fleurs du mal if we are merely taking expressions.. what is there to be grasped of a God coming home suspecting his goddess has cheated on him to chop of her son's head, and instead of screwing his newly severed head on, they reach for an elephant's head.. what is the moral to that story?

Quran, on the other hand, has to be taken literally. Events like the splitting of the moon, the flowing of water from the fingers Mohammad and his satisfying the thirst of a whole army with that water, and the grieving of the dry wooden pole–against which the Prophet used to lean while delivering sermons–because of its separation from him, and its being heard by a whole congregation etc. are taken literally by Muslims and consider them miracles.

some things are indeed literal, others are allegorical!

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}​

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.



try doing a little research before you type!

cheers

 

[Muezzin]

In the recitation of Shahada, Muslims bear witness that Allah is the only god on the basis of their faith and not experience. However, the word ‘witness’, as applicable in the Shariat, does not dilute the objectivity of witnessing by permitting the witness to qualify himself as witness on the basis of his having a subjective opinion of what he claims to have witnessed. In the case of rape, for example, the witness should have witnessed the actual penetration. Any subjective opinion about the character of the rapist would not suffice as witnessing. Would anyone please quote an authoritative source in Islam to indicate that to believe is equivalent to witnessing?

Is there any particular reason you used rape as an example?

Cynicism aside (well, most of it), I do believe you're making a very stretchy semantic argument here. 'I bear witness' in this context simply has the meaning 'I believe and know to be true'. All these observations about assumptions as to character are irrelevant in this case, because in this case the statement is not about the subject's activties, but rather the existence and status of the subjects themselves.

To put it another way, your argument about character assumptions would work in a statement like 'I bear witness that Jimmy ate all the cookies because he always smells of dough', but would not work for 'I bear witness that Jimmy exists and is my employee'.

 

[K.Venugopal]

what does core of the lack mean?

The core of the lack or error in Islam (according to me) is Islam’s teaching that Allah is separate from His creation.

Have Hindus seen him? have you seen him? and do you have prove of that?

What or whom you call Allah and what Hindus have expressed variously is nothing other than LIFE itself. Life is indivisible and therefore our life and Allah’s life are the same. The only difference is that our life is contained in a form which is ephemeral while Allah’s life, without form, is eternal. Allah the formless is life itself, life in totality. The qualities of life are that it is eternal, it is fully conscious and it is joyous. When we transcend the limitations of our physical body, we are in the state of Godhood. The way to achieve it is meditation. Hinduism is full of lore of people who have achieved this state of Godhood. There is a person in India named Satya Sai Baba. Millions across the globe believe he is God.

Indeed.. the creator is seprate from his creation, not bound by their physical laws! All that is in creation is doomed to die.. of God were part of the creation, he too is doomed to die.. this is akin to christianity, which brings me to another question, why not christianity over hindusim, and what does the world do, when its God has died?

Can life die? Do we die? Hinduism teaches that death only means discarding of our physical body. Our soul, or our essence, takes on another physical body and thus we are reborn. We keep on ‘dying and being born again’ till we finally awake to our true self and we become one with God.

The Creator is part of his creation. Creation is but the form the formless Creator takes. Hinduism, strictly speaking, does not use the word Creator. It says that God manifests.

One of the many reasons Hinduism fails,

I do not know how you have concluded that Hinduism has failed. Hinduism has existed long before Islam and continues to exist without any sign of going extinct, Alhamdulillah!

along of course with reveling in cow and mouse defecate and micturate!

All creation is divine and worship-worthy, because their essence is none other than God or Allah in Arabic. Man is often trapped in a like-dislike dichotomy, but everything has its place in creation. Cow-dung might not be our idea of a clean environment, but it has its usefulness, for example, as an ingredient in medicines.

And again, once mankind is espoused with their creator, the creator is doomed to die upon the individual's death!

In describing ourselves, we all say, “I”, so and so. When I introduce myself as Venu, what would you recognize as Venu? You recognize my human form, of course. But when you see me many years later and are shocked that I have lost my limbs, I would not appear to you as anyone less than your friend Venu and you commiserate the tragedy I have been through. I still remain Venu though physically I am less. One day you receive information that I have died. You rush to my house to condole my death. You see me lying in the coffin and you say, Venu has left us forever, may Allah bless his soul. What if someone were to ask you, what do you mean Venu has left us, isn’t he lying in the coffin? He has not gone anywhere. You would only say, that’s Venu’s mortal remains. So even though you know I have died, you know the body being cremated is just that, Venu’s body. That which survives my body is popularly called “soul”. It is actually nothing other than life. Life never dies. It is eternal. Thus where is my death? And if I do not die, how can God die?

What does man gain by discovering what is divine in him? does that make hindus immortal? are you not subject to the laws that govern the rest of humanity? once a hindu dies, does God/the divine die along with him? how is Hindusim better than scientology.. very widely popular in the fairy tale dept. albeit it a bit more modern than hindusim!

It is natural for man to seek the divine in him. It is also natural for man to seek the divine in the world outside of him. Any seeking of the divine outside of man leads to idol worship. This is true of Islam also. Only when man discovers that he is what he has always been searching does the search end. We would then realize that we have always been immortal, only we missed it, being entangled with the body. I do not know much about scientology, so I won’t be able to comment on it.

I have seen the description of the 'divine' Gods that have lost their heads and bear elephant heads instead, hardly establishes divinity.. rather a sort of creepy fairy tale amongst many of the many limbed gods to send little children affright

The fantastic stories you hear about Hindu Gods are all about the happenings in the plane of Gods. If should not be difficult for Muslims to accept the plane of gods, because Muslims know about Allah and His world of angels.

How do you know it doesn't arise? Allah swt has described himself in his 99 names and certainly all throughout the Quran... he certainly created man with free will.. as you can see, here you are free to worship a cow or the elephant gansesh in lieu of the creator of the universe!

How is it that Islam has given me the freedom to worship my elephant God when my elephant God existed long before Islam was born in the Middle Ages in Middle-East through Mohammad?

Why would a human feel the need to worship another human or a god in human form?

Everything is worship-worthy if we see the divine in it. Men having realized their divinity are doubly worship-worthy because such divinities reach out to us with their love.

You don't see her, she maybe a computer generated reply, maybe she is a 67 year old man feigning to be a Muslim woman? maybe she is ganesh.. can you prove she isn't any of those just mentioned?

In saying I am communicating with a person, I am unlikely to be wrong. But if I discover that I have been communicating with a computer generated entity, I suppose I will loose all interest in continuing to communicate, unless I treat the communication as a form of entertainment or I have human audiences listening in. We are able to communicate with God and God with us only because there is something of God within us. If we realize that God is actually a machine, then all we would want is to somehow gain control of the machine called God or at least manipulate it. Because this is what we have been doing with the machines we have created. Islam portrays Allah as being full of human qualities, like kindness, knowledgeable, understanding, merciful, benign, strict etc. Allah is certainly not a machine. Allah is us!

great.. Why would anyone want to waste their life on fairy tales then? I think it better to simply be an atheist.. I don't see why anyone would want to waste their time on man made fairy tales? why not simply sign for a Yoga course?

Fairy tales are a great part of human heritage. They are never a waste in children’s lives. They open up children’s imagination. I am happy you think signing up for a Yoga course is not a waste of time. Yoga is at the heart of Hinduism. Its source is the Vedas. Has the Quran contributed anything to mankind comparable to Yoga?

This tells me that you have never read the Quran.. the Quran in its entirety reads like a beautiful poem.. but an accurate one..that flows in style, context, syntax, even though the verses of suras were revealed 22 years apart.. What poet could possible pick up exactly where he left off, and have it make sense. with no two suras reading alike?

You might say Quran is a poem. But Allah did not think so. He says in the Quran: 069.041 It is not poet's speech but only a few of you have faith. Moreover, at the time of the Quran, to call a person a poet was derogatory. Mohammad’s enemies called him a magician, a poet, a madman and an epileptic.

Why would hinduism be superior then to les fleurs du mal if we are merely taking expressions..

But look at who are expressing – God realized men. Only then would it come under the category of scriptures.

what is there to be grasped of a God coming home suspecting his goddess has cheated on him to chop of her son's head, and instead of screwing his newly severed head on, they reach for an elephant's head.. what is the moral to that story?

As I told earlier, these are the stories (or history) of the worlds of Gods. Remember Allah also has such a world to which we are not much privy – the world where he had Satan and continues to reside with his angles, where he has his throne. Incidentally, it is said that there is much treasure under the throne of Allah but the keys are only with poets!

some things are indeed literal, others are allegorical!

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}​

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. try doing a little research before you type!

Can you please tell me what in the Quran is literal and what is allegorical? I have all along assumed that all Quran is literal. (Though I have met a Sufi who told me otherwise. However, I thought the Sufi could see it allegorical as he was well-versed in Hinduism.) The Vedas, I have assumed on the other hand, are all allegorical. (In the sense that it has hidden spiritual meanings.)

 

[K.Venugopal]

Is there any particular reason you used rape as an example?

I was contrasting the use of the word ‘witness’ in the Shahada and as used in the Shariat. It is argued that in the Shahada ‘to bear witness’ means to declare one’s faith. I wished to point out that it does not mean anything less in the Shariat (and in over 200 places in the Quran) than actual bearing of witness. I just gave the rape example because it was at hand while I was writing.

Cynicism aside (well, most of it), I do believe you're making a very stretchy semantic argument here. 'I bear witness' in this context simply has the meaning 'I believe and know to be true'. All these observations about assumptions as to character are irrelevant in this case, because in this case the statement is not about the subject's activties, but rather the existence and status of the subjects themselves.

To put it another way, your argument about character assumptions would work in a statement like 'I bear witness that Jimmy ate all the cookies because he always smells of dough', but would not work for 'I bear witness that Jimmy exists and is my employee'.

The phrase ‘I bear witness’ in your sentence 'I bear witness that Jimmy ate all the cookies because he always smells of dough' is out of place. It would be logical only if the phrase is, say, “I suppose”. Your second sentence 'I bear witness that Jimmy exists and is my employee' is perfectly logical.

Since, as many members pointed out in this thread, the dictionaries say that ‘witness’ also means an expression of faith, I do not want to belabour the point further. Otherwise Sister Skye Ephémérine will once more exclaim that I have reading impediment!

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Arabic is understood in Arabic and not in English. Secondly, in Arabic, a word will have different meanings depending on where it is used in the sentence and how it is used. So إشهد in this case means:

In Lisaan Al-A'rab: " Ashad as in the statement of saying " Ashadu Anna La Illaha Illa Allah" means : I know and acknowledge that ....".

In Taaj Al-A'rous: " Saying Shahidt ( I witnessed) comes in two meaning: a) acknowledging and having the knowledge about something b) a phrase of swearing like saying Ashadu billah which means: I swear by Allah..."
​

So, for the witnessing part of this word in this sentence, is understood as follows:

I witness (know and acknowledge) that Allah exists through the signs of his creatures that no one else can create so I know for sure that He is the only Diety.
​

Next, in taking the definition of the word إشهد, then it is more comprehensive in its meaning because it includes 'believing', 'witnessing' and 'knowing'. This has been explained above. Therefore, this word إشهد is more suitable in affirming the belief of Tawheed.

And really, these points are enough to expose the weakness of your argument. But to further show its inability: the word إشهد is better than the suggestions you suggested ("I believe" etc) as it covers what is following in the sentence with seriousness and certainty. Since the Shahada in Islaam is a matter of utmost seriousness, it is only befitting that the word إشهد is used rather anything else. Simple belief can be wrong when it has false foundations, and simply witnessing can also be wrong due to other factors such as knowledge gained in the future. Thus, gathering belief in Allaah's Oneness, along with witnessing the evidences that prove His Oneness results in acknowledging and knowing based upon firm knowledge that only He is worthy of worship. Therefore, had there been any other word used here other than إشهد, then the meaning would not have been as complete, as deep, and as thorough as it is with إشهد.

Really, it is a shame when people cannot bring credible questions for worthy discussions, but have to resort to wasting other people's time by discussing the semantics of a language, and that too of a language that they don't even understand! How can an individual ever succeed in making his point, when the point he is making stems from an ignorant base?!

{And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book, Twisting his neck [in arrogance] to mislead from the way of Allah.}[al-Hajj; 8-9]

 

[جوري]

The core of the lack or error in Islam (according to me) is Islam’s teaching that Allah is separate from His creation.

You'll forgive me if I sound brusque.. but according to you should carry weight because?

What or whom you call Allah and what Hindus have expressed variously is nothing other than LIFE itself.

Does life not cease?

Life is indivisible and therefore our life and Allah’s life are the same.

so we are all Gods?.. if that is the case.. why choose to worship at all?

The only difference is that our life is contained in a form which is ephemeral while Allah’s life, without form, is eternal.

What method have you used to reach that distinction?

Allah the formless is life itself, life in totality.

Life ends with expiry of the Organic body.. thus if Allah is life itself, he too shall die!
The measurment of life can only be defined by its contrast to death.. and since everything living shall die. then so too shall your god!

The qualities of life are that it is eternal, it is fully conscious and it is joyous.

That is a wonderful dream.. but I assure you, you can and will die, as well everything else in creation-- no one has escaped death yet!

When we transcend the limitations of our physical body, we are in the state of Godhood. The way to achieve it is meditation. Hinduism is full of lore of people who have achieved this state of Godhood. There is a person in India named Satya Sai Baba. Millions across the globe believe he is God.

What a sad thing indeed.. this desire to believe, so one reaches for a lesser god, as it makes it more comprehensible.. yet subjets gods to the same fate we all suffer.. I tell you, your satya baba, should perform some miracles on day time TV.. I am sure it will prove amusing!

Can life die? Do we die? Hinduism teaches that death only means discarding of our physical body. Our soul, or our essence, takes on another physical body and thus we are reborn. We keep on ‘dying and being born again’ till we finally awake to our true self and we become one with God.

You have no proof of that.. least of which a decipherable book with a divine origin.. Thus what you impart are the fairly tales of men!

The Creator is part of his creation. Creation is but the form the formless Creator takes. Hinduism, strictly speaking, does not use the word Creator. It says that God manifests.

I see that we go around in circles here... a god that is a part of his creation is a god that dies, one that isn't worthy of worship, for he is no more or less than those he created.. again akin to christianity somewhat!
in which case I say, why not christianity over hinduism.. is it a mere age thing?

I do not know how you have concluded that Hinduism has failed. Hinduism has existed long before Islam and continues to exist without any sign of going extinct, Alhamdulillah!

existence doesn't mean success, nor does it grant one salavtion into the right path.. Zoroastrianism is even older than hindusim, and exists today.. people want to hold on to the absurd beliefs because that is how they found their elders, but not because it is the truth..

2:170 But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their reason at all, and were devoid of all guidance?

All creation is divine and worship-worthy, because their essence is none other than God or Allah in Arabic. Man is often trapped in a like-dislike dichotomy, but everything has its place in creation. Cow-dung might not be our idea of a clean environment, but it has its usefulness, for example, as an ingredient in medicines.

Man is only as elevated as he thinks himself.. if he believes he is only worthy to revel in cow dung then so be it.. Allah SWT has chosen for us that which is better..

In describing ourselves, we all say, “I”, so and so. When I introduce myself as Venu, what would you recognize as Venu? You recognize my human form, of course. But when you see me many years later and are shocked that I have lost my limbs, I would not appear to you as anyone less than your friend Venu and you commiserate the tragedy I have been through. I still remain Venu though physically I am less. One day you receive information that I have died. You rush to my house to condole my death. You see me lying in the coffin and you say, Venu has left us forever, may Allah bless his soul. What if someone were to ask you, what do you mean Venu has left us, isn’t he lying in the coffin? He has not gone anywhere. You would only say, that’s Venu’s mortal remains. So even though you know I have died, you know the body being cremated is just that, Venu’s body. That which survives my body is popularly called “soul”. It is actually nothing other than life. Life never dies. It is eternal. Thus where is my death? And if I do not die, how can God die?


It is natural for man to seek the divine in him. It is also natural for man to seek the divine in the world outside of him. Any seeking of the divine outside of man leads to idol worship. This is true of Islam also. Only when man discovers that he is what he has always been searching does the search end. We would then realize that we have always been immortal, only we missed it, being entangled with the body. I do not know much about scientology, so I won’t be able to comment on it.


The fantastic stories you hear about Hindu Gods are all about the happenings in the plane of Gods. If should not be difficult for Muslims to accept the plane of gods, because Muslims know about Allah and His world of angels.



How is it that Islam has given me the freedom to worship my elephant God when my elephant God existed long before Islam was born in the Middle Ages in Middle-East through Mohammad?



Everything is worship-worthy if we see the divine in it. Men having realized their divinity are doubly worship-worthy because such divinities reach out to us with their love.

lol.. the above in its entirety is lacking in correct and logical relation... I am not sure what to say of it.. save for.. you want to worship your god ganesh by all means.. that is what it means to have free will

7:169 And they have been succeeded by [new] generations who - [in spite of] having inherited the divine writ-clutch but at the fleeting good of this lower world and say, "We shall be forgiven, [135] the while they are ready, if another such fleeting good should come their way, to clutch at it [and sin again]. Have they not been solemnly pledged through the divine writ not to attribute unto God aught but what is true, [136] and [have they not] read again and again all that is therein? Since the life in the hereafter is the better [of the two] for all who are conscious of God -will you not, then, use your reason?

74:38 Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

one of many.. letting you know, now that you have been given the clear revelation to remove all that 'dung' and you still refuse it.. it is your right, but you will be held in pledge of your own deeds!

In saying I am communicating with a person, I am unlikely to be wrong. But if I discover that I have been communicating with a computer generated entity, I suppose I will loose all interest in continuing to communicate, unless I treat the communication as a form of entertainment or I have human audiences listening in. We are able to communicate with God and God with us only because there is something of God within us. If we realize that God is actually a machine, then all we would want is to somehow gain control of the machine called God or at least manipulate it. Because this is what we have been doing with the machines we have created. Islam portrays Allah as being full of human qualities, like kindness, knowledgeable, understanding, merciful, benign, strict etc. Allah is certainly not a machine. Allah is us!

hmmmmmn... should I trust a book that speaks of elephant gods and a baba who has achieved godliness..
or the inerrant Quran

وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّي وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّن الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً {85}​

[Pickthal 17:85] They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

Fairy tales are a great part of human heritage. They are never a waste in children’s lives. They open up children’s imagination. I am happy you think signing up for a Yoga course is not a waste of time. Yoga is at the heart of Hinduism. Its source is the Vedas. Has the Quran contributed anything to mankind comparable to Yoga?

Yoga is a nice sport.. I prefer Islamic prayer
indeed the Quran gives us that which is better

2:45 And seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer: and this, indeed, is a hard thing for all but the humble in spirit.

2:110 And be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues; for, whatever good deed you send ahead for your own selves, you shall find it with God: behold, God sees all that you do.

2:125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary: [102] take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." [103] And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael: "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, [104] and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves [in prayer]."

2:144 We have seen thee [O Prophet] often turn thy face towards heaven [for guidance]: and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it [in prayer]. And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this [commandment] comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.

2:153 O YOU who have attained to faith! Seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer: for, behold, God is with those who are patient in adversity.

2:177 True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west [143] - but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation, [144] and the prophets; and spends his substance - however much he himself may cherish - it - upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, [145] and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage; [146] and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and [truly pious are] they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God.

2:277 Verily, those who have attained to faith and do good works, and are constant in prayer, and dispense charity - they shall have their reward with their Sustainer, and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

I can go on all day.. as you can see this is only from the 2nd chapter =)

You might say Quran is a poem. But Allah did not think so. He says in the Quran: 069.041 It is not poet's speech but only a few of you have faith. Moreover, at the time of the Quran, to call a person a poet was derogatory. Mohammad’s enemies called him a magician, a poet, a madman and an epileptic.

That is indeed so... the Quran is not a poem, though it reads like one..hence folks accused the prophet of being a poet.. he had brought something very profound and unusual that people wanted to either call him mad or a poet.. the Quran isn't a book of poetry anymore than it is a book of science.. yet it contains both..
try listening to a recitation of any other 'holy book' compared to the Quran.. there is nothing comprable to it.. yet it speaks with logic, not magic or fairy tales

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=YeeGYfFi5b4[/media]

here is one of the shortest as an example

But look at who are expressing – God realized men. Only then would it come under the category of scriptures.

that is just your declaration.. in the very least, it should uphold its own, if can't be validated by any other means!

As I told earlier, these are the stories (or history) of the worlds of Gods. Remember Allah also has such a world to which we are not much privy – the world where he had Satan and continues to reside with his angles, where he has his throne. Incidentally, it is said that there is much treasure under the throne of Allah but the keys are only with poets!

Stories are nice.. I love to read.. I have them piled to the ceiling and still can't get enough.. but one needs to separate fact from fiction..

Can you please tell me what in the Quran is literal and what is allegorical? I have all along assumed that all Quran is literal. (Though I have met a Sufi who told me otherwise. However, I thought the Sufi could see it allegorical as he was well-versed in Hinduism.) The Vedas, I have assumed on the other hand, are all allegorical. (In the sense that it has hidden spiritual meanings.)

You should read the Quran and ask about individual verses.. I am not going to sit here and go through 1100 pages..

peace

 

[Snowflake]

K.Venugopal;960426][960359]
I think you have touched on the core of the lack (as I see it) in Islam. Not a single Muslim, as you say, has ever claimed to have seen God. This is inevitable because Islam believes that God the Creator is separate from his creation. This is not the case in Hinduism. Hinduism at its core espouses the fact that the Creator and his creation are not separate. Therefore in Islam the destiny of man is to be a slave of Allah whereas in Hinduism man’s destiny is to discover the divine in him. Hinduism is full of descriptions of God because Hindus who have realized the divine have the freedom to express the divine in various ways. In Islam the question of expressing the divine does not arise, there is only praise of Allah, who created man to test his loyalty.

That's correct, muslims haven't seen God. According to The Vedas neither have Hindus.

"Na tasya Pratima asti" - "There is no image of Him." Yajurveda 32:3​

According to this statement, there is no image of God, so Hindus have not seen God, which means there is no direct experience, hence the concept of oneness if flawed right from the start.

and... "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures." [Bhagavad Gita 7:20]

So Hindus by associating images to God of having four heads and worshipping demigods they have violated their own religious teachings. This is directly the result of hindus being allowed to express the divine freely.

Muslims on the other hand only associate with God, His attributes, which He has told of in the meanings of His 99 beautiful names. Again, I'm afraid you're mistaken about the purpose of our creation. Allah says in the Quran: "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)

Yes, we are tested, and rewarded accordingly. We live and die only once. Our fate (heaven or hell) is decided once. According to hinduism, salvation is achieved after the completion of many rebirths - with a stay in heaven/hell according to deeds in each life time, in between. No hindu scholar or pundit has been able to come up with a satisfactory answer of how many rebirths are required before attaining salvation. The Hindu soul is continously subjected to being tested and punished/rewarded over an unknown period of time which may span over millions of years. A soul in oneness with His creator should at least know when he'll be relieved. Even prisoners know their date of release.

The concept of oneness is further contradicted in the Vedas by stating that is not for the lower class. They are neither allowed to read or hear it and are only free to participate in the hindu religion - not even allowed to enter temples or the homes of the higher class. Hence, the Vedas also discriminates against a certain group of people. Oneness?


Furthermore, hindus need associates (idols) to reach god, not to mention the bloody sacrifices to appease his various forms. Which God at oneness with His creation requires the unnecessary killing of innocent animals to accept the worship of His followers? As it goes, the blood of animals sacrificed to appease the goddess Kali at the temple in Kalighat, Calcultta, never dries. Islam removes these barriers, assuring a direct relationship between man and his Creator. You may bring up the Islamic sacrificing of animals at Eid ul Adhaa. Please don't since this ritual sacrifice isn't to appease God, but in rememberance of Prophet Ibrahim's willingness to sacrifice his son at God's command, and for a muslim to share his good fortune with the poor in the community.

K.Venugopal: Once you know that something exists, then belief becomes redundant. (Having faith in something or someone you know exists in another matter.)

For the simple reason, to the best of my knowledge, I am not aware of anything except a human who can respond like a human. I know you very much exist as a human just like me and therefore I strive to be very careful not to hurt your sensitivity while at the same time trying to get across my feelings anyhow. These are all in the realm of direct experience. But if you claim that you are corresponding to me from planet Saturn, I would simply call your bluff.

Direct experience doesn't precede 'the best of my knowledge' but knowledge that is absolute. Hence your limited knowledge of me has failed to even touch the bounderies of direct experience.

K.Venugopal: Hinduism is based on the expressions of experiences of man. Hinduism does not claim that its scriptures are written by a God sitting in heaven and sent as guidance for mankind.

Thank you for agreeing that Hinduism isn't from a divine source. Experiences can come from anywhere. In the case of Hinduism, it's rebellious Jinns.

K.Venugopal: Unlike the Quran, most of the Hindu scriptures are in the form of poetry, including the Vedas. Hindus have always known that much of it is not to be taken merely literally but the spirit behind the expressions is to be grasped. Quran, on the other hand, has to be taken literally. Events like the splitting of the moon, the flowing of water from the fingers Mohammad and his satisfying the thirst of a whole army with that water, and the grieving of the dry wooden pole–against which the Prophet used to lean while delivering sermons–because of its separation from him, and its being heard by a whole congregation etc. are taken literally by Muslims and consider them miracles

Yes, the miracles are to be taken literally. Indeed science proves that the moon did once split. But the Quran is not entirely literal. Some verses use, metaphors which are effective and advance the understanding of the reader.

For example: The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. (Surat al-Baqara, 171)


Yet the expressions in hindu teachings, are ficticious and persuade the reader to believe something that isn't true - not even in its allegorical sense.

Example 1:

I Krishna personally establish the Vedic sound vibration in the form of omkara within all living entities. It is thus perceived subtly, just like a single strand of fiber on a lotus stalk. Just as a spider brings forth from its heart its web and emits it through its mouth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests Himself as the reverberating primeval vital air, comprising all sacred Vedic meters and full of transcendental pleasure (Bhagavata-Purana 11.21.38-39).

We know the spider produces it's web from glands located at the abdomen. Certainly, not from the heart and then mouth. The above verse doesn't make sense, spiritually, metaphorically, or factually. How then can you grasp the true spirit behind Vedic expressions, since each person will interpret them in their own way (if that's possible) and end up perplexed as to how to interpret them - and therefore totally misconstrue them.


Example 2: (again)

The God who made the earth stable (Yajur Ved 32/6)

Sun is full of light and knows all the human beings, so his horses take him to sky to look at the world” (Rig Ved 1/50/1)

Literally or allegorically, it makes no sense. The expression simply doesn't correlate to the fact that the earth moves around the sun. Take out the horses and it still points to the sun moving around the earth. Therefore the Vedic method of teaching by expressions remain inefficient in itself.


Peace.


P.S. My belief in my religion is total and I fully satisfied with it's teachings. If I possess something that is so perfect to me, I won't have the need to find faults with someone else's. Doing that suggests that you are not fully satisfied with yours. It's like if I have the best car in the world, I wouldn't go round checking out someone else's, except if I wanted to see if theirs is better than mine. Everything in my post about Hinduism was in reply to yours. Otherwise, I do not feel the need to go out of my way to find fault with yours. I have the best alhumdulillah. So perhaps you are not totally satisfied with yours.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Arabic is understood in Arabic and not in English. Secondly, in Arabic, a word will have different meanings depending on where it is used in the sentence and how it is used.

I agree with you. This is true of all languages.

So إشهد in this case means:

In Lisaan Al-A'rab: " Ashad as in the statement of saying " Ashadu Anna La Illaha Illa Allah" means : I know and acknowledge that ....".​

I accept this translation, no questions asked.

In Taaj Al-A'rous: " Saying Shahidt ( I witnessed) comes in two meaning: a) acknowledging and having the knowledge about something b) a phrase of swearing like saying Ashadu billah which means: I swear by Allah..."

So, for the witnessing part of this word in this sentence, is understood as follows:

I witness (know and acknowledge) that Allah exists through the signs of his creatures that no one else can create so I know for sure that He is the only Diety.
​

Next, in taking the definition of the word إشهد, then it is more comprehensive in its meaning because it includes 'believing', 'witnessing' and 'knowing'. This has been explained above. Therefore, this word إشهد is more suitable in affirming the belief of Tawheed.

Believing – fully acceptable; knowing – acceptable, because there are so many ways a person can know something, including a gut feeling. Witnessing? Unless it means having faith, I would say it is a bad translation.

And really, these points are enough to expose the weakness of your argument. But to further show its inability: the word إشهد is better than the suggestions you suggested ("I believe" etc) as it covers what is following in the sentence with seriousness and certainty. Since the Shahada in Islaam is a matter of utmost seriousness, it is only befitting that the word إشهد is used rather anything else.

Friend, I have no questions on the Arabic word used for the simple reason that I do not know Arabic.

Simple belief can be wrong when it has false foundations,

A belief is OK, whatever its foundations because no one need expect a belief to be more than just that – an assumption coupled with faith.

and simply witnessing can also be wrong due to other factors such as knowledge gained in the future.

Witnessing, if properly witnessed, cannot turn out to be wrong. So I do not understand what you mean by “knowledge gained in the future”.

Thus, gathering belief in Allaah's Oneness, along with witnessing the evidences that prove His Oneness results in acknowledging and knowing based upon firm knowledge that only He is worthy of worship. Therefore, had there been any other word used here other than إشهد, then the meaning would not have been as complete, as deep, and as thorough as it is with إشهد.

إشهد. I wonder why this word reads from left to right when cut and pasted in MS Word. Please try it at your end and tell me why.

Really, it is a shame when people cannot bring credible questions for worthy discussions, but have to resort to wasting other people's time

That my questions may not be credible to you I accept but please do not say I am wasting your time, when the choice to respond to me is yours.

by discussing the semantics of a language, and that too of a language that they don't even understand!

I have never sought to discuss the semantics of Arabic. How could I - I do not know Arabic. I was simply focusing on the English word ‘witness’ and its usage in English.

How can an individual ever succeed in making his point, when the point he is making stems from an ignorant base?!

True!

{And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book, Twisting his neck [in arrogance] to mislead from the way of Allah.}[al-Hajj; 8-9]

Allah knows all.

 

[K.Venugopal]

You'll forgive me if I sound brusque.. but according to you should carry weight because?

According to me = According to my understanding.

Does life not cease?

Life never ceases. Only its forms and names keep changing.

so we are all Gods?.. if that is the case.. why choose to worship at all?

Yes, we are all Gods. Whoever realizes this ceases to worship. Does Allah worship?

What method have you used to reach that distinction?

Meditation.

Life ends with expiry of the Organic body.. thus if Allah is life itself, he too shall die!

Life does not end, only it takes new forms. Allah cannot die because He is another name for life.

The measurment of life can only be defined by its contrast to death.. and since everything living shall die. then so too shall your god!

The world of contrasts, of duality, is the experience of the limited. Life understands that contrasts are different aspects of the same phenomenon.

That is a wonderful dream.. but I assure you, you can and will die, as well everything else in creation-- no one has escaped death yet!

Except Allah, who is our true essence. Therefore we do not die, only our limited body transforms.

What a sad thing indeed.. this desire to believe, so one reaches for a lesser god, as it makes it more comprehensible.. yet subjets gods to the same fate we all suffer.. I tell you, your satya baba, should perform some miracles on day time TV.. I am sure it will prove amusing!

Satya Sai Baba Himself is a miracle. His worshipers say he is performing miracles all the time. People from all over the world flock to him round the year. Satya Sai Baba is taken seriously by millions. If you do not believe me, come and meet him. He lives in India.

You have no proof of that.. least of which a decipherable book with a divine origin.. Thus what you impart are the fairly tales of men!

All religions believe their scriptures are of divine origin. But Hinduism is not book-dependent. Hinduism is the expression in various ways of experiences of the best of its practitioners. Such practitioners are bound to occur in all generations.

I see that we go around in circles here... a god that is a part of his creation is a god that dies, one that isn't worthy of worship, for he is no more or less than those he created.. again akin to christianity somewhat! in which case I say, why not christianity over hinduism.. is it a mere age thing?

Neither creator nor creation is born or dies. What we call birth and death is simply life taking on new forms.

existence doesn't mean success, nor does it grant one salavtion into the right path.. Zoroastrianism is even older than hindusim, and exists today.. people want to hold on to the absurd beliefs because that is how they found their elders, but not because it is the truth..

What may be absurd for you may not be absurd for others. And what is divine for you may not be so for others.

2:170 But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their reason at all, and were devoid of all guidance?

Allah comes in the middle ages and wants men to discard their heritage and follow His message in the Quran. But Allah has disallowed Muslims the right to discard His heritage through the Quran. Hence, the concept of apostasy in Islam. Allah says we must believe Him or we shall roast forever. Allah verily lacks a sense of proportion.

Man is only as elevated as he thinks himself.. if he believes he is only worthy to revel in cow dung then so be it.. Allah SWT has chosen for us that which is better.

You are very right. Man has the capacity to elevate himself. To see the divine in everything is to have attained the highest of man’s capacity. You have the freedom to believe in Allah and become His perfect slave. We have freedom to believe in ourselves and become divine.

lol.. the above in its entirety is lacking in correct and logical relation... I am not sure what to say of it.. save for.. you want to worship your god ganesh by all means.. that is what it means to have free will

The freedom of worship you appear to grant me here is not granted in ideal Muslim societies. Did not Islam wipe out the idol-worshippers of Arabia? They would have done it elsewhere in the world also, but fortunately Islam did not win all its wars.

7:169 And they have been succeeded by [new] generations who - [in spite of] having inherited the divine writ-clutch but at the fleeting good of this lower world and say, "We shall be forgiven, [135] the while they are ready, if another such fleeting good should come their way, to clutch at it [and sin again]. Have they not been solemnly pledged through the divine writ not to attribute unto God aught but what is true, [136] and [have they not] read again and again all that is therein? Since the life in the hereafter is the better [of the two] for all who are conscious of God -will you not, then, use your reason?

Even from a Hindu point of view, I am able to agree with the above verses. As a matter of fact, much of the Quran is agreeable to me even when seen from the Hindu angle. My disappointment is with some of its verses that are decidedly narrow-minded – those verses that stress that Islam is the only valid religion.

74:38 Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

Hindus also believe the same and they call it the theory of “Karma”.

one of many.. letting you know, now that you have been given the clear revelation to remove all that 'dung' and you still refuse it.. it is your right, but you will be held in pledge of your own deeds!

Allah gives a person less than 100 years to live (not counting those who die prematurely in their teens or of lesser age) and then if he makes mistakes, for much of which he would have already suffered punishment one way or the other from the society or his own conscience, he would be roasted eternally in Hell. Is this a fair Allah? Hinduism speaks of lifetimes to perfect ourselves.

hmmmmmn... should I trust a book that speaks of elephant gods and a baba who has achieved godliness..
or the inerrant Quran

وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّي وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّن الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً {85}​

[Pickthal 17:85] They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

The books that speak of the elephant god have existed long before Allah spoke in the Quran. In spite of Allah’s speech, the elephant god is still worshipped. Obviously Allah’s speech did not impress all.

Yoga is a nice sport.. I prefer Islamic prayer
indeed the Quran gives us that which is better

The Quran makes you narrow minded in matters of religions because its basic teaching is that only Islam is true and all other religions are sham. The God of the Quran is a very partial being. He is partial to those who believe Him (instead of being partial to those who are upright). Is this about an egoistic God? Something like the biblical “I your God am a jealous God”?

2:45 And seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer: and this, indeed, is a hard thing for all but the humble in spirit.

I agree.

2:110 And be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues; for, whatever good deed you send ahead for your own selves, you shall find it with God: behold, God sees all that you do.

Such verses are aplenty in all the scriptures of the world.

2:125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary: [102] take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." [103] And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael: "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, [104] and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves [in prayer]."

It is ironic that the words Temple and meditation are used in these verses. Now Islam recognizes only mosques and prayers.

2:144 We have seen thee [O Prophet] often turn thy face towards heaven [for guidance]: and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it [in prayer]. And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this [commandment] comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.

Allah allowed all the idols to come up in Mecca. He also protected the idols. Then Mohammad came and destroyed them in the name of Allah.

2:153 O YOU who have attained to faith! Seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer: for, behold, God is with those who are patient in adversity.

2:177 True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west

What about turning it towards Mecca?

[143] - but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation,

Isn’t believe in Allah alone sufficient? How do angles come into the human picture?

[144] and the prophets;

Why is it necessary to believe in the Prophets over and above believing in Allah? Are they thereby not made partners of Allah?

and spends his substance - however much he himself may cherish - it - upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, [145] and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage; [146] and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and [truly pious are] they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God.

2:277 Verily, those who have attained to faith and do good works, and are constant in prayer, and dispense charity - they shall have their reward with their Sustainer, and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

I can go on all day.. as you can see this is only from the 2nd chapter =)

None of the quotations that you have given are unique to Quran. All scriptures are full of such sayings. What is unique about Quran is its portrayal of Allah being cruel to those who do not believe Him. No other scripture talks about being so cruel to humans simply because they do not believe in God.

That is indeed so... the Quran is not a poem, though it reads like one..hence folks accused the prophet of being a poet.. he had brought something very profound and unusual that people wanted to either call him mad or a poet.. the Quran isn't a book of poetry anymore than it is a book of science.. yet it contains both . try listening to a recitation of any other 'holy book' compared to the Quran.. there is nothing comprable to it.. yet it speaks with logic, not magic or fairy tales

Sikh scriptures, for example, are sung in their temples. Sikhs think they are the most melodious sounds that man could have the fortune to listen to. Which is to say, every practitioner thinks his or her religion is the best in all ways. This is natural. But what is unnatural and born only out of ignorance is to think that others’ religions are all nonsense and only my religion is true.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YeeGYfFi5b4

here is one of the shortest as an example that is just your declaration.. in the very least, it should uphold its own, if can't be validated by any other means!

Stories are nice.. I love to read.. I have them piled to the ceiling and still can't get enough.. but one needs to separate fact from fiction..

Just as one needs to separate belief from fact.

You should read the Quran and ask about individual verses.. I am not going to sit here and go through 1100 pages..

I have one question for you. Why does Allah say He created life when it is a logical impossibility? If something was created it would mean it did not exist before its creation. If life did not exist till Allah created it, it would only mean that Allah was without life. A dead Allah?

 

[K.Venugopal]

That's correct, muslims haven't seen God. According to The Vedas neither have Hindus.

"Na tasya Pratima asti" - "There is no image of Him." Yajurveda 32:3​

Of course there is no image of Him to the person who has achieved self-realisation. He has become that which he was worshipping through an image. The Vedas speak of truths higher than that touched upon by the Quran. From the Hindu point of view, Islam has only reached the level of ‘duality’ (where the creator and created are separate). The Vedas speak of non-duality, where the creator and created are one. It will therefore be difficult for a Muslim, who has only been educated to the level of duality, to grasp the higher teachings of the Vedas. By saying this I do not mean to belittle Islam. The vast majority of Hindus are also dualists.

According to this statement, there is no image of God, so Hindus have not seen God, which means there is no direct experience, hence the concept of oneness if flawed right from the start.

What makes you think that the Veda is the only scripture that the Hindus follow? And moreover, have you heard of the great Vedic revelation: Aham Brahmasmi? It means, “I am God”. And this is the ultimate knowledge that the Vedas, in its portion called Vedanta, teach. What is the concept of oneness that Islam understands? It talks of the oneness of Allah. When Hinduism speaks of oneness, it talks of the oneness of all existence, which includes the creator and the created. This is akin to the Islamic concept of brotherhood. It is only a brotherhood of believers in Islam. The Hindu concept of 'Vasudaivakutumbakam' means all existence is a family.

and... "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures." [Bhagavad Gita 7:20]

We all worship according to our nature. When we purify our nature through meditation, we would end all worship upon realizing that we are the God whom we worship.

So Hindus by associating images to God of having four heads and worshipping demigods they have violated their own religious teachings. This is directly the result of hindus being allowed to express the divine freely.

This is because you suppose that the Hindus should have only one scripture. The Hindus have many scriptures and the Hindus may follow any scripture they wish or no scripture at all. In Hinduism scriptures are not the ultimate. It is self-realization.

Muslims on the other hand only associate with God, His attributes, which He has told of in the meanings of His 99 beautiful names. Again, I'm afraid you're mistaken about the purpose of our creation. Allah says in the Quran: "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)

You associate not only with Allah but are also following the words of Mohammad outside of the Quran. If Quran is truly Allah’s word, it would have stood on its own accord and would be sufficient for man. Following of hadiths and sunnah indicate that Muslims do not find the Quran able to stand by itself.

Yes, we are tested, and rewarded accordingly. We live and die only once. Our fate (heaven or hell) is decided once. According to hinduism, salvation is achieved after the completion of many rebirths - with a stay in heaven/hell according to deeds in each life time, in between. No hindu scholar or pundit has been able to come up with a satisfactory answer of how many rebirths are required before attaining salvation. The Hindu soul is continously subjected to being tested and punished/rewarded over an unknown period of time which may span over millions of years. A soul in oneness with His creator should at least know when he'll be relieved. Even prisoners know their date of release.

But for the crime of not believing in Allah (that is, living as instructed in the Quran) a person would spend eternity roasting in Hell. This would mean all the people who were born before the Quran was complied would be destined to go to Hell. Quite an unfair Allah.

The concept of oneness is further contradicted in the Vedas by stating that is not for the lower class. They are neither allowed to read or hear it and are only free to participate in the hindu religion - not even allowed to enter temples or the homes of the higher class. Hence, the Vedas also discriminates against a certain group of people. Oneness?

What about Allah condoning slavery in the Quran?

Furthermore, hindus need associates (idols) to reach god, not to mention the bloody sacrifices to appease his various forms. Which God at oneness with His creation requires the unnecessary killing of innocent animals to accept the worship of His followers? As it goes, the blood of animals sacrificed to appease the goddess Kali at the temple in Kalighat, Calcultta, never dries. Islam removes these barriers, assuring a direct relationship between man and his Creator.

This direct relationship is given only to Hinduism which believes that man is in essence God. In Islam there is no direct relationship. You have to go to Allah through Mohammad. Even in the Shahada, Mohammad is mentioned alongside Allah. Quran is not complete without the work of Mohammad – the Hadiths and Sunnah.

You may bring up the Islamic sacrificing of animals at Eid ul Adhaa. Please don't since this ritual sacrifice isn't to appease God, but in rememberance of Prophet Ibrahim's willingness to sacrifice his son at God's command, and for a muslim to share his good fortune with the poor in the community.

I am glad you brought up the killing of animals during Eid. Whatever the reasons, whether in Kalighat or Mecca, the sufferers are innocent animals. There should be a movement to stop animal sacrifice in Mecca.

Direct experience doesn't precede 'the best of my knowledge' but knowledge that is absolute. Hence your limited knowledge of me has failed to even touch the bounderies of direct experience.

Thank you for agreeing that Hinduism isn't from a divine source. Experiences can come from anywhere. In the case of Hinduism, it's rebellious Jinns.

When Hinduism believes that man himself is divine, how can Hinduism not come from divine sources? What I said was that it did not come from a God sitting in heaven separated from his creation.

Yes, the miracles are to be taken literally. Indeed science proves that the moon did once split.

Please tell me about this. And also confirm that this ‘once’ was in the 7th century AD.

But the Quran is not entirely literal. Some verses use, metaphors which are effective and advance the understanding of the reader.

For example: The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. (Surat al-Baqara, 171) [/QUOTE]

The picture that came up in my mind reading this parable are goats at Mecca during Id bleating away. But who is to listen? Are not the slaughterers carrying out Allah’s injunction?

Yet the expressions in hindu teachings, are ficticious and persuade the reader to believe something that isn't true - not even in its allegorical sense.


Example 1:

I Krishna personally establish the Vedic sound vibration in the form of omkara within all living entities. It is thus perceived subtly, just like a single strand of fiber on a lotus stalk. Just as a spider brings forth from its heart its web and emits it through its mouth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests Himself as the reverberating primeval vital air, comprising all sacred Vedic meters and full of transcendental pleasure (Bhagavata-Purana 11.21.38-39).

We know the spider produces it's web from glands located at the abdomen. Certainly, not from the heart and then mouth. The above verse doesn't make sense, spiritually, metaphorically, or factually. How then can you grasp the true spirit behind Vedic expressions, since each person will interpret them in their own way (if that's possible) and end up perplexed as to how to interpret them - and therefore totally misconstrue them.

Much of Hindu scriptures are in poetry and therefore choice of words are more artistic than scientific.

Since Hinduism believes that God is what we are in essence, Hinduism is full of subjective expressions of God. Hinduism has spawned a religious culture that permits our understanding and expression of the truth we discover in various ways. Just as no two artists paint alike, likewise no two self-realized persons express the reality in exactly the same way. And yet the truth expressed is one.

Example 2: (again)



Literally or allegorically, it makes no sense. The expression simply doesn't correlate to the fact that the earth moves around the sun. Take out the horses and it still points to the sun moving around the earth. Therefore the Vedic method of teaching by expressions remain inefficient in itself.

All Hindu scriptures celebrate the truth of man’s inherent divinity and attempt to awaken man to this truth. Though we know that the Sun does not move vis-à-vis the earth, we still stay that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Why? Because it is still seen as valid from the point of view of man’s immediate experience. We can get to the unknown only if we start from the known. Therefore when the Hindu scriptures employ imagery, it employs imagery that can be immediately connected by a reader at any level. But this does not preclude Hindu scriptures from revealing higher truths. The science of astronomy and one of its effect, the art of astrology, are extant in the Vedas. So we should not confuse imagery used in the scriptures to expound subtle truths to scientific truths contained in the same scriptures.

P.S. My belief in my religion is total and I fully satisfied with it's teachings. If I possess something that is so perfect to me, I won't have the need to find faults with someone else's. Doing that suggests that you are not fully satisfied with yours. It's like if I have the best car in the world, I wouldn't go round checking out someone else's, except if I wanted to see if theirs is better than mine. Everything in my post about Hinduism was in reply to yours. Otherwise, I do not feel the need to go out of my way to find fault with yours. I have the best alhumdulillah. So perhaps you are not totally satisfied with yours.

Since for me religion is not about a source that is limited to any particular book but a matter of self-realization - the question of dissatisfaction with any religion does not arise. I try to understand all religions as I celebrate them as splendid expressions of the best of men. For me Islam is as valid as any other religion but I would seek to interpret it as I have understood it. It is man’s narrow mindedness that makes him take the position that his religion alone is right and all other religions are bunkum. Such a mindset is an ignorant one and I enjoy exposing such mindsets. For instance, I agree with the Shahada when it says that Allah is the only god and there is no other god. But I do not agree with the narrow-minded understanding of this to mean that all the other expressions of God in all the other religions of the world are false. For Hinduism says, “Truth is one and the wise express it variously”. Therefore my opposition is never to Islam but the narrow-minded way it is interpreted. Many Sufis have interpreted Islam broad-mindedly and therefore I consider myself also a Sufi, so to speak.

 

[aadil77]

According to me = According to my understanding.



Life never ceases. Only its forms and names keep changing.

thats according to you, you will see in the hereafter clearly that you will not be given the wonderful oppurtunity to reincarnate into a dog or a monkey or a cow or what ever animal you hold sacred


Yes, we are all Gods. Whoever realizes this ceases to worship. Does Allah worship?

We are all Gods?I don't think so mate we don't share any attributes of the true God, neither does that six limbed girl born in india, or that boy born with a tail in india

Life does not end, only it takes new forms. Allah cannot die because He is another name for life.

life does end mate, when your ashes are thrown into the ganges river thats the end of the cycle for you, theres no coming back, you will notice that when two angels come by to pay you a visit. I thought you didn't know arabic, Allah simply means God in arabic or the God

Except Allah, who is our true essence. Therefore we do not die, only our limited body transforms.

As I said, you're not going to transform into an ape or whatever, keep dreaming, this is your only chance at life so make the most it:thumbs_up


Satya Sai Baba Himself is a miracle. His worshipers say he is performing miracles all the time. People from all over the world flock to him round the year. Satya Sai Baba is taken seriously by millions. If you do not believe me, come and meet him. He lives in India.

Lets see what miracles he performs when death comes by to take him or when he dies in a humiliating way

All religions believe their scriptures are of divine origin. But Hinduism is not book-dependent. Hinduism is the expression in various ways of experiences of the best of its practitioners. Such practitioners are bound to occur in all generations.

Yep they are the story tellers that are clearly mentioned in Qur'an


Neither creator nor creation is born or dies. What we call birth and death is simply life taking on new forms.


When the day of ressurection happens, there will be no life on earth

What may be absurd for you may not be absurd for others. And what is divine for you may not be so for others.

True, atleast it is clear who have gone astray and who have not

Allah comes in the middle ages and wants men to discard their heritage and follow His message in the Quran. But Allah has disallowed Muslims the right to discard His heritage through the Quran. Hence, the concept of apostasy in Islam. Allah says we must believe Him or we shall roast forever. Allah verily lacks a sense of proportion.


No-one will roast in hell until they have witnessed islam and cleary disregarded it of their own free will, someone who has never heard of the truth or experienced it will not be subject to punishment, as Allah is just


The freedom of worship you appear to grant me here is not granted in ideal Muslim societies. Did not Islam wipe out the idol-worshippers of Arabia? They would have done it elsewhere in the world also, but fortunately Islam did not win all its wars.

Arabia is a holy land, muslims were ordered not to let disbeleif enter certain parts of these lands, the only thing we wiped out were the idols in the holy kaabah not the worshippers, Allah owns this whole planet, even if we conquer the whole planet you will still have your freedom to disbelief but just not as openly, and not in certain parts of saudi


Even from a Hindu point of view, I am able to agree with the above verses. As a matter of fact, much of the Quran is agreeable to me even when seen from the Hindu angle. My disappointment is with some of its verses that are decidedly narrow-minded – those verses that stress that Islam is the only valid religion.

Why wouldn't you agree with the verses, they are the true word of God. We don't care about your disappointment in the verses to be honest, by 'narrow minded' it seems you can't accept how clear and concise our laws are laid down to us, our beleifs aren't based on 'spiritual' assumptions, everything is crystal clear,

The Qur'an wasn't the only book sent down to us, the true beleivers of the previous monotheistic religons before were also believers (christians, jews) , the beliefs in islam are what make it the only valid religion this day and the fact that it was sent as a guidence for the whole of makind not just a certain people


Allah gives a person less than 100 years to live (not counting those who die prematurely in their teens or of lesser age) and then if he makes mistakes, for much of which he would have already suffered punishment one way or the other from the society or his own conscience, he would be roasted eternally in Hell. Is this a fair Allah? Hinduism speaks of lifetimes to perfect ourselves.

100 years? not in the early ages. As I said Allah is Just , its not as if you do something wrong then the next day you unfortunatley lose your life then end up in hell, God will fairly deal with each of us and we cannot speak for God's will, accept what is already stated, its up to Allah what that persons destination will be and and Allah is never unjust in his descision, (there are verses for these statements)

The books that speak of the elephant god have existed long before Allah spoke in the Quran. In spite of Allah’s speech, the elephant god is still worshipped. Obviously Allah’s speech did not impress all.

Really?, monotheism (beleif of one God) has existed since the beginning of time, fairy tales have existed in many generations its nothing new. Everyone is not meant to beleivers, but considering how 'old' hinduism and how the elephant is still worshipped, I still fail to see a single non-asian hindu. Just look around muslim numbers speak for themselves, from every part of the world, not like in hinduism where its just the high birth rates.

Its seems the long exsistance of hinduism hasn't seemed to bring about many followers, whereas the muslim population is what? 1.8-9 billion. Quantity doesn't matter its about the quality, but this is just an example. Something like 70 -80 % of hindu's are from india? it just shows how the rest of the world is very convinced by hinduism

Isn't it ironic how all the animal Gods in hinduism are common animals in india? I mean why not a polar bear god? or a kangaroo god? Probably because the story tellers never saw the rest of the world, so their imagination was limited to what was common in india:?


The Quran makes you narrow minded in matters of religions because its basic teaching is that only Islam is true and all other religions are sham. The God of the Quran is a very partial being. He is partial to those who believe Him (instead of being partial to those who are upright). Is this about an egoistic God? Something like the biblical “I your God am a jealous God”?

read my above post, God does not need us to beleive in him

It is ironic that the words Temple and meditation are used in these verses. Now Islam recognizes only mosques and prayers.

Whats ironic about this?, before islam our prophet Muhammad would meditate in thought in the caves of makkah, Our prophet Solomon (Suleiman) built a temple in jeruselem


Allah allowed all the idols to come up in Mecca. He also protected the idols. Then Mohammad came and destroyed them in the name of Allah.

You could say that about all the evils in the world, thats why messengers were sent to teach the people

What about turning it towards Mecca? Isn’t believe in Allah alone sufficient? How do angles come into the human picture? Why is it necessary to believe in the Prophets over and above believing in Allah? Are they thereby not made partners of Allah?

What? The prophets were the ones who taught us the word of God, it would be stupid not to believe in them, they have no status as near as God, I don't know why you feel everything needs to be worshipped and given divine status, seriously why? not enough choice of Gods?, thats probably how hindusim came about, *Get your Gods in all shapes and sizes*. The Kaabah is the house of God as God commanded it to built by the prophet Abraham (Ibraheem), facing it gives muslims a since a of direction and unity as we all face the same way, in supplication we can lift our hands and pray towards any direction


None of the quotations that you have given are unique to Quran. All scriptures are full of such sayings. What is unique about Quran is its portrayal of Allah being cruel to those who do not believe Him. No other scripture talks about being so cruel to humans simply because they do not believe in God.

Are you sure? ever heard of the old testement? Fear in God is what keeps most believers on the straight path otherwise everyone would take advantage of God's mercy

Sikh scriptures, for example, are sung in their temples. Sikhs think they are the most melodious sounds that man could have the fortune to listen to. Which is to say, every practitioner thinks his or her religion is the best in all ways. This is natural. But what is unnatural and born only out of ignorance is to think that others’ religions are all nonsense and only my religion is true.


Again ever heard the Quran? its not a song. no-one can produce a verse like of the quran and this isn't the only reason why islam is the true religion


I have one question for you. Why does Allah say He created life when it is a logical impossibility? If something was created it would mean it did not exist before its creation. If life did not exist till Allah created it, it would only mean that Allah was without life. A dead Allah?

Exactly, life did not exist before its creation, hence the heavens and the earth etc were created, that doesn't mean God didn't exist. These are things we don't have much knowledge about, there are things that only God knows, so we don't assume and simply say 'Allahu alim' (God knows best). Maybe if you are successful in the hereafter you can ask him yourself, but that point isn't a sufficent reason in not believing in Allah

peace

 

[جوري]

According to me = According to my understanding.

How are you credible?

Life never ceases. Only its forms and names keep changing.

fascinating.. so we have a certain number of 'souls' that keep being recycled? How do you explain that we have more people now than ever? and how do you explain that we have species that have gone extinct? where do they go? just hang out with ganesh in the museum awaiting a body?.. and again what are you basing your judgement on? your own understanding of a book that came out of the breath of a statue?

Yes, we are all Gods. Whoever realizes this ceases to worship. Does Allah worship?

what is your definition of God?

Meditation.

?

Life does not end, only it takes new forms. Allah cannot die because He is another name for life.

proof? When an asteroid or giant meteor comes hits the earth and all of life goes extinct, or even if in some nuclear holocaust where will ganesh go? Jupiter? what happens when Jupiter collides with pluto? then what..

The world of contrasts, of duality, is the experience of the limited. Life understands that contrasts are different aspects of the same phenomenon.

What does that mean?

Except Allah, who is our true essence. Therefore we do not die, only our limited body transforms.

see my previous comment!

Satya Sai Baba Himself is a miracle. His worshipers say he is performing miracles all the time. People from all over the world flock to him round the year. Satya Sai Baba is taken seriously by millions. If you do not believe me, come and meet him. He lives in India.

;D ;D.. thanks for the chuckle..

All religions believe their scriptures are of divine origin. But Hinduism is not book-dependent. Hinduism is the expression in various ways of experiences of the best of its practitioners. Such practitioners are bound to occur in all generations.

Anyone can claim their book is divine indeed.. the book can be its own profession of proof...
Hinduism isn't necessary.. it offers man nothing that he can't get from any other religion minus the freaky primitive ideology-- again I ask Zoroastrianism is even older than hindusim, why is a hindu superior especially when he is a pariah/Harijan?!

Neither creator nor creation is born or dies. What we call birth and death is simply life taking on new forms.

From now on I'll just reference you to my original comment, which it so serve two purposes, one hopefuly alert you when you are being redundant.. and two have you recap so we are not going around in circles ad nauseam.

What may be absurd for you may not be absurd for others. And what is divine for you may not be so for others.

Indeed.. no one is forcing you to be anything other than what you are..
you are here on your own accord no?

Allah comes in the middle ages and wants men to discard their heritage and follow His message in the Quran. But Allah has disallowed Muslims the right to discard His heritage through the Quran. Hence, the concept of apostasy in Islam. Allah says we must believe Him or we shall roast forever. Allah verily lacks a sense of proportion.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.. again.. Islam is the first and last religion.. monotheism is the oldest religion.. people lose their way and start carving up statues for worship. Allah swt sends them another messanger for reminders.. the last message unlike the previous is preserved, there is no need for more messangers, but apparently you have the need to carve up more gods, or worship baba

You are very right. Man has the capacity to elevate himself. To see the divine in everything is to have attained the highest of man’s capacity. You have the freedom to believe in Allah and become His perfect slave. We have freedom to believe in ourselves and become divine.

Good for you and for baba

The freedom of worship you appear to grant me here is not granted in ideal Muslim societies. Did not Islam wipe out the idol-worshippers of Arabia? They would have done it elsewhere in the world also, but fortunately Islam did not win all its wars.

I guess you enjoy the pedestrian approach to history as you do religion?.. not to worry.. Islam is the 2nd largest religion, and insha'Allah soon to be the first.

Even from a Hindu point of view, I am able to agree with the above verses. As a matter of fact, much of the Quran is agreeable to me even when seen from the Hindu angle. My disappointment is with some of its verses that are decidedly narrow-minded – those verses that stress that Islam is the only valid religion.

Everyone can agree with the Quran because it is meant for all of man-kind.. there is no caste system in Islam and no one is favored over another, save for what you do for your soul by way of righteousness.. indeed Islam is the only valid religion!

Hindus also believe the same and they call it the theory of “Karma”.

ok

Allah gives a person less than 100 years to live (not counting those who die prematurely in their teens or of lesser age) and then if he makes mistakes, for much of which he would have already suffered punishment one way or the other from the society or his own conscience, he would be roasted eternally in Hell. Is this a fair Allah? Hinduism speaks of lifetimes to perfect ourselves.

How do you know who is roasting from who isn't? judgement doesn't lie with you.. it lies with Allah SWT
In Chapter 6, verse 12, God repeats his law of Grace and Mercy for mankind again. The literal meaning of the words is: God has written upon Himself (has made obligatory on Him).

Again in Chapter 7, verse 156 God repeats “His law of Mercy and Grace” in the following words:
“With My chastisement do I afflict whom I will – but My grace overspreads everything: and so I shall confer it on those who are conscious of Me and spend in charity and who believe in Our messages.”

In an authentic tradition of the prophet, God says of Himself: “Verily, My Grace and Mercy outstrips My wrath.”


so how is it, that you are so keen on knowing who is going where?

The books that speak of the elephant god have existed long before Allah spoke in the Quran. In spite of Allah’s speech, the elephant god is still worshipped. Obviously Allah’s speech did not impress all.

Allah has spoken through the Torah, the zabur, the scrolls of Abraham, the injeel of Jesus and the Quran.. there are carvings of a**** and eve with the tree of life pre-dating your elephant fairy tales, which honestly how can you expect anyone to take seriousely?

The Quran makes you narrow minded in matters of religions because its basic teaching is that only Islam is true and all other religions are sham. The God of the Quran is a very partial being. He is partial to those who believe Him (instead of being partial to those who are upright). Is this about an egoistic God? Something like the biblical “I your God am a jealous God”?

There are no grounds to what you are stating as I have proved on a very basic level.. you are not even familiar with Quranic content.. everything I post from the quran is new to you.. how is it that you are such a scholar on exegesis?

Such verses are aplenty in all the scriptures of the world.

really? show me another book that is similar in rhyme, style, content, meaning and transcendence...
if the basic idea is the same (one God and various messangers stating the same) and in fact monotheism is, pre-dating all current easten mythology, it should tell you something.. the elephant god etc is but a manifestation of your imagination and has no basis in age old wisdom or a sliver of logic..

It is ironic that the words Temple and meditation are used in these verses. Now Islam recognizes only mosques and prayers.

Those are the terms translators try best to evoke 'house of God', they can only do their best as the Quran is inimitable.. all Muslims have to learn at least some Arabic, as prayers can only be recited in the original tongue!
The word 'Mosque' is an English term.. the proper word is Jami3.. a place of congregation/ house of God etc

Allah allowed all the idols to come up in Mecca. He also protected the idols. Then Mohammad came and destroyed them in the name of Allah.

Allah SWT protects no idols, hence he let Mohammed as Abraham before him destroy them!
If they had any will of their own, they should have protected themselves no?.. do you think before you type?

What about turning it towards Mecca? Isn’t believe in Allah alone sufficient? How do angles come into the human picture? Why is it necessary to believe in the Prophets over and above believing in Allah? Are they thereby not made partners of Allah?

How are the prophet believed in 'above' believing in God? did you make that up as you make up stories of baba and ganesh?

None of the quotations that you have given are unique to Quran. All scriptures are full of such sayings. What is unique about Quran is its portrayal of Allah being cruel to those who do not believe Him. No other scripture talks about being so cruel to humans simply because they do not believe in God.

You should really read the bible and the torah if you want to learn of cruetly.. that aside, you haven't picked up a page of the Quran and it is actually no wonder, as it is to be touched only by those who are pure.. you have no idea of its contents, I'd refrain from speaking of it with such authority, lest you end up looking like a humiliated fool..

Sikh scriptures, for example, are sung in their temples. Sikhs think they are the most melodious sounds that man could have the fortune to listen to. Which is to say, every practitioner thinks his or her religion is the best in all ways. This is natural. But what is unnatural and born only out of ignorance is to think that others’ religions are all nonsense and only my religion is true.

sikhism is stolen from hinduism and Islam it obvious to the naked eye, they are yet to make their case, I have a sikh friend she too is enamored by ganesh yet claims to believe in the one God to which she is entitled, as you are entitled to worship whomever.. though at this point I find you tedious and boring!

Just as one needs to separate belief from fact.

indeed but distinguishing it from fairy tales and fiction is even more important!

I have one question for you. Why does Allah say He created life when it is a logical impossibility? If something was created it would mean it did not exist before its creation. If life did not exist till Allah created it, it would only mean that Allah was without life. A dead Allah?

He did in fact create everything ex nihilo .. nothing indeed existed in creation before Allah swt willed it. You need to distinguish the difference of creator and creation to understand the concept:

2: 255

GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being.

Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave?

He knows all that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them,* whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He wills [them to attain].

His eternal power** overspreads the heavens and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And he alone is truly exalted, tremendous.


Allah swt is the break in casuality.. the first cause...
thus death only befalls your baba and the elephant god et al.


In closure, it is really a waste for a Muslim to engage in vain discourse, which I believe is what is happening here.. I can't even arouse enough interest to reply to your posts with any drive or interest from their absurdity.. I am going to stop here and wish you well worshipping yourself, baba, the elephant and whomever else you desire.... I have no interest in reducing the right path to a preposterous dialogue.

peace

 

[al Amaanah]

Unlike the Quran, most of the Hindu scriptures are in the form of poetry, including the Vedas.

ever heard the quran? and what do you mean form of poetry? because the Quran's verses do rhyme. And even the best poets in the time of the Prophet salla Allahu 3alaihi wassalam were amazed by the Quran's language because it was nothing like normal poetry they'd ever heard - it exceeded their poetry.

 

[K.Venugopal]

thats according to you, you will see in the hereafter clearly that you will not be given the wonderful oppurtunity to reincarnate into a dog or a monkey or a cow or what ever animal you hold sacred

When you say, “you will see in the hereafter” are you not confirming that death does not kill me because after death I will be alive in the hereafter in a different form?

We are all Gods?I don't think so mate we don't share any attributes of the true God, neither does that six limbed girl born in india, or that boy born with a tail in india

If nothing else, we (Allah and us) share life in common. If you say this is not true you are only saying Allah has no life! Of course I am not talking here of life in the sense of having a good time, but of that principle which enlivens us.

life does end mate, when your ashes are thrown into the ganges river thats the end of the cycle for you, theres no coming back, you will notice that when two angels come by to pay you a visit. I thought you didn't know arabic, Allah simply means God in arabic or the God

As I said, you're not going to transform into an ape or whatever, keep dreaming, this is your only chance at life so make the most it

Life does not end. If it did, Allah also would die because he is a living God. Only forms change. Change into what is not generally known. But many great men have known their previous lives, including Buddha and have predicted their future lives, including Satya Sai Baba.

Lets see what miracles he performs when death comes by to take him or when he dies in a humiliating way

Islam, which does not believe in reincarnation, says Allah would resurrect us and then we would live forever, either in heaven or hell. So who would inhabit heaven and hell? You and I. So how could it be said that we died? We would have taken on new forms in heaven or hell, but it would still be us. Otherwise who would Allah be rewarding and punishing?

Yep they are the story tellers that are clearly mentioned in Qur'an

A story can always have great truths embedded in it. It fact, story-telling is a popular way of transmitting great and subtle truths. “What is the moral of the story” is a frequently asked question.

When the day of ressurection happens, there will be no life on earth

But hasn’t Allah to bring to life all who died? Wouldn’t you then come alive? Then would you not conclude that death was only a change of form? Therefore even from Islamic point of view death is only a change of form.

No-one will roast in hell until they have witnessed islam and cleary disregarded it of their own free will, someone who has never heard of the truth or experienced it will not be subject to punishment, as Allah is just

Does this mean the mass of human beings who have already died without witnessing Islam would go to heaven to enjoy forever? From what you say, man needs to have many lives so that he has a chance to witness Islam.

Arabia is a holy land, muslims were ordered not to let disbeleif enter certain parts of these lands, the only thing we wiped out were the idols in the holy kaabah not the worshippers, Allah owns this whole planet, even if we conquer the whole planet you will still have your freedom to disbelief but just not as openly, and not in certain parts of saudi

Allah owns the whole planet but you say only Arabia is a holy land. You say disbelievers would not be allowed to enter certain parts of these lands. I wonder what sort of believers it was who had seized Mecca some years back and caused bloodshed? French troops had to be called in to restore order. I also wonder how many of those French troops were Muslims.

Why wouldn't you agree with the verses, they are the true word of God. We don't care about your disappointment in the verses to be honest, by 'narrow minded' it seems you can't accept how clear and concise our laws are laid down to us, our beleifs aren't based on 'spiritual' assumptions, everything is crystal clear,

If everything is so crystal clear, why are fatwas often restored to? Why are there many schools of thought in Islam? Why has not anyone been able to resolve what the abbreviations at the beginning of many surahs in the Quran mean?

The Qur'an wasn't the only book sent down to us, the true beleivers of the previous monotheistic religons before were also believers (christians, jews) , the beliefs in islam are what make it the only valid religion this day and the fact that it was sent as a guidence for the whole of makind not just a certain people

You say the Quran or a similar book was sent many times before too. Why have they disappeared? Is this the fate of the present Quran also? Is the assurance that this Quran will be protected by Allah inserted so that Muslims would not fear this Quran too shall perish?

100 years? not in the early ages. As I said Allah is Just , its not as if you do something wrong then the next day you unfortunatley lose your life then end up in hell , God will fairly deal with each of us and we cannot speak for God's will, accept what is already stated, its up to Allah what that persons destination will be and and Allah is never unjust in his descision, (there are verses for these statements)

According to Islam, if someone dies today he is kept in limbo till the day of judgement, which I presume is a long way off. Then everyone is resurrected and participates in the judgement proceedings, which, according to Islamic texts, takes 50,000 years to complete. Very far fetched, I must say.

Really?, monotheism (beleif of one God) has existed since the beginning of time, fairy tales have existed in many generations its nothing new. Everyone is not meant to beleivers, but considering how 'old' hinduism and how the elephant is still worshipped, I still fail to see a single non-asian hindu. Just look around muslim numbers speak for themselves, from every part of the world, not like in hinduism where its just the high birth rates.

Monotheism may have existed from the beginning of time, but Islam was born in the Middle Ages in the Middle East, courtesy Mohammad. There is absolutely no proof that Islam existed before Mohammad except in Muslim writings. Allah always existed, is known in all religions through various names and expressions and is not the exclusive property of anyone. Islam is the product of Mohammad’s meditation, his coming into commune with Allah thereby and his expression of the higher truths. However, unlike other savants of religions, Mohammad had lapses from his higher consciousness and thus there are contradictions in the Quran.

Its seems the long exsistance of hinduism hasn't seemed to bring about many followers, whereas the muslim population is what? 1.8-9 billion. Quantity doesn't matter its about the quality, but this is just an example. Something like 70 -80 % of hindu's are from india? it just shows how the rest of the world is very convinced by hinduism

Isn't it ironic how all the animal Gods in hinduism are common animals in india? I mean why not a polar bear god? or a kangaroo god? Probably because the story tellers never saw the rest of the world, so their imagination was limited to what was common in india

Though Judaism, Christianity and Islam have common roots, the Judeo-Christian world and Islamic world are antagonistic. The same cannot be said of Hinduism and Buddhism. They share common grounds even today and it would be valid to count them as fellow-travelers in the spiritual world. Hindus and Buddhists put together are more in number than Muslims. Today the world is dominated and controlled by the Christian world which includes USA and Europe. It would be India and China’s turn tomorrow. The Muslim countries are lagging in world supremacy.

read my above post, God does not need us to beleive in him

Allah’s dire warning to humans of eternal roast in hell-fire if He is not worshipped belies the claim that Allah has no need for us to believe him.

Whats ironic about this?, before islam our prophet Muhammad would meditate in thought in the caves of makkah, Our prophet Solomon (Suleiman) built a temple in jeruselem

The Quran, as are all scriptures, is the voice of our spirituality - call that voice Allah or Krishna. That voice is always available at all places. Only we must delve within to hear the melody and express it. Mohammad delved deep, heard the voice of Allah and expressed it as the Quran. This is not unique. It has been happening without a break in India since time immemorial. It rarely happens in other countries. India is the true holy land of the world.

What? The prophets were the ones who taught us the word of God, it would be stupid not to believe in them, they have no status as near as God, I don't know why you feel everything needs to be worshipped and given divine status, seriously why?

I believe so because I am a Hindu and I have learnt that divinity resides everywhere.

not enough choice of Gods?, thats probably how hindusim came about, *Get your Gods in all shapes and sizes*. The Kaabah is the house of God as God commanded it to built by the prophet Abraham (Ibraheem), facing it gives muslims a since a of direction and unity as we all face the same way, in supplication we can lift our hands and pray towards any direction

Are you sure? ever heard of the old testement? Fear in God is what keeps most believers on the straight path otherwise everyone would take advantage of God's mercy

Again ever heard the Quran? its not a song. no-one can produce a verse like of the quran and this isn't the only reason why islam is the true religion

Quran might be the most fantastic book ever written as far as Arabic literature goes. I do not know Arabic and therefore I shall not challenge your assertion. But quote me one verse in the Quran that is unique as far its logic, philosophy, wisdom or uniqueness is concerned. I have read the Quran and its full of expression of the glory of Allah by Allah himself. It is also full of threats of dire consequences if we do not believe Allah.

Exactly, life did not exist before its creation, hence the heavens and the earth etc were created, that doesn't mean God didn't exist. These are things we don't have much knowledge about, there are things that only God knows, so we don't assume and simply say 'Allahu alim' (God knows best). Maybe if you are successful in the hereafter you can ask him yourself, but that point isn't a sufficent reason in not believing in Allah

My question was simple. Did Allah create life as claimed in the Quran? This is tantamount to saying that Allah created Himself. Do you believe that Allah created Himself? Allah always existed as life and that life is what we also are in essence, today in this form, tomorrow in another. When we become free from our forms, we go back to our Godhood.

 

[aadil77]

When you say, “you will see in the hereafter” are you not confirming that death does not kill me because after death I will be alive in the hereafter in a different form?

In a different form?, nope not an animal, get that clear. Every living being will be ressurected after death


If nothing else, we (Allah and us) share life in common. If you say this is not true you are only saying Allah has no life! Of course I am not talking here of life in the sense of having a good time, but of that principle which enlivens us.

What do you know about Allah? Nothing, clearly shown by your human association of God, Allah is nothing a human mind can interprete, he doesn't not nead to sustain by being alive, so leave it at that. God is nothing like a human being who requires life to be alive. You are stuck with this image of God that he is like US, remove this representation from your mind as it reflects the limitations of your own 'Gods'.

Life does not end. If it did, Allah also would die because he is a living God. Only forms change. Change into what is not generally known. But many great men have known their previous lives, including Buddha and have predicted their future lives, including Satya Sai Baba.

Living God? You clearly know nothing about the qualities of our God, he gives life and takes it away, Allah cannot die, he is Almighty, please stop associating your ridiculous beleifs to our God


Islam, which does not believe in reincarnation, says Allah would resurrect us and then we would live forever, either in heaven or hell. So who would inhabit heaven and hell? You and I. So how could it be said that we died? We would have taken on new forms in heaven or hell, but it would still be us. Otherwise who would Allah be rewarding and punishing?

How else does someone die? they are approached by the angel of death, he removes their soul, bang! they are dead, hence their heart stops beating, body rots etc. they are dead, again you are stuck with your ridiculous spiritual beleifs that somehow life isn't taken away, Forms? we aren't going change forms into animals, get it out of your head! We will still look like humans, move like humans etc. When we are ressurected are soul is given back to us etc


A story can always have great truths embedded in it. It fact, story-telling is a popular way of transmitting great and subtle truths. “What is the moral of the story” is a frequently asked question.

You see your beliefs are based on amusing stories, whereas ours are based on facts

But hasn’t Allah to bring to life all who died? Wouldn’t you then come alive? Then would you not conclude that death was only a change of form? Therefore even from Islamic point of view death is only a change of form.


Does this mean the mass of human beings who have already died without witnessing Islam would go to heaven to enjoy forever? From what you say, man needs to have many lives so that he has a chance to witness Islam.

Now adays who hasn't witnessed islam? Allah is Just, and will deal with everyone justly on the day of ressurection


Allah owns the whole planet but you say only Arabia is a holy land. You say disbelievers would not be allowed to enter certain parts of these lands. I wonder what sort of believers it was who had seized Mecca some years back and caused bloodshed? French troops had to be called in to restore order. I also wonder how many of those French troops were Muslims.

Yep so?, disbelievers aren't allowed to preach their beliefs in these lands or practise them openly

If everything is so crystal clear, why are fatwas often restored to? Why are there many schools of thought in Islam? Why has not anyone been able to resolve what the abbreviations at the beginning of many surahs in the Quran mean?

Every thing is crystal clear in islam, look at the majorities, they will share the key principle beleifs, the 'abrevetions' are something only Allah knows about, it does not affect islam

You say the Quran or a similar book was sent many times before too. Why have they disappeared? Is this the fate of the present Quran also? Is the assurance that this Quran will be protected by Allah inserted so that Muslims would not fear this Quran too shall perish?

Allah has his reasons for certain things, we never question them, as we don't know the reasons why and it is not relevent to us anyway or affect our beliefs. They have been changed and are inaccurate, the Quran has been memorised by many many muslims, so no it will not perish as this is a promise of Allah that it will not be changed even the slightest or perish


According to Islam, if someone dies today he is kept in limbo till the day of judgement, which I presume is a long way off. Then everyone is resurrected and participates in the judgement proceedings, which, according to Islamic texts, takes 50,000 years to complete. Very far fetched, I must say.

Yep, you'll witness it yourself mate

Monotheism may have existed from the beginning of time, but Islam was born in the Middle Ages in the Middle East, courtesy Mohammad. There is absolutely no proof that Islam existed before Mohammad except in Muslim writings. Allah always existed, is known in all religions through various names and expressions and is not the exclusive property of anyone. Islam is the product of Mohammad’s meditation, his coming into commune with Allah thereby and his expression of the higher truths. However, unlike other savants of religions, Mohammad had lapses from his higher consciousness and thus there are contradictions in the Quran.

Islam didn't exist before our prophet Muhammad, but the key beliefs did. Had lapses from his higher consciousness? are you hallucinating? You haven't even read the Qur'an or the hadith, how in the world do you know it has contradictions? Is every thing you say based on assumptions, in once sentence you managed to come to some stupid conclusion? Try and find me one contradiction mate, just one! Islam is perfect, nothing in islam contradicts it self like in the bible


Though Judaism, Christianity and Islam have common roots, the Judeo-Christian world and Islamic world are antagonistic. The same cannot be said of Hinduism and Buddhism. They share common grounds even today and it would be valid to count them as fellow-travelers in the spiritual world. Hindus and Buddhists put together are more in number than Muslims. Today the world is dominated and controlled by the Christian world which includes USA and Europe. It would be India and China’s turn tomorrow. The Muslim countries are lagging in world supremacy.

I don't give a crap about budhism of hindism, they are a load of bollocks to me. Again 'Hindus and Buddhists put together are more in number than Muslims' is this your last resort to show some kind of power? how many buddhist are there in the world? You assume everything and can't provide any proof

The estimations on the number of Buddhist in the world vary significantly, according to different sources available [9], between over 1.5 billion [10][11][12] and over 350 million [13]. However, it was difficult to estimate accurately the number of Buddhists because they did not have congregational memberships and often did not participate in public ceremonies. [14]

there is no accurate estimation of the amount of buddhists, and as a last resort you conlude that you and buddists share beleifs therefore form a major religion and are capable of 'world supremacy'

World supremacy? Islam will dominate the world near the end of time and if you're alive you will 'bear witness it'


Allah’s dire warning to humans of eternal roast in hell-fire if He is not worshipped belies the claim that Allah has no need for us to believe him.

Nope not really

The Quran, as are all scriptures, is the voice of our spirituality - call that voice Allah or Krishna. That voice is always available at all places. Only we must delve within to hear the melody and express it. Mohammad delved deep, heard the voice of Allah and expressed it as the Quran. This is not unique. It has been happening without a break in India since time immemorial. It rarely happens in other countries. India is the true holy land of the world.

I believe so because I am a Hindu and I have learnt that divinity resides everywhere.

Yep india truly is the holy land of the ugliest people in the world, have you noticed how the practising hindus are the ugliest, ironic no? I don't know if it has anything to do with the cow dung and urine



Quran might be the most fantastic book ever written as far as Arabic literature goes. I do not know Arabic and therefore I shall not challenge your assertion. But quote me one verse in the Quran that is unique as far its logic, philosophy, wisdom or uniqueness is concerned. I have read the Quran and its full of expression of the glory of Allah by Allah himself. It is also full of threats of dire consequences if we do not believe Allah.

Oh, so you have read the Quran? well read it more and you'll find plenty of those verses, I don't think anything I'll post will convince you until you realise the flaws in your own beliefs

My question was simple. Did Allah create life as claimed in the Quran? This is tantamount to saying that Allah created Himself. Do you believe that Allah created Himself? Allah always existed as life and that life is what we also are in essence, today in this form, tomorrow in another. When we become free from our forms, we go back to our Godhood.

I already told you that there are things us muslims do not know, things that only the Almighty has knowledge of. Not knowing these things isn't relevent to us and does not affect our beleifs.

Allah created life

Godhood? you poor soul - may Allah guide you

I'm not going to bother replying to you after, because you make no sense and base your posts on assumptions. You need to realise the flaws in your own beliefs and You don't have sufficient knowledge of islam to ask these sort of questions, learn about islam first then ask about things you're not clear on

peace

 

[K.Venugopal]

I thank all members for having taken up the question in my thread and shared their views on the subject. Everyone has verily participated with sincerity. However, I think this thread, which I intended to confine to just the question of "bearing witness" somehow got side-tracked and Hinduism was brought up. Even though a Hindu, I sometimes feel there is no meeting ground between Hinduism and Islam because the most basic and fundamental assumptions of both the religions are somewhat irreconcilable. (Hindus by and large believe that there is nothing that is irreconcilable.)

Be it as it may, I have commented on all responses in this thread except the last posting of Skye Ephémérine, where she felt that the discourse was getting preposterous and indicated that she no longer wishes to hear from me. I would also be unable to respond to aadil77 because in his last post he said he is not going to bother replying to me henceforth. The only other member whose post I have not responded is that of al Amaanah - not because she has had a quarrel with me, but because her argument is that the Quran is no poetry but a thing far greater than poetry can ever be. You can’t but let her have the last word for that stand.

I once again thank all members for having accommodated me. I look forward to continuing my participation on and off in this lively forum that is ISLAMICBOARD.COM.