What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?

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The "Torah" is comprised of many separate books and ideas. The חמישה חומשה תורה/Chumash are the "five books of Moses" (Bere****, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar and Devarim) then there are the נווים/Prophets which go from Yehoshua to Malachi. Mesora (tradition) dictates that there were three separate types of Torah given to Moshe at Har Sinai: תורה שבכתב/Written Torah תורה שבעל פה/Oral Torah (which was passed down until Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi compiled the oral tradition into the Mishna and later the Gemara), and lastly קבלה/Kabala which is the Hidden/Spiritual Torah. All of these make up what is referred to and has been referred to as "Torah". It has been expanded as well, to include works of Chasidut, Mussar and Halacha (Shulchan Aruch etc).
 
Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai. There is one known corruption of the Chumash. It was a sefer Torah from Yemen, and there was ONE LETTER in ONE WORD that was misspelled, and that letter was an "ayin" instead of an "aleph" (ar: ayn/alif) ע/א which make around the same sound depending on your pronunciation. Everything else from the Prophets down is subject to corruption and the Oral tradition was clearly corrupted considering the entire Talmud is disagreements between different Rabbis about Halachic issues.
 
ya.azad said:
Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai.
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This issue is well addressed in post no. 55. Kindly check it there.
 
ya.azad said:
The "Torah" is comprised of many separate books and ideas. The חמישה חומשה תורה/Chumash are the "five books of Moses" (Bere****, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar and Devarim) then there are the נווים/Prophets which go from Yehoshua to Malachi. Mesora (tradition) dictates that there were three separate types of Torah given to Moshe at Har Sinai: תורה שבכתב/Written Torah תורה שבעל פה/Oral Torah (which was passed down until Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi compiled the oral tradition into the Mishna and later the Gemara), and lastly קבלה/Kabala which is the Hidden/Spiritual Torah. All of these make up what is referred to and has been referred to as "Torah". It has been expanded as well, to include works of Chasidut, Mussar and Halacha (Shulchan Aruch etc).
Click to expand...

Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai. There is one known corruption of the Chumash. It was a sefer Torah from Yemen, and there was ONE LETTER in ONE WORD that was misspelled, and that letter was an "ayin" instead of an "aleph" (ar: ayn/alif) ע/א which make around the same sound depending on your pronunciation. Everything else from the Prophets down is subject to corruption and the Oral tradition was clearly corrupted considering the entire Talmud is disagreements between different Rabbis about Halachic issues.
Click to expand...

Peace

if all of these misconceptions were true, which they aren't [HERE, you will have to prove it], please explain why the Jews NO LONGER have their "once pure Hebrew with which they could describe the loftiest of holy concepts of prayer?"

and Jews pray 3 times a day, is this from Moses or Ezra?

and WHO wrote these prayers?

and why?

i say the Jews follow the religion of Ezra and NOT that of Moses. this is consistent with the Qur'an:


9:30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
9:31
to top
Sahih International
They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
9:32
to top
Sahih International
They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
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Jews follow Ezra and the Anshei Knesset Hagedolah INSTEAD of Moses. of course, they weren't called Jews before they did this.

Peace
 
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Asalaamu Alaikum,

Should read the book the Bible, the Quran and Science, has a good part about the Torah in it aswell :)
 
Pure Hebrew as it was 4000 years ago is still intact in religious texts, this is a fact.
The three prayers were established by Avraham (Ibrahim), Yitzhak and Yaakov/Yisrael respectively (Shaharit/Morning-Avraham, Yitzhak-Minha/Midday Arvit/Night - Yaakov/Yisrael)
The prayers were originally prayed after Karbanot (Sacrificial offerings) Which ceased upon the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash (Temple), and are now simply prayers. The text of the prayers as seen in Siddurim is a supplement/crutch to the required "conversation" with God.

Ezra was a false Messiah with no relation or significance to changes in the religion, he is recognized as such by all Jews.
People such as Ezra and Jesus are recognized by Judaism (yes, there are stories about Yehoshua M'Natzerat/Joshua-Jesus of Nazareth in the Gemara) as Jews who strayed from the Derech (way) of Hashem (God) and mislead others.

Jews are called Jews because the Assyrians killed all the tribes that were not "yehuda" yehuda=Judah Judah=Jew.

The Jews contemporary to Jesus and Muhammad (from the later temple period to exile from Eretz Yisrael) are recognized as corrupt by mainstream Judaism and do not in any way reflect Judaism as it is today.
Judaism as it is today is in all likelihood NOT the Judaism of Moshe Rabeinu, though the core concepts are intact.



BTW I am simply stating facts that do not reflect my personal views.
 
ya.azad said:
The Jews contemporary to Jesus and Muhammad (from the later temple period to exile from Eretz Yisrael) are recognized as corrupt by mainstream Judaism and do not in any way reflect Judaism as it is today.
Judaism as it is today is in all likelihood NOT the Judaism of Moshe Rabeinu, though the core concepts are intact.



BTW I am simply stating facts that do not reflect my personal views.
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So what u are saying is that all jews from period of prophets jesus and muhammad (pbut) are corrupt, while the later jews till today are mainstream?

Also, could u please enlighten us more about the kabbala a.k.a spiritual Torah as u stated previously, and what do u mean by hidden?. I have honestly read some disturbing things about kabbala related to promiscuity and sex and things that are completely ungodly, maybe u can clear this up.
 
Not at all. The Jewish leadership during that period was, for the most part, corrupted. Individual Jews are not and cannot in any way be generalised as such. Jews today, for the most part, are actually uninformed and highly ignorant as to their religion and its roots. Movements such as "reform" "reconstructionist" "renewal" "conservative" are all entities that seek to limit Jews knowledge of true Judaism. Before movements such as this, every Jew learned about his/her religion and, conforming to Halacha, formed their own "brand" of personal spirituality and relationship with Hashem. "Orthodox" is a word coined by these movements to refer to the multitude of TYPES of true Judaism (or truer, at least), in an attempt to legitimise their laziness. The vast majority of Jews in the world, whether they identify as religious or not, do not know what they should about Judaism.

Kabalah, as "studied" by popstars such as Madonna and whoever else is NOT and has NO RELATION to true Kabalah. Kabalah is an intense way of spiritually viewing the world and connecting to God. Tradition tells us that it was also given at Har Sinai. The Zohar is the main text of Kabbala and was written by a rabbi named Moshe de Leon, from Spain. He in turn took the text and philosophy from an earlier and very well known Rabbi named Rav Shimon Bar Yochai, who was taught by older rabbis, going back and back. The Zohar is extremely potent in its spirituality and its very hard to understand its TRUE meaning without a lot of background knowledge, hence it is VERY EASILY misconstrued. In terms of the Zohar and sex, sex in Judaism is viewed as a Mitzva (Commandment) to engage in with your spouse (going back to Berei****/Genesis "פרו ורבו"/"be fruitful and many") Promiscuity is
a sin in the same category as murder and adultery.

Another school of thought based on Kabalah, focusing on Happiness and Spirituality was founded by HaRav Yisrael Baal Shem Tov (Rav Yisrael ben Eliezer). He felt that Judaism needed a spiritual reawakening and made it his focus to "translate" works of Kabbalah for those who were not as educated as needed to understand such texts as the Zohar. Followers of this school of thought (Hasidut חסידות) are called חסידים "Hasidim". Most of the world identifies them as "those crazy jews who wear the earlocks and black hats". However there is much, much more than that in their history.
 
ya.azad said:
Pure Hebrew as it was 4000 years ago is still intact in religious texts, this is a fact.
The three prayers were established by Avraham (Ibrahim), Yitzhak and Yaakov/Yisrael respectively (Shaharit/Morning-Avraham, Yitzhak-Minha/Midday Arvit/Night - Yaakov/Yisrael)
The prayers were originally prayed after Karbanot (Sacrificial offerings) Which ceased upon the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash (Temple), and are now simply prayers. The text of the prayers as seen in Siddurim is a supplement/crutch to the required "conversation" with God.

Ezra was a false Messiah with no relation or significance to changes in the religion, he is recognized as such by all Jews.
People such as Ezra and Jesus are recognized by Judaism (yes, there are stories about Yehoshua M'Natzerat/Joshua-Jesus of Nazareth in the Gemara) as Jews who strayed from the Derech (way) of Hashem (God) and mislead others.

Jews are called Jews because the Assyrians killed all the tribes that were not "yehuda" yehuda=Judah Judah=Jew.

The Jews contemporary to Jesus and Muhammad (from the later temple period to exile from Eretz Yisrael) are recognized as corrupt by mainstream Judaism and do not in any way reflect Judaism as it is today.
Judaism as it is today is in all likelihood NOT the Judaism of Moshe Rabeinu, though the core concepts are intact.

BTW I am simply stating facts that do not reflect my personal views.
Click to expand...

Peace,

it seems your "facts" are in dispute:

Pure Hebrew as it was 4000 years ago is still intact in religious texts, this is a fact.
Click to expand...

Thus, to fulfill the Biblical commandment of prayer, one need not say certain words at certain times, but rather, at some point every day – or many times a day if one wishes – to turn to G-d and connect to Him on a personal level. That is the Mitzvah of prayer.

And so it was in ancient times – from the days of Moses through the First Temple Era – Jews would fulfill the Biblical commandment of prayer in exactly this way. However, after the Jews were exiled to Babylon, the general population lost the art of arranging meaningful prayers on their own. Their once pure Hebrew with which they could describe the loftiest of holy concepts became muddied and the common Jew was no longer able to compose eloquent praises or supplications.

Source - Rabbi Shais Taub:

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/577,2080045/Is-it-a-Mitzvah-commandment-to-pray.html

The three prayers were established by Avraham (Ibrahim), Yitzhak and Yaakov/Yisrael respectively (Shaharit/Morning-Avraham, Yitzhak-Minha/Midday Arvit/Night - Yaakov/Yisrael)
Click to expand...

Thus, Ezra the Scribe and his court composed a standard text for every Jew. By using this script which includes in it general references to all matters one might wish to discuss with G-d, everyone would be sure to address G-d as articulately as possible. Each Jew’s personal signature, so to speak, would be in the feelings aroused in the heart during prayer.

Ezra and his court also enacted that Jews should pray at set times. Today one prays three times every day -- morning, afternoon and evening -- and four times on Shabbat, Biblical Holidays and Rosh Chodesh. Nevertheless, if one feels like speaking to G-d at any other time, one may and should do so as well. Indeed, that is the actual mitzvah from the Torah; that’s what it means to serve G-d with the heart.

same source

Ezra was a false Messiah with no relation or significance to changes in the religion, he is recognized as such by all Jews.
Click to expand...

They were a group of 120 sages, amongst them several prophets, headed by Ezra the Scribe. Among the more prominent among them were: Mordechai of the Purim story, and Daniel, as in Daniel in the lion’s den. (Others included Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Zerubavel, Nehemiah son of Chachalayah, Chananiah, Mishael and Azaryah.) Shimon Hatzadik was the last of the Great Assembly.

Ezra established this Great Assembly in Israel shortly after the beginning of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (which began with the completion of the Second Temple in 349 BCE).

They instituted such many basic Jewish practices as the recitation of Kiddush on the Sabbath, Havdalah after the Sabbath, prayer three times a day, the Amidah prayer, and recitation of blessings before eating.

It is said that this “assembly” lasted about 200 years but their structuring of Jewish life is still intact to this very day.

source - Rabbi Yossi Marcus:

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/...sset-Hagedolah-Men-of-the-Great-Assembly.html

that suggests MAJOR disagreement with your "facts!"

or, at it was said in the movies: "what we have here is a failure to communicate!"

:D

Peace
 
Pure Hebrew does NOT equal ability to "arrange prayers"
The Hebrew read in the Chumash is indeed the original Hebrew that it was given in, don't twist Rabbi Taub's words. I'm sure he would agree with me.

And the court you speak of was called the "Sanhedrin" and was both pre Ezra and post Ezra.

Also we are speaking of a different Ezra. There was an Ezra around the time of Bar Kochba who claimed he was Mashiach. I was not aware that the Qur'an was referring to Ezra HaSofer. (Who was not viewed as a messiah, he simply (along with the rest of the sanhedrin) made halachic rulings dealing with the destruction of the temple, in order for Judaism to stay current.
 
ya.azad said:
Also, in regards to corruption: The Chumash (which is what is contained in every Torah scroll throughout the world) has NOT been corrupted in any way shape or form as long as you are reading the original Hebrew text. Jews from Iran to Poland to China to Ethiopia to South Africa have all used the exact same text since the revelation at Har Sinai. There is one known corruption of the Chumash. It was a sefer Torah from Yemen, and there was ONE LETTER in ONE WORD that was misspelled, and that letter was an "ayin" instead of an "aleph" (ar: ayn/alif) ע/א which make around the same sound depending on your pronunciation. Everything else from the Prophets down is subject to corruption and the Oral tradition was clearly corrupted considering the entire Talmud is disagreements between different Rabbis about Halachic issues.
Click to expand...

This link:

http://livingtheway.org/sopherim.html

says:

[SIZE=+1]There was, at one point in history, an organized attempt, by the very scribes who copied the Hebrew scriptures, to change certain words and phrases in the scriptures. One of the things that they did was to remove God’s name from scripture in 134 verses! 134 times, these scribes removed the name of God and substituted "Adonay," often out of reverence and respect for God’s name, and a wish not to blaspheme God’s name by using it too often.[/SIZE]


And in my copy of Rotheram's translation "The Emphasized Bible" there is a footnote to Habakkuk 1:12 which reads:

""All the ancient records emphatically state that ... the original reading was ... "Thou diest not" ... Rashi (1040-1105) makes this the basis of his explanation" - G. Intro. p. 358 [The Sopherim changed it to: "We shall not die."]"

 The tampering or changing of the sacred text of the scriptures by the Jewish Sopherim or scribes was apparently done with a good motive. It was an attempt to remove anything in the Bible that seemed to be disrespectful or unseemly respecting God. Nevertheless, what these scribes did was completely wrong.
 
This link:

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app32.html

says:

[SIZE=+4] The 134 Passages Where The Sopherim Altered "Jehovah" to "Adonai". [/SIZE]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+2] This Is Appendix 32 From The Companion Bible. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] Out of extreme (but mistaken) reverence for the Ineffable Name "Jehovah", the ancient custodians of the Sacred Text substituted in many places "Adonai" (see Appendix 4. viii. 2). These, in the Authorized Version and Revised Version, are all printed "Lord". In all these places we have printed it "L[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]", marking the word with an asterisk in addition to the note in the margin, to inform the reader of the fact.
The official list given in the Massorah (§§ 107-15, Ginsburg's edition) contains the 134.
Genesis 18:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]3,27,30,32[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 19:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 20:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Exodus 4:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10,13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 5:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 15:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 34:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9,9[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Numbers 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Joshua 7:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Judges 6:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 13:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]Kings 3:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10,15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 22:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]Kings 7:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 19:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Isaiah 3:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17,18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 4:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 6:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1,8,11[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 7:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14,20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 8:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]7[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 9:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8,17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 10:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]12[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 11:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 21:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6,8,16[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 28:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 29:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 30:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 37:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]24[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 38:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14,16[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 49:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Ezekiel 18:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]25,29[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 21:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 33:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17,29[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Amos 5:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]16[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 7:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]7,8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 9:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Zechariah 9:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Micah 1:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Malachi 1:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]12,14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Psalm 2:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 16:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 22:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19,30[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 30:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 35:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]3,17,22[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 37:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]12[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 38:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9,15,22[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 39:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]7[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 40:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 44:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 51:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 54:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 55:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 57:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 59:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 62:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]12[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 66:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 68:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11,17,19,22,26,32[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 73:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 77:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2,7[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 78:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]65[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 79:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]12[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 86:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]3,4,5,8,9,12,15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 89:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]49,50[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 90:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1,17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 110:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 130:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2,3,6[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Daniel 1:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 9:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]3,4,7,9,15,16,17,19,19,19[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Lamentations 1:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14,15,15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 2:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1,2,5,7,18,19,20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 3:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]31,36,37,58[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Ezra 10:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]3[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Nehemiah 1:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 4:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Job 28:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]28[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] To these may be added the following, where "Elohim" was treated in the same way :- [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]Samuel 5:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19-25[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 6:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9-17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]} Where the Authorized Version has "L[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]."
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]Chronicles 13:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]12[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10,11,14,16[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 16:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Psalm 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1,2,5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 53:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1,2,4,5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1].} Where in Authorized Version and Revised Version it still appears as "God". It is printed "G[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]OD[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]" in the Companion Bible. [/SIZE][/FONT]
 
I ask this question everywhere but no answer ; was there an uncorrupted Torah or Ingil around during Mohammeds time. If there was where was it ? , and if it didn't exist why would Mohammed tell his followers to repect something that didnt exist.
 
Even within you own Quran i read somewhere that different reciters had differences when it came to certain Surah and Mohammed accepted this. When I looked it up the History of how the Bible and the Quran went from oral to written form were fairly similar except that all the original scrolls weren,t burned so we can always check back. I believe that there is even a possability that a lot of Verses were lost in Battle when reciters were killed and that there is a rumour of a goat eating some Scrolls.

But if God wants to preserve his word I'm certain he could so if God allowed his word to be corrupted why would he send it?

So I have no reason to believe that the Torah or Bible or Koran has been Corrupted so that its message is no longer God revealed even if its expressed in different words or phrases if the Doctrines are maintained intact.

Love and respect
 
to Hiroshi it would be interesting to put the word Jehovah back in these places to see what effect that has on the verses or interpretations if any.
 
we have a saying " You cant have your cake and eat it " but its amazing that Muslim scholars do just that in their logic about the Torah and the Bible. If it agrees with the Quran its true if it doesn't its corrupted and the only arbiter in this is themselves. Talk about the ultimate in a rigged game. I keep asking the same question if there was an uncorrupted version of the gospels or Torah around in Muhammeds lifetime where was it and if there were none why would he even suggest respecting them at all.
 
3rddec said:
we have a saying " You cant have your cake and eat it " but its amazing that Muslim scholars do just that in their logic about the Torah and the Bible. If it agrees with the Quran its true if it doesn't its corrupted and the only arbiter in this is themselves. Talk about the ultimate in a rigged game. I keep asking the same question if there was an uncorrupted version of the gospels or Torah around in Muhammeds lifetime where was it and if there were none why would he even suggest respecting them at all.
Click to expand...


That is what the Quran is 'the criterion' what is on concert with Islamic teachings is accurate, what isn't is an addendum/subtractions/embellishment or complete fabrication .. either way the previous scriptures are entirely irrelevant or as of much relevance as the OT and its laws to a christian... God isn't the god of a few Israelite and god isn't a self immolating man sent to the lost Israelite (Matthew 15:22) God is God to all (Islam) end of story!

all the best
 
said:
we have a saying " You cant have your cake and eat it " but its amazing that Muslim scholars do just that in their logic about the Torah and the Bible. If it agrees with the Quran its true if it doesn't its corrupted and the only arbiter in this is themselves. Talk about the ultimate in a rigged game. I keep asking the same question if there was an uncorrupted version of the gospels or Torah around in Muhammeds lifetime where was it and if there were none why would he even suggest respecting them at all.
Click to expand...

Muslims believe the quran is totally true, and, they don't need to find proofs for that.
Muslims believe the original versions of Torah/Bible were truthful, but then these versions were corrupted by people. Obviously some parts of Torah are corrupted and some other parts kept some of their original form/meaning. So logically from a muslim perspective who belive quran is true, has the following deduction : (1) the parts in torah that conform to quran are true, (2) the parts contradicting quran are false, (3) the parts that are not mentioned in the quran (neither contradicting nor conforming to quran) are to be left without interpretation (we don't deny them and we can't confirm them).

Now, because Christians and Jews don't belive the quran is a holy book, how can muslims prove to them that some parts in the bible/torah are wrong ?
There is 2 arguments that both muslims and people of the book agree upon :
1) Using logic/scientific/moral inconsistence of the verses in question.
2) Use the parts of the bible/torah that muslims belive are true (and of course christians/jews believe are true) and show them that other verses in the torah/bible are in contradiction with those verses.

hope this clarifies something.
 
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I,m still waiting for the answer to when exactly the Torah got changed and the Bible ; was there still an uncorrupted version around at the time of Mohammed or not and if there was where was it. If there wasnt then why would Muhammed say

Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e. you believe in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), while they disbelieve in your Book, the Qur'ân].

Muhammed doesn't say part of any of the books, he clearly states that these muslims believe in the Torah and the Injeel, why if they are corrupted ?

It begins to look like you are refusing to believe Gods word and even commiting the greatest sin as Christ calls it by Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by refusing to believe it if it contradics your view of the Quran and then trying to absolve yourself with an unproven myth about changing Gods words.

At what point did the Injeel get corrupted ; and by who ; some proof would be nice. And I mean a change that caused some change in doctrine as opposed to saying the same thing with a slightly different phrase.

Surely with all the available jewish and christian historic scrolls and books that werent burned can be used to find these changes; a much easier job than for scholars to check on the sources for the quran as they either died in battle or the scrolls were burned once the Caliph settled on the version he was happy with.

Im sorry if i seem a little frustrated but I keep asking the question with no one providing me with an answer so I can reseach it?
especially as it seems to be such a primary belief for Muslims asking for somr Proof does not seem unreasonable.

LOVE and RESPECT
 

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