What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Quran?

[Keltoi]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea taht I hear about and is it different in the Qur

...but the God that Adam had a personal relationship with in the Garden of Eden was not the same as the one that you have a relationship with. Adam had absolutely no concept of God dying on the cross in order to cleanse him of his sins; whereas, you do. Would not your experience of God be qualitatively different and quantitatively greater than that of Adam? I speak from the sense of enormous gratitude and love that I had felt as a Christian that God would sacrifice Himself on the cross for lowly me.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "not the same God", because we believe it to be the exact same God. True, Adam could not have known his sin in the Garden would stain all mankind or that the Son of God would accomplish atonement. However, he is said to have had a deep communion with God, probably much deeper than any man or woman since.

 

[Keltoi]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

A personal relationship with God is what every Muslim should strive for, through prayer and pleasing Him with righteous actions. Salat is the best means to achieve nearness to Allah, because when you are praying you are presenting yourself to Allah and beseeching Him to answer you.

Christians often speak of God "residing" in them or God being inside them, which sometime Muslims confuse and take literally. However, what they really mean is that God is not inside their body, but is working through them, i.e. He is guiding people toward Himself through a person. Christians and Muslims have very different terminology which is part of the reason for misunderstanding betweent he two religions.

I agree. Good post.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea taht I hear about and is it different in the Qur

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "not the same God", because we believe it to be the exact same God.

Yes, of course it is the same God as there is only One, but Adam's concept and experience of God did not include Him being born of a woman to die on the cross for his sins. If I may presume, the focus of your concept of God as a Christian is that very critical issue as illustrated by I Cor. 15:3-4, at least I know it was for me.

 

[mkh4JC]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea taht I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Yes, of course it is the same God as there is only One, but Adam's concept and experience of God did not include Him being born of a woman to die on the cross for his sins. If I may presume, the focus of your concept of God as a Christian is that very critical issue as illustrated by I Cor. 15:3-4, at least I know it was for me.

You could make the argument that they did know. Adam and Eve still were given the concept of blood sacrifice as illustrated by Cain and Abel's offerings to God, and they knew that the seed of the women would crush the head of the serpent, as God told them after their fall, so they had some idea as to what God would do. They knew the Savior would come from a woman, and they knew what he would do would be related to blood sacrifice.

 

[barney]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea taht I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Well, it is still referring to the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were sheltered from the reality of sin in the Garden. .

Heya Kelt.

Do I understand you mean that sin existed in the garden, and perhaps they were already sinning,(by being naked). The sin only became punishable when they were no longer living in ignorance?

So Gods initial Plan for Humanity was for them to live in ignorance and therefore to all intent, without sin. They only mucked it up by getting clever.

If so, shouldnt we all be trying to get back to being ignorant again, if that was what god wanted?

 

[Keltoi]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea taht I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Heya Kelt.

Do I understand you mean that sin existed in the garden, and perhaps they were already sinning,(by being naked). The sin only became punishable when they were no longer living in ignorance?

The sin was disobeying God. It had nothing to do with being ignorant, unless you mean ignorance of sin.

So Gods initial Plan for Humanity was for them to live in ignorance and therefore to all intent, without sin. They only mucked it up by getting clever.

Clever? I wouldn't call it clever. They refused to heed God's command to them and were tempted into sin. Perhaps the Serpent convinced them that they were being "clever", but when they did not obey God and ate of the tree of Knowledge, a world of sin, pain, suffering and death was unleashed upon the world. Perhaps in this instance ignorance was bliss.

If so, shouldnt we all be trying to get back to being ignorant again, if that was what god wanted?

How would we become ignorant of sin now? The world is now drenched with it. There is no going back.

 

[barney]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Cheers for the response.
I was heading along the route that it was by eating the fruit of the tree of knowlage that they became knowlageable, and therefore could see that they had sinned.

Unleashing a world of pain suffering and death does seem a bit harsh for scrumping apples, but it was probably a favorite tree.
I often think of the verses around the Tower of Babel. Yahweh saying "Cripes! Theyre going to be up here with us (whoever "Us" are in monotheism).
Gods do tend to be packed out with jelousy and fear of mankind progressing.Apples of knowlage and towers that reach heaven.

 

[Uthman]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Hi barney,

(whoever "Us" are in monotheism).

It may be the Majestic Plural. At least that is what is used in the Qur'an when Allah says us and we.

Regards

 

[Keltoi]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Cheers for the response.
I was heading along the route that it was by eating the fruit of the tree of knowlage that they became knowlageable, and therefore could see that they had sinned.

Unleashing a world of pain suffering and death does seem a bit harsh for scrumping apples, but it was probably a favorite tree.
I often think of the verses around the Tower of Babel. Yahweh saying "Cripes! Theyre going to be up here with us (whoever "Us" are in monotheism).
Gods do tend to be packed out with jelousy and fear of mankind progressing.Apples of knowlage and towers that reach heaven.

It wasn't that Adam and Eve were supposed to be stupid until they ate of the tree of knowledge, but that they were exposed to the reality of good and evil. Hence Paradise was lost.

As for scrumping apples...I think you are missing the point entirely. The point is that Adam and Eve ignored God's command to them and fell into temptation. However, as I have mentioned in a discussion with Mustafa, it would stand to reason that God already knew Adam and Eve would fall into temptation. The question would then be for what purpose did He allow it to happen? By reading Genesis it appears that God obviously had a plan for humankind, and the test between good and evil was fundamental to it.

 

[*Hana*]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

You say God knew Adam and Eve would sin. So doesn't it seem cruel and unjust that He would create them to sin and then punish them for doing exactly as He created and ordained?? Actually, not only them, but the entire world for generations to come when none of us had the option to prevent it?? :hmm:

Hana

 

[Keltoi]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

You say God knew Adam and Eve would sin. So doesn't it seem cruel and unjust that He would create them to sin and then punish them for doing exactly as He created and ordained?? Actually, not only them, but the entire world for generations to come when none of us had the option to prevent it?? :hmm:

Hana

Well, if God didn't know what would happen that would sort of cause problems with His omnipotence would it not? Keep in mind this is simply my belief and not something that is necessarily taught in Sunday school. If you take the OT and the NT as a larger whole it would seem obvious that there was a divine plan in place.

As for whether it is just or not, I think that depends upon your outlook. From a Christian standpoint, God wants to have eternal fellowship with us. However, He doesn't simply want "yes" people, or mindless flesh and blood that exist without free will of their own. God had knowledge of good and evil, and perhaps to achieve that eternal fellowship with His creation, that creation must also have knowledge of good and evil. Through free-will, we must choose good over evil. Then perhaps we can hope to be worthy of that fellowship.

Again, that is simply my personal belief after years of reading Genesis in the context of the Bible as a whole. I know many other Christians take this view as well, but I'm not sure its exactly scriptural. Some questions remain unanswered.

 

[barney]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Kelt. I would have to say that yahweh/jesus certainly does want Yes people.
Anyone who slightly disagrees with his commands, man woman, child or unborn human featus is cast into indescribable torment forever and ever. For infinity.

Try to prop up a falling ark of the covenant without express instructions? Sentance Death.
Get a little ticked off at Mum? sentance Death by stoning by the whole city.
Laugh at a prophet? Death by Bears.
Take a census when God tells you to? Death for 70000 people and your own child.

One of the main take home messages of Christianity and Judism is , do-not-ever-question-god. Why? because you will die. Now or in the "hereafter".

Jesus/Yahweh and indeed Allah cannot ever be described as needing "yes men". Allah is aloof from all human concerns, we exist on his whim. Were we to rebel we would surely be destroyed?

 

[Keltoi]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Kelt. I would have to say that yahweh/jesus certainly does want Yes people.
Anyone who slightly disagrees with his commands, man woman, child or unborn human featus is cast into indescribable torment forever and ever. For infinity.

Try to prop up a falling ark of the covenant without express instructions? Sentance Death.
Get a little ticked off at Mum? sentance Death by stoning by the whole city.
Laugh at a prophet? Death by Bears.
Take a census when God tells you to? Death for 70000 people and your own child.

One of the main take home messages of Christianity and Judism is , do-not-ever-question-god. Why? because you will die. Now or in the "hereafter".

Jesus/Yahweh and indeed Allah cannot ever be described as needing "yes men". Allah is aloof from all human concerns, we exist on his whim. Were we to rebel we would surely be destroyed?

Each time a person commits a sin they are rebelling against God. Yes, if God simply wished to destroy all of us He could certainly do that.

As for the main "take home message" of Christianity, it is salvation through Jesus Christ. True, one is not encouraged to question God by any stretch of the imagination, but that is not the "take home message" of Christianity.

 

[Follower]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

GOD gave Adam and Eve and all of us a freewill. To either follow His Law or not. Come to Him or stray away from Him. Adam and Eve chose not to just like so many of us today!!

 

[barney]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Isnt a personal relationship based on a two way conversation. I cant have a personal relationship with my cup of coffee or my shoes, and my personal relationship with my pint of beer although more fullfilling isnt quite a personal relationship.

Since the only communication is outgoing hope, could someone explain how the personal relationship works?

 

[mkh4JC]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Isnt a personal relationship based on a two way conversation. I cant have a personal relationship with my cup of coffee or my shoes, and my personal relationship with my pint of beer although more fullfilling isnt quite a personal relationship.

Since the only communication is outgoing hope, could someone explain how the personal relationship works?

Well, God through the Holy Spirit has ways of communicating with you. It's very hard to explain to someone who is not initiated. Like I could give some examples. I'm a baby in Christ, so I don't know everything, but certain times when I'm trying to explain something here on this site from a Christian perspective the Holy Spirit will step in and caution me against things that I have written. Not with a voice mind you, but he has his ways of communicating with you as a Christian.

Or like, just the other day, I was checking out the Beatles page on Wikipedia, because they are about to license their music to be used in a videogame, and I was just curious about them as a group. Well at the outset I just felt very weird, or agitated. The best way to describe it I guess is to say that I was grieving the Holy Spirit, and he was communicating this to me. But I continued to read, and then I got to the controversy section and read what John Lennon said about Christianity. So those are just some examples, and there's other ways that God can communicate with you, but perhaps if you can't consider something like this to be a possibility then there's no need to share any of the others.

 

[barney]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Isnt that simply your own hangups over certain things? Instilled by a christian background.

For example, The Beatles are a internationally mega famous band, their use of drugs is known by anyone who has a vague passing knowlage of music. Lennons Imagine is played tens of thousands of times a day. In it he sings Imagine a world with no religion. If your subconciousness dosnt kick in with a christian inspired guilty shiver then you must be pretty broadminded or not serious about faith.

Heres an experimant.
Pauline Mc Lynn
Afan
Michael Travasser
Nicky Smedley

Read these names. The Holy spirit should guide you....without wiki.......... to the name that give you a bit of a shiver.

Give it a shot.

 

[mkh4JC]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Isnt that simply your own hangups over certain things? Instilled by a christian background.

For example, The Beatles are a internationally mega famous band, their use of drugs is known by anyone who has a vague passing knowlage of music. Lennons Imagine is played tens of thousands of times a day. In it he sings Imagine a world with no religion. If your subconciousness dosnt kick in with a christian inspired guilty shiver then you must be pretty broadminded or not serious about faith.

Heres an experimant.
Pauline Mc Lynn
Afan
Michael Travasser
Nicky Smedley

Read these names. The Holy spirit should guide you....without wiki.......... to the name that give you a bit of a shiver.

Give it a shot.

No, I felt nothing reading those names. And I honestly didn't know much about the Beatles until I visited Wikipedia. I'm an African American male who grew up in Detroit, Michigan, not exactly a great place to learn about and listen to Beatles music.

 

[barney]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

No, I felt nothing reading those names. And I honestly didn't know much about the Beatles until I visited Wikipedia. I'm an African American male who grew up in Detroit, Michigan, not exactly a great place to learn about and listen to Beatles music.

Afan is a Saint from the 500's AD
Nicky Smedly is the actress who plays Laa Laa, the yellow tellytubby who gives joy to millions of Kids
Pauline Mc Lynne, is the actress who plays Mrs doyle, Father Teds house keeper in a series called Father Ted which rips religion to peices
Mike Travasser is a living prophet, the messiah who is currently in US detention for peadophillia.

So with a lack of general knowlage of these people, who are obscure and yet have varying greatness goodness and evil in them, the Holy Spirit diddnt chime in.

We can sign that one off as a "Do not test the lord thy god" optout clause.

 

[mkh4JC]

Re: What is this "personal God" idea that I hear about and is it different in the Qur

Afan is a Saint from the 500's AD
Nicky Smedly is the actress who plays Laa Laa, the yellow tellytubby who gives joy to millions of Kids
Pauline Mc Lynne, is the actress who plays Mrs doyle, Father Teds house keeper in a series called Father Ted which rips religion to peices
Mike Travasser is a living prophet, the messiah who is currently in US detention for peadophillia.

So with a lack of general knowlage of these people, who are obscure and yet have varying greatness goodness and evil in them, the Holy Spirit diddnt chime in.

We can sign that one off as a "Do not test the lord thy god" optout clause.

Well, you have to consider context. If someone just types the word Satan alongside a list of other names, I don't think I would have grieved the Holy Spirit in that instance. But if I began reading a webpage that describes devil worship, then the Holy Spirit will become grieved and try to shield me from what I am digesting.