What is your take on these claims?

[kritikvernunft]

The prophet slept on the floor - do Muslims have to do that? The prophet was a merchant do we all emulate to become merchants? He rode a camel - dump cars and ride camels? He wore 7th century Arab and Yemeni clothes do we we emulate that? The prophets message is for all times the message of tawhid just like the previous prophets.

Good that you are telling me about that!
Yes, I am already a merchant in ways, but I also agree to ride a camel (but not every day!), and wear 7th-century Arab and Yemeni clothes.
Seriously, I agree to emulate the Prophet in everything he did. ;-)

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Greetings,

My question is what is there to prevent an Islamic adult male from marrying and having sex with a 9 year-old, should he wish to do so?

Peace

My question is why is this adult male implied to be more significant in this equation? Surely, his wishes are easily thwarted if there was no one ever offering his or her daughter in marriage at a young age in any culture.

So, the prevailing question in my opinion should concern what is not preventing this 9 year-old from marrying at that age? The answers usually have to do with extreme poverty, familial values, lack of opportunity for educational advancement, societal pressure, and cultural norms. Surprising as it may be to you, religion has very little to do in terms of the role it plays in the the specific family's choices usually in this matter. Please remember Islam never said that such marriages must take place or even that such marriages are meritorious; Islam has left the choice largely up to the culture and family and individuals involved.

Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) had received a divine dream in which Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was seen, and this divine dream is categorized as wahi (Revelation) and no other human being can claim the same since wahi (Revelation) has been understood to have ended with his :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) death.

However, since others cannot make the same claim of a divine dream or endorsed divine order, my question to you is what do you think should exist to prevent this male adult from marrying this hypothetical 9-year old? National legal bans? They already exist in many Muslim-majority countries. This hasn't worked in indigent Muslim-majority countries, however, and I should mention that this cultural practice is not unique to Muslim-majority countries as indigent non-Muslim majority countries have the same cultural practice.

I do not endorse child marriages, but I refuse also to condemn it, because as you know I'm a cultural relativist.

@Zafran is right that there are things unique to Prophet Muhammad :saws: and his time that we're not required to emulate such as traveling on horseback or camels, as we now have faster modes of transportation with technological advancement that include cars, vans, airplanes, etc. I would not say this is about disregarding or accepting this part of his :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) blessed life; rather, it is about how individuals within each culture understand to be acceptable for their sons or daughters.

If you do want to change this cultural practice, I'd say your best bet is to hinge your arguments based in Islam about why child marriage in that culture despite being the prevailing norm is not ideal as it is not in the best interests of children by using medical or psychological evidence of some harm that results to children and then say what Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) had said about taking care of children:

Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) has said, "Fear Allah and treat your children fairly."

Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "The parents are responsible with regard to their children in the same manner in which the children are responsible with regard to their parents" which refers to the concept of meeting the needs of any and all persons under your care.

Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "O Muslims, O fathers and mothers, O my followers, be kind and compassionate towards children, for someone who is not kind to children has no place amongst the Muslims."

Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "I give my Salaam to children and respect them, and Muslims should follow my behavior and always be warm and loving with children."

In focusing on the male in question, you are barking up the wrong end of the tree, as there is nothing really to prevent from any man from to live and act on his desire to live as he sees fit within his own society and practice what his culture and freedom of choice allows him.

 

[kritikvernunft]

... child marriage in that culture despite being the prevailing norm is not ideal as it is not in the best interests of children by using medical or psychological evidence of some harm that results to children ...

Yes but what experiments did they conduct, that other people could repeat in order to find counterexamples for this so-called "evidence"?
If there are no experiments that we can repeat, in that case, we are not talking about science but about ideological conjecture.

Why would we exempt this particular claim from the existing anti-alchemy -and anti-astrology policies in science?
There are very good reasons why these anti-alchemy -and anti-astrology policies were originally instituted in the first place.

Therefore, sorry, there will be no exemption whatsoever.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

So, the prevailing question in my opinion should concern what is not preventing this 9 year-old from marrying at that age? The answers usually have to do with extreme poverty, familial values, lack of opportunity for educational advancement, societal pressure, and cultural norms. Surprising as it may be to you, religion has very little to do in terms of the role it plays in the the specific family's choices usually in this matter.

I'm aware of all of this. You're still missing the point.

Please remember Islam never said that such marriages must take place or even that such marriages are meritorious; Islam has left the choice largely up to the culture and family and individuals involved.

I never even implied that it did. The problem is that a supposedly omniscient God for some reason had no objection to a child marriage. Incidentally, I'm aware that the marriage to Aisha was a happy one and that she was an important figure in Islam and generally rather a remarkable woman. I'm not disputing any of that.

However, since others cannot make the same claim of a divine dream or endorsed divine order, my question to you is what do you think should exist to prevent this male adult from marrying this hypothetical 9-year old? National legal bans? They already exist in many Muslim-majority countries.

Yes, and I support such bans. The question is why do they exist in Muslim countries? Why do humans think that they know better than God in this case?

This hasn't worked in indigent Muslim-majority countries, however, and I should mention that this cultural practice is not unique to Muslim-majority countries as indigent non-Muslim majority countries have the same cultural practice.

None of which makes it right.

I do not endorse child marriages, but I refuse also to condemn it, because as you know I'm a cultural relativist.

Well, perhaps that's the difference between us. I take the view that a culture which bans child marriage is better than a culture that does not. Even though poor or primitive societies may practise child marriage for eminently understandable reasons, that does not make it a good thing.

@Zafran is right that there are things unique to Prophet Muhammad :saws: and his time that we're not required to emulate such as traveling on horseback or camels, as we now have faster modes of transportation with technological advancement that include cars, vans, airplanes, etc.

I'm not saying you're required to emulate it.

If you do want to change this cultural practice, I'd say your best bet is to hinge your arguments based in Islam about why child marriage in that culture despite being the prevailing norm is not ideal as it is not in the best interests of children by using medical or psychological evidence of some harm that results to children

This is absolutely correct. I wonder why God apparently couldn't see this.

In focusing on the male in question, you are barking up the wrong end of the tree, as there is nothing really to prevent from any man from to live and act on his desire to live as he sees fit within his own society and practice what his culture and freedom of choice allows him.

I'm sorry, I can't make sense of this sentence. "to prevent from any man from to live"? Do you mean people are free to do what they like within the law? If so, this is obvious, and doesn't address the question of why God would allow a practice that is known to be frequently harmful to children.

Peace

 

[aaj]

Greetings,


My question is what is there to prevent an Islamic adult male from marrying and having sex with a 9 year-old, should he wish to do so? You can either take the view of our anarchist friend here and say that you see no reason to prevent it, or give a different answer. But do not just ignore the question.

Well, the law for one. Most nations have laws against marrying underage girls and in today's society a 9 year old would qualify as an underage girl. I think you are just trying to make a mountain out of a mole. This is a moot issue. Almost all Muslims would not consider this an option nor something they are interested in.

This is the biggest red herring of all, and is a very simple way of avoiding the issue completely. The point that so many of you seem to be forgetting is that we are talking about a Prophet (pbuh) whose every deed has been scrutinised by Muslims with a goal towards emulation of him. This is a person who has offered guidance for all time (as we are so often reminded). I'm asking Muslims why they should choose to disregard this part of his exemplary life.

Peace

I understand what you are trying to say but you are trying to discuss a topic without full knowledge of it. Yes, the Prophet (pbuh) is an example for us to follow. Yes, the sunnah (way of the prophet) is following what he did in his life. But that sunnah is of two kinds. One sunnah is what he did in accordance with Islam, such as not eating some food (pork). And one sunnah (his way of doing) is what he did personally, such as eating some food and not other out of personal taste and preference. We are obligated to follow the religious sunnah, not personal lifestyle and choices sunnah. Even in religious sunnah, there were certain things that were only allowed for the Prophet (pbuh) and not to his people. For example, he had more than 4 wives while the limit for us is only up to 4. This marriage was also a divine intervention, otherwise at age six she was already engaged to a non Muslim, Jubayr ibn Mut’im.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, aaj,

I'm already aware of everything you've said. You are, like most people here, missing the point. Either answer my questions directly or don't bother replying. The only person who has answered directly is kritikvernunft, who has said that he sees nothing wrong with marrying underage girls, he intends to do just that, and he also intends to kill anyone who tries to stop him. He's clearly either joking or insane, but at least he's answered the question.

Well, the law for one. Most nations have laws against marrying underage girls and in today's society a 9 year old would qualify as an underage girl.

How come modern humans realise marrying and having sex with 9 year-old girls is wrong, but God didn't?

Peace

 

[kritikvernunft]

...who has said that he sees nothing wrong with marrying underage girls, he intends to do just that...

The family would still need to make sure to bring their prettiest girl, because otherwise I may snub their offer. I am taking a risk here. So, they will have to entice me with a really cute one. If I can clearly see that they have prettier daughters than the one they are offering to me, I will not take their intentions seriously.

...and he also intends to kill anyone who tries to stop him...

Yes, of course.

He's clearly either joking or insane, but at least he's answered the question.

The goal is to cause lots of mayhem, and the instrument is to marry an "underage" girl.
(In Islamic doctrine, she would not be "underage", because she would already have here periods).
So, yes, my intention would be to stir up a lot of ****.
The purpose would be to cause spectacular amounts of damage to anybody trying to prevent such marriage, with a view on discouraging them to try to do that ever again.
So, indeed, the idea is that the severed arms and legs should start flying around! ;-)

 

[noraina]

We didn't say it is wrong, at least for Muslims, just that in accordance with the part of Shariah known as Urf (social customs) it wouldn't be possible today in most countries in the world.

As has been said, the sunnah means literally the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), and there is a distinction between his own personal perferences or local customs of the time and those traditions which were significant religiously. For example, actually getting married is a highly emphasised religious sunnah, getting married to a 9-year-old girl or woman many years older than you is not religiously binding on anyone, not that it is wrong, but it depends on local customs and laws of the country you are in.

In Islamic law, as long as they do not contradict with Islam, Muslims are expected to obey the law of the land they are in. So if the age limit for marriage is set at 16 or 18 years, it isn't wrong for Muslims to obey that and they are in fact encouraged to.

This type of argument comes from a eurocentric point of view, we need to remember different times and culturals meant different social customs. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Muslims are expected to obey the law of the land they are in.

As you know, Karl Marx so nicely argued that religion is an opium-like instrument to enslave the masses to the interest/riba-infested financial elites.

This is most certainly true for Judaism and Christianity. "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "Obey the law of the land" are clearly examples as to why Karl Marx was utterly right. It all amounts to exploitation of the poor, the uneducated, and all the other gullible individuals. Therefore, an important condition for the revolution to succeed, and to get rid of the self-serving interest/riba-infested financial elites, was to duly terminate these false religions. That is why the revolution became an exercise in organizing a killing fest amongst their clergy.

Islam has never been mentioned by anybody as a pillar for the National State and its self-serving interest/riba-infested financial elites. By adopting the notorious Jewish Talmudic doctrine "Obey the law of the land (and its self-serving riba/interest-infested elite)", why do you want to turn Islam into an opium-like instrument to enslave the masses to interest/riba, and other depravities of the obnoxious elite?

As you can imagine, if the clergy tries to protect the corrupt elites of the National State by arguing in favour of their false, pagan and man-made laws, and their other riba/interest-infested practices, they will have repurposed the religion as a tool to make people obey to obnoxious man-made law. From there on, they will also run into serious trouble with the revolutionaries. How will they avoid getting decimated? They should not expect the revolution to spare them, as they have made friends with the riba/interest elites and have sided against the believers.

 

[noraina]

as long as they do not contradict with Islam, Muslims are expected to obey the law of the land they are in

This is the full quote. Riba/interest is haraam, hence Muslims should of course not obey . I specifically stated as long as it isn't anything forbidden, Muslims should obey the law of the land. Islam encourages balance and moderation, so full on rebellion for the sake of rebellion or 'going against the state' wouldn't be beneficial for us Muslims or for society. We follow our deen without compromise and also go according to social customs where we live as long as it doesn't compromise our deen.

 

[kritikvernunft]

so full on rebellion for the sake of rebellion or 'going against the state' wouldn't be beneficial for us Muslims or for society.

It is necessary to put a halt to the practice of inventing man-made law. How many more new man-made laws do we need, before all our needs for new man-made laws will completely have been satisfied?

Furthermore, the National State protects the banking system, which is completely riba-infested. The National State is full of debt and sucks the population dry with taxes, to make interest/riba payments to the banks, and their powerful owners, the financial elites.

Therefore, this is certainly not "rebellion for the sake of rebellion". Everybody is looking for ways to get rid of "Wall Street", while you seem to have repurposed Islam as an opium-like tool to keep these riba/interest-infested financial elites in place, by adopting the vocabulary, ideas, and even the exact language of the Jewish-Babylonian Talmud.

Dina d’malchuta dina, the law of the land is the law [and must be obeyed]. If the "authorities" tell you to step on the train to Auschwitz, you must obey! The Jews are still complaining today about the fact that they did not know that it was better not to obey to man-made law, but wasn't this just the blank cheque in their own Jewish Law, to the rulers of the land, backfiring at them?

 

[aaj]

Greetings, aaj,

I'm already aware of everything you've said. You are, like most people here, missing the point. Either answer my questions directly or don't bother replying. The only person who has answered directly is kritikvernunft, who has said that he sees nothing wrong with marrying underage girls, he intends to do just that, and he also intends to kill anyone who tries to stop him. He's clearly either joking or insane, but at least he's answered the question.

How come modern humans realise marrying and having sex with 9 year-old girls is wrong, but God didn't?

Peace

Greetings Gibson,

I believe Noraina has answered your question.

And like i said in my first post, you need to learn to comprehend things in their historical context. This is not something the prophet(pbuh) did against the norm of his society, this is not something his society did against the norm of the world. This is not something constraint to that time period alone.

Today western world has set an arbitrary number as the "legal adult" age. A century from now, you may be called pedos for that very number. So quit trying to blame God for everything, Islam did not set an arbitrary number. All it said was that when a girl hits puberty (sign of womenhoood) and is ready (mentally, emotionally, physically, etc), which varies from time to time, society to society and person to person.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I am closing this thread as rather strange comments are being made and some are using the discussion to push their anti-Islamic agenda. The issue of marrying at a young age is being conflated with the issue of child abuse. How odd that individuals are latching onto one or two details of Islamic teachings yet conveniently ignoring all the rest. And how perplexing that a simple issue is being twisted to insinuate errors on the part of God or His Prophet :saws:. We seek refuge in Allaah :swt: from such ignorance.

A lot of terms are being thrown around such as 'missing the point', 'red herrings' or failing to answer the question. It seems any attempt to view an Islamic issue within its context and entirety will be dismissed by such misplaced accusations.

Perhaps it's sufficient to quote a snippet of an article from 'The Guardian':

The Islamophobic depiction of Muhammad's (pbuh) marriage to Aisha as motivated by misplaced desire fits within a broader Orientalist depiction of Muhammad (pbuh) as a philanderer. This idea dates back to the crusades. According to the academic Kecia Ali: "Accusations of lust and sensuality were a regular feature of medieval attacks on the prophet's character and, by extension, on the authenticity of Islam."

[...]

Aisha's union would also have cemented Muhammad's (pbuh) longstanding friendship with her father, Abu Bakr. As was the tradition in Arabia (and still is in some parts of the world today), marriage typically served a social and political function – a way of uniting tribes, resolving feuds, caring for widows and orphans, and generally strengthening bonds in a highly unstable and changing political environment. Of the women Muhammad (pbuh) married, the majority were widows. To consider the marriages of the prophet outside of these calculations is profoundly ahistorical.

What the records are clear on is that Muhammad (pbuh) and Aisha had a loving and egalitarian relationship, which set the standard for reciprocity, tenderness and respect enjoined by the Qur'an. Insights into their relationship, such as the fact they liked to drink out of the same cup or race one another, are indicative of a deep connection which belies any misrepresentation of their relationship.

To paint Aisha as a victim is completely at odds with her persona... she went on to become one of the most prolific and distinguished scholars of her time.

A stateswoman, scholar, mufti, and judge, Aisha combined spirituality, activism and knowledge and remains a role model for many Muslim women today. The gulf between her true legacy and her depiction in Islamophobic materials is not merely historically inaccurate, it is an insult to the memory of a pioneering woman.

Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad (pbuh) lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates. ​

So, as members have already noticed, cherry-picking and misconstruing points to push misleading conclusions is unacceptable and a disservice to yourselves. There's plenty of previous threads (as you very well know) which detail the contextual information to help understanding this issue. May I also remind some of our Muslim members to avoid speaking about Islam without knowledge.

Thread closed.