What makes something good?

[Hugo]

Harmonization is only needed for the bible on the account of differing stories all completely at odds. If you have a long chain of narrations all attesting to one thing, then there is no need for 'harmonization' we don't call it 'harmonization' we call it 'fabrication'!!
I don't see a need to 'harmonize' given the Quran by an angel. we have the Quran in pur possession and hadith completely different style of writing, the Quran written and spoken so that the most eloquent poets of the time couldn't produce the shortest sura akin to it (being three verses) do we need to see the bee to know where the honey came from? articles of faith need no harmonization, anymore than 'miracles' need harmonization you either believe them or you don't! Nothing is going to be watered down or switched to cater to Hugo or be in concert with Hugo's wants so that all books can be taken down to the lowest common denominator and be akin to the conundrum that is the bible or the christian faith! Muslims have no need to re-write history, they have no need to go into zionist books and change words from Nakbah into denial to suit their purposes and further their agenda: you should start a website on drivel and nonsense.. I think there is a market for that!

I think you are missing the point. The Qu'ran's content cannot be corroborated by anyone, it is technically hearsay and never can be anything else. Secondly, it is absolutely preposterous to even suggest that Muslims have not or cannot manipulate history to their own ends - EVERY Muslim scholar knows this, that is why there is a science of hadith - unless you think that all those thousands of suspect hadith were written by Jews or Christians or little green men? Why don't you go and read what Bukhari has to say and the methods he used?

 

[syed_z]

I think you are missing the point. The Qu'ran's content cannot be corroborated by anyone, it is technically hearsay and never can be anything else. Secondly, it is absolutely preposterous to even suggest that Muslims have not or cannot manipulate history to their own ends - EVERY Muslim scholar knows this, that is why there is a science of hadith - unless you think that all those thousands of suspect hadith were written by Jews or Christians or little green men? Why don't you go and read what Bukhari has to say and the methods he used?

Quran's comparison with Bible, was done NOT by Muslims, but by European Christians in Germany ... and Quran was Unchanged while Bible had thousands of Errors...

please view this...

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/134293101-has-quran-changed.html



And Hadith literature has also proved to be written down word to word from the Days of Prophet Muhammad (Saw)... and i can give you proof for that as well...

 

[جوري]

I think you are missing the point. The Qu'ran's content cannot be corroborated by anyone, it is technically hearsay and never can be anything else. Secondly, it is absolutely preposterous to even suggest that Muslims have not or cannot manipulate history to their own ends - EVERY Muslim scholar knows this, that is why there is a science of hadith - unless you think that all those thousands of suspect hadith were written by Jews or Christians or little green men? Why don't you go and read what Bukhari has to say and the methods he used?

No points are missed since we have already discussed witnesses to the events and 'corroborations' which you refuse to accept, not only making it tedious to address the same points over and over but tells one clearly that you have no indication of an exchange or a willingness to learn.. secondly merely saying that 'Muslims have manipulated history' and they all know this is as empty as just about everything else you write hopefully you can see that, since wasting your time is all fine and dandy but wasting mine is something I take seriously .. the methods of Isnad for hadith are given to you in full in a book in your possession by Dr. Al-Azami.. perhaps if you'd spend less time searching the net for Ibn Waraq statements and read actual scholarly books in full you wouldn't ask the same questions over and over and make a complete fool of yourself time and again?

Don't you get tired of being so resistant to anything that doesn't cater to your views that you have to repeat it all over like a schizophrenic and never be remedied after pages and pages of supported text, and in the end you bring an article from wikipedia or a former apostate? that is how you level allegations whilst alleging free of bias?

 

[Zafran]

I think you are missing the point. The Qu'ran's content cannot be corroborated by anyone

yes it can - one word Muttawatir.

 

[Muezzin]

I am not sure what this post is saying, is it opening another stream of ideas and in this case that academic debate is not good, never good? If that is the case then I refer you to my post 187 which is about actions. Also you seem to be dismissing science because often, very often it begins with an idea, an idea that may have no practical relevance. For example, Boolean algebra when it was first proposed was just a curiosity of no more value that that. Similarly, Einstein's theory of relativity had no physical proof and lingered like that as just an academic discussion for 11 years until a British Astronomer verified one of its his predications. One can move this to the spiritual realm where for instance talk about heaven or hell can only be academic since there is no material evidence for either. Might be an interesting direction for this thread.

Alternatively, you may have been giving an example of intention and action?

Well, I intended the post to illustrate my scepticism about these kinds of debates. There will never be an objective standard of 'good' and 'evil', partly because they are impossible to quantify and partly because people, even when they're doing the morally wrong thing, tend to see their actions as justified, often because they're acting in their own self-interest, or the interests of those they care about. No villain thinks he's a bad guy.

That is not to say morality has no place in society - of course it does, it is an imperative pillar of civilisation. And it's not to justify clear injustice, even if the unjust do not think they are behaving in such a manner.

But here's the thing - different societies and cultures have different moral codes. Which can to lead to, or exacerbate, conflict when different societies, or even different individuals, meet.

Do certain peoples, cultures or religions have superior moral codes to others? That is for the individual to decide in light of the information presented to them.

P.s. I'm not sure how simply describing a discussion as 'academic' constitutes a dismissal of science... What gave you that impression?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

A woman in Islam , whether Virgin or older, cannot be married against her will, girls who are children, their consent cannot be taken as they are young and not mature enough to think for themselves... it is when a Girl is mature and reaches the age of puberty is when she is allowed to give her consent to marry and her consent become Legally acceptable in Islam...


In Islam, specifically in Quran, it is the Husband and Wife both, of their mutual agreement is needed for all decisions regarding family matters..... and if one of them is immature then there cannot be a successive marriage life.... in Islam a girls needs to be mature .....




Prophet Muhammad (Saw) said "Whoever supports 2 daughters daughters till they mature, he and i will come in the day of Judgment as this (and he pointed with his two fingers)"

he said till they mature....


Also there is an event recorded in which a Girl came to Prophet (Saw) to complain that her parents were forcing her to marry, and he gave her the choice to reject the marriage, because if she does not consent then it CANNOT be a marriage....


Ibn Abbass (r.a) reported that a girl came to Messenger of Allah (Saw) and reported that her father had forced to marry without her consent. The Messenger of Allah (saw) gave her the choice (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it) (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469) In another version the girl said "actually i accept this marriage but i wanted the women to know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)." (Ibn Majah No. 1873)


So how can there be a marriage of a Child, who hasnt reached puberty and is immature with any person in Islam ? it is not permissible in Islam...

Sorry brother, don’t you need to correct this? I mean parents are allowed to "promise" their child to a man before puberty. When the child is older she can refuse but have to seek divorce like in Yemen (although sometimes divorce is refused). So if that is the case, then this can be categories under "marriage" since the young girl has to seek for divorce. And I read many scholars and preachers have said this. Bilal Phillips and Zakir Naik is a few out of many preachers that have said this. And many scholars have said this.

Edit: I deleted the last sentence because of ignorance. Ignore my ignorance. I am sorry if I caused offence and confusion.

 

[جوري]

Aslam ​

Title

Enacting Laws Specifying the Age of Marriage​

Question

Recently, we have heard about some Muslim countries issuing laws stating a minimum age for marriage. Is there a minimum age for marriage in Islam? Is enacting such laws permitted? ​

Date

18/Oct/2003​

Name of Counsellor

`Atiyyah Saqr, Husam al-Din Ibn Musa `Afana​

Topic

Marriage​

Answer​

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear questioner! Thank you for your question and the confidence you place in our service, and we pray to Allah to enable us render this service purely for His Sake.


As far as the issue of enacting laws specifying the minimum age of marriage, this issue is subject to debate among Muslim scholars. Some of them say that the ruler cannot enact such a law, while others say the ruler is entitled to issue such laws as long as the public interest of the society is maintained.


Shedding more light on this issue, the prominent Muslim scholar Dr. Husam Al-Din Ibn Musa `Afana, professor of Fiqh and the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at the University of Jerusalem, Palestine states:


"There is much fuss about the issue of early marriage with many calls to delay the age of marriage. Here I wish to start with some texts that encourage Muslims to hasten marriage. Almighty Allah says: “And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.” (An-Nur: 32) Almighty Allah also says: “marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four” (An-Nisaa’: 3) The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: “O young people! Who of you is able to marry, let him marry, for this will help him lower his gaze and preserve his chastity. As for him who is unable to marry, let him fast for this will help him stop the (evil) desires.” Also in a hadith, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “…and I marry women. So, whoever abstains from following my example does not belong to me.”


From all these texts, it is clear that as far as Islam is concerned, there is no specific minimum age for marriage. Muslim scholars even said that a minor boy and girl who are under the age of puberty can get married.


Scientifically and medically speaking, the real meaning of early marriage for a girl is that marriage that takes place before a girl starts to menstruate. As for branding marriages that take place before the age of 18 as early marriages, this has no scientific or legal basis. The whole issue of marriage depends on reaching the age of menstruation. Once the girl has reached the age of menstruation, she is no longer out of the scope of marriage.


According to a scientific study conducted by the Jordanian University, the age of the onset of menstruation world-wide is between 9 and 16 years of age, while in the Arab countries it is between 11 and 12 years.


I’d like to say to those who oppose early marriages that the Personal Status Act that prevents the marriage of minors is based on the juristic point of view which prevents that marriage.


The Act stipulates that girls not marry before they reach the age of 15 and that boys not marry before they reach the age of 16. These are the average ages of the onset of puberty for girls and boys that render them legally responsible. Hence, the call to delay the age of marriage of young people until they are 18 or over presumes that they are not responsible for their actions and prevents them from exercising their right of freedom.


According to trustworthy scholars, authentic reports proved that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) married `A’ishah, Mother of the Faithful (may Allah be pleased with her) when she was nine years old. I have never come across a reference that contradicts that.


Based on the above mentioned, I conclude that it is not permitted to pass a law specifying the age of marriage to be 18 and above, for this causes great hardship.


Though I encourage young people to marry at an early age, yet I see also that they should wait until they are graduated. But this does not mean that I oppose marriages at an age earlier."


On the same subject, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh `Atiyya Saqr, former Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, adds:


"In the first volume of my Muslim Family Encyclopedia, I noted that early laws showed no care to determine the age of marriage. Roman Emperor Justinian was the first one to set the age of marriage for females at 12 years and 14 for males. After the advent of Christianity in Europe, such a law was no longer followed. Mary Stewart married Henry VIII when she was only six. Early marriages were predominant in some Eastern countries and are still carried out in places like India.


Islam does not specify a certain minimal age for marriage; rather, it placed a certain age for shouldering religious obligations in general. This age is the age of puberty, either by natural sign (the ability to ejaculate semen for a boy and menstruation for a girl) or by reaching the age of 15 lunar years. However, reaching this age is not necessary for validating the marriage contract, for it is up to the guardians to conduct marriages before [the bride or groom or both] have reached this age.


In spite of the fact that there is no specific age for marriage in Islam, it is preferred to make it early so as to protect young people, both males and females, from deviation. However, this may lead in certain cases to placing some hardship on the shoulders of the parties involved due to the financial and other responsibilities entailed by marriage. Based on this understanding, I think that enacting some laws to specify the age of marriage, as done by some governments, is a good step. However, these governments should take into consideration all the circumstances relating to the subject and specific to the society. Obeying the ruler in following such laws is surely an obligation so long as they bring about benefit to the whole society. Almighty Allah says: “O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the Messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end." (An-Nisaa’: 59)"


Based on the above fatwas, it can be said that the issue of enacting laws specifying the age of marriage is governed by the public interest of the Muslim society taking into consideration the Shari`ah-based objectives in this regard."


Also read:

The Philosophy of Marriage in Islam

The Islam's Stand on Early Marriages

Addressing Misconceptions about Prophet’s Marriage to `Aisha
​

Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547512#ixzz0spolMZXi


​

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Edit: ignore whatever you saw. Ignore my ignorance and offence. Sorry for any confusion I caused with any new revert or muslims starting to learn Islam.

 

[syed_z]

Asalaam o Alaikum to all....

thanks for the Article sister Lilly...

Sorry brother, don’t you need to correct this? I mean parents are allowed to "promise" their child to a man before puberty. When the child is older she can refuse but have to seek divorce like in Yemen (although sometimes divorce is refused). So if that is the case, then this can be categories under "marriage" since the young girl has to seek for divorce. And I read many scholars and preachers have said this. Bilal Phillips and Zakir Naik is a few out of many preachers that have said this. And many scholars have said this.

In fact child marriages are permissible under Islam.

Hope your doing fine Sister... well from what you have said... i know that Proposals DO take place... but before the actual Marriage ceremony, the Girl HAS to be asked at the time of Nikah (Marriage) ... 'Do you Agree'... if she says NO then that marriage is unacceptable...

for the Law of Yemen, i think this is a very unfair Law.... because how could a proposal be equivalent to Marriage ? The soul reason for Proposal to be a Proposal is that once the girl and boy are mature, then they can accept or reject the Marriage, which is a their Right given by Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw)... so no one has the right to make it automatically in to a Marriage Contract and then the girl/boy are stuck and they have to RUN around to get it cancelled, leaving them at the mercy of corrupt judges and lawyers... this doesn't make any sense right ?

So if Yemen does such, then that is Unfair Practice and it seems very much against what Allah has given us our rights to excercise.... its like taking your right of accepting or rejecting ... so may Allah (Swt) guide those in Yemen...

 

[syed_z]

Salaam Sister sweet 106...

you remember that there was this Post ..'Marriage' in which we had discussed the issue of Aisha (r.a) marriage to Muhammad (Saw) ?

we already have done it soo many times ... just asking why do we need to bring it up again...


So im sure you understand.. there is no need of discussing it as we already have done it... and as life goes on, different Scholars will give their opinions regarding that Marriage... i would say, and i hope you agree.... that ....Allah Knows best about it... simple...

 

[Zafran]

Asalaam o Alaikum to all....

thanks for the Article sister Lilly...







Hope your doing fine Sister... well from what you have said... i know that Proposals DO take place... but before the actual Marriage ceremony, the Girl HAS to be asked at the time of Nikah (Marriage) ... 'Do you Agree'... if she says NO then that marriage is unacceptable...

for the Law of Yemen, i think this is a very unfair Law.... because how could a proposal be equivalent to Marriage ? The soul reason for Proposal to be a Proposal is that once the girl and boy are mature, then they can accept or reject the Marriage, which is a their Right given by Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw)... so no one has the right to make it automatically in to a Marriage Contract and then the girl/boy are stuck and they have to RUN around to get it cancelled, leaving them at the mercy of corrupt judges and lawyers... this doesn't make any sense right ?

So if Yemen does such, then that is Unfair Practice and it seems very much against what Allah has given us our rights to excercise.... its like taking your right of accepting or rejecting ... so may Allah (Swt) guide those in Yemen...

salaam

I agree with you clearly a women has to say yes for the marriage for it even take palce - thats the whole point of the Nikah.

peace

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Asalaam o Alaikum to all....

thanks for the Article sister Lilly...







Hope your doing fine Sister... well from what you have said... i know that Proposals DO take place... but before the actual Marriage ceremony, the Girl HAS to be asked at the time of Nikah (Marriage) ... 'Do you Agree'... if she says NO then that marriage is unacceptable...

for the Law of Yemen, i think this is a very unfair Law.... because how could a proposal be equivalent to Marriage ? The soul reason for Proposal to be a Proposal is that once the girl and boy are mature, then they can accept or reject the Marriage, which is a their Right given by Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw)... so no one has the right to make it automatically in to a Marriage Contract and then the girl/boy are stuck and they have to RUN around to get it cancelled, leaving them at the mercy of corrupt judges and lawyers... this doesn't make any sense right ?

So if Yemen does such, then that is Unfair Practice and it seems very much against what Allah has given us our rights to excercise.... its like taking your right of accepting or rejecting ... so may Allah (Swt) guide those in Yemen...

Why is such practices called marriage then? Why do many educated scholars call it marriage? They shouldnt call it marriage or marrying someone if parents promises the girl to the man.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salaam Sister sweet 106...

you remember that there was this Post ..'Marriage' in which we had discussed the issue of Aisha (r.a) marriage to Muhammad (Saw) ?

we already have done it soo many times ... just asking why do we need to bring it up again...


So im sure you understand.. there is no need of discussing it as we already have done it... and as life goes on, different Scholars will give their opinions regarding that Marriage... i would say, and i hope you agree.... that ....Allah Knows best about it... simple...

I did not want it brought up again, but didnt the prophet peace be upon him marry Aisha (r.a) aged six then had intercourse aged nine. Thus that means children can be promised to marriage right? But the actual marriage has to be when they are mature?

 

[syed_z]

Why is such practices called marriage then? Why do many educated scholars call it marriage? They shouldnt call it marriage or marrying someone if parents promises the girl to the man.

There are many misguided people in the world sister... and so there can also be scholars among them... im not saying that All scholars are misguided .... but what Muhammad (saw) said... i read the Hadith which are one of the Minor Signs of the Last Days... in which Muhammad (Saw) did say ....


“In the last times men will come forth who will fraudulently use religion for worldly ends. They will wear long woolen garments (sign of Sufi). Their tongues will be sweeter than sugar, but their hearts will be the hearts of wolves." (Tirmidhi)


... governments hiring Scholars, like specially governments like Pakistan, Egypt, Yemen, they all have Puppet regimes backed by USA and other Western Countries, and for the Money they are ready to give any Fatwa in favor of the Oppressive Regime... so i see it that way.... also there are many 'Scholars' these days who are misguided....

they give Fatwas which rather than solving problems, increase them.... so you need to understand the World and future according to what Muhammad (saw) prophesied.... we live in the Age of Ignorance.... this is true... so you have to be careful... just read Quran with famous Tafsirs, and keep asking Allah for guidance...

 

[syed_z]

I did not want it brought up again, but didnt the prophet peace be upon him marry Aisha (r.a) aged six then had intercourse aged nine. Thus that means children can be promised to marriage right? But the actual marriage has to be when they are mature?

well the last time we discussed... you closed the topic and then there was no more discussion... so even if you Want to discuss the Marriage of Children in the Light of Islam, then there is no point of bringing marriage of Aisha (r.a) with prophet Muhammad (Saw)... again ... because the marriage is NOT a marriage unless the Girl accepts it consciously or has the ability to think for herself, knows whats right whats wrong....


and about your question children are NOT necessarily supposed to be proposed when they are young in Islam... it is NOT obligatory or something... it depends different cultures different places... Most Muslims don't do it...

And Yes the Actual marriage is only when they are mature, and able to think for themselves ....

 

[Zafran]

well the last time we discussed... you closed the topic and then there was no more discussion... so even if you Want to discuss the Marriage of Children in the Light of Islam, then there is no point of bringing marriage of Aisha (r.a) with prophet Muhammad (Saw)... again ... because the marriage is NOT a marriage unless the Girl accepts it consciously or has the ability to think for herself, knows whats right whats wrong....


and about your question children are NOT necessarily supposed to be proposed when they are young in Islam... it is NOT obligatory or something... it depends different cultures different places... Most Muslims don't do it...

And Yes the Actual marriage is only when they are mature, and able to think for themselves ....

salaam

Yes and one hadith isnt a good enough to prove to make an entire ruling on it, I'm sure many of us would agree that the marriage of the prophet pbuh and aisha (ra) clearly was for a specfic reason.

peace

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

well the last time we discussed... you closed the topic and then there was no more discussion... so even if you Want to discuss the Marriage of Children in the Light of Islam, then there is no point of bringing marriage of Aisha (r.a) with prophet Muhammad (Saw)... again ... because the marriage is NOT a marriage unless the Girl accepts it consciously or has the ability to think for herself, knows whats right whats wrong....


and about your question children are NOT necessarily supposed to be proposed when they are young in Islam... it is NOT obligatory or something... it depends different cultures different places... Most Muslims don't do it...

And Yes the Actual marriage is only when they are mature, and able to think for themselves ....

Okay brother

understood. not marriage just promise. Sorry I just read it and watch lot of people calling it marriage. Oh I closed the topic because I thought most of things were answered. Just to make sure I am clear, the promise of marriage of a child is allowed but the actual marriage isnt. Understood.

I was just confused.com

You forgot to include saudi arabia into that list.

Thanks

 

[syed_z]

@Zafran... Agreed brother...


@Sweet106.... may be many would disagree with me... i think and i have reasons to believe Saudi Arabia, is the main cause of Disunity in the Ummah... they are NOT playing the role which they should, as being Custodians of the 2 Holy Mosques...

 

[Pygoscelis]

So from what you guys have written above, Islam forbids marriage before a woman is menstruating and it must be of her own choosing? And yet the Prophet married a woman at 6 years old? How is this conflict resolved? Or is it not seen as a conflict? Are 6 year olds seen as able to make informed decisions on this matter?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

So from what you guys have written above, Islam forbids marriage before a woman is menstruating and it must be of her own choosing? And yet the Prophet married a woman at 6 years old? How is this conflict resolved? Or is it not seen as a conflict? Are 6 year olds seen as able to make informed decisions on this matter?

The prophet peace be upon him did not marry her aged six, there was consensus amongst her parent in particular her father and the prophet Mohammed. Otherwise she would have lived with him but she did not. In fact, she moved out once she was mature and agreed to marry him. Does that make sense?