What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?

[Ramadhan]

Does Sol Invictus represent either your or Islam accurately when he concludes that Allah exhibits the dimensions of space?

Sol Invictus' argument is flawed because it already made presumption that Allah is inside heavens. Time and space is inherent nature of the heavens, while Allah is outside the heavens.
Bring me an ayah where it says Allah is inside the heavens.

 

[Grace Seeker]

This clearly and unequivocally illustrates that the god you worship is different from Allah (swt) whom I worship.

Or at least that we have a different understanding of God's nature and the way he relates to humankind.

The point of my rhetorical question is that God can't be fully or even partially embodied within Jesus' (as) body as it is an absurdity.

OK. Glad you clarified. I truly wasn't aware that it was a rhetorical question. I thought it was one in which you were honestly seeking to understand where as a Christian I was coming from. Sorry for wasting our mutual time in a discussion that you weren't really having with me.

Sol Invictus did not speak the truth with what he wrote and neither do you in repeating it. I see it as a vain attempt to misdirect the attention away from the questions that I asked regarding the incarnation of God within the body of Jesus (astaghfir'Allah) which are pertinent to this thread.

Well, I didn't make any ascertion of what was or was not truth. I asked a question in order to understand what Islam understood to be truth with regard to the "space" that Allah occupies or if that idea is even consonant within Islam. Your rhetorical question made it seem as if it was. I see now that it was only an attempt at deceiving me. I'm trusting that the material you provided from *********** can be better trusted to speak to Islam's understanding of "where" Allah is to be found. Now, for your information, my own view with regard to heaven as a "place" actually is not far from what is reflected by one of those quotes:

Imam Abu Mansur `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi in Usul al-Din says: "The correct position according to us is the interpretation of the Throne in this verse to mean the sovereignty, as if He meant that the sovereignty has not been established for any but Him. This interpretation is taken from the saying of the Arabs: "So-and-so's Throne has toppled" if he lost his power." He then cites three examples from poetry illustrating this. He says about the characteristics of Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a in his al-Farq bayn al-firaq (The differences between the sects): "Ahl al-Sunna are in consensus that Allah, the Flawless, the Exalted, is not bounded by location." He then reports the saying of Sayidina `Ali: "Allah created the Throne as an indication of His power, not for taking it as a place for Himself."

Despite references made to "looking up" or "going up" into heaven, I see the location of heaven (and thrones and thronerooms) to be a metaphor refering not to a place as much as a concept. That concept being the sovereignty of God. Thus heaven is more where God reigns and his will is done than any particular space that could be identified on a map, even if it were a map of the entire created universe. As said above, God is not bounded by location. But that he is not bounded, does not mean that he cannot dwell in a particular space if he so chooses. I can go into this more if you are really interested in understanding how I can say both at the same time, but there is no need to bother if you are just rhetorically asking questions.

I did find another of the quotes your provided interesting:

Shaykh `Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulusi's statement already quoted: "Whoever believes that Allah permeates the Heavens and the Earth, or that He is a body sitting on His Throne, is a disbeliever, even if he thinks he is a Muslim."

If I understand this correctly, Shaykh 'Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulusi would be saying that those passages which speak of Allah sitting on his throne should NOT be taken literally. It would also seem, that he is implying that since Allah is not to be found in a particular place like his throne, nor permeating the heavens and the earth, that one should not think of Allah as occupying space at all. Would you agree that this is a fair understanding of what he has here said? If so, then it seems that like Christianity, Islam is affirming that God is a spirit. True or untrue?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Bring me an ayah where it says Allah is inside the heavens.

4:158 "But Allah raised him ['Îsa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he عليه السلام is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise."

Also 56:78 seems to imply that Allah is in heaven: "in a Book well-guarded (with Allah in the heaven i.e. Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz )."


Perhaps you could provide the translation (san commentary or parenthetical comments) for this passage: وَهُوَ اللَّهُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَفِي الْأَرْضِ ۖ يَعْلَمُ سِرَّكُمْ وَجَهْرَكُمْ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا تَكْسِبُونَ

Now, I've already expressed that I accept this is meant to be understood as figurative language and not taken literally. But you asked for said ayats and they do exist.

 

[Ramadhan]

4:158 "But Allah raised him ['Îsa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he عليه السلام is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise."

This is the translation of the verse without the addition in the bracket:

Sahih International
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

no mention of "heavens". Also, Eesa (is raised) on to جنّة (paradise), not heavens (سماوات). In any case, this verse also does not say that Eesa is in the realm as Allah SWT.

Also 56:78 seems to imply that Allah is in heaven: "in a Book well-guarded (with Allah in the heaven i.e. Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz )."

And this is also a translation without the added comment:

Sahih International
In a Register well-protected;

again, without the mention of heavens. And again, it does not say that the Lauh mahfudz is in the same realm as Allah SWT.
​

​

Now, I've already expressed that I accept this is meant to be understood as figurative language and not taken literally. But you asked for said ayats and they do exist.

umm...no.
As I have predicted, you (and sol) have confused between Jannah (جنّة) with Heavens ((سماوات . (سماوات is our universe and everything beyond, while جنّة is nothing like we have ever seen or imagine before (this is repeated many times in the qur'an), hence free from space-time. And even then, Allah SWT is not mentioned in the Qur'an as in جنّة.
Don't worry your mistake is common (and basic) among critiques of Islam.

This latest episode reminds all of us how absolutely necessary that scriptures is 100% preserved. Can you imagine if we don't have the Qur'an but rely on so many translations? after a while heavens can be substituted for paradise, and vice versa without ability to check what is the true word being used, and hence the meanings will be changed irrevocable.
There will be millions of different interpretations, just like what happened to bible (and the use of lord, god, servant, son, etc)

 

[MustafaMc]

Or at least that we have a different understanding of God's nature and the way he relates to humankind.

Perhaps you are right, but you worship Jesus (as) while I do not. Would you agree that the emphasis in Christianity is on Jesus (as) as opposed to the Father aspect of the Trinity?

OK. Glad you clarified. I truly wasn't aware that it was a rhetorical question. I thought it was one in which you were honestly seeking to understand where as a Christian I was coming from. Sorry for wasting our mutual time in a discussion that you weren't really having with me.

I am truly sorry, but I absolutely used the wrong word. I looked up rhetorical this AM and found that it meant a question for which an answer is not expected. I definitely want an answer, but I thought they were questions for which there are no answers possible. What English word would indicate that kind of question?

Well, I didn't make any ascertion of what was or was not truth. I asked a question in order to understand what Islam understood to be truth with regard to the "space" that Allah occupies or if that idea is even consonant within Islam. Your rhetorical question made it seem as if it was. I see now that it was only an attempt at deceiving me. I'm trusting that the material you provided from *********** can be better trusted to speak to Islam's understanding of "where" Allah is to be found. Now, for your information, my own view with regard to heaven as a "place" actually is not far from what is reflected by one of those quotes:

I understand your position and could see where you would think I was trying to deceive you. I have over and over again tried to show how Allah (swt) is outside of our realm of understanding with the illustration of the size of the universe and how it does not contain Allah (swt) and that He is not comprised of elements like we are. I don't know how else to say that as I felt those were pretty good explanations. Conversely, I have over and over again asked how God could be the Father and at the same time be Jesus. In other words I can see the duality, but I can't see the unity in this concept. My questions are directed to trying to understand how you see that Jesus (as) and God are the same.

Despite references made to "looking up" or "going up" into heaven, I see the location of heaven (and thrones and thronerooms) to be a metaphor refering not to a place as much as a concept. That concept being the sovereignty of God. Thus heaven is more where God reigns and his will is done than any particular space that could be identified on a map, even if it were a map of the entire created universe. As said above, God is not bounded by location. But that he is not bounded, does not mean that he cannot dwell in a particular space if he so chooses. I can go into this more if you are really interested in understanding how I can say both at the same time, but there is no need to bother if you are just rhetorically asking questions.

This is getting closer to what I understand from the quotes I provided earlier; however, Allah (swt) reigns over the earth too which is different from the Christian belief that Satan rules the world. I don't see heaven as a place we can physically travel to or merely a concept, but rather a different dimension of existence that we can't comprehend this side of death.

I did find another of the quotes your provided interesting:If I understand this correctly, Shaykh 'Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulusi would be saying that those passages which speak of Allah sitting on his throne should NOT be taken literally. It would also seem, that he is implying that since Allah is not to be found in a particular place like his throne, nor permeating the heavens and the earth, that one should not think of Allah as occupying space at all. Would you agree that this is a fair understanding of what he has here said? If so, then it seems that like Christianity, Islam is affirming that God is a spirit. True or untrue?

I would say that you are close. I agree that "one should not think of Allah as occupying space at all" or for that matter having a shape that we can comprehend. Allah's (swt) existence is beyond what we can put into words. I believe that angels are what we understand to be spirits, which are created beings from light. Angels can become manifest as human beings like to Abraham, Lot, Mary, and Muhammad (Jibrael hadith) (pbut). Could this be a possibility for Jesus' (as) nature that he was the embodiment of an angel? This is not what I understand from Islam as his likeness is that of Adam, but I was wondering what you and others thought about that concept.

 

[Sol Invictus]

alright, it's now more than obvious that my post has been misunderstood. the only flaw so far is in those individuals who assume that my point rests on allah being located in heaven. it has nothing to do with this and we can exclude the concept of heaven from the equation and still my argument would stand. so on that note, let us try again. what does the claim that allah cannot enter into his creation mean? it would seem to me that what muslims say and what islam teaches are two different things on this matter.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s:
Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:
When there remain only those who used to worship Allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, ‘What keeps you here when all the people have gone?’ They will say, ‘We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, ‘Let every nation follow what they used to worship,’ and now we are waiting for our Lord.’ Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, ‘You are not our Lord.’

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 105:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds about Him. It will be said, ‘What are you waiting for?’ Every nation have followed what they used to worship.’ They will reply, ‘We left the people in the world when we were in great need of them and we did not take them as friends. Now we are waiting for our Lord Whom we used to worship.’ Allah will say, ‘I am your Lord.’ They will say twice or thrice, ‘We do not worship any besides Allah.’ “

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 577:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
and then only this nation (i.e., Muslims) will remain, including their hypocrites. Allah will come to them in a shape other than they know and will say, ‘I am your Lord.‘ They will say, ‘We seek refuge with Allah from you. This is our place; (we will not follow you) till our Lord comes to us, and when our Lord comes to us, we will recognize Him.

Then Allah will come to them in a shape they know and will say, “I am your Lord.‘ They will say, ‘(No doubt) You are our Lord,’ and they will follow Him.

now from the above it would seem that allah does in fact take on a shape. if he takes on a shape then he exhibits certain dimensions which are the property of space (length, width, height). these very dimensions have not always existed and came into being during the big bang and as such are a creation of allah. yet the fact that allah takes on these very properties goes to show that he does indeed enter his own creation. so once again i must reiterate the fact that unlike what many muslims claim, allah does indeed enter his creation. now in light of the clear evidence above, i would still not be surprised if the claim was made that i have somehow been deceiving in my argument so let's suppose that contrary to evidence, i was in fact wrong and when these texts say that allah will take on a shape they really mean "allah will not take on a shape". let us suppose this is true, it would still not hurt the argument that allah does indeed enter his creation.

that is, we all understand that time is a creation of allah, right? yet allah acts within time in order to fulfill his purpose. the very fact that he acts presupposes the entering of time for there can be no act that does not involve temporality (if one disagrees, they are welcome to give an example of an act that does not take place within time). the very fact of creating everything in existence means that (while he simultaneously created time in doing so) he also entered time to do so. before creation, allah existed in a state of no time where nothing happened. the fact that at some point he chose to create everything in existence means that he took action and action can only happen within the realm of time. so once more, allah entered and repeatedly enters time in order to fulfill his purpose and given that time is a creation of his it becomes obvious that allah does in fact enter into his creation.

now i can already see how i could be misunderstood and as such i will say that i'm not saying that allah is bound to time. i'm only saying that allah did indeed enter time and that contrary to what muslims say, in claiming that allah created everything that exists, islam teaches that allah does in fact enter his creation.

@mustafa: must you believe that i really harbour such dark motives? the fact of the matter is that i saw this claim within your post and merely wanted an explanation.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Folks, from what I know of Mustafa and Sol, I don't think either of you are seeking to be intentionally deceptive or argumentative simply for arguments sake. Not that you aren't capable of it if pushed, but that isn't what I would think is motivating this discussion (especially with Mustafa's telling us that he didn't mean to use the word "rhetorical"). So, if we can assume that we are alike in seeking truth and better understanding of one another's views, I think that this conversation might be able to continue productively.

However, as we do come from different faiths, it is likely that we are going to have some different apriori assumptions about the meaning behind certain words, for instance understanding the difference between heaven, paradise, and Jannah; or how some statements about Jesus being Lord of heaven and earth and God being Lord of all, and Satan being Lord of this world may be confusing, but aren't the slightest bit contradictory. Some people are willing to quickly bypass such things as being "mere semantics", but they forgot the semantics is the discussion of the meaning of words and language. And while on some occassion the nature of one's discussion may not require that we quibble about whether we are talking about a person's soul or spirit, for many people mean the same thing by either term and use the interchangeably; in other circumstances the difference can be immensely important. When that becomes apparent, I think it is time to slow down, take the time to be clear on our semantics, the imbedded connotation of words that we may not either realize or share, and be sure that we are all talking about the same thing. We have had some mis-communication in the last page, but not enough to derail the thread.

So, before I go on, I want to slow down, and give us a a chance for a breather. And while we're doing that, let me also ask: Is there any concept that I have expressed that anyone feels I may not fully or properly understand what is meant by the term(s)?

 

[siam]

Maybe, it might be easier to imagine that the universe exists IN God?....instead of God existing in the universe......
....sort of like, the universe as a small grain of sand floating in a vast ocean......?.......

 

[Sol Invictus]

Maybe, it might be easier to imagine that the universe exists IN God?....instead of God existing in the universe......
....sort of like, the universe as a small grain of sand floating in a vast ocean......?.......

certainly that might be easier, but that is not what christianity nor islam teach. that sounds like pantheism and/or it's cousin, panentheism.

 

[M.I.A.]

allah does not need to enter his creation,

an all knowing, all powerfull god.. knew of every moment and every thought and every intent even before our creation.

but we do not, so freedom of choice still exists.

im not sure of the validity of those hadith,

gods nature never changes, his ways never change.. paraphrased something like.. and you will find no change in his ways.. cant remember exactly where it says in the quran, so somebody that knows it proper correct me please.

also we understand that the antichrist will claim to be god, what he claims to be heaven is hell and visa versa.. the people who reject him will be few in number.. but ultimately those that represent the god.

anyway judgement day will be the day that you will see god.. and by then your very soul shall testify, your tongue, your skin.. everything that he created.
no rejection on that day.. not on our part anyway.

 

[Sol Invictus]

allah does not need to enter his creation,

an all knowing, all powerfull god.. knew of every moment and every thought and every intent even before our creation.

but we do not, so freedom of choice still exists.

im not sure of the validity of those hadith,

gods nature never changes, his ways never change.. paraphrased something like.. and you will find no change in his ways.. cant remember exactly where it says in the quran, so somebody that knows it proper correct me please.

also we understand that the antichrist will claim to be god, what he claims to be heaven is hell and visa versa.. the people who reject him will be few in number.. but ultimately those that represent the god.

anyway judgement day will be the day that you will see god.. and by then your very soul shall testify, your tongue, your skin.. everything that he created.
no rejection on that day.. not on our part anyway.

the above is all well and good except it doesn't deal with my argument at all. even if we were to discount those hadiths, it would still not change the fact that allah does indeed enter into his creation. i am not asking for what you believe but merely for a logical rebuttal to what i have posted.

i'll be waiting.

 

[Woodrow]

alright, it's now more than obvious that my post has been misunderstood. the only flaw so far is in those individuals who assume that my point rests on allah being located in heaven. it has nothing to do with this and we can exclude the concept of heaven from the equation and still my argument would stand. so on that note, let us try again. what does the claim that allah cannot enter into his creation mean? it would seem to me that what muslims say and what islam teaches are two different things on this matter.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s:
Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:
When there remain only those who used to worship Allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, ‘What keeps you here when all the people have gone?’ They will say, ‘We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, ‘Let every nation follow what they used to worship,’ and now we are waiting for our Lord.’ Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, ‘You are not our Lord.’

The ahadith are often very difficult to understand. Especially when taken out of context. The AHadith you mentioned above do not pertain to the past, but rather refer to judgment day. Let us look at a few more parts of Book 93 Number 532, which is quite lengthy.

Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 532A.
------------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ata' bin Yazid Al-Laithi : On the authority of Abu Huraira: The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall
we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon
on a full moon night?" They said, "No, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun
when there are no clouds?" They said, "No, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "So you will see Him, like that. Allah will
gather all the people on the Day of Resurrection, and say, 'Whoever worshipped something (in the world) should
follow (that thing),' so, whoever worshipped the sun will follow the sun, and whoever worshiped the moon will follow
the moon, and whoever used to worship certain (other false) deities, he will follow those deities. And there will
remain only this nation with its good people (or its hypocrites). (The sub-narrator, Ibrahim is in doubt.) Allah will
come to them and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will (deny Him and) say, 'We will stay here till our Lord comes, for
when our Lord comes, we will recognize Him.' So Allah will come to them in His appearance which they know, and
will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord,' so they will follow Him.

Then a bridge will be laid across Hell (Fire)' I and my followers will be the first ones to go across it and none will
speak on that Day except the Apostles. And the invocation of the Apostles on that Day will be, 'O Allah, save!
Save!' In Hell (or over The Bridge) there will be hooks like the thorns of As-Sa'dan (thorny plant). Have you seen
As-Sa'dan? " They replied, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "So those hooks look like the thorns of As-Sa'dan,
but none knows how big they are except Allah. Those hooks will snap the people away according to their deeds.
Some of the people will stay in Hell (be destroyed) because of their (evil) deeds, and some will be cut or torn by
the hooks (and fall into Hell) and some will be punished and then relieved. When Allah has finished His Judgments
among the people, He will take whomever He will out of Hell through His Mercy. He will then order the angels to
take out of the Fire all those who used to worship none but Allah from among those whom Allah wanted to be
merciful to and those who testified (in the world) that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah. The angels
will recognize them in the Fire by the marks of prostration (on their foreheads), for the Fire will eat up all the
human body except the mark caused by prostration as Allah has forbidden the Fire to eat the mark of prostration.
They will come out of the (Hell) Fire, completely burnt and then the water of life will be poured over them and they
will grow under it as does a seed that comes in the mud of the torrent.

Then Allah will finish the judgments among the people, and there will remain one man facing the (Hell) Fire and he
will be the last person among the people of Hell to enter Paradise. He will say, 'O my Lord! Please turn my face
away from the fire because its air has hurt me and its severe heat has burnt me.' So he will invoke Allah in the way
Allah will wish him to invoke, and then Allah will say to him, 'If I grant you that, will you then ask for anything else?'
He will reply, 'No, by Your Power, (Honour) I will not ask You for anything else.' He will give his Lord whatever
promises and covenants Allah will demand.

So Allah will turn his face away from Hell (Fire). When he will face Paradise and will see it, he will remain quiet for
as long as Allah will wish him to remain quiet, then he will say, 'O my Lord! Bring me near to the gate of Paradise.'
Allah will say to him, 'Didn't you give your promises and covenants that you would never ask for anything more
than what you had been given? Woe on you, O Adam's son! How treacherous you are!' He will say, 'O my lord,'
and will keep on invoking Allah till He says to him, 'If I give what you are asking, will you then ask for anything
else?' He will reply, 'No, by Your (Honour) Power, I will not ask for anything else.'

Then he will give covenants and promises to Allah and then Allah will bring him near to the gate of Paradise.
When he stands at the gate of Paradise, Paradise will be opened and spread before him, and he will see its
splendour and pleasures whereupon he will remain quiet as long as Allah will wish him to remain quiet, and then
he will say, O my Lord! Admit me into Paradise.' Allah will say, 'Didn't you give your covenants and promises that
you would not ask for anything more than what you had been given?' Allah will say, 'Woe on you, O Adam's son!
How treacherous you are!'

The man will say, 'O my Lord! Do not make me the most miserable of Your creation,' and he will keep on invoking
Allah till Allah will laugh because of his sayings, and when Allah will laugh because of him, He will say to him,
'Enter Paradise,' and when he will enter it, Allah will say to him, 'Wish for anything.' So he will ask his Lord, and he
will wish for a great number of things, for Allah Himself will remind him to wish for certain things by saying, '(Wish
for) so-and-so.' When there is nothing more to wish for, Allah will say, 'This is for you, and its equal (is for you) as
well."

'Ata' bin Yazid added: Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri who was present with Abu Huraira, did not deny whatever the latter
said, but when Abu Huraira said that Allah had said, "That is for you and its equal as well," Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri
said, "And ten times as much, O Abu Huraira!" Abu Huraira said, "I do not remember, except his saying, 'That is
for you and its equal as well.'" Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri then said, "I testify that I remember the Prophet saying, 'That is
for you, and ten times as much.' ' Abu Huraira then added, "That man will be the last person of the people of
Paradise to enter Paradise."


Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 532B.
------------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri : We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?"
He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He
said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and
the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what
they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolaters (will go) with their
idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to
worship Allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then
Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?'

They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has
neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it
will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did
you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Messiah, the son of Allah.' It will be said, 'You are liars,
for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What: do you want (now)?' They will say, 'We want You to provide us with
water.' It will be said to them, 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). When there remain only those who
used to worship Allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, 'What
keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were
in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they
used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than
the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.'
And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by
which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every
believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off
and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a
wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). Then the bridge will be laid across Hell." We, the companions of the
Prophet said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?'

He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side
and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called
As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as
lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after
receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged
(over the bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has
been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that
Day, when they see themselves safe.

They will say, 'O Allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds
with us.' Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one
(gold) Dinar.' Allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of
them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they
will recognize and then they will return, and Allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose
heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will recognize and
return, and then Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight
of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you
do not believe me then read the Holy Verse:

'Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He
doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last
of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which
He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of
Paradise, called the water of life.

They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock
or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those
people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will
enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent.
He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any
good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'"


Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 532C.
------------------------------------------
Narated By Anas : The Prophet said, "The believers will be kept (waiting) on the Day of Resurrection so long that
they will become worried and say, "Let us ask somebody to intercede far us with our Lord so that He may relieve
us from our place.

Then they will go to Adam and say, 'You are Adam, the father of the people. Allah created you with His Own Hand
and made you reside in His Paradise and ordered His angels to prostrate before you, and taught you the names
of all things will you intercede for us with your Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours? Adam will
say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will mention his mistakes he had committed, i.e., his eating off the tree
though he had been forbidden to do so. He will add, 'Go to Noah, the first prophet sent by Allah to the people of
the Earth.' The people will go to Noah who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking' He will mention his mistake
which he had done, i.e., his asking his Lord without knowledge.' He will say (to them), 'Go to Abraham, Khalil
Ar-Rahman.' They will go to Abraham who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He would mention three words
by which he told a lie, and say (to them). 'Go to Moses, a slave whom Allah gave the Torah and spoke to, directly
and brought near Him, for conversation.'

They will go to Moses who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He will mention his mistake he made, i.e.,
killing a person, and will say (to them), 'Go to Jesus, Allah's slave and His Apostle, and a soul created by Him and
His Word.' (Be: And it was.) They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking but you'd better go
to Muhammad the slave whose past and future sins have been forgiven by Allah.' So they will come to me, and I
will ask my Lord's permission to enter His House and then I will be permitted. When I see Him I will fall down in
prostration before Him, and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He will, and then He will say, 'O
Muhammad, lift up your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be
accepted, and ask (for anything) for it will be granted:' Then I will raise my head and glorify my Lord with certain
praises which He has taught me. Allah will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people) I will take
them out and make them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that), the Prophet said, "I will go out
and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and then I will return and ask my Lord for permission
to enter His House and I will be permitted.

When I will see Him I will fall down in prostration before Him and He will leave me in prostration as long as He will
let me (in that state), and then He will say, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to,
and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, your request will be granted.' " The Prophet added,
"So I will raise my head and glorify and praise Him as He has taught me. Then I will intercede and He will put a limit
for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada
added: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, 'I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter
Paradise, and I will return for the third time and will ask my Lord for permission to enter His house, and I will be
allowed to enter.

When I see Him, I will fall down in prostration before Him, and will remain in prostration as long as He will, and then
He will say, 'Raise your head, O Muhammad, and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your
intercession will be accepted, and ask, for your request will be granted.' So I will raise my head and praise Allah
as He has taught me and then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of
people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet
said, "So I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, till none will remain in the Fire
except those whom Qur'an will imprison (i.e., those who are destined for eternal life in the fire)." The narrator then
recited the Verse: "It may be that your Lord will raise you to a Station of Praise and Glory.' (17.79) The narrator
added: This is the Station of Praise and Glory which Allah has promised to your Prophet.

Just my opinion but I can not see where it states this final judgment will occur on Earth or even within the creation. Somebody more knowledge in the Science of Ahadith, may explain this better than my attempt. The Ahadith are not the words of Allaah(swt) they are quotes of things that were said by men. There is some leeway that some may be metaphoric or analogous not necessarily intended to be taken literal.

It actually takes a well studied Scholar to properly explain many of the Ahadith. But from reading this in context with all of 532 I do not understand it as saying Allaah(swt) will actually enter the world.

 

[Sol Invictus]

The ahadith are often very difficult to understand. Especially when taken out of context. The AHadith you mentioned above do not pertain to the past, but rather refer to judgment day. Let us look at a few more parts of Book 93 Number 532, which is quite lengthy.



Just my opinion but I can not see where it states this final judgment will occur on Earth or even within the creation. Somebody more knowledge in the Science of Ahadith, may explain this better than my attempt. The Ahadith are not the words of Allaah(swt) they are quotes of things that were said by men. There is some leeway that some may be metaphoric or analogous not necessarily intended to be taken literal.

It actually takes a well studied Scholar to properly explain many of the Ahadith. But from reading this in context with all of 532 I do not understand it as saying Allaah(swt) will actually enter the world.

my point does not rest on those hadiths taking place in the past. rather they illustrate that allah does in fact enter into his creation by taking on dimensions (length, width, height). it doesn't even matter where this purported discussion will take place because anywhere that it will, will be a place that which allah has created so the problem is not in fact resolved. you seem to only understand creation as this world, that is incorrect. creation is everything else that exists outside of allah and therefore any other place that this conversation could take place at would be a creation of allah and therefore, allah does indeed enter his creation. but let's go even one step further and completely discount those hadiths. let's suppose that they are completely wrong, even then it would not hurt my point because the very fact that allah acts means that he enters time to do so seeing as action cannot exist outside of time. this in itself proves my point but given that we are so quick to discount hadiths when the situation calls for it (i say this because these very same hadiths have been used by muslims to show that they will in fact one day meet with and see allah and as such i had assumed that their authenticity were generally agreed to be true), i will quote from the muslim holy book:

But when he came to it, he was called: "Blessed is whosoever is in the fire, and whosoever is round about it! And glorified be Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). "O Musa (Moses)! Verily! It is I, Allah, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. "And throw down your stick!" But when he saw it moving as if it were a snake, he turned in flight, and did not look back. (It was said): "O Musa (Moses)! Fear not, verily! The Messengers fear not in front of Me. --- S. 27:8-10

now as muslims explain it, allah is in his abode and is speaking to moses. in this way they assume that they'll stay clear of the accusation that allah has entered his creation by being in the fire. we can go with this explanation if you would like but even then it still shows that allah has entered his creation. notice that allah is speaking. speech can only take place within the realm of time and time itself is a thing that has not always existed and was in fact created by allah. as such it is his creation. in order to speak allah must enter within the realm of time and as such allah does indeed enter his creation. therefore, what muslims say and what islam teaches on this point are two contradictory things. the only way this problem can be resolved is if we assume that allah did not in fact create time yet this would conversely show that he didn't truly create all things. now, i'm not trying to tell muslims that they must believe that allah does indeed enter his creation but merely that the qur'an attests to the fact that he does and as such the claim that he does not is patently false and illogical. illogical because it betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of time and creation.

 

[Woodrow]

Now that is a very large loaf of bread to try eating at one sitting. I will begin with just what I see as the easiest concept. The concept that Allaah(swt) exists within his creation as he exists in time and time is his creation.

. the only way this problem can be resolved is if we assume that allah did not in fact create time yet this would conversely show that he didn't truly create all things. now, i'm not trying to tell muslims that they must believe that allah does indeed enter his creation but merely that the qur'an attests to the fact that he does and as such the claim that he does not is patently false and illogical. illogical because it betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of time and creation.

I agree you make a very good and logical argument. The only resolution is to show Allaah(swt) did not create time. But that seems to bring up other issues.

Actually it is very simple. Allaah(swt) did not create time. Time is not a creation and is not a thing. Time is a measurement, but it itself is non existent. Time is a human concept and mathematical function to enable predictability of motion. Time is not a part of creation, it is a means to measure creation.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I agree you make a very good and logical argument. The only resolution is to show Allaah(swt) did not create time. But that seems to bring up other issues.

Actually it is very simple. Allaah(swt) did not create time. Time is not a creation and is not a thing. Time is a measurement, but it itself is non existent. Time is a human concept and mathematical function to enable predictability of motion. Time is not a part of creation, it is a means to measure creation.

the above is in stark contrast to the accepted theory of cosmology. the fact is that time is not merely a mathematical function, but rather what has been shown is that time itself had a beginning. like space it has not always existed but came into being at that point we call the big bang. at this point in our understanding of science, to say that time is merely a mathematical function (and as such to say that it does not really exist) is akin to saying that area does not really exist or gravity does not really exist. it has been shown rather conclusively that time is in fact real (hence why we speak of the space-time continuum etc.) by the fact that it came into being at some point and so the problem of allah entering his own creation is not resolved. it strikes me as odd that muslims would claim that islam conforms to the accepted theory of cosmology while if your words and opinion is to be taken as the general muslim understanding on the matter, it is more than evident that it does not. time is as real as height or any other fundamental part of this universe and to deny this is to be in error. so once again, i must restate the fact that while the qur'an quite clearly teaches that allah does actually enter his own creation, many muslims deny this in contradiction to the qur'an.

p.s. the philosophy of time is quite fascinating and one of my interests, especially how it relates to the concept of an eternal god.

 

[Sol Invictus]

sol, your a stubburn bugger and i am in no doubt that if you cannot see people answering your question then you are a higher caliber of troll than normal.
if god wants to enter creation to rescue you, im sure he will.
hopefully.

if he sends you an angel, take suit measurements.

if its bird droppings...S@@@ happens.

god does not have to enter creation if he is creation.. you sir... missed the point entirely.

he technically does not even have to judge you, your own hands will be your undoing(goes for six billion..give or take the history of the world)

you can troll people all you like but mostly if any damage is done then its your own soul you wrong..

if you are genuinly trying to find answers and are able to quote hadith and quran... and are yet in doubt of god.. then i am sorry for you.

in fact every post you make really leads me to believe that you cannot be serious in anything other than trying to confuse people or bringing tumult of the mind.

god really does not need to be here, you will do a good enough job of doing what you were suppose to do without knowing what you were doing until he lets you know what you were doing.. in fact not long ago someone posted that the greatest reward is the countenance of allah..

i see myself everday, when i see something i dont recognise il be sure to be thankfull for finally getting close to god and leaving the coveting of my own soul behind..

and do not covet your own soul... paraphrased by the quran.

have a nice day, im out

now now, calling me names does not constitute an argument. neither does it make your case to become angry because of not being able to answer questions that deal with mere logic. that said the rest of your post is baseless and i'm sorry that you will cease participating but perhaps this in itself was for the best. i must say though, that it is not the case that i do not believe in god, rather i do and his name is Yahweh. this is not a question of whether it is logical for god to exist or not but whether the statement that he does not enter his creation is logical. in light of science, logic, and the qur'an itself, it is quite evident that he does and as such the claim to the contrary as baseless, incorrect, and illogical. for what it's worth this conversation was enjoyable, thank you.

 

[MustafaMc]

I would like to know how this recent discussion pertains to the nature of Jesus' (as) birth.

 

[جوري]

I would like to know how this recent discussion pertains to the nature of Jesus' (as) birth.

He can't validate his christian argument from christian sources and has no education whatsoever about Islam (the other thread closed before he can counter my argument) Good luck getting him to steer the discussion to be in concert with the topic or common sense for that matter!

 

[Sol Invictus]

I would like to know how this recent discussion pertains to the nature of Jesus' (as) birth.

it doesn't particularly pertain to the topic yet like i said, it was mentioned in your post and so i thought i'd ask. yet i suppose that we can put the topic to rest now given that it has become more than obvious that allah does indeed enter his creation.

 

[جوري]

it doesn't particularly pertain to the topic yet like i said, it was mentioned in your post and so i thought i'd ask. yet i suppose that we can put the topic to rest now given that it has become more than obvious that allah does indeed enter his creation.

No such conclusion is drawn and is certainly not in concert with Islamic teaching, there is a science to hadiths which you're certainly not equipped to interpret or present as an argument to suit your christian position.
The topic stays open and if you can't handle it and it is clear that you can't then try to concoct a graceful exit and let some other magod worshiping fellow take the heat spinning tall tales of christian nonsense to our amusement!

all the best