What would Muslims think about the way I see things?

[kritikvernunft]

I was originally born into Christianity, into the Holy Apostolic Church. I have never really told anybody there that I was leaving. So, I may still be considered a member in ways.

However, I do not think that anybody would call my views Christian.

For a starters, I do not believe that God would have human relatives, or human children, or a son or so. This very idea sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. The problem that I have with Jesus, is in fact much worse than that. According to the Christian gospels, Jesus said: "If you do not believe me, at least believe in my miracles." Well, that is exactly the part that I do not believe whatsoever.

If a miracle can be fabricated, it will be fabricated.

Therefore, I only believe in miracles that could impossibly have been fabricated.

Unfortunately, not one of Jesus' miracles is of that nature. All his miracles could trivially easily have been fabricated.

How hard would it be to make someone see, who was never blind in the first place? To make him walk, if he was never lame in the first place? To resurrect him, if he was never dead in the first place? The worst so-called miracle of all is about Jesus coming back from the dead. How hard can it be to come back from the dead, if it was not even you who got crucified, and if you never died at the cross in the first place?

Now, let's move on to the next problem; and it is not a small one.

If you do not believe that the Jesus of the Christian gospels performed even one single real miracle, you can only conclude that he was the greatest liar, cheat, and fraud that has ever walked the face of this earth. Seriously, the situation does not leave us any choice. It is either the one or the other. Either you believe in his miracles, or else you automatically believe that he was a crook.

Now, we have arrived at the difficulty with Islam.

The Quran says that Isa, the son of Mary is a prophet. Unfortunately, the Quran does not say what exactly this prophet would have done in his life. The Quran does not describe the life of prophet Isa. Therefore, the Quran may give us the impression that we could refer to the Christian gospels to understand who prophet Isa was, and what he actually said and did. That is disastrous. As I said before, I believe that the man, Jesus, described in the Christian gospels was rather some kind of mafia criminal, and not a prophet at all.

Therefore, the problem has now become one of the Quran itself. Does the Quran really hand out a blank cheque to whoever can successfully fabricate any fake story of the life of prophet Isa?

This is a massive security concern, right in the Quran itself.

Anybody who successfully manages to concoct, through Christian interpolation, the story of a Jesus figure -- a Jesus who even engage in all kinds of questionable behaviour -- will still see his invention promoted to the rank of prophet by the Quran. What security measures did the Quran or Sunnah institute to prevent this kind of fraud?

I am personally convinced that the Jesus person in the Christian gospels was a dangerous criminal, and I am certainly not the only one to believe this. Therefore, I am wary of joining Islam, if Muslims insist to call this man a prophet.

How can we solve this problem?

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Welcome to IslamicBoard and thank you for raising your doubts here.

Now, we have arrived at the difficulty with Islam.

The Quran says that Isa, the son of Mary is a prophet. Unfortunately, the Quran does not say what exactly this prophet would have done in his life. The Quran does not describe the life of prophet Isa. Therefore, the Quran may give us the impression that we could refer to the Christian gospels to understand who prophet Isa was, and what he actually said and did.

This is not true. Allah :swt: describes Prophet 'Isa in the Qur'an with great details. There is an entire chapter named as Maryam (Mary - mother of 'Isa :as. Please read the following verses from another chapter, Al-Ma'idah, verses 109-120:

109: [Be warned of] the Day when Allah will assemble the messengers and say, "What was the response you received?" They will say, "We have no knowledge. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen"
110: [The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

111: And [remember] when I inspired to the disciples, "Believe in Me and in My messenger Jesus." They said, "We have believed, so bear witness that indeed we are Muslims [in submission to Allah ]."

112: [And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."
113: They said, "We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses."
114: Said Jesus, the son of Mary, "O Allah , our Lord, send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers."
115: Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds."

116: And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
117: I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.
118: If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
119: Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
120: To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is within them. And He is over all things competent.


And in Chapter Aal-Imraan, verses 35 onwards:

[Mention, O Muhammad], when the wife of 'Imran said, "My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female. And I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her in You and [for] her descendants from Satan, the expelled [from the mercy of Allah ]."
So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance and caused her to grow in a good manner and put her in the care of Zechariah. Every time Zechariah entered upon her in the prayer chamber, he found with her provision. He said, "O Mary, from where is this [coming] to you?" She said, "It is from Allah . Indeed, Allah provides for whom He wills without account."

At that, Zechariah called upon his Lord, saying, "My Lord, grant me from Yourself a good offspring. Indeed, You are the Hearer of supplication."
So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, "Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and [who will be] honorable, abstaining [from women], and a prophet from among the righteous."
He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah ; He does what He wills."
He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He Said, "Your sign is that you will not [be able to] speak to the people for three days except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and exalt [Him with praise] in the evening and the morning."

And when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.
O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]."
That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. And you were not with them when they cast their pens as to which of them should be responsible for Mary. Nor were you with them when they disputed.

[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].
He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."
She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.
And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel
And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.
And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.
Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].
Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."
And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

@ when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers." But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and Allah does not like the wrongdoers. This is what We recite to you, [O Muhammad], of [Our] verses and the precise [and wise] message. Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. The truth is from your Lord, so do not be among the doubters. Then whoever argues with you about it after [this] knowledge has come to you - say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then supplicate earnestly [together] and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars [among us]." Indeed, this is the true narration. And there is no deity except Allah . And indeed, Allah is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. But if they turn away, then indeed - Allah is Knowing of the corrupters. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR] http://legacy.quran.com/3/35-62 The miracles performed by 'Isa :as: were true miracles performed by the permission of Allah :swt:.;

 

[eesa the kiwi]

quite often christians give this false dillema, ive seen it in their pamphlets
liar, lunatic or lord, and then the pamphlet will show he was not a liar or a lunatic leaving the reader with the false impression that the only option left is option c

this is incorrect and to be frank dishonesty on the part of the christians. there is a fourth option, that indeed he was a noble messenger of god but succeeding generations corrupted his message and falsely claimed he had been elevated to that of god, a statement jesus himself alayhis salam spoke so firmly against

so in your deductions you haave arrived to some correct conclusions but you have also made some errors
yes you are correct that jesus alayhis salm was not divine and was human
but no he wasnt a fraud and the miracles he sent with were truly from Allah to show the truth of his prophethood


islam is to believe that none but the creator is worthy of worship and that muhammed sallaho alayhi wa sallam was the final messenger to mankind

i call you to accept this and inshaallah achieve success in both the worlds and warn youu that if you deny this, you are risking a severe torment in the aakhirah


hoping for a fruitful discussion
esa

 

[kritikvernunft]

You designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic.

Ok, I see. I will not hide the fact that I am not particularly happy with this; but ok, I can see that the Quran says that Allah gave permission for miracles. At the same time, I certainly do not understand why exactly that was supposed to be a good thing. But then again, who are we to question the will of Allah?

My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me? Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills.

Well, that is another thing I am not particularly much a fan of. You see, I will of course drop my opposition to this, but again, only under protest. I certainly do not see the value in giving out that kind of blank cheques. But ok, again, who are we to question the will of Allah?

The Quran is forcing my hand here, and using divine power to overrule my objections. Therefore, I do admit defeat. I am obviously not going to seek conflict with our Master.
I am also not going to oppose Islam, or the Muslims over just this, since we would otherwise pretty much agree on everything else.
In fact, I can live with the idea that these verses are mentioned in the Quran, but I would object to repeating them myself or claiming that I would somehow be a fan of them. Seriously, I am not. Therefore, I wonder how to proceed now?

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

@kritikvernunft

There are things in the Bible that we as Muslims would not accept. For example, in the Bible, it is said that Noah became drunk after the flood, and such a story we do not attribute to Prophet Noah alayhis salaam (peace be upon him).

So, we accept the stories of Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) that are true and reject the ones that are false or fabricated. We do believe that Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) was given the power to heal the leper and blind and resurrect the dead with the permission of Allah. However, with any miracles, they were given for a specific reason and that was to prove to the Israelite community that they had strayed from the path of Allah by knowing the rule of law yet foregoing mercy and clemency and leniency in its application and also injustices the community perpetrated and thinking themselves above the sin and sinful with more brain-knowledge than heart-knowledge.

There is no reason to be wary of Islam for this reason. Neither you nor I were there when Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) was alive. You already believe that God cannot have human children, which means you already believe in the One God. If you then believe in Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him), I'd say you're already a Muslim and would simply need to correct your belief to align with the understanding that God can do anything He pleases, including choosing and permitting Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) to perform specific miracles.

For example, say I am a teacher and I have a reputation of giving hard exams that only some pass but even those that pass never getting A+, and yet I can choose to give one of my students all the answers to my hardest exam and the answer to an extra credit question on the exam. Obviously, if I do so, the student will have all the information on how to perform the "miracle" of passing the exam with the A+. If the student does so, this will be considered by others a miraculous feat. And yet as a teacher how hard is it for me to get the student to perform the "miracle" of passing when it is my will and choice that dictated it so? In the same way, Allah can choose any human being to perform a miracle, but at the same time, the miracle is really of Allah's and only to the untutored eye does it seem to belong to the human being.

Also, if you think about this, we're really discussing about the realm of the unseen. If you doubt on Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him), what about Prophet Solomon alayhis salaam (peace be upon him)? I could come to you and make the same claim as anyone can claim to be talking to animals and not be questioned since the others wouldn't know one way or another, and yet we believe in him as a prophet. Why? Because God can choose to give any type of miracle to anyone, and it only means that God is All-Powerful.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Therefore, I wonder how to proceed now?

Well, you could start living as a Muslim - we're in the blessed last 10 Shahru Ramadan right now and you can try keeping a fast or two if you're inclined?

If you pretty much agree on everything else, I'd say you should simply ask God to give you guidance and the correct understanding of the man we know as Jesus in the Bible. That makes sense, right? If we have questions about something about which only God has knowledge, we should ask God to give us guidance and knowledge on that matter.

Welcome to IB, btw!

Wishing you much awesomeness,

 

[kritikvernunft]

We do believe that Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) was given the power to heal the leper and blind and resurrect the dead with the permission of Allah.

Yes. I am not opposing this view, not because I would believe it, but because it is mentioned in the Quran, and I do not wish to oppose the Quran. There would simply be no value in doing that. Any such "cure" would be several orders of magnitude worse than the "disease".

My core religious belief is: In God we trust and in nothing else. Therefore, I certainly and absolutely trust in God, but I do not necessarily trust what other people claim about God, simply because they are not God themselves. Therefore, I reasonably expect any claim about God to possibly have issues. In other words, I do not certainly or absolutely trust other people, since that would even be contrary to my core belief. I live in total trust in our Master, and with varying levels of distrust in everything else. I like it that way, and it suits me absolutely fine, and I will never change it.

Islam is much more a political option to me -- mostly compatible with my own core religious belief -- than anything else. I personally think that it will either be with the Muslims, or else we are toast.

with more brain-knowledge than heart-knowledge.

Well, I am possibly indeed hyper-rational. But then again, I just like it that way. I feel the most comfortable like that. In God I trust, and I view everything else with suspicion. So, it is true, I do not believe, unless it is God, who is our Master. But then again, I drop the opposition about Jesus and Mary mostly for political reasons, and not necessarily for religious ones. Does God wants me to believe it? Possibly. I will certainly not know in this lifetime, and it is undoubtedly the first question that I will ask in the next one. At the moment, dropping opposition to Jesus and Mary just looks like the price tag for getting along with the Muslims. Therefore, ok, let's pay that price. It is not even such a high price. It mostly means that Islam can more easily be re-purposed for unduly lending credibility to Christian fabrications. It makes it a bit harder to debunk Christian fabrications, but ok, it does not make it impossible altogether.

In the meanwhile, Christianity and its fabrications have most spectacularly spawned all kinds of virulent ideological movements that do not just debunk Jesus and Mary, but even God himself. That is obviously one bridge too far. They now relegate the concept of God himself to the status of fabrication. It is hard to defend against that, if you are also supposed to defend things like "miracles".

There is no reason to be wary of Islam for this reason.

Well, it is a bit the other way around. The only reason why the unbelievers have not been able to force and impose their views onto me, is because they would have to do that with the Muslims first, which would be a feat that is not particularly easy to achieve. So, seen from my situation, Islam protects me against all kinds of problems, regardless of whether I join it or not. Therefore, even if I do not join, I will at least sympathize, and openly acknowledge the benefits that it brings to me.

need to correct your belief to align with the understanding that God can do anything He pleases, including choosing and permitting Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) to perform specific miracles.

Of course, our Master can do anything he pleases. However, there seems to be quite a bit of logic in what he does. Whenever someone tells me that he saw our Master overruling his own logic, that he otherwise never overrules, I hope that you understand why I am so skeptical. You see, the issue is not whether I believe in God or not -- I do -- but whether I believe what other people say about God -- I often don't.

it only means that God is All-Powerful.

If our Master arbitrarily and randomly did whatever anybody could liberally imagine, the universe would not be the one we can now see around us. It would be another universe, while the universe that you can see around us, is obviously the universe that our Master wanted. It may, however, not be the universe that particular other people want, but that does not matter to me, because I do not care what universe other people would want. It is simply not their call.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Well, you could start living as a Muslim - we're in the blessed last 10 Shahru Ramadan right now and you can try keeping a fast or two if you're inclined?

I am certainly interested. The only problem is that nobody around me is fasting. So, I would be fasting alone, while everybody else would be eating. So, if I want to "naturally" do these things, I should try to surround myself with people who also do that. Up till now, it has been a disaster to find like-minded people in the physical world around me.

I somehow sense that local Muslims distrust non-Muslims here. I think that they are actually quite right about that, but it does not help me particularly much either. So, I am in the market to join up with Muslims -- preferably a bit intellectual people like in this forum. I have been in the market for that quite a while actually. I have never managed to book any success in that field, however.

If you pretty much agree on everything else, I'd say you should simply ask God to give you guidance and the correct understanding of the man we know as Jesus in the Bible. That makes sense, right? If we have questions about something about which only God has knowledge, we should ask God to give us guidance and knowledge on that matter.

I am perfectly ok with the idea to let the question about Jesus and Mary unanswered in this life. I think that I should just leave the question open and deal with the answer to that question in the next life. The answer to this question is absolutely not essential to anything in this life. It does not affect the Law in any way. It does not detract from our goals in any way either. In fact, thinking of it, why would this question even be relevant in this life? I will just ignore it and move on with things that are obviously more important.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you kritikvernunft; and welcome to the forum,

In God we trust and in nothing else

But do you trust in God? In order to trust in God, you have to do something, you have to be prepared to change yourself.

In God we trust and in nothing else

In my opinion, God's biggest miracle is the creation of the universe and the creation of life from no life. All of the miracles Jesus performed are all very minor by comparison to creation. Why would you doubt God has the power? If God wanted to prove something to the people of the day, then what better sign than a few miracles.

Only when you start to embrace these beliefs willingly, will you start to change yourself. God, Allah gave us Holy Books to instruct the generations to come.

Life is a journey always one day at a time, yesterday is history, tomorrow is a great mystery, help me live this day and every day knowing that you hold me in the palm of your hand.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

 

[kritikvernunft]

But do you trust in God?

Yes, I trust only in God.

I treat everything else with varying degrees of suspicion.

In order to trust in God, you have to do something, you have to be prepared to change yourself.

Just like he will call back everybody else too, he will obviously call me back too. I just hope that God will have time for a few questions by then; questions that I have been saving up ...
I do not know if there are things that I do wrong and that will backfire on the last day. It will certainly not be obvious or intentional violations of God's law.

Why would you doubt God has the power?

God obviously has that power, but everybody can also clearly see that he does not routinely use his power in that way. Therefore, I am quite skeptical when someone tells me that God just did. I would somehow rather suspect that there is something else going on in that case ...

 

[eesa the kiwi]

Yes, I trust only in God.

I treat everything else with varying degrees of suspicion.



Just like he will call back everybody else too, he will obviously call me back too. I just hope that God will have time for a few questions by then; questions that I have been saving up ...
I do not know if there are things that I do wrong and that will backfire on the last day. It will certainly not be obvious or intentional violations of God's law.



God obviously has that power, but everybody can also clearly see that he does not routinely use his power in that way. Therefore, I am quite skeptical when someone tells me that God just did. I would somehow rather suspect that there is something else going on in that case ...

bismillah

brother im going to link you to a site i found very good when i was new to islam. they have a bunch of good articles alhamdulilah that inshaallah will give you a basic overview of what islam is about. inshaallah you will find this useful, highly recomend for you to have a look
www.islamreligion.com

also brother its good you trust god, i respect that a lot mashaallah but there is something you need to be doing besides trust
prayer, a muslim prays for guidance over 17 times a day, its an integral part of our salah
you need to be praying for guidance. subhannallah we cant go even for a second without our creators helps and support. say "oh my creator guide me to the religion you are pleased with"

be sincere and inshaallah it will be answered but you have to be sincere
alhamdulilah you believe god is one and has no partners so you have the basic foundation of success in this life and the next so thank your creator for the guidance he has already shown you

you are so close bro, keep praying and inshaallah you will be shown the way
May Allah guide us all to siratul mustaqim (the straight path) and save us from being among those upon whom is his anger and among those who have been sent astray ameen

 

[YusufNoor]

I was originally born into Christianity, into the Holy Apostolic Church. I have never really told anybody there that I was leaving. So, I may still be considered a member in ways.

However, I do not think that anybody would call my views Christian.

For a starters, I do not believe that God would have human relatives, or human children, or a son or so. This very idea sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. The problem that I have with Jesus, is in fact much worse than that. According to the Christian gospels, Jesus said: "If you do not believe me, at least believe in my miracles." Well, that is exactly the part that I do not believe whatsoever.

If a miracle can be fabricated, it will be fabricated.

Therefore, I only believe in miracles that could impossibly have been fabricated.

Unfortunately, not one of Jesus' miracles is of that nature. All his miracles could trivially easily have been fabricated.

How hard would it be to make someone see, who was never blind in the first place? To make him walk, if he was never lame in the first place? To resurrect him, if he was never dead in the first place? The worst so-called miracle of all is about Jesus coming back from the dead. How hard can it be to come back from the dead, if it was not even you who got crucified, and if you never died at the cross in the first place?

Now, let's move on to the next problem; and it is not a small one.

If you do not believe that the Jesus of the Christian gospels performed even one single real miracle, you can only conclude that he was the greatest liar, cheat, and fraud that has ever walked the face of this earth. Seriously, the situation does not leave us any choice. It is either the one or the other. Either you believe in his miracles, or else you automatically believe that he was a crook.

Now, we have arrived at the difficulty with Islam.

The Quran says that Isa, the son of Mary is a prophet. Unfortunately, the Quran does not say what exactly this prophet would have done in his life. The Quran does not describe the life of prophet Isa. Therefore, the Quran may give us the impression that we could refer to the Christian gospels to understand who prophet Isa was, and what he actually said and did. That is disastrous. As I said before, I believe that the man, Jesus, described in the Christian gospels was rather some kind of mafia criminal, and not a prophet at all.

Therefore, the problem has now become one of the Quran itself. Does the Quran really hand out a blank cheque to whoever can successfully fabricate any fake story of the life of prophet Isa?

This is a massive security concern, right in the Quran itself.

Anybody who successfully manages to concoct, through Christian interpolation, the story of a Jesus figure -- a Jesus who even engage in all kinds of questionable behaviour -- will still see his invention promoted to the rank of prophet by the Quran. What security measures did the Quran or Sunnah institute to prevent this kind of fraud?

I am personally convinced that the Jesus person in the Christian gospels was a dangerous criminal, and I am certainly not the only one to believe this. Therefore, I am wary of joining Islam, if Muslims insist to call this man a prophet.

How can we solve this problem?

hi K,

thanks for the questions! we DO believe that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam was able to heal people. in fact, there were lots of healers at that time and Jesus thus showed that he was among the best!

that all gets into the question of mind over matter, because the "false" prophets could heal people too! how do you explain that?

we do NOT accept the gospels as gospel! this, we agree with:

Mark 12:

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

one of the reasons the Qur'an is silent on some things of the other prophets is that we don't need to know!

the most important part is tawheed, the Oneness of Allah. you are on the right track! you wrote:

I do not believe that God would have human relatives, or human children, or a son or so. This very idea sounds absolutely ridiculous to me

THAT is part of Tawheed. learning about Prophets is secondary Tawheed comes first. for English speakers, anything by Dr Abu Aminah Bilal Philips is you best source (stay away from Anwar Al Awlaki). give these a shot:

i highly recommend his books, all of them!

May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

ma salaama

 

[Scimitar]

WHAT IF MIRACLES CAN BE FAKED????

I debunk this with a simple logic:

How can one fake a new born child speaking from the cradle??? See OP - that one isn't in the bible - it's solely in the Qur'an - and it refers to Jesus pbuh speaking up for his mother Mary when she was commanded to take a vow of silence. Jesus, was still a baby, and he spoke - defending his mother and notified the rabbis that he was the mssiah - they were gob smacked. Literally. This was Jesus' first miracle.

This miracle??? NOT IN THE BIBLE - IN QUR'AN only... demonstrating that this MIRACLE cannot be faked and thus - the others followed a suit which also show that the "I believe they were faked" logic doesn't work...

 

[Scimitar]

But to answer the question:

What would a Muslim make of the way I see things?

Very one dimensional, you do your intellect no justice. We'll find out which in good time

Scimi

EDIT: I eat my own words, and stand corrected Allahu Akbar

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Timi Scar;

I'm leaving this place, what a let down.

There's a vacancy for a prime minister and an England football manager, you could do both those jobs on a Monday morning, and have the rest of the week to post here, so please don't go.

Just a thought, a man of your means needs a challenge.

 

[Scimitar]

Greetings and peace be with you Timi Scar;

And the peace upon you too my cousin in faith,

There's a vacancy for a prime minister and an England football manager, you could do both those jobs on a Monday morning, and have the rest of the week to post here, so please don't go.

It's tempting,

I'd call it, the Shepherd party,

I'd lead the sheep right over the proverbial cliff too, where the ships are waiting by the white cliffs of Dover - and from there we'd travel the "old fashioned way" to sunnier climes.

Al Idrisi in his tabulus rogeriana described England as a nation "perpetually shrouded in cloud" boy was he right!!!

Just a thought, a man of your means needs a challenge.

I'd prefer to take a holiday, and actually learn to sleep at night for once in nine years, but you know - old habits die hard. All that jazz. Meh.

If it wasn't for members such as yourself, I'd have left ages ago. Speaking of which, some of the "Old Guard" don't post anymore... they moved on, and i'm caught between that proverbial rock and hard place.

Scimi

 

[kritikvernunft]

we DO believe that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam was able to heal people.

I am willing to compromise here, and drop my opposition to Jesus and Mary, because I do not want to go against the Quran nor against the Muslims. Therefore, I relegate the answer to this question to the next life. I will leave the question unanswered in this one.

that all gets into the question of mind over matter, because the "false" prophets could heal people too! how do you explain that?

Because in God I trust and in nothing else. How hard would it be to secretly attack someone with some poison, and then heal him, by providing him with the antidote. This person will now be healed and he will now believe in you. I will still not believe in such person, because that person is not God, while in God we trust and in nothing else.

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Yes, true, everything else -- that is not God -- must be treated with varying degrees of suspicion.

31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

Yes, you may love your neighbour, but I will still view him with varying degrees of suspicion.
Therefore, I may somehow love him, but certainly not trust him, because in God we trust, and in nothing else.

I will also not love all neighbours equally.

"This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H.
in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' (in Mecca).

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by his greater obedience to the laws of god and his good works."

Therefore, ceteris paribus, I love neighbours in proportion to their obedience of the laws of God. Furthermore, love is a variable that can be mapped in a consistent way on a continuous domain that includes negative values. Therefore, it is perfectly possible and even consistent to extend negative values of love to particular neighbours. It would still be "love" in a sense.

But then again, I am in no way bound by what Mark writes. As a matter of general policy, I actually reprobate all of his writings, including his Gospel.

 

[Scimitar]

I am willing to compromise here, and drop my opposition to Jesus and Mary, because I do not want to go against the Quran nor against the Muslims. Therefore, I relegate the answer to this question to the next life. I will leave the question unanswered in this one.....

Come on fella, I just showed you how the Qur'an contains an example of a "miracle of Jesus" while he was a baby - which you cannot say was faked.

How plead ye?

Scimi

 

[kritikvernunft]

Come on fella, I just showed you how the Qur'an contains an example of a "miracle of Jesus" while he was a baby - which you cannot say was faked.

As I have clarified already, for political reasons, I have dropped opposition against miracles mentioned in the Quran, and relegated the question to the next life, where and when I hope to become informed what all of the needless miraculating was supposed to be about. In the meanwhile, I think there is no point to argue over this. There is no compulsion in religion, and everybody obviously believe what they want.

 

[Scimitar]

fair enough.

You are right, there is no compulsion in religion... but I do wonder, when you quote Qur'an like this and agree with it - agree with "there is only one God" and seem to be unclear regarding the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh, how close are you (on your own terms) to Islam? Your natural state gravitates towards Islam I feel, from what you have shared here.

No one here will try to convert you though.

Only God guides,

May God guide you, Ameen

Scimi