What would you ask a potential partner?

[CosmicPathos]

anyone can buy flowers and chocolate box ... I really dont see it as a sign of "love." And I've said, who knows what love is. It is all about needs. Men's biological needs and that of having some close friend in life, and women's emotional needs as well as biological which enforce her emotional needs. If the paragon of love, the so called "motherly love," is okay with aborting fetuses and own babies, I've lost faith that anything called "love" exists, except that to one's Lord. Even in that love we are not sure if our Lord loves us back or not. (I digress).

When s*** hits the fan, only then the true character comes out.

If you deep inside keep on trying to make your wife "pleased," she never will be. If you become too dependent on her approval, she might even start looking elsewhere. Sure, listening to her twice a week and saying some romanchic words here and that would keep her around, but dont make it your goal of life. Such guys comes across as sissy and wife-pets. And in the end if she leaves, it is YOU who will get hurt. Same applies to sisters as well. We have to be very cautious of where we lower our guards.

 

[CosmicPathos]

That will and ability to provide, that responsibility, is what makes a man.

We are in 21st century and we still do not know what makes a man. I disagree with your limited definition of a "man." What you are saying is that the man who does not want to provide and hence does not get married, is not really a man. How ridiculous! Some men are destined by Allah to not get married, who are you to call them any less of being "men."

The will and ability to provide, that makes him appear as a "real man" to a woman, but not to reality. Everyone has different perceptions based on what they need. Of course a woman only produces one precious egg every month, she wants to make sure the person who fertilizes it is going to value it. It is opposite with the male, who produces wasteful number of sperms, so it is natural for men to have babies and move on with life and not pay as much attention to them as the mother does.

 

[Muezzin]

We are in 21st century and we still do not know what makes a man. I disagree with your limited definition of a "man." What you are saying is that the man who does not want to provide and hence does not get married, is not really a man.How ridiculous! Some men are destined by Allah to not get married, who are you to call them any less of being "men."

That's a strawman argument because you're putting words into my mouth, yet I can see where you're coming from. You agree that men are traditionally 'hunter-gatherers', correct? Does it not follow that (generally speaking) a mature human male's impulse is to provide for his loved ones?

The will and ability to provide, that makes him appear as a "real man" to a woman, but not to reality.

Reality is irrelevant when discussing love for one's family, for better or worse.

Everyone has different perceptions based on what they need. Of course a woman only produces one precious egg every month, she wants to make sure the person who fertilizes it is going to value it. It is opposite with the male, who produces wasteful number of sperms, so it is natural for men to have babies and move on with life and not pay as much attention to them as the mother does.

A good father cares for his family. That's all.

 

[CosmicPathos]

A good father cares for his family. That's all.

That's what the people who are needy and will want to be cared for will want to define a "good father" as. Hardly a universal rule one should stick to in order to be "good."

That's a strawman argument because you're putting words into my mouth, yet I can see where you're coming from. You agree that men are traditionally 'hunter-gatherers', correct? Does it not follow that (generally speaking) a mature human male's impulse is to provide for his loved ones?

Not a strawman. It followed from your argument, did not it. If the ability to gives makes one a real men, then the opposite must be true? The one who does not give must not be a real man. Correct me if it does not logically follow your argument.

Hunterer-gatherer role was to hunt and feed himself, then his family, and then his tribe/clan. But those who did not hunt, were they less of men? They broke off from the tradition, and I think that is a good thing, to rebel against traditions requires bravery and lunacy.

 

[Muezzin]

That's what the people who want to be cared will want to define a "good father" as.

What is your definiton of a good father?

Not a strawman. It followed from your argument, did not it. If the ability to gives makes one a real men, then the opposite must be true? The one who does not give must not be a real man. Correct me if it does not logically follow your argument.

I see. I should have phrased it more accurately. A good father and husband must be responsibile and provide for his family, and put their needs above his own (from my personal point of view). It's a lot like how I view a good leader come to think of it.

Hunterer-gatherer role was to hunt and feed himself, then his family, and then his tribe/clan. But those who did not hunt, were they less of men?

Those that did not hunt must have done something to justify having a mate and offspring. Those that did not hunt surely cared and provided for the same?

 

[Endymion]

Interesting thread.But im thinking if asking questions can give you the right idea of the person :hmm:

 

[CosmicPathos]

Those that did not hunt must have done something to justify having a mate and offspring.

Not necessarily. I guess just the process of mating justifies having a mate. Perhaps at least in those olden times?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Phones and gym = luxury? Now I've heard everything. :heated:

 

[CosmicPathos]

What is your definiton of a good father?

I dont have one. Good and bad is subjective to circumstances.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

honestly guys its whats inside that matters most and no amount of questions can let us see that.


thats why recomendations and istikhara is so important.

 

[Cabdullahi]

those who didn't hunt were laughed at by all the fertile women.

 

[CosmicPathos]

those who didn't hunt were laughed at by all the fertile women.

haha. You are true to some extent. The alpha male who got to mate with different fertile women did need to have some presence and reputation in society as a brave/awesome man so the women could know such a man exists.

and think about it, we could be progeny of one such alpha male from 50,000 years ago who impregnated one such woman. Scary eh.

 

[Muezzin]

That's what the people who are needy and will want to be cared for will want to define a "good father" as.

So a man who cares for his family is 'needy and will want to be cared for', and by implication is therefore somehow lacking in masculinity. Um, okay. I'm guessing I've misunderstood your point.

Hardly a universal rule one should stick to in order to be "good."

Not caring for family = also 'good'?

I really don't follow.

I dont have one. Good and bad is subjective to circumstances.

Okay. What's a 'model' father for you, then? How would you prefer people act towards their spouse and offspring? I'm just trying to get an idea here.

Not necessarily. I guess just the process of mating justifies having a mate. Perhaps at least in those olden times?

For good or bad, times appear to have changed.

and think about it, we could be progeny of one such alpha male from 50,000 years ago who impregnated one such woman. Scary eh.

Though on the bright side, we may have inherited some of those 'alpha male' (hate that term, it tends to be used to justify butthead behaviour) genes. You too could slay a mammoth!

 

[CosmicPathos]

For good or bad, times appear to have changed.

Sure. But the underlying genes, desires, needs, remain the same. I dont believe in time-dependent acts.

Okay. What's a 'model' father for you, then? How would you prefer people act towards their spouse and offspring? I'm just trying to get an idea here.

Why do we need to have a "model" father? Cant we just have a father and that's it? Is not just having/knowing someone from whom we came forth enough?

 

[Muezzin]

Sure. But the underlying genes, desires, needs, remain the same. I dont believe in time-dependent acts.

Do you believe in the institution of marriage?

Why do we need to have a "model" father? Cant we just have a father and that's it? Is not just having/knowing someone from whom we came forth enough?

In a word, no. That's not enough. Children need father figures to look up to, not just as a progenitor but as a role model. It's crucial for their development. Children from broken homes tend to seek surrogate fathers out for this reason.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Do you believe in the institution of marriage?

Islamically, I do and I wish institution of marriage was strong and pure. Realistically, I am not sure if institution of marriage is needed at all. Majority of humans seem to get whatever they need without it. Men have always kept "mistresses" aside their marriage. Women have always kept lovers outside of marriage. All since time immemorial.

In a word, no. That's not enough. Children need father figures to look up to, not just as a progenitor but as a role model. It's crucial for their development. Children from broken homes tend to seek surrogate fathers out for this reason.

Prophet pbuh grew up without a father. And we believe him to be a role model. So I do not know how valid your statement is.

 

[White Rose]

Why do we need to have a "model" father? Cant we just have a father and that's it? Is not just having/knowing someone from whom we came forth enough?

My goodness akhi, this deeply saddens me. Why do we compare our Prophet to us people? He was guided divinely...but are we guided divinely? We need to have a good mother and a father to be a role model for us. Not everyone is born and grows up to be automatically good. We need guidance or else we can go on the wrong path.

 

[Muezzin]

Islamically, I do and I wish institution of marriage was strong and pure. Realistically, I am not sure if institution of marriage is needed at all. Majority of humans seem to get whatever they need without it. Men have always kept "mistresses" aside their marriage. Women have always kept lovers outside of marriage. All since time immemorial.

I see where you're coming from. However, by that logic, realistically, we don't need laws either, because people will always steal and murder. It doesn't mean everyone will always break those laws, nor does it mean we give up hope in justice and stop seeking it.

Prophet pbuh grew up without a father. And we believe him to be a role model. So I do not know how valid your statement is.

The father of the Prophet pbuh passed away. The Prophet pbuh himself is a role model as a father.

Neither of the above was a deadbeat dad who sowed his oats and got the heck out of there. The deadbeat dad is the kind of father I would never wish on anyone, and which I think is an objective example of 'bad' parenting.

 

[Cabdullahi]

Islamically, I do and I wish institution of marriage was strong and pure. Realistically, I am not sure if institution of marriage is needed at all. Majority of humans seem to get whatever they need without it. Men have always kept "mistresses" aside their marriage. Women have always kept lovers outside of marriage. All since time immemorial.

Don't worry about her having a lover on the side, what you can do is make sure that you stay pure, do your job according to Qur'an and sunnah, worry about you and don't let the Coolidge effect get the better of you.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Neither of the above was a deadbeat dad who sowed his oats and got the heck out of there. The deadbeat dad is the kind of father I would never wish on anyone, and which I think is an objective example of 'bad' parenting.

I think the same way as you do about such mothers or fathers. But reality is always opposite to what we wish or hope for.