When was the Bible corrupted?

Frankly I have reservation on your proper understanding of your own religion let alone other theological texts... But let's not get into that.. I know how you like to pick and choose renderings to a level suitable in fostering your life style!
peace!
 
What interpretation you are talking about?!!

Did Jesus fulfill Isaiah 53?

that is what I want to debate

but it seems you are not ready or not interested to discuss it.

peace


Go ahead, but that won't tell us whether the Bible is corrupted. It begins with an assumption that Isaiah wrote that as a prophecy with regard to the future Messiah, you will note already that Rav rejects that as an incorrect reading the of the text, hence we are already exposed to interpretation. But, let us assume that we agreed that it was a prophecy in reference to the Messiah and we applied it to Jesus and you were to show that it wasn't completely fulfilled. What would that show? Not that the Bible was corrupted, only that either (a) Christians applied it wrong, or (b) assuming that Christians applied it correctly that it was untrue.

You may not think that there is a distinction between corrupted and untrue, but they are different questions. You told me that you could objectively prove that the Bible was corrupted, you seemed willing to discuss any aspect of it, I suggested the one I was interested in seeing you prove. And now you have switched to wishing to discuss something else. You're right I'm not interested in discussing it. There are too many aspects of understanding that have to assumed in order to properly discuss it, thus the nature of the text means that it cannot be discussed objectively, and thus it doesn't fit what we originally talked about. But that's OK. You're within your rights as a human being to change your mind. And I to stick with mine.
 
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I really sorry but I don't think an impartial referee would let you away with that. I'm afraid it has to stand as an error. If the scripture said 3 days in the heart of the earth then I would let you have it. but it says 3 days and 3 nights and despite your persuasive talk of vegetables and 5-day-weeks Friday pm to Sunday am can never be 3 days and 3 nights. although Rav is hardly an impartial referee he could perhaps enlighten us as to the linguistics, although it feels like flogging a dead horse.

peace


Agreed to both of your final points. If you see it as an error, then that is how you see it. But run it by Rav or someone else on the "Questions answered by a Jew" thread if they are willing to consider it.

Now, this actually well illustrates my point with regard to what back-to-faith wants to discuss. If Jesus actually said it, and Matthew accurately recorded it, then Matthew is not corrupting the Bible, you are just asserting that Jesus would have been wrong. If I understand you correctly, your argument that Matthew has corrupted it, is based on an assumption that Jesus never would have said something like this to begin with so therefore if there is a discrepancy it is the writing that is corrupted, rather than either Jesus' comment being in error or our understanding/application of that comment being in error.
 
I even have one particular proposition that the Bible claims to have been true in the life of Jesus that I believe you claim is untrue. I would like you to prove, objectively and without reference to the Qur'an, that the Bible is in error with regard to the assertions of all 4 Gospel writers and the recorded testimony of Peter and Paul that Jesus was crucified.

I believe this was the proposition Grace Seeker offered earlier. I had trouble remembering what it was and figured others may be looking for it also.
 
Frankly I have reservation on your proper understanding of your own religion let alone other theological texts... But let's not get into that.. I know how you like to pick and choose renderings to a level suitable in fostering your life style!
peace!


Why don't you be a little nicer sometimes? You have no knowledge of how I view religion, nor do you have any knowledge of my life. You might think you do here and there, but you don't.

And I do not render anything.

PM me is you want to discuss.
 
Why don't you be a little nicer sometimes? You have no knowledge of how I view religion, nor do you have any knowledge of my life. You might think you do here and there, but you don't.

And I do not render anything.

PM me is you want to discuss.

I think your views are manifestly obvious from your posts...
There is nothing more to impart or that would necessitate a PM, you've shared your view and I mine.. there is no harm in that!

peace!
 
No, there's not a problem at all with that! But I think sometimes you should be a little nicer when posting.

I am a liberal. I have a liberal interpreation of the Bible. Nothing wrong with that! I would think that out of anyone, the muslims would be the most tolerant of different interpretations.. itjihad or whatever it's called. Maybe I am wrong about itjihad and what it means.. Who knows.
 
But, let us assume that we agreed that it was a prophecy in reference to the Messiah and we applied it to Jesus and you were to show that it wasn't completely fulfilled. What would that show? Not that the Bible was corrupted, only that either (a) Christians applied it wrong, or (b) assuming that Christians applied it correctly that it was untrue.

.

Hold on seeker...

What would show that (Isaiah 53) wasn't completely fulfilled ?
is it that Christians applied it wrong?

If mere christianshad applied it wrong,there woul have never been a claim for Bible corruption.

The problem is bigger and touch the trustworthy and validity of both the NT and its writers as well !!

In the Book of ,Acts 8:34-35 in which so called author, Luke, describes a scene in which God commands Philip the Apostle to approach an Ethiopian eunuch who is sitting in a chariot, reading aloud to himself from the Book of Isaiah. The man explains that he does not understand what he is reading, (Isaiah 53), and Philip explains to him that it is Jesus to whom the passage refers. "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


If the inspired writers that wrote under the guidance and the inspiration of the holy spirit,claimed that Isaiah 53 was fulfilled by Jesus...
then if proved that they erred,means their writings (the NT) is not the word of God.......
so you,Seeker obviously erred when you claimed that the matter of(Isaiah 53)

is not related to the issue of Bible corruption.....
If the whole christian nation claimed that (Isaiah 53) was fulfilled by Jesus,there would be no problem at all,and it can't be an example of Bible corruption....but if part of the Bible (NT)claims that another part of the same bible (OT)was fulfilled ,then here the Bible and its (inspired) writers, erred.

What you argue (Christians applied it wrong) has nothing with Isaiah 53

you can say that with the passage of Isaiah:9 (unto us a child is born etc)

such passage ,has never been used by the (Inspired) writers.....only by christians ..so that can't be an example of Bible corruption....it is simply misuse by christians which has nothing to do with the issue of Bible inspiration.
Man errs ,the Bible and its inspired writers not.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit
 
Now, this actually well illustrates my point with regard to what back-to-faith wants to discuss. If Jesus actually said it, and Matthew accurately recorded it, then Matthew is not corrupting the Bible, you are just asserting that Jesus would have been wrong. .

Seeker ,Don't put the cart front of the horse

the issue according to muslims:

1-Jesus promised to stay 3 days and 3 nights.

2-the narratives according to the 4 NT writings,proved that to be unfulfilled.
3-a proof that the writers put such false statemnet in the mouth of Jesus(PBUH).

4-and so the NT writings proved to be corrupted by its writers.

you obviously ,fond of repeating issues that have been discussed before lots of time...and ignore my proposal of new,fresh topics such as Isaiah 53 !!!!! which is strongly related to the issue of Bible corruption as I mentioned before......
 
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Quran 5
46 Then in the footsteps of those Prophets, We sent Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam
confirming whatever remained intact from the Taurat in his time, and gave him
the Injeel wherein was guidance and light, corroborating what was
revealed in the Taurat; a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47 Therefore, let the people who follow the Injeel judge by the Law which
Allah has revealed therein; those who do not judge by the Law which Allah has
revealed, they are the transgressors.

48 To you, O Muhammad, We have revealed this Book with the truth. It confirms
whatever has remained intact in the scriptures which came before it and also to
safeguard it. ...

We see that the Injeel (scripture or book) was revealed to Prophet Jesus (as) not to Paul, John, Luke, etc. From the very beginning of Christianity, the scripture revealed to Jesus (as) was only partially preserved as indicated by the very few red letter quotes in the gospels. I believe that there has never existed a comprehensive recording of the message revealed to Jesus (as) while he walked on earth. For that matter even between the gospels rarely is the same quote in the same situation identical to that in the others. So if they are not the same between the gospels, how can we be sure that any of the quotes are exactly what Jesus (as) spoke?

Technically speaking, the Bible per se has probably been reliably preserved, but I contend that the NT (not even the gospels) is not the unadulterated message revealed to Prophet Jesus.
 
Technically speaking, the Bible per se has probably been reliably preserved, but I contend that the NT (not even the gospels) is not the unadulterated message revealed to Prophet Jesus.


And I, not being one who holds to the theory of a literal and verbally inspired (i.e. dictated) view of scripture, have no argument with that.

When I speak of the reliability of the scriptures, I am talking about trusting that what we have today is essentially what was actually written by the original authors. The issue of whether or not they can be trusted to tell us the truth and speak forth authoritatively on God's behalf is a second issue that I address independently of the first.
 
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Hold on seeker...

What would show that (Isaiah 53) wasn't completely fulfilled ?
is it that Christians applied it wrong?

If mere christianshad applied it wrong,there woul have never been a claim for Bible corruption.

The problem is bigger and touch the trustworthy and validity of both the NT and its writers as well !!

In the Book of ,Acts 8:34-35 in which so called author, Luke, describes a scene in which God commands Philip the Apostle to approach an Ethiopian eunuch who is sitting in a chariot, reading aloud to himself from the Book of Isaiah. The man explains that he does not understand what he is reading, (Isaiah 53), and Philip explains to him that it is Jesus to whom the passage refers. "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


If the inspired writers that wrote under the guidance and the inspiration of the holy spirit,claimed that Isaiah 53 was fulfilled by Jesus...
then if proved that they erred,means their writings (the NT) is not the word of God.......
so you,Seeker obviously erred when you claimed that the matter of(Isaiah 53)

is not related to the issue of Bible corruption.....
If the whole christian nation claimed that (Isaiah 53) was fulfilled by Jesus,there would be no problem at all,and it can't be an example of Bible corruption....but if part of the Bible (NT)claims that another part of the same bible (OT)was fulfilled ,then here the Bible and its (inspired) writers, erred.

What you argue (Christians applied it wrong) has nothing with Isaiah 53

you can say that with the passage of Isaiah:9 (unto us a child is born etc)

such passage ,has never been used by the (Inspired) writers.....only by christians ..so that can't be an example of Bible corruption....it is simply misuse by christians which has nothing to do with the issue of Bible inspiration.
Man errs ,the Bible and its inspired writers not.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit


I gave two options, you have attacked that idea that it was applied wrong. I also offered the option that it was simply untrue. And like a also said, you may see being untrue and corrupted as the same thing, but they actually are distinctly different questions.

A lie, though untrue, can be preserved uncorrupted. Of course it still remains a lie. If you think that the Bible used by Jews and Christians is a lie you certainly are entitled to that opinion. You wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last.

But you wish to discuss a point with reference to Isaiah 53 that I am not interested in, especially as you project views on to me with regard to my view of scripture that I don't hold. Find someone who holds to the theory of the literal verbal inspiration of scripture and argue with them.
 
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Seeker ,Don't put the cart front of the horse

the issue according to muslims:

1-Jesus promised to stay 3 days and 3 nights.

2-the narratives according to the 4 NT writings,proved that to be unfulfilled.
3-a proof that the writers put such false statemnet in the mouth of Jesus(PBUH).

4-and so the NT writings proved to be corrupted by its writers.

you obviously ,fond of repeating issues that have been discussed before lots of time...and ignore my proposal of new,fresh topics such as Isaiah 53 !!!!! which is strongly related to the issue of Bible corruption as I mentioned before......



Again, if you read what I wrote about the way a reference to "3 days and 3 nights" would have been understood by Jesus' contemporaries, Jesus' could have been in the tomb as little as 24 hours and 2 minutes (the last minute of daylight on Friday to the first minute of evening on Saturday) and still have been seen as fulfilling that promise. So as to your 4 points, I have 4 of my own.

1) You still seek to make Jesus say what you wish for him to say rather than understand what he actually said.

2) Tell me that Jesus resurrected sometime before sunset Saturday and I will agree with you that Jesus was wrong.

3) Tell me that he didn't arise from the tomb until around dawn on Sunday morning and I'll say that I was confused by that 3 day & 3 night reference until I learned to tell time as first century Jews do. ummzayd and I have agreed that we would need an impartial referee to enlighten us on these linguistics. Neither you nor I can serve in this capacity, so you are free to think as you think and I as I think, and the end result is that no one has proved anything to anyone.

4) Isaiah 53 is also an old topic. Our conversation began here:
Originally Posted by back_to_faith
with all the incredible number of errors, contradictions, and fallacies in Bible,
I have strong, objective reasons to prove the Bible to be in error without using a product of faith and belief,and ignoring what the Quran accuses the Bible.....
I think this is off topic, but I am willing to give it one go round before asking such discussions be moved to another thread. So... NOT referring to the Qur'an, or any other group's faith documents, what are the reasons that you believe the Bible to be in error?

Now again, I'm looking for this to be about the Bible, not about respective faith positions. In other words, if the Bible says that the moon around the seventh planet of some distant star we have never heard of is supposedly made out of green cheese, then disputing such a statement couldn't be made on the grounds that our moon nor any other we know of is not made out of green cheese. It would have to be made on actual knowledge that this particular moon is not made out of green cheese, which would be hard to do if it talks about a solar system we have never heard of, but nonetheless could be there. This standard is one that you set, but before you attempt to prove things by it, I want you to know that I intend to hold you to that standard. The Bible does indeed make many faith statements, but you have said that you can prove it is in error "without using a product of faith and belief" and even ignoring the Qur'an.

I even have one particular proposition that the Bible claims to have been true in the life of Jesus that I believe you claim is untrue. I would like you to prove, objectively and without reference to the Qur'an, that the Bible is in error with regard to the assertions of all 4 Gospel writers and the recorded testimony of Peter and Paul that Jesus was crucified.

That was the original offer/request. If you don't wish to attempt to prove objectively and without reference to the Qur'an that the Bible is in error that Jesus was crucifide then fine. Just like I have no interest in discussing Isaiah 53, you are not required to have an interest in disproving the crucifixion.
 
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And I, not being one who holds to the theory of a literal and verbally inspired (i.e. dictated) view of scripture, have no argument with that.
Do you believe that each of the NT authors were individually inspired by God to write what they did? Paul claims in Galatians to have received a revelation from God/Jesus as does John in Revelation. Did the other NT authors get a personal revelation from God too?

When I speak of the reliability of the scriptures, I am talking about trusting that what we have today is essentially what was actually written by the original authors. The issue of whether or not they can be trusted to tell us the truth and speak forth authoritatively on God's behalf is a second issue that I address independently of the first.
I understand your point that the Bible we have today may be essentially the same as what was written in the 1st century and then approved in the 4th century. Have all of the Dead Sea Scrolls been made public to verify or refute this statement?
 
And I, not being one who holds to the theory of a literal and verbally inspired (i.e. dictated) view of scripture, have no argument with that.

.

To those who hold not the theory of a literal and verbally inspired view of scripture,I invite them to repent it and listen to the advice of Gleason Archer in his Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties !!

After explaining that witnesses in a court of law lose all credibility once they have been caught lying, he applied this principle to the Bible.

(The same is true of Holy Scripture. If the statements it contains concerning matters of history and science can be proven by extrabiblical records, by ancient documents uncovered through archaeological digs, or by the established facts of modern science to be contrary to the truth, then there is grave doubt as to it trustworthiness in matters of religion. In other words, if the biblical record can be proved fallible in areas of fact that can be verified, then it is hardly to be trusted in areas where it cannot be tested. As a witness for God, the Bible would be discredited as untrustworthy. What solid truth it may contain would be left as a matter of mere conjecture, subject to the intuition or canons of likelihood of each individual. An attitude of sentimental attachment to traditional religion may incline one person to accept nearly all the substantive teachings of Scripture as probably true. But someone else with equal justification may pick and chose whatever teachings in the Bible happen to appeal to him and lay equal claim to legitimacy. One opinion is as good as another. All things are possible, but nothing is certain if indeed the Bible contains mistakes or errors of any kind (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties pp. 23-24, ).

it seems a bit idiotic to me to call a book "the word of God" if the words in that book are not the words of God but only the words of fallible men who were given "ideas" to record in their own words. Anyone with any kind of background in writing should know that this is a ridiculous premise.

Actually the Bible teaches that "the word of God" came to man through a process of verbal inspiration

It teaches that God put his words into the mouths of the Old Testament prophets and at times ordered them to write "his words" that had been revealed to them


In Isaiah 51:16, the prophet had Yahweh saying to him, "I have put my words in your mouth." The same claim was made in Jeremiah 1:9, "Then Yahweh put forth his hand, and touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, Behold I have put my words into your mouth." Jeremiah had opened his book with the claim that the "word of Yahweh came to [him], saying..." (1:4), and thereafter he frequently claimed that what he was saying were the "words of Yahweh."
so obviously he was not claiming that Yahweh had given him just the "ideas" that he was preaching but that Yahweh had given him the very words that he spoke.

(Ezek. 6:1; 7:1; 12:1; 13:1; 15:1; 16:1; 17:1; 18:1; etc., etc., etc.). Hosea claimed that the "word of Yahweh" had come to him (1:1), and so did Joel (1:1), and so did Jonah (1:1), and so did Micah (1:1), etc., etc., etc


Exodus 24:3 Moses came and told the people all the words of Yahweh and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, "All the words that Yahweh has spoken we will do.4 And Moses wrote down all the words of Yahweh.

the people understood that they had heard him read not the "ideas" of Yahweh but the WORDS of Yahweh.

Jeremiah, whose claim that Yahweh touched his mouth and put his words into the prophet's mouth we have already noticed, later claimed that he wrote down the words that Yahweh had spoken to him: "The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh: Thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel: ‘Write in a book all the words that I have spoken to you’ (30:1-2).


Matthew 10:16 "See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of them, for they will hand you over to councils and flog you in their synagogues; 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings because of me, as a testimony to them and the Gentiles. 19 When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you at that time; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.


2 Peter 1:19
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

but if God gave only the "ideas" to prophets, rather than putting his words into their mouths as Isaiah and Jeremiah claimed, then the prophecy would be very much something that had come "by human will." He concluded by saying that men and women "moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Can anyone imagine how it would be at all possible that someone who was "moved by the Holy Spirit" to "speak from God" could say something that wasn't true? If that should happen, then it would necessarily follow that the Holy Spirit had "moved" this person to say something that was inaccurate.

It is very evident that both the Old Testament and New Testament taught that those whom God or the Holy Spirit inspired were guided on a verbal basis in what they said and wrote. In other words, their very words were the words of God and not their own.
The doctrine of verbal inspiration is the only effective description of the process of guidance that the Bible claims that God used in guiding his inspired ones into "all truth." This doctrine is the exact reason why so many Bible believers also believe in biblical inerrancy. This belief is a logical consequence of the doctrine of verbal inspiration.
(Traditional Biblical Inerrancy P:2)
 
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1) You still seek to make Jesus say what you wish for him to say rather than understand what he actually said.

2) Tell me that Jesus resurrected sometime before sunset Saturday and I will agree with you that Jesus was wrong.

3) Tell me that he didn't arise from the tomb until around dawn on Sunday morning and I'll say that I was confused by that 3 day & 3 night reference until I learned to tell time as first century Jews do. ummzayd and I have agreed that we would need an impartial referee to enlighten us on these linguistics. Neither you nor I can serve in this capacity, so you are free to think as you think and I as I think, and the end result is that no one has proved anything to anyone.

.

Seeker,You are at it again ...When will you ever learn?!

first of all you have no idea regarding my capacity on Hebrew linguistics.

second:
you ignored totally the thread I showed which I refuted totally,the arguments you repeat.


One could search till the day of Judgment and never finds that there is such idiom in the Hebrew language :

(part of a day (as opposed to night) ,reckoned as a day and a night)

only It is possibile that A part of a day was reckoned as a day and a part of a night was reckoned as a night .

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/40313-did-jesus-die-rise-dead-11.html


best way to understand the Jewish way of reckoning ,to hear it from their mouth:

excert from Jewsforjudaism


While it is true that according to Jewish law part of the day is equivalent to a full day, Matthew's Jesus promised to be buried specifically for three days and three nights. By the use of the phrase "three days and three nights," Matthew's Jesus indicated that he expected to be buried for three consecutive periods between dawn and dark (day) and dark and dawn (night), or approximately seventy- two hours. The Scriptures employ the phrase "three days" in a more general sense than that expressed by "three days and three nights." For example, "three days" does not necessarily include the period of day or night at either the beginning or end of the total time to be indicated. Therefore, when the phrase "three days" is meant to specifically include three days and three nights, and this is not evident from the text, it must be stated as such: ". . . neither eat nor drink three days, night or day . . ." (Esther 4:16). However, when the phrase "three days and three nights" is stated, it includes either all three days and all three nights or can be deficient in only parts of a day or night at the beginning or end of the entire period, but never of a full segment of day or night out of twenty-four hours (1 Samuel 30:11-13). Although Jesus did not have to be buried exactly seventy-two hours, he did have to be buried at least on parts of three days and three nights. Jesus died on a Friday at the ninth hour, which corresponds to about 3 P.M. The claim is made that Jesus rose three days later, on a Sunday. This would mean that he was buried during the daylight hours of three different days. If this was true, he was buried for only two nights.



What shoots the whole argument in the foot is the narrative of John :

"On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1).

Thus, John says that Jesus, having risen before the dawn of Sunday morning, was buried for only two days and two nights, i.e., one full day (Saturday), part of another (Friday), and two nights (Friday and Saturday nights).

you said:

(Tell me that he didn't arise from the tomb until around dawn on Sunday morning and I'll say that I was confused by that 3 day & 3 night reference )

I say:

(you who should Tell me that he didn't arise from the tomb until 5 minutes after sunset on Sunday and I'll say that I was confused by that 3 day & 3 night reference) .


The burden now on your shoulder,Seeker to find a reference of first century ,or any other century Jews or any other humans ,that used such idiom :(part of a day (as opposed to night) ,reckoned as a day and a night)

till you cite a source,your argument holds no merit.
 
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When I speak of the reliability of the scriptures, I am talking about trusting that what we have today is essentially what was actually written by the original authors. .


And whom the original authors, to begin with?

where are their original writings,to compare them with what we have today?
 
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The Bible does indeed make many faith statements, but you have said that you can prove it is in error "without using a product of faith and belief" and even ignoring the Qur'an.

I even have one particular proposition that the Bible claims to have been true in the life of Jesus that I believe you claim is untrue. I would like you to prove, objectively and without reference to the Qur'an, that the Bible is in error with regard to the assertions of all 4 Gospel writers and the recorded testimony of Peter and Paul that Jesus was crucified.

I believe this is still the issue at hand.
 
I believe this is still the issue at hand.


No. I don't intend to push it. When he said that he could disprove something about the Bible, he didn't say that he could disprove just anything I asked about. I have apparently chosen something, the crucifixion of Jesus, that cannot be disproven by objective means. And I am content to let it rest at that.


As to back-to-faith's points about the 3 days and 3 nights, they are well taken. The information I was sharing wasn't my own, but it also wasn't first century research, it was the opinions of modern commentators. So, now we have JewsforJudaism weighing in on the subject and I have to take them seriously, as I do back-to-faith. Whether or not I can find something that is actually contemporaneus to Jesus to substantiate the view that 3 day & 3 nights could refer to the Friday afternoon to Sunday pre-dawn time period, I don't know. I will look. Until then, I thank back-to-faith for citing the source that he has.
 

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