Where are the "New Atheism" prophets?

[AntiKarateKid]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

That, I'm afraid, is because you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.



Karma is not a 'determining force', it is a process.. specifically the processes of cause and effect that exist quite happily in a purely materialistic model of the universe.



If you can 'see' that I'm afraid you have severe comprehension difficulties. I have already named two such parallels, the Buddha and Confucius. Had you actually taken the trouble to read my posts carefully before spewing such arrogant clap-trap you might have noticed I have never claimed 'religion' is not necessary. I happen to believe it is not, but even Confucianism is viewed as a 'religion' by some. What I have demonstrated not to be necessary are either prophets, the existence of God, or a belief in either.

Enough of this. I suspect you know what I am talking about but keep shoving Confucious and Buddha down my throat. Their religions are hardly an example seeing as how many sects have infused supernatural elements into them and would disagree with you. Many Buddhists even worship Buddha.

Your whole point rests on the assertion that your version of Buddhism is right and there is no supernatural element to it. You have demonstrated nothing. Other than the contradiction between your supposed atheistic view of Buddhism and such things as reincarnation.

I understand this is a somewhat controversial topic but you should tone your comments down lest you look more like a child than the pseudo-intellectual your trying to look like.

Here's some food for thought that not everyone agrees with Trumble, the self-proclaimed expert on Buddhism and confucianism, who asserts it has no spirituality.

Few followers of Confucius (550–478 BC) today have a clear belief in any Divine existence. Yet they believe in the world of spirits and souls, and some even practise ancestor worship.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

Back on topic, I'll restate my opening question slightly more clearly, so some people don't throw fits.

Why has there never been an atheistic "prophet" who asserted that freedom from religion was the best path for Humanity and developed a system of moral codes and lived a lifestyle that inspired the world?

If the Prophets were indeed madmen or liars then they were regular humans who could be outshined by others. But no pro-atheistic has ever lived a comparable life to them. By pro- I mean the above in addition to actively spreading atheism.

 

[Ali_008]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

I'm afraid the answer is not "could be", it is "no". In terms of Buddhism, the very idea is totally ludicrous. While I accept your 'offering' in the spirit in which you make it (rep inbound) I'm afraid even an elementary knowledge of Buddhism is sufficient to show that that is pretty desperate stuff; quotes picked pretty much at random and presented as meaning something they don't. To be honest I was very surprised to see that from Zakir Naik rather than, say, Harun Yahya who specializes in such nonsense.

There is no 'prophecy' regarding Mohammed, or indeed prophecy about anything at all. Buddhas arise because according the Buddhist conception of how the Universe works it is inevitable that they will. The comments on linguistics are laughable. Sanskrit (which is the wrong language here anyway, it should be Pali - although the two are closely related) is the nearest we have to a proto-typical Indo -European language, and such parallels can be identified with all modern languages from that family as well as, to a lesser extent, the semitic languages such as Arabic.

As religions, Buddhism and Islam are totally incompatible. Buddhism simply has no basis for 'prophecy', let alone for the future coming of Prophets for a God that the whole of Buddhist philosophy and belief disqualifies from even existing.

What can I say brother, a daee ought to be boycotted. When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself was persecuted with all his glorious & righteous past and the divine revelations he had then Zakir Naik and Harun Yahya are nothing when compared to the Prophet. Surah Anam, verse 69 says

Those who fear Allah, keep their duty to Him and avoid evil are not responsible for them (the disbelievers) in any case, but (their duty) is to remind them, that they may avoid that (mockery at the Qur'an).

Well I've seen criticism for Zakir Naik but its the first time I've come across someone who accusses,the exemplary Harun Yahya, of falsehood. The man dedicated his entire life in various studies just to prove that Qur'an comes from God and even Zakir Naik's efforts have been no less. Its absolutely obnoxious to see such Human Reformers being criticised. Anyway, I think we've already swayed from the topic.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

How hard is it to try and respond to my assertion that there was no great atheist figure that taught so many people and civilizations to be moral. No atheist philosopher or scholar or anything.

Because such people do not identify their movements with their atheism. Once you understand that atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in something you will understand this point. If the point you are trying to make is that atheism doesn't inspire people to do great things, I would agree with that. Atheism is not an ideology or a motivator. Atheists are motivated by things other than their lack of belief in something.

And clearly you do misunderstand if you think of atheists as people who oppose religion. Those are anti-theists. I lean in that direction. Most atheists do not.

 

[Gubbleknucker]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

And clearly you do misunderstand if you think of atheists as people who oppose religion. Those are anti-theists. I lean in that direction. Most atheists do not.

I do. I think everyone would be better off without fairy worship.

Just think of all the time you would save if you did not have to pray.

Just think of all the lives that would be saved if there were no holy wars.

Just think...

 

[Ali_008]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

Ya Allah, guide each and every one of them

Man, this thread has had so many blunt replies that quoting each of them will take a complete page. Lets put it in a very simple form. The atheists are firm that there's no God and seem to be having an inclination towards Buddhism to the most but my Atheist brothers let me tell something which religion gives you and regardless of what you do you'll never be able to attain it without religion. Its something called Peace. Trust me the tranquility you come across by being Pious, by being Religious, by following the doctrines is unparallel. An atheist does whatever he want, he has no set of standards. To be honest, every terrorist who claims to be a Jihadist or Islamic is in actuality an Atheist. yeah, I say that again Every Terrorist is an Atheist because killing innocent people is not encouraged in any religion. Zero. Moreover, Islam considers killing of just a single human being equal to the killing of entire humanity, as stated in Surah Mai'da, verse 32:

If anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.

The terrorists just like Atheists follow their own opinions and just "claim" that they're serving Islam. If you want to know what a world full of Atheists will be like then imagine one where each and every citizen is a Criminal. One's a terrorist, the other's a thief, the 3rd guy's a rapist and the guy right across the street is a drug addict, the girl you see leaning on the lamppost is known for her promiscuity etc. An atheist's definiton could be someone who doesn't believe in God and so subsequently doesn't believe in any of the scriptures which means that he has his own standards of right and wrong. So, an Atheist might not consider rape to be a crime but a fair and laborous way of satisfying a need. Stealing would become totally widespread based on the claim "there has to be equality." And I advise you guys to read the book "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley which gives a picture of a world without faith and consequently a world with only tragedy and worries.

We are mere specks when compared to God and we are born stupid. Its God mercy that he keeps forgiving and guiding us no matter how much we sin. We don't know whats right for us, Allah does. Coming back to what I was saying about peace of mind. The calmness that runs through the veins of the believers is something you'll never be able to attain. The satisfaction. The Tranquility. The joy. Once you start believing, it follows you. Tell me my atheist brothers, when was the last time you rejoiced at a loss (because you know that the loss is your actual gain), the last time you felt so so so so so so so so so happy that you couldn't resist from saying "Thank you Allah, I love you Allah". The last time tears came in your eyes because of the excessiveness of happiness and you were reminded of someone's never ending mercy on you.

But still, Atheists are better than non-Muslims because they have at least proclaimed half of the shahadah i.e. La Ilaaha which means there's no God and for us Muslims to prove to the atheists is just the other half i.e. Illallah which means "but Allah".

 

[جوري]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

Just think of all the time you would save if you did not have to pray.

better spent undoubtedly browsing internet porn and returning to a more animal like state..

Just think of all the lives that would be saved if there were no holy wars.

Just think...

lives are better lost on 'un'holy wars and declaration of atheist states such as was under Enver Hoxha ..

yeah imagine that :rollseyes

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

If you want to know what a world full of Atheists will be like then imagine one where each and every citizen is a Criminal. One's a terrorist, the other's a thief, the 3rd guy's a rapist and the guy right across the street is a drug addict

If this is what you would become if you lost your faith in Islam, then I hope you never lose your faith. But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't turn into the killing, stealing, raping drug addict you fear you would if you did lose your faith. I'm pretty confident that you have the same sense of empathy and moral compass that I do, only you've burried it so far under religious dogma that you no longer recognize its there.

 

[Gubbleknucker]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

I am saddened that you actually believe these things. I can think of absolutely no atrocities committed in the name of atheism. To stereotype us as murderers is so incredibly offensive that I have seen people banned from even the theistic forums for it.

If fear of hell is necessary for you to lead a moral life, that does not make you moral by any stretch of the imagination. If you were to stop believing, do you honestly think that you would start killing, raping, maiming?

I hope not.

 

[Gubbleknucker]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

When was... The last time tears came in your eyes because of the excessiveness of happiness

Yesterday, actually.

 

[Ali_008]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

If this is what you would become if you lost your faith in Islam, then I hope you never lose your faith. But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't turn into the killing, stealing, raping drug addict you fear you would if you did lose your faith. I'm pretty confident that you have the same sense of empathy and moral compass that I do, only you've burried it so far under religious dogma that you no longer recognize its there.

:statisfie Though you misinterpreted my saying but I'll clarify it again. My dear brother, so by your response I assume that you consider the aforementioned things to be bad. But from where did you come to know that its bad. Over the milleniums it has been the scriptures that have given the sense of right and wrong. Whatever is left today of our understanding of Justice and good and evil is our little belief in the scriptures. Faith is getting worn out with time. At the beginning of time, a woman searing skimpy was considered immodest by both men and women because it was the word of God that women must dress modestly and the people followed it but today it is quite OK for a woman to wear anything she wants. Today, there's so much immodest dressing only because of people swaying away from religion and just claiming to be a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew and not following the principles. In the same regard, there might come a time when there won't be any faith at all and then the things I mentioned above will become common and may be even fashionable (God forbid). I hope you got my point, if you didn't, I've all the time in the world to explain you more.:thumbs_up

 

[جوري]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

I am saddened that you actually believe these things. I can think of absolutely no atrocities committed in the name of atheism. To stereotype us as murderers is so incredibly offensive that I have seen people banned from even the theistic forums for it.

I find it equally offensive you liken the originator of the universe to fairies, and/or delegating any war that took place to be for some 'religious' holy purpose.. as it so happens the worst massive murders that have happened, we are talking millions, have in fact happened by command of atheist leaders, and atheists have in fact declared states of atheism where they equally oppressed religious folks.. what is human life but a bunch of haphazard molecules that have no apparent purpose save for hedonistic pleasure and no spiritual fulfillment? It isn't really that different a line of thought than yours, except on a greater caliber!

If fear of hell is necessary for you to lead a moral life, that does not make you moral by any stretch of the imagination. If you were to stop believing, do you honestly think that you would start killing, raping, maiming?

I hope not.

Again, another pathetic sterotype that the only impetus for good work is dear of eternal ****ati*n -- in fact that should be the least of any religious person's concern.. no one goes to heaven or hell because of their deeds.. rather through God's grace and mercy.. perhaps you should shift gears and think that the drive maybe me immortality, meeting up with your loved ones, any number of reason if you'd let an abstract thought get through...

No one who truly belives in God would commit a major sin knowingly ... those who are given knowledge and higher state of spirituality are a handful. Those who commit crime will find some way to justify it to themselves.

I don't particuarly care for threads addressing atheists, and only see to comment when I read one of the common banalities peddled by atheists, comical indeed is their level of choler and surprise when they feel that they shouldn't be met with a like response...

fact is, you are no different than any religious zealot, only standing a dimetrical opposite..


Enjoy-- I am out of this thread

Atheist is Deacon's cyber-doppelganger. Deacon and Atheist hold equally fervent, though diametrically opposed beliefs about religion, and both feel compelled to share those beliefs at every possible opportunity. Should an unsuspecting forum member make even a passing comment about faith or spirituality of any flavor, Atheist will descend like one of the Furies, mercilessly hectoring all of the ignorant and delusional believers about the sordid history of the church and the pernicious effects of religion on society. After a few of Atheist’s anti-religious jeremiads most other Warriors will avoid the subject altogether, though Evil Clown may egg him on a little, and Philosopher may amuse himself by pointing out flaws in his reasoning. If a forum has the misfortune of having both Deacon and Atheist as members, the bickering often continues until Nanny or Admin pulls the plug. Bliss Ninny can also sometimes squelch the conversation by saying, “Well, everyone has a right to their [sic] opinion.”




all the best

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

Ali_008,

I understand your point perefectly. You think that morality comes from your religion/scripture. I completely disagree. You have an inate sense of empathy and morality. You have just burried it so deep beneath your religious beliefs that you can't tell its there anymore. But it is.

 

[Ali_008]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

Brother Pygoscelis
I'm happy that I could give you a clear picture but there's more to it. Even what we consider moral is today isn't exactly moral. Today, you'll call a person good and caring only when he helps you and thats perfectly appropriate but whats inappropriate is how he helps you. You will call someone a good friend when he helps you find excuses for showing up late at office or college, someone who shows you answers in an exam (cheating), someone who gives you special preference over others if he's charged with some authorities. The examples given make you narrow-minded in which you are only concerned about yourself. A person deprives a boss of his right of having his employees at the right time in the office, a teacher is deprived of getting to evaluate his students on a fair basis, others waiting in the queue are deprived of their rights of equal hospitality. I know its very very difficult to attain that perfect state but practice makes a man perfect and thats what we, the so-called "theists", do. No man is sinless but the one who prospers is the one who repents and makes amends.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

You will call someone a good friend when he helps you find excuses for showing up late at office or college, someone who shows you answers in an exam (cheating), someone who gives you special preference over others if he's charged with some authorities.

I will call none of those things good. Do you really think this lowly of us non-religious people?

 

[Ali_008]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

^^ No, no, absolutely not. I'm not saying that this is done by just atheists or non-religious people. What I was trying to say was that we've distanced ourselves so much from goodness and blinded ourselves that everything's become grey for us. There's no black or white, no clear cut definitions of good and bad. I get into inappropriate behavior a lot of times myself. In this age, when bad has overshadowed good, it gets more important to be the best and not just good,to keep the hope of the return of peace and happy times alive. We are already neck deep in problems and disbelief will create more problems both for disbelievers and believers though for different reasons.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

Enough of this.

Indeed, although I think I'll respond one more time, more in hope than anticipation of a sensible response. Let's take your latest one point at a time, although perhaps not in order.

Here's some food for thought that not everyone agrees with Trumble, the self-proclaimed expert on Buddhism and confucianism, who asserts it has no spirituality.

I am not a self-proclaimed expert on anything, let alone Confucianism. I am, however, a Buddhist and have been for over twenty years, and have studied Buddhism in both academic and monastic environments. I humbly suggest I might have picked up just a few things beyond your 'knowledge' of the subject, which seems to have been picked up from reading the back of a matchbox. Of course, I 'asserted' nothing of the sort... it's yet another product of your strawman factory.

Few followers of Confucius (550–478 BC) today have a clear belief in any Divine existence. Yet they believe in the world of spirits and souls, and some even practise ancestor worship.

I am impressed that your knowledge of Confucianism extends to the dates of Confucius life! However, back to reality - are you really claiming that a system of moral conduct and good government that influences billions and puts them on the 'right' moral track could exist on the basis of the worship of spirits, souls and ancestors, but not without it?!! If so, how do reconcile this with your first post? If not, what is your point?

I suspect you know what I am talking about but keep shoving Confucious and Buddha down my throat.

Of course I understand the point you are attempting to make, it is both simple and simplistic. It just happens, in my opinion, to be wrong. I'm not going to go over why - again - as that is obviously pointless. Whereas other posters might present a carefully considered case opposing that opinion, all we see from you are puerile whines of "drop it" and "off topic". You are like a small child who prefers to stick fingers in ears and chant 'la, la, la' rather than hear something they don't like.

Their religions are hardly an example seeing as how many sects have infused supernatural elements into them and would disagree with you. Many Buddhists even worship Buddha.

Your whole point rests on the assertion that your version of Buddhism is right and there is no supernatural element to it. You have demonstrated nothing.

I could only gasp in disbelief at this. I have already stated that I cannot put up much of a case for religion not being necessary - although I don't happen to believe it is. But, your claim was not for the necessity of religion, but for God and prophets. I really shouldn't have to tell you what your own claim is!! Whatever 'supernatural elements' may, or may not, exist or have existed in Buddhism or Confucianism are totally irrelevant; they do not extend to a monetheistic God or His prophets.

Other than the contradiction between your supposed atheistic view of Buddhism and such things as reincarnation.

As I have explained no such 'contradiction' exists (stick those fingers in your ears again), and any perception of same is solely the result of your own ignorance. You simply do not know what you are talking about. That might not be obvious to muslims but it is painfully obvious to Buddhists, this one at least. With that in mind;

I understand this is a somewhat controversial topic but you should tone your comments down lest you look more like a child than the pseudo-intellectual your trying to look like.

I can only suggest you follow your own advice. Whether you do or not please have the courtesy to keep such arrogant drivel to yourself in future. Attempting to patronise is bad enough at the best of times, but doing so when you are as totally out of your depth as you are is the act of a **** . Fill that in yourself.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

Well I've seen criticism for Zakir Naik but its the first time I've come across someone who accusses,the exemplary Harun Yahya, of falsehood. The man dedicated his entire life in various studies just to prove that Qur'an comes from God and even Zakir Naik's efforts have been no less. Its absolutely obnoxious to see such Human Reformers being criticised. Anyway, I think we've already swayed from the topic.

Yes, it is off topic, but I think you deserve a brief reply at least. I have never criticized Harun Yahya (or Zakir Naik) for what they might say about the Qur'an or Islam; a topic they both know infinitely more about than I do. I have, however, read what Yahya has to say about Buddhism and indeed endured the 'movie'. Both, and I can only tell you this from the perspective of a Buddhist, are full of misunderstandings and deliberate misrepresentations. I make no apologies for calling him out on that, although I do apologise for any offence you may have taken on his behalf.

Peace.

 

[Muezzin]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

I am saddened that you actually believe these things. I can think of absolutely no atrocities committed in the name of atheism.

Stalin's persecution of Christians and other genocidal tendencies?

Mao Tse-Tung's genocidal tendencies?

Pol Pot's crimes against humanity?

EDIT: I do not believe that a lack of belief in God necessarily denotes a lack of morals. However, by that same token, I dispute the insidious and insipid argument that all things harmful to humanity originate in theism.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Where are the atheist "prophets"?

I would not consider things like Stalin worship to be atheism.

atheism is a broad term - I'm not sure if the people that followed stalin (possibly out of fear rather then choice) were worshiping him.

People followed stalin because they thought he was meant to implement the communist agenda - not because they loved stalin or worshipped him.