Who is the Real Muslim?

[keiv]

It’s obviously not that clear since some people interpret it different from others , the very fact you say they are interpreting it wrong demonstrates this.

From what I understand there was an outbreak of sectarian violence between the 2 sects ( Sunni & Shiite) that there is an historical difference between the 2 , I’m trying to figure it out , best to get it from the horses miuth

According to them , they are following the teachings of the Quran.

Does the problem lie with the fact the Quran can be interpreted in more than one way.
You say it’s wrong , they say it’s right ..

Who should I believe ?

It’s not clear to all if it’s 90%
And since Muslims make up a small fraction of people on the planet ,then it’s not chart to most people .
Since Islam is only 1400 years old ( I apologise if that’s wrong) then it wasn’t clear to the billions of people that lived prior to the invention of the religion.

If something can be interpreted in more than one way ,and it is ... then it can’t be clear.

If two people have two different interpretations ,both claiming they have been give by god .... who is right ?
The one that you agree with ?

It’s obviously not that clear since some people interpret it different from others , the very fact you say they are interpreting it wrong demonstrates this.

From what I understand there was an outbreak of sectarian violence between the 2 sects ( Sunni & Shiite) that there is an historical difference between the 2 , I’m trying to figure it out , best to get it from the horses miuth

Anyone can interpret any text whichever way they see fit to them. What we're commanded to do is to follow the Quran as well as the ways of prophet Muhammad :saws1:. He is the leader of our ummah just as other prophets were the leaders of their people at their respective times. If we look at the actions of certain groups of Muslims and compare that to what our prophet :saws1: did, that speaks for itself. The interrpretation of text is part of learning the religion, but it goes hand in hand with studying the actions of our great prophet :saws1: Interpretation means nothing if it goes against the sunnah.

It really is a simple concept to understand..

 

[M.I.A.]

If something can be interpreted in more than one way ,and it is ... then it can’t be clear.

If two people have two different interpretations ,both claiming they have been give by god .... who is right ?
The one that you agree with ?

Quran 49:16

Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah is Knowing of all things?"

I feel bad whenever I come here.. simply because none of us understand although we copy and paste much.

It's a good chapter in general anyway.

 

[chalks75]

Anyone can interpret any text whichever way they see fit to them. What we're commanded to do is to follow the Quran as well as the ways of prophet Muhammad :saws1:. He is the leader of our ummah just as other prophets were the leaders of their people at their respective times. If we look at the actions of certain groups of Muslims and compare that to what our prophet :saws1: did, that speaks for itself. The interrpretation of text is part of learning the religion, but it goes hand in hand with studying the actions of our great prophet :saws1: Interpretation means nothing if it goes against the sunnah.

It really is a simple concept to understand..

I understand that’s the theory
But
It does not work in practice

There are individuals and groups of Muslims , acting in contradictory fashion , both claiming to be real Muslims , both point to an interpretation of the Quran to support their behaviour.

You say they are wrong
They say they are right ....

Who judges ?

 

[chalks75]

Quran 49:16

Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah is Knowing of all things?"

I feel bad whenever I come here.. simply because none of us understand although we copy and paste much.

It's a good chapter in general anyway.

It’s not possible to know all things , it contradicts logic.

 

['Abdullah]

If something can be interpreted in more than one way ,and it is ... then it can’t be clear.

If two people have two different interpretations ,both claiming they have been give by god .... who is right ?
The one that you agree with ?

The fundamental beliefs such as believe in one God, believe in all prophets, believe in the unseen including angels, praying 5 times, offering zakah (charity), performing pilgrimage, fasting in the month of Ramadan are very clear and could not be interpreted in any different ways. Things which can be interpreted in different ways are very few and have no major impact on the foundation of Islam. Why there are somethings left for interpretation? It is to provide ease and flexibility to the believers. Islam is not rigid and extreme, it also provide a middle path and in some cases several ways to do one thing.

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If you can pin point an issue which we disagree upon then we can look into that issue in reference to Quran and hadith. Whoever is going against these sources does not follow Quran and hadith.

Regarding Shia and Sunni rifts, don't get into this too much. Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his companions used to call themselves Muslims not sunni or shia. Both groups are there to use religion to get power as it has been the case throughout human history. Stick to Quran and teaching of prophet Muhammad PBUH.
If you are referring to ISIS and Alqaida, there are many opinions about them. Many says they are groups created by people who hate Islam to do the acts which they do to give a bad image of Islam. This may be true and may not be. We also know that Quran allows to have war against oppression and self-defense, and some hypocrites use such verses and political stories to gather innocent Muslims to join groups like ISIS and Alqaida. In either case, vast majority of Muslims don't support ISIS and Alqaida. Because even in war against oppression, there are rules which Muslims need to follow. Some of these rules are:

1. Don't start war without warning (Suicidal attacks are not approved by any Islamic scholar on this ground)
2. Don't kill women and children.
3. Don't kill old people.
4. Don't destroy natural resources such as trees and supply of food and water ( no economical sanctions in other words)
5. Don't kill people who surrender.
6. Don't kill people in places of worship.
7.Dont kill animals etc.........

You can see these are rules for war against self-defense and oppression in Islam. How can ISIS and other extreme group claim that the terrorist acts which they are doing are correct interpretation of Islam.
Islam is a religion which agrees with our nature. What will your nature like? The rules I laid out above or the rules which ISIS interpret are Islamic law? I don't think anyone need more than a second to see who is right and who is wrong in this case.

 

[Ahmed.]

It’s not clear to all if it’s 90%
And since Muslims make up a small fraction of people on the planet ,then it’s not chart to most people .
Since Islam is only 1400 years old ( I apologise if that’s wrong) then it wasn’t clear to the billions of people that lived prior to the invention of the religion.

Well you cannot expect every person on earth to be good and sincere at heart, this is the only reason a minority of Muslims are astray as they deviated from the proper path

Most of the people on earth are evil I'm afraid this is why they reject Islam and are desbelievers

Islam started with the first man on earth Adam (as) so there's always been believers on earth and sometimes these believers have totally decimated due to the passing of Prophets and evil people distorting scriptures however Allah has always renewed the true religion, with the latest and final version being Islam.

 

[M.I.A.]

It’s not possible to know all things , it contradicts logic.

I agree, for a human it is impossible to know everything..

But at the same time you actually do have an answer for everything. T_T

It's only natural.

 

[chalks75]

Well you cannot expect every person on earth to be good and sincere at heart, this is the only reason a minority of Muslims are astray as they deviated from the proper path

Most of the people on earth are evil I'm afraid this is why they reject Islam and are desbelievers

Islam started with the first man on earth Adam (as) so there's always been believers on earth and sometimes these believers have totally decimated due to the passing of Prophets and evil people distorting scriptures however Allah has always renewed the true religion, with the latest and final version being Islam.

Most of the people on earth are evil ?
That is absurd , if that’s the kind of thing your religion leads you to believe , it makes me so glad that I’m not religious.

When you say they are evil , what you mean is they are evil in your opinion.
Your opinion is informed through the lens of your religion.

If Adam was the first person on earth , how could he have been a Muslim ?

( btw, the story of creation in the bible is not a factual account , it’s a mythological tale )

 

[chalks75]

I agree, for a human it is impossible to know everything..

But at the same time you actually do have an answer for everything. T_T

It's only natural.

I don’t have an answer for everything.
There are many things I don’t know , and probably never know.

For instance ,
I do not know how the universe came to be.
I do not know how life began .
Ido not know what happens people after they die.

I do understand you have certain religious beliefs around these subjects.
You have your religious beliefs, as the Jews have theirs, the Christians have theirs, the Buddhists and Hindus have theirs, the Egyptians, the Norse, the Mayan’s , Incas , aztecs, all had beliefs about the universe and life .

They didn’t know , I don’t know , you don’t know.

You believe , you don’t know

 

[chalks75]

The fundamental beliefs such as believe in one God, believe in all prophets, believe in the unseen including angels, praying 5 times, offering zakah (charity), performing pilgrimage, fasting in the month of Ramadan are very clear and could not be interpreted in any different ways. Things which can be interpreted in different ways are very few and have no major impact on the foundation of Islam. Why there are somethings left for interpretation? It is to provide ease and flexibility to the believers. Islam is not rigid and extreme, it also provide a middle path and in some cases several ways to do one thing.

- - - Updated - - -

If you can pin point an issue which we disagree upon then we can look into that issue in reference to Quran and hadith. Whoever is going against these sources does not follow Quran and hadith.

Regarding Shia and Sunni rifts, don't get into this too much. Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his companions used to call themselves Muslims not sunni or shia. Both groups are there to use religion to get power as it has been the case throughout human history. Stick to Quran and teaching of prophet Muhammad PBUH.
If you are referring to ISIS and Alqaida, there are many opinions about them. Many says they are groups created by people who hate Islam to do the acts which they do to give a bad image of Islam. This may be true and may not be. We also know that Quran allows to have war against oppression and self-defense, and some hypocrites use such verses and political stories to gather innocent Muslims to join groups like ISIS and Alqaida. In either case, vast majority of Muslims don't support ISIS and Alqaida. Because even in war against oppression, there are rules which Muslims need to follow. Some of these rules are:

1. Don't start war without warning (Suicidal attacks are not approved by any Islamic scholar on this ground)
2. Don't kill women and children.
3. Don't kill old people.
4. Don't destroy natural resources such as trees and supply of food and water ( no economical sanctions in other words)
5. Don't kill people who surrender.
6. Don't kill people in places of worship.
7.Dont kill animals etc.........

You can see these are rules for war against self-defense and oppression in Islam. How can ISIS and other extreme group claim that the terrorist acts which they are doing are correct interpretation of Islam.
Islam is a religion which agrees with our nature. What will your nature like? The rules I laid out above or the rules which ISIS interpret are Islamic law? I don't think anyone need more than a second to see who is right and who is wrong in this case.

Please don’t get me wrong ,
I understand that Muslims that are involved in extremism is a small fraction of the population , but not an insignificant one.

Would you agree that those Muslims do claim to be following the teachings of the Quran, and point to passages within to support their position.

This is the problem with dogmatic beliefs , to hold any belief that logic , evidence ,nor argument can dent or alter is problematic.
I will change my mind ,if you can present evidence compelling enough to compel me.

Would you abandon Islamic beliefs in the face of contrary evidence ?

I’ve asked this same question to some Christians , some said ....” no matter what evidence was presented , they would not change their minds”
This is such a strange position to hold , I understand people place great importance on their religion .... but when all is said and done , it’s just some things you believe are true.

 

[M.I.A.]

I don’t have an answer for everything.
There are many things I don’t know , and probably never know.

For instance ,
I do not know how the universe came to be.
I do not know how life began .
Ido not know what happens people after they die.

I do understand you have certain religious beliefs around these subjects.
You have your religious beliefs, as the Jews have theirs, the Christians have theirs, the Buddhists and Hindus have theirs, the Egyptians, the Norse, the Mayan’s , Incas , aztecs, all had beliefs about the universe and life .

They didn’t know , I don’t know , you don’t know.

You believe , you don’t know

Ok but.. if you did ask those questions today, where would you draw your understanding from? I would suppose the concept of creation is as important as the actual creation of things.

All of those civilisations or religions you mention do actually believe in something guiding progress rather than them simply existing for the sake of it...

It's the philosophy of existence and its continued existence.

I'm no historian but if you google those civilisations, religions and peoples you mentioned..the concept of creation usually bares many similarities between them.

Science, which today is a driving factor in understanding the universe.. and in putting forward it's best interpretation of events..

Has given much the same answer as NEARLY all those you mentioned.

But without the philosophical and ideological bias of a guided creation.

But it still bares many similarities to other creation "myths" which is ironic I suppose.


Its neither a here nor there answer, but science is a belief system based on fact.. although its progress has gone from philosophical to pragmatic and a fair few strange things in between.

To me personally, the belief I have in the answers to those questions you asked is not the same as having to know the truth of those questions you asked.

The philosophy and concept of driven creation and progress influences the way I live my life today..

Which will hopefully try and keep you on topic..

Religion is what you make it and what it makes of you.

Everything is open to interpretation and sometimes it's not even what you say that matters but rather how you say it..

The explanation of subject matter and intent of action behind it are not something that should be lost on us.. like some sort of hidden message.

But that's how the world works to some extent...

I mean just take count if how many times a person hears "I believe" during day to day activities..

Simply so your current thought and response process can be re evaluated.

 

[Ahmed.]

Most of the people on earth are evil ?
That is absurd , if that’s the kind of thing your religion leads you to believe , it makes me so glad that I’m not religious.

When you say they are evil , what you mean is they are evil in your opinion.
Your opinion is informed through the lens of your religion.

If Adam was the first person on earth , how could he have been a Muslim ?

( btw, the story of creation in the bible is not a factual account , it’s a mythological tale )

Adam (as) was Muslim because Muslim means one who submits to Allah. From his time Allah revealed religions to all communities on earth, the beliefs were always the same but the provisions of works differed. Christianity and Judaism have been distorted by man, this is why their beliefs doesn't match Islam.

There is ofcourse those people on earth who havnt been received by the Islamic invitation to convert so apart from those people (who could number in the millions) the rest are bad* as they have rejected Gods religion

God Himself says in the Quran that most people on earth (who are desbelievers) will lead us to a wicked path:

Quranic verses like "If you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from the path of Allah" (Quran, 6:116) do not refer to those who follow traditional Islamic scholarship (who have never been a majority of those on earth), but rather the non-Muslim majority of mankind.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm

* However as to the peoples inner state, we reserve judgement as only God judges the heart and we just judge the apparent

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Most of the people on earth are evil ?
That is absurd , if that’s the kind of thing your religion leads you to believe , it makes me so glad that I’m not religious.

When you say they are evil , what you mean is they are evil in your opinion.
Your opinion is informed through the lens of your religion.

Words like evil and wicked are meant in a religious sense so don't get alarmed as I'm not saying non-Muslims are serial killers and child kidnappers. In the secular sense 'evil' just means those who are on path to hell

 

[Physicist]

There is a simple indicator.
All violent types are fanatics.
Fanaticism means blind following leaders or ideas. And this contradicts the core of Islam, Shahada.

LailaahaillAllah - nobody or nothing to be worshipped other than Allah.
Neither people, neither jinns (ideas), nothing in the universe. Only God to be worshipped.


Shia do worship teachers.
Wahhabi, while being strictly against worshipping people, are worshipping Qur'an and prone to worship ideas.

While Islam, by design, encourages maturity and responsibility, there are always infantile youngsters eager to join any group which would promise them feeling of significance, be it a football team, nazi movement or a religious sect.

 

[chalks75]

Adam (as) was Muslim because Muslim means one who submits to Allah. From his time Allah revealed religions to all communities on earth, the beliefs were always the same but the provisions of works differed. Christianity and Judaism have been distorted by man, this is why their beliefs doesn't match Islam.

There is ofcourse those people on earth who havnt been received by the Islamic invitation to convert so apart from those people (who could number in the millions) the rest are bad* as they have rejected Gods religion

God Himself says in the Quran that most people on earth (who are desbelievers) will lead us to a wicked path:

Quranic verses like "If you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from the path of Allah" (Quran, 6:116) do not refer to those who follow traditional Islamic scholarship (who have never been a majority of those on earth), but rather the non-Muslim majority of mankind.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm

* However as to the peoples inner state, we reserve judgement as only God judges the heart and we just judge the apparent

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Words like evil and wicked are meant in a religious sense so don't get alarmed as I'm not saying non-Muslims are serial killers and child kidnappers. In the secular sense 'evil' just means those who are on path to hell

In the secular sense ... hell does not exist.
Evil , to me , means a person who cause intentional harm to another person , for political or financial reasons , or for no discernible reason.

I do not believe heaven or hell exist , these are just concepts people invented.
Hell does not exist in the Jewish religion , Christians invented it , and it was adopted by Islam

 

[chalks75]

There is a simple indicator.
All violent types are fanatics.
Fanaticism means blind following leaders or ideas. And this contradicts the core of Islam, Shahada.

LailaahaillAllah - nobody or nothing to be worshipped other than Allah.
Neither people, neither jinns (ideas), nothing in the universe. Only God to be worshipped.


Shia do worship teachers.
Wahhabi, while being strictly against worshipping people, are worshipping Qur'an and prone to worship ideas.

While Islam, by design, encourages maturity and responsibility, there are always infantile youngsters eager to join any group which would promise them feeling of significance, be it a football team, nazi movement or a religious sect.

Islam itself is a religious sect.

It seems we have strayed off the topic ,
But you have confirmed that the Quran is open to interpretation, and people use their interpretations to further their own selfish needs or desires ,
In that sense , it’s very much like the Christian bible.

 

[chalks75]

Adam (as) was Muslim because Muslim means one who submits to Allah. From his time Allah revealed religions to all communities on earth, the beliefs were always the same but the provisions of works differed. Christianity and Judaism have been distorted by man, this is why their beliefs doesn't match Islam.

There is ofcourse those people on earth who havnt been received by the Islamic invitation to convert so apart from those people (who could number in the millions) the rest are bad* as they have rejected Gods religion

God Himself says in the Quran that most people on earth (who are desbelievers) will lead us to a wicked path:

Quranic verses like "If you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from the path of Allah" (Quran, 6:116) do not refer to those who follow traditional Islamic scholarship (who have never been a majority of those on earth), but rather the non-Muslim majority of mankind.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm

* However as to the peoples inner state, we reserve judgement as only God judges the heart and we just judge the apparent

- - - Updated - - -



Words like evil and wicked are meant in a religious sense so don't get alarmed as I'm not saying non-Muslims are serial killers and child kidnappers. In the secular sense 'evil' just means those who are on path to hell

When you talk about Adam ,
Are you taking about Adam and Eve , the garden of Eden , the talking snake etc

I’m hoping you are not .

 

[Ahmed.]

In the secular sense ... hell does not exist.
Evil , to me , means a person who cause intentional harm to another person , for political or financial reasons , or for no discernible reason.

I do not believe heaven or hell exist , these are just concepts people invented.
Hell does not exist in the Jewish religion , Christians invented it , and it was adopted by Islam

What I meant was, in the secular sense a person will be described as 'evil' if he is a serial killer, peodophile etc but the religious 'evil' would mean those going to hell, so good ole Mr humanitarian leftie who rejects Islam will fit that description

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When you talk about Adam ,
Are you taking about Adam and Eve , the garden of Eden , the talking snake etc

I’m hoping you are not .

Yes I am and dna evidence has proven this; it has proven all of humanity have a common father:

https://www.livescience.com/38613-genetic-adam-and-eve-uncovered.html

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD]Live Science
Both men and women can trace their origins to a man and a woman who lived about 135,000 years ago....[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

['Abdullah]

Please don’t get me wrong ,

This is the problem with dogmatic beliefs , to hold any belief that logic , evidence ,nor argument can dent or alter is problematic.
I will change my mind ,if you can present evidence compelling enough to compel me.

Would you abandon Islamic beliefs in the face of contrary evidence ?

I’ve asked this same question to some Christians , some said ....” no matter what evidence was presented , they would not change their minds”
This is such a strange position to hold , I understand people place great importance on their religion .... but when all is said and done , it’s just some things you believe are true.

As far as Quran goes, can you point out any issue which you have with Quran's teachings? Give me some examples and we will see if it is your misunderstanding of the text or Quran's teachings are outdated?
Second source of Islam is Hadith and there is a reason why Hadith and Quran are two separate sources. Quran is Divine message, Hadith is written down by Muslims over several centuries. There are several categories of hadith depending on chain of narrations and only hadith which Muslims accept are those which have an authentic chain and does not go against the teachings of Quran. It is a complex subject and we can discuss this later if needed me. For now lets focus on Quran.

 

[chalks75]

As far as Quran goes, can you point out any issue which you have with Quran's teachings? Give me some examples and we will see if it is your misunderstanding of the text or Quran's teachings are outdated?
Second source of Islam is Hadith and there is a reason why Hadith and Quran are two separate sources. Quran is Divine message, Hadith is written down by Muslims over several centuries. There are several categories of hadith depending on chain of narrations and only hadith which Muslims accept are those which have an authentic chain and does not go against the teachings of Quran. It is a complex subject and we can discuss this later if needed me. For now lets focus on Quran.

So you follow the Quran and hadiths

So your religion is partly man made

 

['Abdullah]

So you follow the Quran and hadiths

So your religion is partly man made

I want to laugh but it will be disrespectful for someone who does not know how hadiths are compiled. Sorry I had to find a way to convey my emotions in the text form.
Search what chain of narration means and how hadiths are compiled.