Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
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Trumble
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It doesn't say it, to my knowledge. There would be no reason for it to; why would it describe a concept perfectly familiar to its readers as an alternative to one not in common use until centuries later? Grace Seeker is quite correct regarding the concept associated with 'person' at that time, and you'll find it in used that way as the principal meaning in English literature right up to the 17th century by some authors, particularly when they were familiar with Latin and Greek. It's still with us, in legal terminology if nowhere else.
The nearest you will find to the English 'person' in either Latin or Greek is the Latin persona. That has two meanings, the first being a (literal) mask usually in the context of being worn by an actor, and the second is a character, part or function which an individual represents. The latter is not just used in a theatrical sense but also to describe a role, position or character undertaken by an individual in other contexts, particularly in politics and law.
One definition (Lewis/Short) is
which is rather interesting in the context of the Trinity, I think. Nobody said Al Pacino was three people because he could play many roles
Trumble
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Not even Al has that status, except maybe in the acting profession!
Being a trifle flippant even "never three at the same time" is only a matter of perspective. What if he was filming a movie and two TV shows over the same period? Or what if you were watching 'The Godfather' on TV, while your next door neighbour was watching 'Donnie Brasco' on DVD and your brother was watching him live on stage? Is that not three roles at the same time? He could only film/play one at a time from his own perspective, of course - but that is hardly a limitation God suffers from.
The point is that according to the concept of 'personhood' in use at the time, and to a limited extent still in use, playing three 'roles' at the same time is quite easy. To take a modern day example, a company lawyer or director can quite easily adopt multiple personas at the same time, in acting for (and, importantly as) multiple companies. All that is needed is authority to adopt that persona (another non-existent problem for God). He is still the managing director of company 'A' even if he is currently dealing with the paperwork of company 'B' sitting in his office at company 'C'. In all three cases he is not merely an employee, he is authorised to bear that company's legal person for as long as the Board representing shareholders, or he himself, decides. No, that is not the same situation as the Trinity by any means, but it does illustrate the concept of personhood that is relevant here.
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so god of trinity is like an actor but the actor is not quite like him.
oh by the way did not the trinity god, perform all three parts at the same time or like al-pacino taped it all? or left the world unattended while he was being murdered to pay for Adam's fruit eating habit?
would still like to see al-pacino do a live show on T.V, while at the same time being on stage
oh by the way did not the trinity god, perform all three parts at the same time or like al-pacino taped it all? or left the world unattended while he was being murdered to pay for Adam's fruit eating habit?
would still like to see al-pacino do a live show on T.V, while at the same time being on stage
Talha777
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17th century English literature?! I'm sorry, but I clearly asked Grace Seeker and all other Christians to show me from the Bible and only the Bible that the persons mentioned in the "Trinity" are not individuals but one and the same. This includes all parts of the trinity. Explain it to me like I'm a four year old.
Also, I have referenced some very important verses from the Bible which no Christian has yet addressed, which clearly show that the concept of trinity held by mainstream christians today is completely foreign to the concept propogated by Paul and the other authors of the New Testament. We are still awaiting an explanation as to why Jesus said he has a different will from his "Father", why Jesus said he is inferior to the Holy Spirit and the "father" despite the fact Christians claim they are all one and the same, but just different manifestations of the same God, and why Jesus prayed to the father. Please explain and clarify using proofs directly from the Bible.
There was me believing that there was no concept vof God in budhism. Buddha was silent about the existence or non-existence of God.
who said this?
"It is not my business or yours to find out whether there is God – our business is to remove the sufferings of the world"
As I said before it is too hard for me to keep up with all this new fangled ideas.
Trumble
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I'm not at all sure I could, it isn't an easy idea.
It might help to consider the Qur'an. We are frequently told that the full meaning of the Qur'an can only be understood by those who know Arabic not just because non Arabic readers don't know the words, but because they don't know the concepts associated with them. Here the issue is one of change of historical usage rather than language, but in short there is a concept assumed by the Bible authors that is simply not familiar to most modern day readers.
I wouldn't presume to say that acceptance and understanding of that concept necessarily means acceptance and understanding of the Trinity as a purely monotheistic idea. That is certainly disputed, as this thread shows. All I was really trying to do was confirm Grace Seeker was correct on that particular point, and that sometimes full understanding requires rather greater depth than just reading a translation, or even the original language without some additional work on top. The same is obviously true of the Qur'an.
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Trumble
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I'm not quite sure of your point? To the Buddha the existence of a God(s) or not was a total irrelevance as any such God would be subject to the same laws of cause and effect as everything else. What Buddhism excludes is a creator God. One of the best things about Buddhism - it's a practical religion.
If you referring to my own use of the term, as a Buddhist, I am assuming for the sake of this particular argument that there is one (or more) of them; the ability to assume one point - even one you may not necessarily agree with - in order to discuss another is a pre-requisite in any philosophical forum, otherwise you will never get anywhere. Do you think it might be more constructive in considering the question originally posed if I just posted "why worry, there is no God and there is no Trinity" half a dozen times? :rollseyes
Talha777
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What else does the Bible say about trinity?
JESUS IS NOT ALL-KNOWING!
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father (mark 13:32)
JESUS IS SUBJECT TO THE FATHER
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 corinthians 15:28)
YHWH IS NOT ONLY THE FATHER OF JESUS, HE IS HIS GOD
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (ephesians 1:3)
*see also john 20:17, ephesians 1:17, 1 peter 1:3, revelation 1:6,
JESUS IS NOT ALL-KNOWING!
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father (mark 13:32)
JESUS IS SUBJECT TO THE FATHER
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 corinthians 15:28)
YHWH IS NOT ONLY THE FATHER OF JESUS, HE IS HIS GOD
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (ephesians 1:3)
*see also john 20:17, ephesians 1:17, 1 peter 1:3, revelation 1:6,
Let me quote myself here, as perhaps I have partially answered your question before:
John 1:1 shows both the distinction of persons (Father and Son) and the sameness of their essence, substance, and nature:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The first phrase shows the eternality of the Word---He was already there "in the beginning" (whenever that was and whatever it consists of).
The second phrase shows the distinction of persons---the Word was with God. You have to have at least two to have one with another. Al Pacino does not qualify---he's only one.
The third phrase describes the Word and tells us WHAT He is, not Who He is. He is God in terms of His essence, substance, and nature---Deity. He is not God the Father, with Whom is was. However, He is of the same essence, substance, and nature as God the Father. He is ONE with the Father---ONE essence, substance, and nature, therefore only ONE God---ONE Deity, not two or three or more. Just ONE. Jesus said, "I and my Father are ONE."
So, when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us as the Son (John 1:14), He could pray to His Father, and in His flesh He could get hungry, eat food, get tired and sleep in the boat, etc.---all the things that we humans do all the time, because He took on the likeness of sinful flesh.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
After His resurrection, his followers recognized His Deity, as when Thomas confessed it, and the risen Lord did not correct him or deny what Thomas said:
John 20:26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!''
27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.''
28. And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!''
29. Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.''
All believers down through the centuries since then "have not seen and yet have believed" and we have all been blessed beyond measure because of it.
The Holy Spirit is also God and yet distinct from the Father and the Son.
That He is distinct is shown here:
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,
17. "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
John16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8. "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9. "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10. "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11. "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
That the Holy Spirit is God is shown here:
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession.
2. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
4. "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.''
And yet the Scriptures are clear and consistent that there is ONLY ONE GOD, in both Old and New Testaments. The tri-unity of God is how the distinction of persons and oneness of God are reconciled.
Sorry, I didn't see those verses. I will have to look back at your earlier posts, or you can quote them again, and I will try to respond. Thanks.
Peace
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You know, you are quite impatient. It took me about 3 hours to answer you. Not too long I don't think. You are simply wrong if you think that I have cut and paste response to every question sititng here at my immediate disposal. And I wouldn't use them if I did. I would make sure to read, revise, and write on my own, not merely parroting what someone else had previously said, though I might quote several. That takes time. And it takes time that I cannot allocate to every question. Believe it or not, my day is not one of simply engaging in internet conversations, though sometimes my wife would argue that it is. Now, even what I have provided below just scratches the surface. Is it sufficient? Do you want more? Are you willing to be patient if you do?
First, I and my ilk have already, in fact several times, given verses straight from the Bible which are those that led the early church to struggle with this question of how could God be making himself known in the Father, in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit and yet it still be true that there is one God. Thread after thread has presented many of verses. Do you truly want to see a list of them again? Or are these rhetorical challenges?
Second, the Trinity is dealing with a philosophical conundrum in the early church. Given that there is just one God. And given that Jesus referenced God as the Father(Luke 11:2). And given that Jesus referred to himself and the father as one(John 10:30). And given that Jesus accepted others' worship of himself as God (John 20:28). And given that the Spirit worked in people lives to sanctify them as only God can do(Romans 15:16). And given that God actually lives in us by his Spirit(Ephesians 2:22). The early church had to resolve this basic philosophical conflict that had on the one hand just one being who was God and on the other hand an experience of God in these three persona. Thus the doctrine of the Trinity moved from an experience of the one God found in three persons that is recorded in scripture to a philosophical explanation of that experience recorded in the Bible. And that is reality is what makes your argument against philosophical explanations of the Trinity specious and why it is completely irrelevant that the word Trinity is never found in the Bible. The Bible records God making himself known to us in these three persons and that is all we need to show. If you don't accept the proof when it is plainly shown to you, that is your problem, not ours.
You won't find the formulation of the Trinity in the Bible. The Trinity is not revelation. The Trinity is interpretation of revelation. Is Shari'a law found in the Qur'an. I recently did a search for Shari'a in the Qur'an and according to the search engine I used, it isn't mentioned in the Qur'an. Does this make it invalid? No. Shari'a expresses what one finds in the Qur'an even if the word itself is never used there. Likewise with Trinity.
No, I am not limiting God to three manifestions. First God did make himself know in the burning bush, etc. These are called Theophanies. That are examples of one of the manifestations or personas of God making himself known to us breaking into human history. Second, we have experienced no other manifestations of other personas of God than these three, so this is what we know and write of. Is it possible that God might yet make himself known in another way? I suppose. I am not going to limit God. But I also am not going to speak as true of God that which I don't know to be true. Thus the Old Testament at speaks primarily about the manifestions of God as Father (and arguably in an undeveloped manner, Spirit) for that was all that they knew. So, my experience of what is true of God is his three-fold persona, and that is what I can then speak of.
Hebrews 1:8 (despite Woodrow's and vpb's protestations) has God speaking about the Son and God calls the Son "God".
Revelation 1:8 has Jesus speaking and identifying himself to John as "the Lord God" and "the Almighty".
Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus was of the same nature (i.e. essence)
Ephesians 4:6 Paul tells us that it is God the Father who is "in all ".
In Galatians 2:20 Paul says that it is Christ who lives "in me".
Yet in Romans 8:9-11 Paul says that it is the Spirit who lives "in you." And further this is the equivalence of saying that "Christ is in you".
Hebrews 11:26 says that when Moses decided to quit living as an Egyptian and to live instead among "the people of God" that he did so "for the sake of Christ" though it would be more than a millenia before Jesus would be born.
And after all of this Paul says that there is just "one God" Ephesians 4:6. There you have exactly what you requested, Paul saying that we worship one God.
Philippians 2 tells us that in his time on earth, Jesus did not seek to grasp equality with God -- that is why he came to earth in human form, he could have stayed in heaven-- but that even in doing this he was still of the same nature as God. What you are confused by is the fact that Jesus had two natures, a human nature and a divine nature so that he was at all times both 100% God and 100% man. These two natures co-mingled with one another but were never confused into one nature -- though admittedly it can leave us scratching our head in a bit of confusion. So it is that the earthly Jesus having surrendered neither his divine essense nor his divine persona, but only his divine perogatives to power and knowledge and came to earth and lived among us as a human being. In being fully human he knew only that which the Father revealed to him and had only power to do that which other humans could do, but that did not abrogate the reality of his divine nature that was also present in him. And so, as to his earthly existence the Father was indeed "greater" (John 14:28) and the words he would share with his disciples were not his own but those of the Father (John 14:24), yet in the very same discourse Jesus would say that anyone who had seen him had seen the Father (John 14:9). Given these two natures it also makes sense for Jesus, even though Jesus is himself God, to pray to the Father. Indeed it would make sense for the Father, the Son, and the Spirit to always be in communication with one another in the very essence of their unity as one being. Jesus goes so far as saying that in providing the Holy Spirit to be a divine presence in our lives, we human beings are even admitted into this relationship. Not surprising since it was because of the presence of the Holy Spirit as a divine source of power in his life (not his own power, remember he emptied himself of that in coming to earth) that Jesus did any of the miracles which are attested to him; thus Jesus says that with this same divine presence in our lives we shall do all that we have seen him do and even greater things (John 14:12) -- again not in our own power, but in the power of God.
It also makes sense for Jesus to have his own unique will. As his own person he would be responsible for his own decisions. It is indeed an important theological point that Jesus had free will to do whatever he wanted as a human being. He was not some automaton programmed by God the Father. He had to face the choice to sin or submit the same way that each of us do, or his offering of himself on the cross could not be a perfect sacrifice. But he always choose to conform his will to that of the Father. However, you are wrong that Christ did not go willingly to the cross. John 10:17-18 makes it clear that Jesus did what he did "of my own accord". On the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9) Jesus spoke about his departure with Moses and Elijah, which was to come to fulfillment in Jerusalem, and then we are told as that time approach that he "resolutely set out for Jerusalem (Luke 9:51). So, while Jesus prayed that if there was another way that this would be done, he nonetheless choose to conform his will to the Father's will in order to bring about reconcilation between God and humanity.
Your idea that Matthew 12:32 show Jesus as inferior to the Holy Spirit completely misses the mark as to what that passage is all about and isn't related to the Trinity at all. Another concept important to Christianity is that humans are so steeped in our sins that we cannot on our own even recognize the need to be cleansed of them. And just look at much of the world, it is oblivious to the reality of sin. One of the things that the God does in our lives in the person of the Holy Spirit is to awakenness to our need for God in our lives. Without that awakening, we would simply continue to live blissfully ignorant lives with regard to God's will for us. So, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. But some people choose instead to ignore that convicting action, that prompting action of God. They consider all spiritual things as mere foolishness, and thus are condemned by that very attitude toward God, to never avail themselves of God's offer of mercy. It is possible to turn your back on Jesus today, and tomorrow accept him. He never turns his back on you. Now, blasphemy is not a word that one utters, but an attitude present in the heart. So turning your back on Jesus can be forgiven, but turning your back on the Holy Spirit...? If you refuse to even recognize the Holy Spirit, given that God will not force himself on you, given that we always have free choice, then there is little that can be done to save you. Some people turn and walk away from God, and they do so to their own ****ation.
I am sorry, but the inferences you have drawn are not the teachings of the Bible. They come from your own mind or ideas passed on to you by someone else. My prayer is that you are not yourself turning your back on the promptings of the Holy Spirit to make himself known to you.
Maybe not today, but some day:
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I believe that it would be helpful if you could quote a few key verses in the gospels where Jesus (pbuh) clearly establishes this Trinity concept himself. Muslims accept the authentic words of Jesus, but Biblical authenticity can't be proven because they recognize the influence of man on the actual texts of the gospels. BTW Muslims flat out reject anything that Paul wrote because he was not one of Jesus' (pbuh) disciples while he lived on earth.
Keltoi
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Well, with all due respect of course, the fact that Muslims reject Paul's words doesn't mean Christians do. Paul wrote many important works. I believe if you look at Grace Seeker's last post, he supplies quite a few verses where Christ speaks of His relationship with God and the relationship of the Holy Spirit to all.
Yes, GraceSeeker did, as usual, expend a large amount of energy to accurately portray the Christian perspective.
However, what would be nice is a single concise paragraph whereby one uses quotes by Jesus (pbuh) from the gospels to clearly demonstrate the concept of Trinity so that a 12 year old could understand and comprehend the concept.
Keltoi
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Sometimes explanations take more than one paragraph, and sometimes you have to have more experience and intelligence than a twelve year old to fully understand concepts. Grace Seeker's post was very well written and at least to me did a good job of answering the question.
The concept of God is central to both Islam and Christiainity. The Islamic concept of Allah can be concisely presented by the few verses of Surah Ikhlas (Purity of Faith) and Ayat Al-Kursi (The Throne) Surah 2:255. I believe most 12 year olds can grasp this concept of God.
Why is it so difficulty for Christians to convey their concept of God concisely with a few verses from the gospels using quotes from Jesus (pbuh)?
Perhaps, GraceSeeker could humor me with a short reply.
Talha777
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Phil12123 said:
Essence or substance is nowhere mentioned in John 1:1. Neither can it be clearly discerned that the Word is the same God. As far as I am concerned, two separate gods are mentioned in this verse, the Word that is subject to God (with God), and the Word that is God. Basically, the author believes there are two separate gods, but one of them (the word) is inferior to the other.
I'm not disputing that the author of Philippians doesn't consider Jesus to be God. but even from these verses, there is no evidence whatsoever that the "son" is the same essence as the "Father". Rather, this passage clearly shows Christians have two distinct deities. Read philippians 2:9 carefully. "therefore god also has highly exalted him" if it is the same god, than it would be, god has highly exalted himself It shows that the "Father" is superior to the "Son", and that one god has exalted another god, but they are still separate gods. similarly verse 11 of the same chapter shows the exact same thing.
I will not address the other verses which you have mentioned, because my challenge was very clear: prove to me from the bible that jesus is the same essence as his father and the holy spirit as well that they are one and the same god, not separate and distinct gods.
i will, however, show you that the authors of the new testament believed in separate distinct gods, one the regarded as a father who begot another god, that is entirely distinct and has an entirely different mind and will from the first god. read the following passage carefully:
What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he? "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." (matthew 22:42-44)
This clearly shows that the NT believes in two separate gods, and that these two separate gods even communicate with eachother, both of them are "lords", one of them has promised to make retributions against the enemies of the other god.
furthermore, if there is one god, no matter what how many separate and distinct "manifestations" he has, they will all possess the same divine qualites such as omnicience. however, as the New Testament clearly shows, "god the son" is not all knowing, and therefore is an inferior and separate god from "the father" who is omnicient: No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father (mark 13:32)
and finally, even if god has three manifestations and one of them is Jesus, than one manifestation cannot be regarded as the god of the other. if this is the case, than it clearly shows that jesus is a separate god from his father: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (ephesians 1:3)
Talha777
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GraceSeeker said:
Yes, I was waiting for you to post this verse, as it is your only viable argument you have. all the other verses do not address my challenge, which is to show me how the "Son" is the same god as the "father" and that they are not distinct gods according to the new testament.
But I am one step ahead of you, since you claim you have made a lifelong study of your bible you should know that in this passage Jesus was speaking metaphorically look at the verses that precede:
The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.' (john 10:33)
here the Jews began to stone Jesus because they mistakenly believed that Jesus had just claimed himself divinity, and claimed to be God. So Jesus clarifies that he was speaking metaphorically: Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods? (john 10:34)
Jesus goes on to explain that because he does the righteous work of god, he fits this metaphorical description of the Old Testament that he is a god. But if you believe literally that Jesus claimed to be god from john 10:30, than you are necessarilly admitting to polytheism.
It makes no difference if the word trinity is mentioned in the Bible or not. I am not concerned with the word, I am concerned with the concept of trinity i would like you to clearly explain to me the concept of trinity from your bible, including the subject of same essence, etc.,
With regard to shariah, it is the word for the laws of Islam, as contained in the Holy Quran and Sunnat. The word is not important, the concept of it is, and you will find the concept is crystal clear, because whatever the Holy Quran commands is shariah.
On the contrary, philippians 2:6 indicates that there are two separate gods, and one of those gods doesn't regard it as robbery to claim a status of parity with the other (despite that one is omnicient and the other is not)
I'm not disputing that the New Testament authors believed Jesus is very, very old and was around at the creation of the earth. However, if the "son" was begotten, than at one point he wasn't there.
Wrong, ephesians 4:6 only says that the "Father" who is a distinct and separate god from the "son" is one. Saying God is one is different from saying there is only one god. Both statements are true, but without the latter one it is still an open possibility that there are many gods, and paul and the other authors of the new testament clearly believed in at least two gods: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (ephesians 1:3)
A direct contradiction with philippians 2:6 which says he does seek equality with god, but contradictions in the bible are a different subject altogether, we will leave that for another day.
You are radically redefining the word "logic". First you say that Jesus did not surrender his divine essence or persona, which includes omnicience, as omnicience is a quality of God, than you say that Jesus did surrender his divinity by suddenly not being all-knowing, and therefore relying on God's revelation. I'm sorry, but that is not 100% divine and 100% human, that is simply 100% human. If he was 100% divine and 100% human he would possess qualities of both human and God, not one or the other.
No it makes no sense at all. If Jesus is the same god as his father but has a different will, than you are point blank accusing God of having multiple personality disorder. that is a grave blasphemy, and you and your christians should repent from such satanic thoughts.