Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Phil12123]

Essence or substance is nowhere mentioned in John 1:1. Neither can it be clearly discerned that the Word is the same God. As far as I am concerned, two separate gods are mentioned in this verse, the Word that is subject to God (with God), and the Word that is God. Basically, the author believes there are two separate gods, but one of them (the word) is inferior to the other.

Wrong. Why don't you let a Christian answer your question by giving you the Christian interpretation of a Christian verse of Scripture? You can tell me how a verse of the Quran should be understood; I won't dispute your understanding of your holy book. Give me the same courtesy concerning how a verse of the Bible should be understood. I don't want to get into a technical dissertation of the Greek, so I'm telling you, in English, what the verse means by what it says. And what I told you is exactly that. Re-read my post, very slowly and carefully, and let it sink in before you shoot off your answer to it. I really can't say anything more than I've said to make it any clearer to you. So, I'm hoping I didn't waste my time in putting that post together. Read it again. And maybe again. Ponder it. Chew on it. Think about it. Then respond. Thanks.

Peace

 

[vpb]

I think inside the bible two concepts contradict each other, bc one side we are told that Jesus is inferior to God, and he prays to God etc...but the other side that he is God??

huh???

 

[Muslim Knight]

I think inside the bible two concepts contradict each other, bc one side we are told that Jesus is inferior to God, and he prays to God etc...but the other side that he is God??

huh???

Wait, there's more.

1 + 1 + 1 = 1

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

1 = 3

3 = 1


I share your pain, brother.

 

[vpb]

Wait, there's more.

1 + 1 + 1 = 1

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

1 = 3

3 = 1


I share your pain, brother.

what a horrible state to die may Allah save us from committing shirk and from hellfire .ameen

 

[MustafaMc]

The concept of God is central to both Islam and Christiainity. The Islamic concept of Allah can be concisely presented by the few verses of Surah Ikhlas (Purity of Faith) and Ayat Al-Kursi (The Throne) Surah 2:255. I believe most 12 year olds can grasp this concept of God.

Why is it so difficulty for Christians to convey their concept of God concisely with a few verses from the gospels using quotes from Jesus (pbuh)?

The following quote is from a post that I made earlier at #40. It logically shows that the three entities are separate and unique, not one and the same.

This is shown in 4 short verses:

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus (Son) when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice (Father) out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

You and Christians can deny what I see, but 1) no one can descend from the Heavens and light upon himself, 2) no one can say to himself this is my son with whom I am pleased, 3) at no time can anyone pray to himself that someone else's will be done instead of his own, and 4) at no time can anyone sit beside himself.

A refutation of this post with a concise counter using the gospels to show how the three are simultaneous manifestations of the One would help communicate the concept of Trinity to Muslims.

 

[Trumble]

Yes, I was waiting for you to post this verse, as it is your only viable argument you have.

But I am one step ahead of you, since you claim you have made a lifelong study of your bible you should know that in this passage Jesus was speaking metaphorically look at the verses that precede:

The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.' (john 10:33)

here the Jews began to stone Jesus because they mistakenly believed that Jesus had just claimed himself divinity, and claimed to be God. So Jesus clarifies that he was speaking metaphorically: Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods? (john 10:34)

Jesus goes on to explain that because he does the righteous work of god, he fits this metaphorical description of the Old Testament that he is a god. But if you believe literally that Jesus claimed to be god from john 10:30, than you are necessarilly admitting to polytheism.

With being so busy being one step ahead, and all, you seem to have forgotten to mention that that interpretation is far from universal.. indeed it is only generally adopted by those with the same agenda as yourself. The alternative perception is that the suggestion that the Jews' belief that Jesus claimed to be God was mistaken is simply not supportable from the text. Jesus does not deny the suggestion; indeed he repeats it - with much the same result!

35. If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36. can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated 16 and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37. If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; 38. but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." 39 (Then) they tried again to arrest him; but he escaped from their power.

Why would Jesus withdraw the claim, or claim a misunderstanding, and then make it again?

The final paragraph of yours which I quoted bears little resemblance to what verses 35-39 actually say, it is an interpretation that derives in turn solely from a particular interpretation of verse 34 which is (arguably) not sustainable by the context.

Wrong, ephesians 4:6 only says that the "Father" who is a distinct and separate god from the "son" is one. Saying God is one is different from saying there is only one god. Both statements are true, but without the latter one it is still an open possibility that there are many gods, and paul and the other authors of the new testament clearly believed in at least two gods: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

This is what Ephesians 4: 4-6 actually says (directly transliterated from Nestle-Aland)

one body and one spirit, as also you were called with one hope of the calling of you; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, the One over all and through all and in all

I don't recognise in there what you claim it says. Do you? Nothing about "who is a distinct and separate god from the 'son'", and that is not suggested by the context. Is it really credible to read those verses as admitting the existence of multiple gods? Sure, if you are picky about the semantics they don't actually exclude that possibility, but the meaning of the verses is clear - that there is only one God. The words 'one' and 'all' are repeated and emphasised several times for a reason.

Your whole case is based around Biblical interpretations that simply are not shared by those whose belief you are disputing; that may well be inconvenient, but it does suggest you are unlikely to make much progress. No doubt those who share your agenda will be quite happy to share 'your' interpretations, but they would be well advised to look a little deeper before making their minds up

 

[Talha777]

Bismillahi Arrahmani Arraheem​

The alternative perception is that the suggestion that the Jews' belief that Jesus claimed to be God was mistaken is simply not supportable from the text. Jesus does not deny the suggestion; indeed he repeats it - with much the same result!
35. If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36. can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated 16 and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37. If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; 38. but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." 39 (Then) they tried again to arrest him; but he escaped from their power.
Why would Jesus withdraw the claim, or claim a misunderstanding, and then make it again?
The final paragraph of yours which I quoted bears little resemblance to what verses 35-39 actually say, it is an interpretation that derives in turn solely from a particular interpretation of verse 34 which is (arguably) not sustainable by the context.

The verse we were discussing was John 10:30, which GraceSeeker tried to use as proof that Jesus is the same god as his father: "I and my father are one". But I showed how he was quoting this verse out of context. The context is that Jesus was claiming to have the father in him, and that he is a god in the same sense that the Old Testament calls the Israelites as "gods". (john 10:34). So if Jesus is god in this sense, than so are the Israelites, which would make christianity a polytheistic religion. This is a direct comparison, you cannot say that Jesus is god in a different sense from the israelites, at least from this passage (john 10:30-34).

Look at ephesians 4:4-6, which you yourself quoted: one body and one spirit, as also you were called with one hope of the calling of you; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, the One over all and through all and in all

According to christianity, god "the father" is in all, and this is how Jesus is claiming to be god, and why he says even the israelites are gods (john 10:34).

Now let us look at some more errors and flaws with the concept of trinity from the New Testament itself:

IS JESUS IMMUTABLE?
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (hebrews 13:8)

BUT JESUS WAS INFERIOR TO ANGELS?!
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (hebrews 2:9)

IF JESUS IS GOD, THAN HE MUST BE OMNICIENT
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. (hebrews 4:13)

...BUT THE BIBLE SAYS HE ISN'T
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (mark 13:32)

JESUS WASN'T ALWAYS THE "SON OF GOD"
So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father (hebrews 5:5)

*Dear christians, these are the verses from your own bible. they completely shatter your religious beliefs into smithereens! You believe that Jesus, whom you claim to be the son of god, is inferior to Angels! (hebrews 2:9) Imagine, Angels, which are the creation of God, have a superior status to Jesus!

 

[Trumble]

But I showed how he was quoting this verse out of context. The context is that Jesus was claiming to have the father in him, and that he is a god in the same sense that the Old Testament calls the Israelites as "gods". (john 10:34).

No, you produced one interpretation of that verse which creates that context. It has no existence outside that interpretation. I noted in my previous post that it is not the only, or indeed the generally accepted, interpretation and suggested that it might not be a sound one.

Look at ephesians 4:4-6, which you yourself quoted: one body and one spirit, as also you were called with one hope of the calling of you; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, the One over all and through all and in all

According to christianity, god "the father" is in all, and this is how Jesus is claiming to be god, and why he says even the israelites are gods (john 10:34).

The "over all and through all and in all" is suitably vague to be interpreted in a variety of ways. I, personally, might even ascribe pantheistic elements to it, but the usual interpretations are that man was created in God's image, and so there is part of him in all of us, all humans are Gods children, God is always there within our hearts, a divine spark in all of us, and so on and so on.

There is no link between the two verses other than the one you created yourself. You can only do that with your chosen interpretation of 10:34-39 and even then there is no direct link; it is a possible reason, no more. You have no idea whether Jesus claimed to be (a) god for that reason, or for some completely different reason - such as actually being one in whatever context you like!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Essence or substance is nowhere mentioned in John 1:1. Neither can it be clearly discerned that the Word is the same God. As far as I am concerned, two separate gods are mentioned in this verse, the Word that is subject to God (with God), and the Word that is God. Basically, the author believes there are two separate gods, but one of them (the word) is inferior to the other.



I'm not disputing that the author of Philippians doesn't consider Jesus to be God. but even from these verses, there is no evidence whatsoever that the "son" is the same essence as the "Father". Rather, this passage clearly shows Christians have two distinct deities. Read philippians 2:9 carefully. "therefore god also has highly exalted him" if it is the same god, than it would be, god has highly exalted himself It shows that the "Father" is superior to the "Son", and that one god has exalted another god, but they are still separate gods. similarly verse 11 of the same chapter shows the exact same thing.

I will not address the other verses which you have mentioned, because my challenge was very clear: prove to me from the bible that jesus is the same essence as his father and the holy spirit as well that they are one and the same god, not separate and distinct gods.

i will, however, show you that the authors of the new testament believed in separate distinct gods, one the regarded as a father who begot another god, that is entirely distinct and has an entirely different mind and will from the first god. read the following passage carefully:

What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he? "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." (matthew 22:42-44)

This clearly shows that the NT believes in two separate gods, and that these two separate gods even communicate with eachother, both of them are "lords", one of them has promised to make retributions against the enemies of the other god.

furthermore, if there is one god, no matter what how many separate and distinct "manifestations" he has, they will all possess the same divine qualites such as omnicience. however, as the New Testament clearly shows, "god the son" is not all knowing, and therefore is an inferior and separate god from "the father" who is omnicient: No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father (mark 13:32)

and finally, even if god has three manifestations and one of them is Jesus, than one manifestation cannot be regarded as the god of the other. if this is the case, than it clearly shows that jesus is a separate god from his father: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (ephesians 1:3)

The problem with your refutation is that it actually makes our point. The writers of the New Testament did indeed worship more than one person. That seems to be your point. But your claim is this is proof that they worship more than one God. Now prove to me from the text that these multiple persons are also different beings. The New Testament goes on to reassert the Old Testament concept that there is just one God (James 2:19, Romans 3:30, et. al.), even while at the same time we see there to be more than one person who is understood to be God (your above point). So, if there are multiple people worshipped as God and yet only one God, aside from simple disregarding the Bible as corrupted how do you explain this? How, based on the Bible, can you have more than one person worshipped as God -- the Father, Jesus (a.k.a. the Son), and the Spirit all worshipped individually (these verses have been previously given in this thread) -- and yet still say that there is only one God? And remember, your standard is that the proof must come from the text not philosophy or logic.

 

[Talha777]

The problem with your refutation is that it actually makes our point. The writers of the New Testament did indeed worship more than one person. That seems to be your point. But your claim is this is proof that they worship more than one God. Now prove to me from the text that these multiple persons are also different beings. The New Testament goes on to reassert the Old Testament concept that there is just one God (James 2:19, Romans 3:30, et. al.), even while at the same time we see there to be more than one person who is understood to be God (your above point). So, if there are multiple people worshipped as God and yet only one God, aside from simple disregarding the Bible as corrupted how do you explain this? How, based on the Bible, can you have more than one person worshipped as God -- the Father, Jesus (a.k.a. the Son), and the Spirit all worshipped individually (these verses have been previously given in this thread) -- and yet still say that there is only one God? And remember, your standard is that the proof must come from the text not philosophy or logic.

The orthodox Christian position is that there is one God, but three different persons within it. This is why I quoted: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (ephesians 1:3)

you did not even attempt to address this verse from your bible which says the father is the god of the son.

here are additional verses which prove that Jesus himself has a god. this cannot be if there is only one god. so if jesus is god, logically he must be a separate and distinct god from the father:

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (john 20:17)

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. (ephesians 1:17)

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. (revelation 1:6)

since when does god worship another god? and you say they are different persons within one god?

 

[Grace Seeker]

[The verse we were discussing was John 10:30, which GraceSeeker tried to use as proof that Jesus is the same god as his father: "I and my father are one". But I showed how he was quoting this verse out of context. The context is that Jesus was claiming to have the father in him, and that he is a god in the same sense that the Old Testament calls the Israelites as "gods". (john 10:34). So if Jesus is god in this sense, than so are the Israelites, which would make christianity a polytheistic religion. This is a direct comparison, you cannot say that Jesus is god in a different sense from the israelites, at least from this passage (john 10:30-34).

I disagree that you have shown that I took it out of context. What I see is you inventing your own context and then mis-applying it. When Jesus quotes David, he is showing the pharisees that their own scriptures foretold of this person who would be a son of David and also the divine Son of God. So, he is re-asserting that they are right in saying that he is claiming to be God, and he is asking them to accept the possibility that instead of being blasphemous (because in their mind no mere man should claim to be God), that it might in fact be true. And then he cites the events of his ministry to substantiate his claim that it is indeed true, for no mere man could do what he has done, they could only be done through the power of God.

In language a 12-year old could understand, as this has been requested, if we really understand what Jesus is saying here, Jesus is saying, "Yes, I am saying that I am God. You want to stone me because you think that a mere human should not say such a thing. But that is because you assume my claim is false. Consider the other possibility, it could also be true. Look at what you see me do, and then you will know the truth. I actually am who I say I am."

 

[Grace Seeker]

The orthodox Christian position is that there is one God, but three different persons within it. This is why I quoted: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (ephesians 1:3)

you did not even attempt to address this verse from your bible which says the father is the god of the son.

here are additional verses which prove that Jesus himself has a god. this cannot be if there is only one god. so if jesus is god, logically he must be a separate and distinct god from the father:

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (john 20:17)

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. (ephesians 1:17)

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. (revelation 1:6)

since when does god worship another god? and you say they are different persons within one god?

Duh. If there are three persons, and each is God, then yes the Father will God to the Son and the Spirit. Likewise the Son will be God to the Father and the Spirit. And the Spirit will be God to the Son and the Father. And indeed we see this very thing in scripture. But again, I can tell just by the way you write that you are not thinking of just three separate pesonas, but of three separate beings. Prove to me, from scripture that there are not just three separate persons, but three separate beings.

Most 12 year olds are able to get this from the simple analogy of a triangle, or the three forms of water. Why are you struggling so much to understand what we mean by it? You keep wanting me to prove something from the Bible in regard to it, that we don't even assert to be true when we speak of the Trinity. I don't think your problem is that you are denser than a 12-year old. It may be just the opposite, you are too smart for your own good, and are trying to make something different out of the concept of the Trinity than it really is.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The following quote is from a post that I made earlier at #40. It logically shows that the three entities are separate and unique, not one and the same.



A refutation of this post with a concise counter using the gospels to show how the three are simultaneous manifestations of the One would help communicate the concept of Trinity to Muslims.

Not a refutation at all. This is why we say three persons. There indeed are three distinct persons. But you have only shown one side of the coin. And we would be polytheists were it not for the reaffirmation in scripture that despite this recognition of three different persons who are God that there is still just one God. The doctrine of the Trinity simply is to explain how both can be true at the same time. Obviously, it is not a very good explanation in your mind.

 

[Phil12123]

BUT JESUS WAS INFERIOR TO ANGELS?!
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (hebrews 2:9)

Dear christians, these are the verses from your own bible. they completely shatter your religious beliefs into smithereens! You believe that Jesus, whom you claim to be the son of god, is inferior to Angels! (hebrews 2:9) Imagine, Angels, which are the creation of God, have a superior status to Jesus!

Wrong. wrong. wrong. Jesus is NOT inferior to Angels. In fact, He is the creator of all the angels, and of everything else.

Why do you take things out of context and think you have shattered anything to smithereens?? I don't know whether to consider it dishonest or just pathetic.

Let's look at Heb. 2:9 in context, which really includes all of chapter one of Hebrews, but for now let's look at chapter two:

Hebrews 2:
1. Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3. how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4. God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
5. For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.
6. But one testified in a certain place, saying: "What is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You take care of him?
7. You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor, and set him over the works of Your hands.
8. You have put all things in subjection under his feet.'' For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
10. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12. saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will sing praise to You.''
13. And again: "I will put My trust in Him.'' And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.''
14. Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15. and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
17. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

First the writer considers Man, which God "made a little lower than the angels" (v. 7). Then he changes the subject and considers Jesus, Who also was "made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." This is talking about the incarnation when "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). This is when Jesus, Who was in the form of God and thought it not robbery to equal with God took on the form of a servant---a human body to be like man, made a little lower than the angels. Why? So He could "taste death for everyone" or as Philippians 2:8 says, be obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And from that "made a little lower than the angels" you have the nerve to conclude that Jesus, the creator of the angels, is "inferior" to the angels!!!

Did you read Chapter 1? The writer clearly distinguishes Jesus from the angels and conclusively establishes that He is better than the angels:

Hebrews 1:
1. God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets.
2. has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
3. who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4. having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5. For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You''? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son''?
6. But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him.''
7. And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.''
8. But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.''
10. And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands;
11. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment;
12. Like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.''
13. But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool''?
14. Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Do you not now see from the above that it is utter folly to state your conclusion, that Jesus is inferior to the angels, creatures that HE created and who are commanded to worship HIM?

Personally, I think we Christians deserve an apology for that irresponsible statement.

Peace

 

[Redeemed]

good, we understand each other.
now you go your way, I go my way ;D

bye

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace :statisfie

Wrong. wrong. wrong. Jesus is NOT inferior to Angels. In fact, He is the creator of all the angels, and of everything else....Personally, I think we Christians deserve an apology for that irresponsible statement.

Peace

did not read the whole posts ..... No offence , pl. but someone posted a verse that says like this --sins against holy Spirit won't never be forgiven.


What's the meaning of this verse ? sins against father & Jesus (p) can be forgiven but not against holy Spirit ? Does not it give a highter status to him than the other 2 dieties ?


I read Bible long ago....so far as i remember now , always father gave orders & Jesus (p) obeyed .........he never gave father any order . I Don't remember now if Holy Spirit gave Jesus (p) any order or not , but the verse mentioned does give him a higher status as sin against him won't be forgiven .

 

[Muslim Woman]

bye

forever :? Or a short break ?


:thankyou:

 

[Talha777]

I disagree that you have shown that I took it out of context. What I see is you inventing your own context and then mis-applying it. When Jesus quotes David, he is showing the pharisees that their own scriptures foretold of this person who would be a son of David and also the divine Son of God. So, he is re-asserting that they are right in saying that he is claiming to be God, and he is asking them to accept the possibility that instead of being blasphemous (because in their mind no mere man should claim to be God), that it might in fact be true. And then he cites the events of his ministry to substantiate his claim that it is indeed true, for no mere man could do what he has done, they could only be done through the power of God.In language a 12-year old could understand, as this has been requested, if we really understand what Jesus is saying here, Jesus is saying, "Yes, I am saying that I am God. You want to stone me because you think that a mere human should not say such a thing. But that is because you assume my claim is false. Consider the other possibility, it could also be true. Look at what you see me do, and then you will know the truth. I actually am who I say I am."

I don't care for your explanation especially since it does not address the verse I quoted: `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods? (john 10:34)
You did not even attempt to explain who these "gods" are, and why Jesus used this particular Psalm to justify himself claiming to be god. It is evident to any sane person that either Jesus was speaking of himself as god metaphorically, or else Jesus believed he was a god, and there were many gods of the past among the israelites (including David?). If Jesus clearly believed he alone is god, he would not have referenced this psalm.

If there are three persons, and each is God, then yes the Father will God to the Son and the Spirit. Likewise the Son will be God to the Father and the Spirit. And the Spirit will be God to the Son and the Father

Unfortunately for you, your bible only says that Jesus has a god, and it never says, not even once, that jesus is the god of his father, or that the holy spirit is the god of jesus's father. i hope you are not giving up on your commitment to sticking to verses from the bible to explain clearly your concept of the trinity.

but even if what you say is substantiated by your bible, it is still completely illogical and absurd. if there is one god, than no, the different persons within that god (or the different manifestations) cannot logically be gods to eachother.

and finally, the idea that jesus is a minor god and has a superior god (the father) is supported in many verses in scripture: You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I (john 14:28)

therefore, your contention that the three persons are equal, and they are all gods to eachother, is not only completely absurd, but directly contradicts what your own bible has to say.

Most 12 year olds are able to get this from the simple analogy of a triangle, or the three forms of water. Why are you struggling so much to understand what we mean by it? You keep wanting me to prove something from the Bible in regard to it, that we don't even assert to be true when we speak of the Trinity. I don't think your problem is that you are denser than a 12-year old. It may be just the opposite, you are too smart for your own good, and are trying to make something different out of the concept of the Trinity than it really is.

first of all, not a single analogy to help explain the trinity has made any sense. secondly, there are not "triangle analogies" in the new testament which explain the trinity, and may i remind you that it is your job to prove directly from your bible everything you believe to be fundamentally true about the trinity.

but since we are on the subject, i will post the following:http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/it_is_three_gods.htm

Muslim: Is Jesus God?
Christian: Yes
Muslim: Is Jesus the Father?
Christian: No
Muslim: Is the Father God?
Christian: Yes
Muslim: Is The Father Jesus?
Christian: No
Muslim: So these are 2 different persons?
Christian: Yes, 2 distinct different persons
Muslim: And both are God?
Christian: Yes
Muslim: Is the Holy Spirit God?
Christian: Yes
Muslim: Is the Holy Spirit the Father or Jesus?
Christian: No, the Holy Spirit is not
Muslim: So Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God?
Christian: Yes
Muslim: And these are three different persons?
Christian: Yes
Muslim: So you have three persons, each one is God, how many is that?
Christian: Three, opppssss no no I meant One
A Family is made up of more than one member, a Father, Mother, and Son. Yet the family is one family and not three families, the same with Trinity.
This is my favorite analogy, and it is one of the most deceptive analogies. The family statement is true, a family is made up of 2 or more persons, a typical basic family is a Husband, Wife, and son.
But here is the problem, Christians say that each person in the Trinity is God, remember Christians say Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God. So therefore using the Christian Trinity doctrine, that would basically mean that the husband is a family, the wife is a family, and the son is also a family!!!!!!! In a family we say that the husband wife and son MAKE UP A FAMILLY, we do not say that each specific member of the family is the family!

 

[MustafaMc]

Not a refutation at all. This is why we say three persons. There indeed are three distinct persons. But you have only shown one side of the coin. And we would be polytheists were it not for the reaffirmation in scripture that despite this recognition of three different persons who are God that there is still just one God. The doctrine of the Trinity simply is to explain how both can be true at the same time. Obviously, it is not a very good explanation in your mind.

I am sure that is frustrating for you to not be able to show Muslims how "three different persons who are God is still just one God." Until a proof is provided outside of the Bible and Christian theology, I don't see how I or any other Muslim could understand that the human being, Jesus (pbuh), is at the same time God and Son of God. We see God as being that entity called "the Father" that Jesus (pbuh) prayed to and spoke of so often in the NT. I believe that we will have to leave at the point that we agree to disagree.

 

[Keltoi]

I am sure that is frustrating for you to not be able to show Muslims how "three different persons who are God is still just one God." Until a proof is provided outside of the Bible and Christian theology, I don't see how I or any other Muslim could understand that the human being, Jesus (pbuh), is at the same time God and Son of God. We see God as being that entity called "the Father" that Jesus (pbuh) prayed to and spoke of so often in the NT. I believe that we will have to leave at the point that we agree to disagree.

Until proof is provided outside of the Qu'ran and Muslim theology that the angel Gabriel visited Mohammed and passed on a Message from God....yeah, isn't a very realistic expectation is it?