Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[جوري]

yes pls.. wow us with your know how.. would like to read your work for a change instead of that of your missionaries. Unless you wish to be in for another bout of having a foot in your mouth as usual?

 

[Phil12123]

The trinity is another transgression against the absolute and perfect Oneness of Allah. Like all false and satanic doctrines, it makes no sense and is completely illogical. So compare what Allah teaches and makes clear with that which Satan tries to deceive man, and you will see that Truth prevails, but falsehood always suffers defeat and shatters to pieces. May Allah Taala grant victory to the Believers, and may He destroy Christianity. Ameen.

Sounds like "beef" to me.

Peace

 

[MustafaMc]

1 John 5:20 -- "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He [which refers to Jesus as the immediate antecedent for the pronoun] is the true God and eternal life."

No, I disagree that the verse means what you say.

American Standard Version And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. My understanding of "we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God" is that when it says in his Son and then follows with this is the true God means that it is referring to other than the Son as being the true God. The beginning of the verse says that the Son of God gave an understanding of another (God) that is true.

 

[AB517]

yep, anything else to add??

Nope, If ya cant get passed this we get stuk in a fight between versus from this place or that ... which prooves nothing but that we know versous and that you can spell better then me. ... just look at the replies.

AB

 

[MustafaMc]

So, if I were non-Christian and non-Muslim and viewed both religions from a neutral position, I might think the Trinity is too hard for me to understand, but I sure enough would KNOW that I wasn't going to be sure of Heaven the Muslim way, working myself and hoping for mercy without any real promise of it, and with no one paying for my sins but ME if that mercy did not come.

We accept the Quran as the literal Word of God and it promises Paradise to the believers over and over again. We stand on the Promises of God and do not rely upon our "good works" to earn us salvation. Yes, we hope in the Mercy of Allah with no guarantee that we are in fact saved as only Allah can judge our faith and deeds as being sincere or hypocritical.

Knowing here and NOW my sins (past, present and future) are all forgiven, paid for in full, gives me peace, joy and happiness that you will never know about if you stay on your "right way."

Peace

We believe that what Christians are so sure about is a false hope - a mirage. Yes, one Day we will all know whether we built our house upon the solid rock or the shifting sand.

 

[MustafaMc]

I have reason to believe it has been very much so; for instance, since Muhammad couldn't read or write, Scribes wrote for him. They wrote on anything that was available leaves, stones, leather and bones and many committed to memory his words that were killed and scattered.

How does this relate to your claim of alteration & corruption?

Qoraishi dialect was supposed to be the standard Arabic, but there is confusion between that and modern Arabic.

Yes, the original Arabic of the Quran is different from that spoken in conversation today. Similar to the difference between Shakespear and Southern USA slang. What is the point?

Moreover, copies of Zaid’s collection some twenty-four were burned. The final choice for a canon seems to have had little to do with authenticity. During the time of Uthman, “No two Qur’ans were alike, yet in one edit they were all destroyed - except one”

What evidence do you have for the claim that the copies of the Quran prior to Uthman varied in meaning? This "***********" website has the history of Quranic compilation.

http://www.***********/history/quran_compiled.htm Website is not coming up - do a Yahoo search for "Quran history" and select #7. Actually ... http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu8wgm...://www.***********/history/quran_compiled.htm

There are also contradictions in the Qur’an. Muhammad even changed the words of Allah to please certain people and there are severe misrepresentations of the Christian believe.

Prove it. Do you have the "original" to show this claim?

The true Christian belief is a spirit that the Qur'an fails to convey and grossly misrepresents. If it were God (ALLAH) speaking, He would have known what the true spirit of Christianity is and not misrepresent it. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary considered part of a trinity. It is not even implied. Muhammad must have applied his understand to what he thought Allah was saying, and he didn’t correct this mistake like he did other times.

We have been arguing this point that to pray to someone or to ask blessings from anyone other than the One God is elevating that person to "God-hood".

Sometimes he would change what Allah said by saying that Satan deceived him into thinking it was Allah. When I read this and think about how he received visions by inspiration and revelations by dreams involving seizures and the painful thongs of bells in where he shivered and foamed at the mouth and roared like a camel, I wonder who is the true apostle between him and Paul. Yes, he would cancel some lines of what Allah said, because it was condoning or allowing the worship of idols. Some of his disciples left him because they thought how could he be so audacious to alter Allah’s words.

Give me some examples. I would like to read them. Yes, either Paul or Muhammad (pbuh) was a false prophet that preached falsehood to mislead people from the Straight path. We just differ on who we believe was a true prophet.

Muhammad saw that it shocked his disciples so he said Gabriel came to him and said to “Cancel what Satan interjects.” I don’t know about you, but I am sure that Muhammad was supernaturally empowered. The question is by whom? Even He thought his revelations were demonically inspired and his women assured the tormented prophet that they are from Allah. That satisfied him even though he believed the witness of a woman is half that of a man because of their lack of intelligence or deficiency of their mind.

Upon Muhammad's first contact with the Angel Jibrail, he did return to his only wife, Khadija, for comfort. Imagine for one moment your reaction to being squeezed by an Angel.

 

[جوري]

I am not going to reply back to this guy since I believe him to be a total nut case... but I speak Arabic fluently, and there is positively no confusion about the Arabic of the Quran and the Arabic that regular people speak. I speak a different Arabic from that of the Quran which is Arabic in its most eloquent and proper.. in fact any grammar we take in school, called Qawa3id, basis its Arabic on that of the Quran, so there is no confusion, Any Arabic speaking person will tell you that... He is just looking for excuses to be a moshrik... easy I suppose when your sins are forgiven to say and do as you fancy..

 

[vpb]

for instance, since Muhammad couldn't read or write, Scribes wrote for him. They wrote on anything that was available leaves, stones, leather and bones and many committed to memory his words that were killed and scattered.

The danger of losing the Qur'an because some , again i'm saying some sahabas died in battle who memorized Qur'an, was not even close for the Qur'an to be lost. This is a big lie of orientalists, why they try to prove that bc some people died, the whole Qur'an was lost or changed or whatever. You just told me that you have no knowledge of how the compilation went, whatsoever.

Qoraishi dialect was supposed to be the standard Arabic, but there is confusion between that and modern Arabic.

Still the Qur'an today is in Qoraishi dialect??? so?? what's that got to do with modern arabic?? the proper grammas of arabic today is learned from the Qur'an. So I don't know what are you trying to say.

Moreover, copies of Zaid’s collection some twenty-four were burned. The final choice for a canon seems to have had little to do with authenticity. During the time of Uthman, “No two Qur’ans were alike, yet in one edit they were all destroyed - except one”

Are you ignorant or what? have u read any history of Qur'an?? or you just got this information and interpret it however you want??
the other Qur'ans were burned, because since at that time the Qur'anic text was without the signs which we have today, and since there were in different dialects (7) ,people started reading it differently, and were making mistakes on reading, bc of the lack of the signs, actually the problem was with non-knowledgable people, so in order to eleminate the problem wich might pose danger in the future, Uthman made the standard version which was in Qoraishi dialect, the most famous one, and ordered all other to be burned, to make sure that it is read in only one, so people would not read it differently. and have a standard one, the qoraishi dialect.
please read before you come and just post anything here.

There are also contradictions in the Qur’an. Muhammad even changed the words of Allah to please certain people and there are severe misrepresentations of the Christian believe.

FALSE

The true Christian belief is a spirit that the Qur'an fails to convey and grossly misrepresents. If it were God (ALLAH) speaking, He would have known what the true spirit of Christianity is and not misrepresent it. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary considered part of a trinity.

What are you talking about, please show me the verse , where is Mary considered as part of trinity? and btw, you know nothing even about your religion, if people from paul's time would meet you, even they were deviated, they would called you 'non-christians', you have far deviated even from the sayings of Paul. and you want to come and accuse Qur;an? loll

It is not even implied. Muhammad must have applied his understand to what he thought Allah was saying, and he didn’t correct this mistake like he did other times. Sometimes he would change what Allah said by saying that Satan deceived him into thinking it was Allah. When I read this and think about how he received visions by inspiration and revelations by dreams involving seizures and the painful thongs of bells in where he shivered and foamed at the mouth and roared like a camel, I wonder who is the true apostle between him and Paul.

Muhammed didn't have any doubts about his revelation, I don't know why are stucked on this. you want to consider Paul with Muhammed??? Paul was a chrisitan-killer , and sudenlly he became an Apostle, you don't even know Paul's last name, you don't even have the full biography of Jesus, and you want to come and tell me about Muhammed? you have read nothing about Muhammed, or your ignorance is preventing you from, if you would read about Muhammed you would see his character, even before the revelation, he never accepted the idols, and he was known as the Al-Amin ( The trustworthy). so please don't make any of these ridicilous post.

Yes, he would cancel some lines of what Allah said, because it was condoning or allowing the worship of idols. Some of his disciples left him because they thought how could he be so audacious to alter Allah’s words.

PROOF !

Muhammad saw that it shocked his disciples so he said Gabriel came to him and said to “Cancel what Satan interjects.” I don’t know about you, but I am sure that Muhammad was supernaturally empowered. The question is by whom? Even He thought his revelations were demonically inspired and his women assured the tormented prophet that they are from Allah.

Muhammed never had any doubts on his revelation. I don't know what are you talking about, where are holding on? please show what is this opinion of yours based on.

That satisfied him even though he believed the witness of a woman is half that of a man because of their lack of intelligence or deficiency of their mind.

does Qur';an says anywhere "Woman is less intelligent than man??" ??? does it??
Qur'an all it says is that for witness, as for women there should be two that if one forgets the other reminds here. How do you to the conclusion to make the statement that "Women are less intelligence than man?" who was even talking about intelligence?? why are you twisting the words??
and btw, maybe you should checkout your Bible first, and see how women are precieved. by bible I don't think you should even be allowed to paricipate in this forum, bc you are a woman and you have no right to do anything.

My point is how could I be accountable to Allah for not receiving Muhammad’s witness when he doubted his own revelations and visions?

again, what are u talking about? who doubted his revelations? not even his companion doubted his revelation, let alone Muhammed saws. You points are so ridicilous, and very orientalist flavor. and you will be held accountable , cuz Muhammed was very sure about his revelations, and he was the most God-fearing than anyone else in this world.

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation or visions.

Who said they were prophets?? did they recieved revelations? or just wrote was would please their leaders?

You say the Bible is not reliable. I don’t believe that. It is written "He that has the Son has life; He that has not the Son has not life but the wrath of God abides on them."

well, wether you like the truth or not, the bible is not reliable and has been corrupted. and there are many proofs, in any field wether anology, prophecy, historicaly, scientifically... whatever u want, all of them are but a failure and show that Bible is indeed corrupted. as I showed how they changed the meaning of the verses of John, on the greek manuscript due to the lack of word seperators.

 

[NoName55]

I don't believe it was Jibrail, it was an angel impersonating Jibrail. I can see a greater testimony of God in Paul's life. Here is a zealot who used to consent to the killing of Christians. He would hunt them down like animals having them killed and arrested. Suddenly, he is changed, because Jesus blinded him saying "You are persecuting me" The Christians Paul was hunting down believed in the deity of Jesus - they were Christians of the early church.

By the way, you want prove about the other thing. OK, but the proof is not going to convince you of anything, so why ask for it? Nevertheless, I ‘ll give it to you. I thought you would know about “Satanic Verse” It commanded them to worship idols: “ …Those swans are exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected.” Muhammad cancelled these verses from Allah.

Suddenly, he is changed, because Jesus blinded him saying "You are persecuting me"

If you can't beat them join them

One could say that he thought; it is becoming difficult to destroy the believers as they are becoming numerous and stronger in Eemaan in Allah. So one way to destroy the believer is to do it from within the group. as is done by rafidah to believers of today.

 

[vpb]

If you can't beat them join them

One could say that he thought; it is becoming difficult to destroy the believers as they are becoming numerous and stronger in Eemaan in Allah. So one way to destroy the believer is to do it from within the group. as is done by rafidah to believers of today.

it's not the problem of joining after being a christian-killer, but the problem is that he was a christian-killer and then suddenly changed to Christianity, BUT we know nothing anymore about him. We don't know what life he lived, or who he was, what he did. that is the problem.

 

[Grace Seeker]

No, I disagree that the verse means what you say.

American Standard Version And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. My understanding of "we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God" is that when it says in his Son and then follows with this is the true God means that it is referring to other than the Son as being the true God. The beginning of the verse says that the Son of God gave an understanding of another (God) that is true.

Even in the version you used, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that you do. The term "this" still refers back to "Jesus Christ" as its antecedent.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all, sorry to come in so late;

John 10
30 I and the Father are one."

Can Jesus and God the Father be one through the greatest commandments?

The Father loves all that he is with all his heart, mind soul and strength.
The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself?
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself?

Can God love Jesus more than he loves himself?

Can it possibly be that if we are created in the greatest image of God, then we are given the greatest commandments for this purpose. Is the oneness striving for a perfect relationship to be as one like in a marraige.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

 

[Phil12123]

Greetings and peace be with you all, sorry to come in so late;

John 10
30 I and the Father are one."

Can Jesus and God the Father be one through the greatest commandments?

The Father loves all that he is with all his heart, mind soul and strength.
The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself?
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself?

Can God love Jesus more than he loves himself?

Can it possibly be that if we are created in the greatest image of God, then we are given the greatest commandments for this purpose. Is the oneness striving for a perfect relationship to be as one like in a marraige.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

I might agree with you if I knew what you were trying to say. Sorry, you've confused me.

Peace

 

[Redeemed]

If you can't beat them join them

One could say that he thought; it is becoming difficult to destroy the believers as they are becoming numerous and stronger in Eemaan in Allah. So one way to destroy the believer is to do it from within the group. as is done by rafidah to believers of today.

You don't really believe this do you?:?

 

[Woodrow]

You don't really believe this do you?:?

I would say that is a simplified concept of what we believe Paul did to Christianity.

We do believe that Jesus(as) had the true word of Allah(swt) and that the early Christians were true Believers. However, Christianity was destroyed from within by the introduction of false teachings that began with Paul.

All that remains of Christianity is a shell of what it was and a strong belief of what it was never supposed to become. The Christians ceased being Christian when they began to worship Christ(as) as Allah(swt)

 

[vpb]

The situation was not comfortable for the Bible to be preserved due to the continuous hostility recieved from the jews at that time. so it was a perfect situation for the bible to be changed, and then later include stories from Paul and these other people.

 

[Redeemed]

I would say that is a simplified concept of what we believe Paul did to Christianity.

We do believe that Jesus(as) had the true word of Allah(swt) and that the early Christians were true Believers. However, Christianity was destroyed from within by the introduction of false teachings that began with Paul.

All that remains of Christianity is a shell of what it was and a strong belief of what it was never supposed to become. The Christians ceased being Christian when they began to worship Christ(as) as Allah(swt)

That argument seems to be a bit weak when Paul was a very intelligent apostel who counted all things as dung his life his wealth and health that he might win Christ. What are the chances of Muslims like yourselves becoming Christians cause u can't beat them?

 

[NoName55]

What are the chances of Muslims like yourselves becoming Christians cause u can't beat them?

unlike enemies of God, we are not allowed to be deceptive, so answer is none, zero, nil

 

[vpb]

it is impossible for a muslim who has knowledge about Islam to leave Islam, unless Allah swt wants so.

Islam is like the food, sometimes you can smell it, but in order to taste and you need to eat it. Nothing is compared to the beauty of Islam. If people would know what it offers, they would realize what is Islam.

 

[Keltoi]

it is impossible for a muslim who has knowledge about Islam to leave Islam, unless Allah swt wants so.

It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?