Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[vpb]

It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?

If a muslims has knowledge about Islam, knows a lot about Islam, has knowledge on Qur'an , Hadith, etc. than it is impossible for him/her to leave Islam, unless Allah swt wants. because you get tied to Islam, you can see its beauty, and you would consider yourself crazy leaving that beauty. as the Prophet Muhammed saws said that if you would know what we have in our hearts , you would come with a sword to take it from our hearts. but we can't explain it, cuz the power of expressing our feelings is very limited.

 

[Redeemed]

unlike enemies of God, we are not allowed to be deceptive, so answer is none, zero, nil

So what makes you think that Paul would do that?

 

[Redeemed]

I ask again if our salvation depends on us doing well or that our good tips the scale in our favor with Allah, then, what part is Allah's in our salvation. In other words, we can boast by saying it was my good works that saved us not our depending on Allah giving it to us. You say that I choose to sin, cause I ascribe a partner with God. I submit to you all that you do the same. For instance, to be a Muslim (so you say) and to be saved for eternity, you must say the Shahabad along with living right. Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. I didn’t get this from any book; the Lord showed me this!

 

[Woodrow]

That argument seems to be a bit weak when Paul was a very intelligent apostel who counted all things as dung his life his wealth and health that he might win Christ. What are the chances of Muslims like yourselves becoming Christians cause u can't beat them?

I will agree that Paul was very intelligent. I have heard many people describe him as being the original Ph.D of Christianity and he did know more about the Christianity of today than any other person possibly can. But, that is only logical as he was the architect of what Christianity became. Why he lead people to become trinitarians is something only he can answer and he only has to explain that to God(swt)

How and why he directed Christianity away from Christ(as) and God(swt) I will never know.
Perhaps it was to conquer the early Christians for Greece?
Perhaps he was misguided by a force?
Perhaps he felt he could improve upon what Christ(as) was teaching?

I can not imagine a Muslim leaving Islam for any reason. The Joy of living to serve Allah(swt) is much too great of a Joy to give up. It can not be explained, it has to be felt. Once it is felt, there is no need for any thing else.
I have no desire outside of giving all of the love I possibly can, to Allah(swt) alone. To love Allah(swt) is the greatest fulfillment a Human can have on Earth.

 

[NoName55]

you must say the Shahabad along with living right. Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. I didn’t get this from any book; the Lord showed me this!

I rest my case and resign from discussion with a modern day "prophet"

 

[Muslim Woman]

It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?

There are more than 100 Imams ( minimum ) in the 2 holiest mosques of Muslim. I never heard that anyone left Islam .

But i read about some prominent Christian missionaries ( priests / pastors ) who left Christianity for Islam. Those who were holding higher positions in the Church , surely they were ' real ' Chrisitians ??? After studying their Bible & Quran , they choose Islam

hehe now u may give me a list of prominet Imams who lest Islam . If u want to do that , pl. give me specific info so that i can check . Pl. don't only browse anti-Islamic sites where they claimed that so & so left Islam without proper info .

 

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

The trinitarian believes a virgin to be the mother of a son who is her maker.

loll i like this sentence

funny & pathetic . No offence pl. but I came to a conclusion that Chrsitians are realllllllllllllllly extremelllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy intelligent people .

Otherwise , how it is possible for them to understand so many complicated concepts when Muslims failed to understand even one ? :blind:


I think , one of the best puzzles i heard is this one : a virgin to be the mother of a son who is her maker :rollseyes


Verses of the Day



Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses. ( 5: 78)


They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah ( God Almighty) sees well all that they do. ( chapter 5 , verses 70-71)



Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah ( God Almighty) , and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"



..... Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.


... If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.

 

[Redeemed]

I will agree that Paul was very intelligent. I have heard many people describe him as being the original Ph.D of Christianity and he did know more about the Christianity of today than any other person possibly can. But, that is only logical as he was the architect of what Christianity became. Why he lead people to become trinitarians is something only he can answer and he only has to explain that to God(swt)

How and why he directed Christianity away from Christ(as) and God(swt) I will never know.
Perhaps it was to conquer the early Christians for Greece?
Perhaps he was misguided by a force?
Perhaps he felt he could improve upon what Christ(as) was teaching?

I can not imagine a Muslim leaving Islam for any reason. The Joy of living to serve Allah(swt) is much too great of a Joy to give up. It can not be explained, it has to be felt. Once it is felt, there is no need for any thing else.
I have no desire outside of giving all of the love I possibly can, to Allah(swt) alone. To love Allah(swt) is the greatest fulfillment a Human can have on Earth.

To be honest with U I don't have any such feelings U speak of nor would I trust those feelings if I did. My feelings make a wonderful servant but a poor leader. The just shall live by faith. I agree that to love God with all our heart, soul and mind is the greatest fulfillment we can have. God however, has made all people nations and tongues to submit to Jesus. Life outside of these conditions is not possible. Without light we are blind; without the sun, trees die; without the Son, we are in darkness and our souls will die.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Originally Posted by Woodrow : I will agree that Paul was very intelligent. I have heard many people describe him as being the original Ph.D of Christianity

It reminds me that a non-Muslim ..most probably Christian .......Micheal Hart ( spell check , pl. ) put Paul before Jesus (p) in his 100 most influenced persons in the world book.

 

[Woodrow]

To be honest with U I don't have any such feelings U speak of nor would I trust those feelings if I did. My feelings make a wonderful servant but a poor leader. The just shall live by faith. I agree that to love God with all our heart, soul and mind is the greatest fulfillment we can have. God however, has made all people nations and tongues to submit to Jesus. Life outside of these conditions is not possible. Without light we are blind; without the sun, trees die; without the Son, we are in darkness and our souls will die.

Except it is a fallacy to believe Jesus(as) is God(swt). To live without worshiping God(swt) is darkness and without Him we are blind. Allah(swt) has made all of creation to worship Him. All people and all nations and all tongues are to submit to Him alone.

 

[MustafaMc]

It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?

An analogy - Can you ever believe that the earth is flat as was once thought?

Well, neither can I believe again that Jesus (pbuh) was Son of God and at the same time fully God. This completely contradicts my understanding of the One God.

 

[جوري]

Except it is a fallacy to believe Jesus(as) is God(swt). To live without worshiping God(swt) is darkness and without Him we are blind. Allah(swt) has made all of creation to worship Him. All people and all nations and all tongues are to submit to Him alone.

Jesus PBUH was sent to the lost sheep of Bani Israel. "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matthew

the whole man-kind bit, is a Paul ploy, and we frankly don't care for him... So Jesus isn't the savior of all humanity, but a specific group of humanity in that particular period of time! he isn't a son G-D or a G-D-- sometimes when I read these posts repeatedly I find them so absurd... I can't imagine a dialogue extended for pages over the same point.

 

[MustafaMc]

I submit to you all that you do the same. For instance, to be a Muslim (so you say) and to be saved for eternity, you must say the Shahabad along with living right. Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. I didn’t get this from any book; the Lord showed me this!

We do not place Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as an equal with Allah nor do any of us believe that he was more than a Servant of Allah, Prophet of Allah and Messenger of Allah. The first part of the shahada is about testifying that there is only one God as the fundamental, basic belief of Islam. The second part has to do with accepting Muhammad (pbuh) as a Messenger of Allah, the Quran revealed through Muhammad (pbuh) as the Word of Allah, and accepting his Sunnah (hadith & oral traditions) as the proper way to worship Allah and how to live one's life.

Is it enough to believe in Allah? Well, don't you think that Satan believes in Allah? Salvation is based on proper belief and submitting oneself to the Will of Allah as DEMONSTRATED by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[Phil12123]

I would say that is a simplified concept of what we believe Paul did to Christianity.

We do believe that Jesus(as) had the true word of Allah(swt) and that the early Christians were true Believers. However, Christianity was destroyed from within by the introduction of false teachings that began with Paul.

What "false teachings that began with Paul"? And what were the true teachings of Jesus that he replaced with his false teachings? Can you be more specific or give me some examples, citing the verses written by Paul that show his "false teachings"?

All that remains of Christianity is a shell of what it was and a strong belief of what it was never supposed to become. The Christians ceased being Christian when they began to worship Christ(as) as Allah(swt)

If the "early Christians were true Believers" that would include Jesus' original 12 apostles (except Judas), right? Well, John was among them and perhaps the one closest to Jesus. Yet it is HE who penned John 1:1 and it is HE who gave the account of Thomas who fell at the risen Jesus' feet and said, "My Lord and my God." And during His earthly ministry, Jesus was worshipped by many and not once did He rebuke that worship. By contrast, Peter rebuked Cornelius and the angel rebuked John when they improperly worshipped someone other than God (Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 22:8-9). So it is wrong to think worship of Jesus did not begin till Paul came on the scene. It began among His first disciples when they slowly but surely came to realize Jesus was no mere man.

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

funny & pathetic . No offence pl. but I came to a conclusion that Chrsitians are realllllllllllllllly extremelllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy intelligent people.

Otherwise, how it is possible for them to understand so many complicated concepts when Muslims failed to understand even one ? :blind:

I think, one of the best puzzles i heard is this one: a virgin to be the mother of a son who is her maker

You're much too modest, because you really are intelligent enough yourself to understand it. Just believe the Word of God:

John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made[including all people including Mary].
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 1
26. Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27. to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
28. And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!''
29. But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30. Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32. "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33. "And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.''
34. Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?''
35. And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
36. "Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren.
37. "For with God nothing will be impossible.''
38. Then Mary said, "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.'' And the angel departed from her.

Now simple enough, isn't it?

Peace

 

[Redeemed]

We do not place Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as an equal with Allah nor do any of us believe that he was more than a Servant of Allah, Prophet of Allah and Messenger of Allah. The first part of the shahada is about testifying that there is only one God as the fundamental, basic belief of Islam. The second part has to do with accepting Muhammad (pbuh) as a Messenger of Allah, the Quran revealed through Muhammad (pbuh) as the Word of Allah, and accepting his Sunnah (hadith & oral traditions) as the proper way to worship Allah and how to live one's life.

Is it enough to believe in Allah? Well, don't you think that Satan believes in Allah? Salvation is based on proper belief and submitting oneself to the Will of Allah as DEMONSTRATED by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

I understand, but you still have to mention Muhammad in the Shahada as his messenger or you can't be a Muslim. I know you don't worship him, but his name must be mentioned as your declaration of submission. If you don't mention the name of the prophet, your profession to salvation is void; therefore, you do what you accuse us of for just a messenger who you ascribe to Allah as part of your Shahada that is necessary for your religion. We are the ones who confess to only one God and no prophet or messenger. This is what God showed me. The devil is the accuser of the saints. He is the big liar not us.

 

[Redeemed]

We do not place Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as an equal with Allah nor do any of us believe that he was more than a Servant of Allah, Prophet of Allah and Messenger of Allah. The first part of the shahada is about testifying that there is only one God as the fundamental, basic belief of Islam. The second part has to do with accepting Muhammad (pbuh) as a Messenger of Allah, the Quran revealed through Muhammad (pbuh) as the Word of Allah, and accepting his Sunnah (hadith & oral traditions) as the proper way to worship Allah and how to live one's life.

Is it enough to believe in Allah? Well, don't you think that Satan believes in Allah? Salvation is based on proper belief and submitting oneself to the Will of Allah as DEMONSTRATED by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Of course, I know that the devils believe in one God and tremble that is Scriptural, but your response doesn't explain away my point!

 

[Redeemed]

Thus says the Lord: Do not listen to what the prophets say, they buoy you up with false hopes; the vision they report springs from their own imagination, it is not from the mouth of the Lord. They say to those who spurn the word of the Lord, Prosperity shall be yours;...No disaster shall befall you… The Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside, until he has accomplished and fulfilled his deep designs. In days to come you will fully understand. I did not send these prophets, yet they went in haste; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied. If they have stood in my council, let them proclaim my words to my people and turn them from their evil course and their evil doings. Am I a God only near at hand, not far away? Can a man hide in any secret place and I not see him? Do I not fill heaven and earth? This is the very word of the Lord.

 

[جوري]

it is amazing you can write all that, and still believe Saul the sworn nemesis of Jesus is a true prophet... That is curious but predictable go on drawing satisfaction from simplistic conclusion, Jesus died for your sins so you are free to commit as many as you can-- and yet feel saved-- you have a free pass after all.

 

[Redeemed]

I have heard what the prophets say, the prophets who speak lies in my name and cry, 'I have had a dream, a dream!' How long will it be till they change their tune, these prophets who prophesy lies and give voice to their own inventions?...I am against the prophets who steal my words from one another for their own use. I am against the prophets, says the Lord, who concoct words of their own and then say, 'This is the very word' I am against the prophets, says the Lord who dream lies and retail them, misleading my people with wild and reckless falsehoods. It was not I who sent them or commissioned them, and they will do this people no good. THIS IS THE VERY WORD OFTHE LORD.