Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Woodrow]

You are a mature and gracious person Woodrow, and there is no doubt in my mind of your sincerity and genuine concern for me as well as your brothers on the forum; however, it is following my words that will deliver you and your Muslim brothers and sisters from the fire of hell you speak of, because they are not my words but the words of God. Why would I lie? It is Allah that tells me to tell you that this is true, and Allah wants to speak to you directly. Ask Him to show you. He is not a God out in the distance too busy to be concern with our triviality No, he is closer than the air we breath and concerned even when a sparrow falls to the ground. How much more is he concerned with you and me? He is a loving a personal God. OH why will you miss out? Why? Ask and you will receive from him directly. Trust him for yourself and not through the voice of another man; otherwise, you are truly ascribing unto God a partner who you need to hear from God for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

It was through many years of searching that I came to know the Truth of Islam. No person has ever tried to convince me to accept Islam.

It was as a young seminarian that i learned the error of Catholicism. At that time and for a long time afterwards I believed that Christianity was the path and the problem was that nobody practiced Christianity.


To me Christianity was very beautiful and full of hope and promise. To believe that Jesus(as) came to earth and was God(swt) offering himself so that I may join him in heaven was a wonderful inspiring message. It did give me great joy and assurance, even in my darkest days when I was nearly an atheist I would still call upon Jesus(as) to show me the truest and best way to worship him.

Yet, God(swt) in his Divine mercy was kind and helped me see the errors of Christianity, that I did not want to believe were false. I was able to see that through readings of Church History it went from people worshiping God(swt) to seeking ways to speak to God(swt) through Jesus(as) Then the prayers slowly changed and became Speaking to Jesus(as) instead of God(as) and today it has reached the point were people no longer worship the God(swt) Jesus(as) tried so hard to teach people to worship.

Oddly, non-Catholics can see it happening with Catholics were the "Mother of God(swt)" is called upon to ask Jesus(as) for favors. It is only a matter of time now before Catholics will be replacing Jesus(as) with Mary and the separation from God(swt) will be complete. That is what I see happening with all of Christianity and among some it has already been completed. Jesus(as) has replaced God(swt) for many Christians and soon people will "forget" that God(swt) was the creator. The path is already set that it is just a matter of time that Jesus(as) will be seen as the creator and than Christianity will become Monotheistic, but only in the sense of worshiping one God(swt) they will have separated themselves completely from worshiping the God(swt) of Abraham and will be worshiping Jesus(as) alone.

I can not follow you down the path to Hellfire, no matter how beautiful and promising it looks. I prefer to stay on the straight path that leads to Jannah even if it is filled with many trials.


A'uzu Billahi Minash shaitanir Rajim

 

[Keltoi]

It was through many years of searching that I came to know the Truth of Islam. No person has ever tried to convince me to accept Islam.

It was as a young seminarian that i learned the error of Catholicism. At that time and for a long time afterwards I believed that Christianity was the path and the problem was that nobody practiced Christianity.


To me Christianity was very beautiful and full of hope and promise. To believe that Jesus(as) came to earth and was God(swt) offering himself so that I may join him in heaven was a wonderful inspiring message. It did give me great joy and assurance, even in my darkest days when I was nearly an atheist I would still call upon Jesus(as) to show me the truest and best way to worship him.

Yet, God(swt) in his Divine mercy was kind and helped me see the errors of Christianity, that I did not want to believe were false. I was able to see that through readings of Church History it went from people worshiping God(swt) to seeking ways to speak to God(swt) through Jesus(as) Then the prayers slowly changed and became Speaking to Jesus(as) instead of God(as) and today it has reached the point were people no longer worship the God(swt) Jesus(as) tried so hard to teach people to worship.

Oddly, non-Catholics can see it happening with Catholics were the "Mother of God(swt)" is called upon to ask Jesus(as) for favors. It is only a matter of time now before Catholics will be replacing Jesus(as) with Mary and the separation from God(swt) will be complete. That is what I see happening with all of Christianity and among some it has already been completed. Jesus(as) has replaced God(swt) for many Christians and soon people will "forget" that God(swt) was the creator. The path is already set that it is just a matter of time that Jesus(as) will be seen as the creator and than Christianity will become Monotheistic, but only in the sense of worshiping one God(swt) they will have separated themselves completely from worshiping the God(swt) of Abraham and will be worshiping Jesus(as) alone.

I can not follow you down the path to Hellfire, no matter how beautiful and promising it looks. I prefer to stay on the straight path that leads to Jannah even if it is filled with many trials.


A'uzu Billahi Minash shaitanir Rajim

On the issue of Catholicism and saints, I think much of this is non-Catholic misunderstanding. Yes, Protestants and others are uncomfortable with saints playing such a large role in Catholic devotion, but to suggest that Catholics would replace Christ with Mary or any other saint is a little much. I understand why you as a Muslim would be uncomfortable with Catholic devotion to saints, as it gives me the same pause, but I honestly don't believe Catholics are in danger of worshipping saints. To a Catholic, saints are Christian role models, those whose faith in God is a guiding "light" in their lives. The saints are in Heaven, and are not dead in the spiritual sense. So just as one may pray for another, Catholics look to saints to pray for them.

Now this may seem unneccesary and dancing on the borderline to me and you, but from a Catholic standpoint they are not worshipping saints or holding them up to the same level as God. Saints are considered to be closer to God because of their strong faith and their works.

 

[vpb]

On the issue of Catholicism and saints, I think much of this is non-Catholic misunderstanding. Yes, Protestants and others are uncomfortable with saints playing such a large role in Catholic devotion, but to suggest that Catholics would replace Christ with Mary or any other saint is a little much. I understand why you as a Muslim would be uncomfortable with Catholic devotion to saints, as it gives me the same pause, but I honestly don't believe Catholics are in danger of worshipping saints. To a Catholic, saints are Christian role models, those whose faith in God is a guiding "light" in their lives. The saints are in Heaven, and are not dead in the spiritual sense. So just as one may pray for another, Catholics look to saints to pray for them.

shouldn't the prophets mentioned in the bible be a role model to Christians? since they were sent by God?

 

[Redeemed]

It was through many years of searching that I came to know the Truth of Islam. No person has ever tried to convince me to accept Islam.

It was as a young seminarian that i learned the error of Catholicism. At that time and for a long time afterwards I believed that Christianity was the path and the problem was that nobody practiced Christianity.


To me Christianity was very beautiful and full of hope and promise. To believe that Jesus(as) came to earth and was God(swt) offering himself so that I may join him in heaven was a wonderful inspiring message. It did give me great joy and assurance, even in my darkest days when I was nearly an atheist I would still call upon Jesus(as) to show me the truest and best way to worship him.

Yet, God(swt) in his Divine mercy was kind and helped me see the errors of Christianity, that I did not want to believe were false. I was able to see that through readings of Church History it went from people worshiping God(swt) to seeking ways to speak to God(swt) through Jesus(as) Then the prayers slowly changed and became Speaking to Jesus(as) instead of God(as) and today it has reached the point were people no longer worship the God(swt) Jesus(as) tried so hard to teach people to worship.

Oddly, non-Catholics can see it happening with Catholics were the "Mother of God(swt)" is called upon to ask Jesus(as) for favors. It is only a matter of time now before Catholics will be replacing Jesus(as) with Mary and the separation from God(swt) will be complete. That is what I see happening with all of Christianity and among some it has already been completed. Jesus(as) has replaced God(swt) for many Christians and soon people will "forget" that God(swt) was the creator. The path is already set that it is just a matter of time that Jesus(as) will be seen as the creator and than Christianity will become Monotheistic, but only in the sense of worshiping one God(swt) they will have separated themselves completely from worshiping the God(swt) of Abraham and will be worshiping Jesus(as) alone.

I can not follow you down the path to Hellfire, no matter how beautiful and promising it looks. I prefer to stay on the straight path that leads to Jannah even if it is filled with many trials.


A'uzu Billahi Minash shaitanir Rajim

I understand. I was born and raised Catholic, and I too left the Catholic faith, because it was inconsistent with the Bible in many places. Christianity is monotheistic, but Catholics that pray to Mary as an intercessor would be ascribing a partner with God. I can't blame Muhammad for accusing the Catholics of this, but Muhammad only knew Christianity through a Catholic perspective. When you left Catholicism, that was one thing, but leaving Christianity and the Jesus of the Bible as your Savior is throwing the baby out with the wash.

 

[vpb]

but Catholics that pray to Mary as an intercessor would be ascribing a partner with God.

haha

they do through Mary (the Mother of Jesus), (which you call partnership to God)
you do through Jesus (The son of Mary) (which you don't call it as partnership to God)

what's the difference here?

lolll

 

[Redeemed]

haha

they do through Mary (the Mother of Jesus), (which you call partnership to God)
you do through Jesus (The son of Mary) (which you don't call it as partnership to God)

what's the difference here?

lolll

The difference is all the difference in the world. In all this time haven't you learned anything from us Christians about what we believe according to the Bible? Jesus is our and Mary's Creator. He is God in the flesh, but he is not limited to the confines of humanity. He laid down his life; no one could take it. He rose from the dead. There are no distortions in this. It is the devil that is spreading that lie to destroy many souls in hell, and it is working,

 

[Woodrow]

I understand. I was born and raised Catholic, and I too left the Catholic faith, because it was inconsistent with the Bible in many places. Christianity is monotheistic, but Catholics that pray to Mary as an intercessor would be ascribing a partner with God. I can't blame Muhammad for accusing the Catholics of this, but Muhammad only knew Christianity through a Catholic perspective. When you left Catholicism, that was one thing, but leaving Christianity and the Jesus of the Bible as your Savior is throwing the baby out with the wash.

A'uzu Billahi Minash shaitanir Rajim

When you left Catholicism, that was one thing, but leaving Christianity and the Jesus of the Bible as your Savior is throwing the baby out with the wash.

It was not an over night decision to say I was leaving Christianity. In fact I can not even say there was a deciding point I left Christianity. I firmly believe it was because I had deep faith in Jesus(as) that Allah(swt) helped show me the path to Islam and it was from knowning Jesus(as) that I came to understand that Islam is the message he was teaching. I did not throw the baby out with the water, I pulled the baby out of the mud in the bottom cleaned it up and saw how beautiful the baby truly is when seen clearly.


Allah(swt) is truly comforting and gives me great hope for the future. as wonderful the alleged Words of Jesus felt, they can not begin to approach the joy, comfort and reality of Truth.

 

[Redeemed]

A'uzu Billahi Minash shaitanir Rajim



It was not an over night decision to say I was leaving Christianity. In fact I can not even say there was a deciding point I left Christianity. I firmly believe it was because I had deep faith in Jesus(as) that Allah(swt) helped show me the path to Islam and it was from knowning Jesus(as) that I came to understand that Islam is the message he was teaching. I did not throw the baby out with the water, I pulled the baby out of the mud in the bottom cleaned it up and saw how beautiful the baby truly is when seen clearly.


Allah(swt) is truly comforting and gives me great hope for the future. as wonderful the alleged Words of Jesus felt, they can not begin to approach the joy, comfort and reality of Truth.

Wow, we are indeed looking through different glasses. It just makes me long for his coming to set the record straight. i GUESS WE ARE IN AGREEMENT ON THAT ONE.

 

[Woodrow]

Wow, we are indeed looking through different glasses. It just makes me long for his coming to set the record straight. i GUESS WE ARE IN AGREEMENT ON THAT ONE.

I just fell out of my chair, we agreed on something.


It is true we both do agree on that. I also believe it is true that we both want what is best for each other. However, I do not see us agreeing on what is the true path.

 

[vpb]

The difference is all the difference in the world. In all this time haven't you learned anything from us Christians about what we believe according to the Bible? Jesus is our and Mary's Creator. He is God in the flesh, but he is not limited to the confines of humanity. He laid down his life; no one could take it. He rose from the dead. There are no distortions in this. It is the devil that is spreading that lie to destroy many souls in hell, and it is working,

hahah
yes, you back up my statement:

they do through Mary (the Mother of Jesus), (which you call partnership to God)
you do through Jesus (The son of Mary) (which you don't call it as partnership to God)

by saying that Jesus is the creator, and of course you have to , in order to defend the point that I made, so you can change the meaning a little bit, so it doesn't look as joining partnership to God. You have to give to JEsus the power of creating, in order to make it different for joining partnership through Mary . but you see you choose here what you want, you give to Jesus different powers, in order to defend your point by saying that beliving through jesus is not joining partnership to God.


but I think I see what you are trying to do.

1. you know that we believe in Oneness of God.
2. you try to make Islam in a way which "joins partnership to God", by your claim that about the shahada.
3. you claim that christianity does not teach to join partnership to God,
which we come to the 4th point, the conclusion,
4. since we believe in oneness of God, you want us by using the points above, to make us leave Islam since Islam contains shirk, and join christianity which does not contain shirk.

what a wonderful puzzle

do you think we don't understand what is shirk?

Jesus is our and Mary's Creator.

but how come Jesus be the creator of us and mary, but at the same time you say Jesus is son of God??? ;D

 

[Keltoi]

hahah
yes, you back up my statement:
by saying that Jesus is the creator, and of course you have to , in order to defend the point that I made, so you can change the meaning a little bit, so it doesn't look as joining partnership to God. You have to give to JEsus the power of creating, in order to make it different for joining partnership through Mary . but you see you choose here what you want, you give to Jesus different powers, in order to defend your point by saying that beliving through jesus is not joining partnership to God.


but I think I see what you are trying to do.

1. you know that we believe in Oneness of God.
2. you try to make Islam in a way which "joins partnership to God", by your claim that about the shahada.
3. you claim that christianity does not teach to join partnership to God,
which we come to the 4th point, the conclusion,
4. since we believe in oneness of God, you want us by using the points above, to make us leave Islam since Islam contains shirk, and join christianity which does not contain shirk.

what a wonderful puzzle

do you think we don't understand what is shirk?

but how come Jesus be the creator of us and mary, but at the same time you say Jesus is son of God??? ;D

The Son of God isn't in reference to God actually producing a physical offspring, so the point is mute.

 

[vpb]

The Son of God isn't in reference to God actually producing a physical offspring, so the point is mute.

It doesn't matter. eitherway u say.The fact of Jesus being God, the creator of everything and at the same time being Son of God. can't have both toegether. You can either claim Jesus is God, and the creator of everything, or claim that he is just the son of God, and through him your worship God.

btw, jews took the saying of "son of God" just for a metaphoric use. not physicaly or logicaly.

 

[Keltoi]

It doesn't matter. eitherway u say.The fact of Jesus being God, the creator of everything and at the same time being Son of God. can't have both toegether. You can either claim Jesus is God, and the creator of everything, or claim that he is just the son of God, and through him your worship God.

This just shows how little understanding you have of the Christian faith, which is okay, you aren't a Christian.

Christ is the Son of God because He was of the flesh, but He and the Father were One.

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

These verses are only a few that explain why Christians cannot look at Christ as simply a prophet of God. It is not possible for Christians to draw a line between God and Jesus Christ.

 

[vpb]

This just shows how little understanding you have of the Christian faith, which is okay, you aren't a Christian.

I know and I undestand what you teach, but it doesn't make sense. but anyways.

Christ is the Son of God because He was of the flesh, but He and the Father were One.

being in a flesh doesn't make you son of God.

now you are saying:

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

but the other verse in the bible, shows that Jesus said that God is one, he didn't say "me and God are one".

 

[vpb]

20. MARK 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

why is jesus saying The Lord our God is one Lord if you are saying that Jesus and Father are one???

25. EPHESIANS 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

but in this verse , we se that it says Father of All, so it's not just Father of Jesus, but also our father.

26. 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

see where it says invisible, how come then God was visible to people in flesh?

 

[Philosopher]

Christ is the Son of God because He was of the flesh, but He and the Father were One.

Absolutely nonsensical. How can one being be the father and son at the same time?? Please study the law of identity.

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

Umm.....you do know that that's a forged verse right?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm
http://members.aol.com/JAlw/trinity_forgery.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/1716/errors.html
http://www.awitness.org/column/forgery_heresy_bible.html

These verses are only a few that explain why Christians cannot look at Christ as simply a prophet of God. It is not possible for Christians to draw a line between God and Jesus Christ.

See above links to see why those verses were forgeries. Also, here are some good resources exposing the Trinity as a copy of past pagan beliefs:

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.html
http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/index.html
http://societies.csc.tcd.ie/~theo/inaug.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris-Dionysus
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/dionysus.htm

 

[vpb]

Absolutely nonsensical. How can one being be the father and son at the same time?? Please study the law of identity.

that's why I said, one way they claim Jesus to be God , the creator, and and the same time they say He is the son of God.

 

[Woodrow]

Absolutely nonsensical. How can one being be the father and son at the same time?? Please study the law of identity.



Umm.....you do know that that's a forged verse right?


http://www.religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm
http://members.aol.com/JAlw/trinity_forgery.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/1716/errors.html
http://www.awitness.org/column/forgery_heresy_bible.html



See above links to see why those verses were forgeries. Also, here are some good resources exposing the Trinity as a copy of past pagan beliefs:

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.html
http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/index.html
http://societies.csc.tcd.ie/~theo/inaug.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris-Dionysus
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/dionysus.htm

Quite interesting links.

I strongly agree with these:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm
http://members.aol.com/JAlw/trinity_forgery.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/1716/errors.html
http://www.awitness.org/column/forgery_heresy_bible.html


the second I feel can be seen as personal thoughts of the authors. They could very well be true and sound logical, but I think it would be difficult to find verifiable proof.

 

[Keltoi]

20. MARK 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

why is jesus saying The Lord our God is one Lord if you are saying that Jesus and Father are one???

25. EPHESIANS 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

but in this verse , we se that it says Father of All, so it's not just Father of Jesus, but also our father.

26. 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

see where it says invisible, how come then God was visible to people in flesh?

First of all, I didn't say Jesus and God are One, Christ did that.

Secondly, on the issue of God being invisible, I think we would all agree on that point. God is impossible to see. Christ was in the flesh for a certain period of time, and those who were His disciples were well aware of what Christ was....

John 1:1-5, 14, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” Amen

Here John clearly makes reference to the "One and Only" God, yet John doesn't differentiate between Jesus Christ and the One and Only God. This is the key.

 

[snakelegs]

i wonder why other christians don't recieve the same responses as u do?

could it possibly be that the other christians do not tell muslims that their religion is from the devil, that they are practicing shirk, that the prophet was a false prophet and on and on and on?
:?