Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[MuhammadRizan]

salam,

No, not three separate entitites. There is just one entity, one substance, one essence, one being. That one being (by his very nature, just like you have 10 fingers) exists as three persons. But each person is not separate from the one being. Three persons does NOT mean three individuals.

well ur right, may be all this i'am talkin about is because my lack of understanding.

about this finger and hands thing.

Behold! my hand is one,i have three fingers, my fingers is not my hand, and my hand is not my fingers yet we are one and only almighty hand.

yes there is no separate entities but there is different entities in one god(which explain why they're talking with themself! i got it now!)

it's still don't makes God one...isn't it?

 

[Woodrow]

There is nothing in the character of God which prevents him from manifesting himself on earth in fleshly form. And doing so does not make him less of a God. And doing so does not separate him from himself either. If God is omnipresent, surely he can be walking the streets of Jerusalem and sitting on his throne in heaven at the same time.

There is a small problem I do with having with the Concept of Jesus(as) being God(SWT) in human flesh.

The problem with that is that to have been born and to truly be the son of Mary that means that 1/2 of his genetic make up would be from Mary. At one point that genetic material was Part of Mary's Body. So that would mean that his body was not all man/god 50% of his physical make up was pure human and subject to sin etc.

The next possibility would be that his body was man/god formed within the body of Mary with out being any relationship to Mary. Somehow that strikes me as being in violation of the OT prophecies that are alleged to fortell his coming.

 

[Keltoi]

There is a small problem I do with having with the Concept of Jesus(as) being God(SWT) in human flesh.

The problem with that is that to have been born and to truly be the son of Mary that means that 1/2 of his genetic make up would be from Mary. At one point that genetic material was Part of Mary's Body. So that would mean that his body was not all man/god 50% of his physical make up was pure human and subject to sin etc.

The next possibility would be that his body was man/god formed within the body of Mary with out being any relationship to Mary. Somehow that strikes me as being in violation of the OT prophecies that are alleged to fortell his coming.

That is a pretty deep philosophical question, but I'm not fully certain it even matters from a Christian point of view. God is perfection, I think we would all agree on that. Christ, as a manifestation of God in the flesh, was the perfect human being. Was it Christ's fleshly body that was perfect? No, it was His spiritual nature, meaning His perfection and His "sinlessness". Did Christ's earthly form contain Mary's DNA? I suppose there is no way to no the answer for certain, at least not by you and I.

 

[vpb]

There is nothing in the character of God which prevents him from manifesting himself on earth in fleshly form. And doing so does not make him less of a God. And doing so does not separate him from himself either. If God is omnipresent, surely he can be walking the streets of Jerusalem and sitting on his throne in heaven at the same time.

We know Allah az by his names and virtues. And we know that Allah az would never intend to become in a form of human being. cuz this is ungodly (as Dr.zakir naik calls it). I don't mean to offend anyone, but saying that God was in human flesh, is I think the lowest degree that you can put God, it's the degradation that you can do to God. Allah az is free from imperfections and He is High. He does only things which are godly.

 

[Trumble]

And we know that Allah az would never intend to become in a form of human being. cuz this is ungodly (as Dr.zakir naik calls it).

How can you (or indeed Zakir Naik) possibly presume to know what God may or may not intend to do, or what is 'ungodly' or what is not?!

The problem with that is that to have been born and to truly be the son of Mary that means that 1/2 of his genetic make up would be from Mary. At one point that genetic material was Part of Mary's Body. So that would mean that his body was not all man/god 50% of his physical make up was pure human and subject to sin etc.

Why would that be the slightest problem for God?

 

[vpb]

How can you (or indeed Zakir Naik) possibly presume to know what God may or may not intend to do, or what is 'ungodly' or what is not?!

did u miss the part when we talked about the verses in Qur'an where Allah explains what He would not do, since they are bad things (ungodly) and also the Surah Al-Ikhlas talking about the virtues of Allah az.?

 

[vpb]

Here's a good article, including transcript of the video from dr.zakir naik:

The Concept Of God In Islam The most concise definition of God in Islam is given in the four verses of Surah Ikhlaas which is Chapter 112 of the Qur’an:

«"Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."»

To Muslims, this four line definition of Almighty God serves as the touchstone of the study of God. Any candidate to divinity must be subjected to this ‘acid test' and since the attributes of The Creator given in this chapter are unique, false gods and pretenders to divinity can be easily dismissed using these verses.

i) The first criterion is «"Say, He is Allah, one and only". »
Can there be more than one god? This verse tells us that The Creator is the only one who has total and absolute power, unique in His names and attributes.

ii) The second criterion is, «'Allah is absolute and eternal’»
The word that is translated as “The Eternal, Absolute” from Arabic is something that can be attributed only to The Creator, as all other existence being temporal or conditional. It also means that Allah is not dependant on any person or thing, but all persons and things are dependant on Him.

iii) The third criterion is «‘He begets not, nor is He begotten’».
This means God was not born, nor does He give birth and share his divinity with others. Nor does He have a family or relationship with another being.

(iv) The fourth test, - which is the most stringent - is, «"There is none like unto Him".»
The moment you can imagine or compare ‘God’ to anything, then he (the candidate to divinity) is not God. It is not possible to conjure up a mental picture of the One True God because of the simple fact, as creation, we only know creation.

Many are tempted to make anthropomorphic comparisons of God. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger, the famous body builder and Hollywood actor, who won the title of ‘Mr. Universe - the strongest man in the world.'
Suppose someone says “Almighty God is a thousand times stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger.” This is a false claim to make because the moment you can compare any entity to God, whether the comparison is to Schwarzenegger or to King Kong, whether it is a thousand times or a million times stronger, it fails the Qur’anic criterion, «"There is none like unto Him".»

Thus, the ‘acid test’ cannot be passed by anyone except the One True God. The following verse of the Glorious Qur’an conveys a similar message: «"No vision can grasp Him but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."»[Al-Qur’an 6:103]


By what name do we call God?

The Muslims prefer calling the Supreme Creator, 'Allah', instead of the English word ‘God’. The Arabic word, ‘Allah’, is pure and unique, unlike the English word ‘God’, which can be played around with.

For example, If you add ‘s’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Gods’, that is the plural of God. Allah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah. If you add ‘dess’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Goddess’ that is a female God. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah has no gender. If you add the word ‘father’ to ‘God’ it becomes ‘God-father’. God-father means someone who is a guardian. There is no word like ‘Allah-father’. If you add the word ‘mother’ to ‘God’, it becomes ‘God-mother’. There is nothing like ‘Allah-mother’ in Islam.
Allah is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. Therefore the Muslims prefer using the Arabic word ‘Allah’ for the Almighty.


Unity of God.

Some say that the existence of more than one God is not illogical. Let us point out to them that if there were more than one God, they would dispute with one another, each god trying to fulfill his will against the will of the other gods. This can be seen in the mythology of the polytheistic and pantheistic religions.
If a ‘God’ is defeated or unable to defeat the others, he is surely not the one true God. Also popular among polytheistic religions is the idea of many Gods, each having different responsibilities. Each one would be responsible for a part of man’s existence e.g. a Sun-God, a Rain-God, etc. This indicates that one ‘God’ is incompetent of certain acts and moreover he is also ignorant of the other Gods’ powers, duties, functions and responsibilities. There cannot be an ignorant and incapable God. If there were more than one God it would surely lead to confusion, disorder, chaos and destruction in the universe. But the universe is in complete harmony. The Glorious Qur’an says: «"If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! But glory to Allah, The Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!" »[Al-Qur’an 21:22]

If there were more than one God, they would have taken away what they created. The Qur’an says: «"No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free)from the (sort of) things yhey attribute to Him!" »[Al-Qur’an 23:91]
Thus the existence of one True, Unique, Supreme, Almighty God, is the only logical concept of God.


God does not take human form:

Many religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human. Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.

Suppose I manufacture a video cassette recorder (VCR). Do I have to become a VCR to know what is good or what is bad for the VCR? What do I do? I write an instruction manual. "In order to watch a video cassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast forward press the FF button. Do not drop it from a height or it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water or it will get ruined". This instruction manual lists the various do’s and don’ts for the machine.

Similarly, our Lord and Creator, Allah need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual. The last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Glorious Qur’an. The ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ for the human beings are mentioned in the Qur’an.
If you allow me to compare human beings with machines, I would say humans are more complicated than the most complex machines in the world. Even the most advanced computers, which are extremely complex, are pale in comparison to the physical, psychological, genetic and social factors that affect individual and collective human life.
The more advanced the machine, greater is the need for its instruction manual. By the same logic, don’t human beings require an instruction manual by which to govern their own lives?

Therefore Allah does not come down personally for giving the instruction manual. He chooses a man amongst men to deliver the message and communicates with him at a higher level through the medium of revelations. Such chosen men are called messengers and prophets of God.


God does not perform ungodly acts:

The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"Allah is never unjust in the least degree."»[Al-Qur’an 4:40] God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.


God does not make mistakes

God can make mistakes if He wants to, but He does not make mistakes because making a mistake is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs."»[Holy Qur’an 20:52] The moment God makes a mistake, he ceases to be God.


God does not forget

God can forget if He wants to. But God does not forget anything because forgetting is an ungodly act, which reeks of human limitations and failings. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs, nor forgets."»[Al-Qur’an 20:52]


God only performs Godly acts:

The Islamic concept of God is that God has power over all things. The Qur’an says in several places (Al -Qur’an 2:106; 2:109; 2:284; 3:29; 16:77; and 35:1): «"For verily Allah has power over all things"»
Further, the Glorious Qur’an says:«"Allah is the doer of all that He intends."»[Al-Qur’an 85:16] We must keep in mind that Allah intends only Godly acts and not ungodly acts.


Attributes of God:

To Allah belong the most beautiful names. The Qur’an says: «"Say: Call upon Allah, or Call upon Rahman (The Most Merciful): By whatever name you call Upon Him, (it is well): For to Him belong The Most Beautiful Names."[»Al-Qur’an 17:110]
A similar message regarding the beautiful names of Allah is repeated in the Qur’an in Surah Al-A’raf (7:180), in Surah Taha (20:8) and in Surah Al-Hashr (59:24).
The Qur’an gives no less than ninety-nine different attributes to Almighty Allah. The Qur’an refers to Allah as Ar-Rahman (Most Gracious), Ar-Raheem (Most Merciful) and Al-Hakeem (All Wise) among many other names.



Source

 

[noodles]

I haven't really read the early questions asked in this thread and so I don't really know if this question has been asked already.

I'm trying to understand the concept of 3 entities yet one god thoroughly and not just accept it without understanding.

Here are some questions I hope you may be able to answer.

(early on, Grace used "three fingers yet part of the same whole" example to relate how Christians understand God.)
Does this mean if the God (as a whole) is to think of something, all three entities will know it?
Or if God (father) thought of something, is it possible for God(son/HG) to know it?

 

[Keltoi]

I haven't really read the early questions asked in this thread and so I don't really know if this question has been asked already.

I'm trying to understand the concept of 3 entities yet one god thoroughly and not just accept it without understanding.

Here are some questions I hope you may be able to answer.

(early on, Grace used "three fingers yet part of the same whole" example to relate how Christians understand God.)
Does this mean if the God (as a whole) is to think of something, all three entities will know it?
Or if God (father) thought of something, is it possible for God(son/HG) to know it?

I don't assume to know how God "thinks", whether thoughts just pop into His "head" so to speak....that is a little above my pay grade.

A better way to put it would be something like this. God is God, Christ is God, the Holy Spirit is God. God can't exist without God, Christ can't exist without God, and the Holy Spirit can't exist without God. Same thing in reverse. It is God manifesting His will. If that passes for a "thought", then I suppose Christ knew God's thoughts, as Christ's will was God's will.

 

[- Qatada -]

God isn't dependant upon anything or anyone, and everything/everyone is dependant upon Him, the Rich, All Praised.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

I don't assume to know how God "thinks"

Muslims also do not assuming anything about God, what we're talking here is based on what Allah told us about Himself in the Noble Quran. for example...

"Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."

This is the end of the road about Trinity for muslim.

Even we're trying to be more objective or more understanding, Trinity will never make sense to us, to make thing worst Christians also admitting there is no way to explain this, it's beyond us, am i wrong?

are we agree that God is not suppose to create confusion?. especially and ultimately About Himself!!:rollseyes

 

[Keltoi]

Muslims also do not assuming anything about God, what we're talking here is based on what Allah told us about Himself in the Noble Quran. for example...

"Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."

This is the end of the road about Trinity for muslim.

Even we're trying to be more objective or more understanding, Trinity will never make sense to us, to make thing worst Christians also admitting there is no way to explain this, it's beyond us, am i wrong?

are we agree that God is not suppose to create confusion?. especially and ultimately About Himself!!:rollseyes

As I've found many times on this forum, Christians and Muslims do not even agree on the nature of God. Christians have a somewhat different perspective on God than Muslims, and it makes it even more difficult to "explain" things from a Christians perspective.

As for the Qu'ran and Christians, I understand that Muslims do not believe in a Trinity, we've established that many moons ago.

As for explaining the Trinity, that is akin to explaining God, which is never an easy proposition. That is why most Christians are humble about the idea of "explaining" the Trinity or God, we don't pretend to understand God as He understands Himself. Christians have no choice but to refer to the Bible and the NT, just as Muslims have no choice but to refer to the Qu'ran. The Bible, clearly to Christians, points to a triune manifestation of God's Will. It is our duty and calling to acknowledge this. I'm not going to repeat myself constantly attempting to shed light on the Christian perspective of the Trinity, as it has been done time and time again. All Christians can do is share out beliefs and our perspective, if you don't understand it or agree with it, that is unfortunate but not surprising because of your religious view.

 

[Woodrow]

I do believe we are discovering that any debate between Christian and Muslim can only be resolved once it is resolved as to which will be accepted as the truth.

The fact is that as Muslims we will not accept anything as truth unless it comes from the Qur'an.

Christians will not accept it as truth unless it comes from the Bible.

I do not accept the Bible as being true.

You do not accept the Qur'an as being true.

This is not a stumbling block it is an indestructable wall for there to be any mutual agreement as to what the trinity is or isn't.

I doubt if there is any point in even attempting to discuss the trinity unless all participants agree on a single source for proof.

We are trying to describe what an apricot is and you view my source book of information as being the NYC telephone book and I view your source as being the OKC Telephone book. Neither of us sees the other as saying anything true about the trinity.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

As I've found many times on this forum, Christians and Muslims do not even agree on the nature of God. Christians have a somewhat different perspective on God than Muslims, and it makes it even more difficult to "explain" things from a Christians perspective.As for the Qu'ran and Christians, I understand that Muslims do not believe in a Trinity, we've established that many moons ago.

eventhough i'm new here, i also realized that..:-[

As for explaining the Trinity, that is akin to explaining God, which is never an easy proposition. That is why most Christians are humble about the idea of "explaining" the Trinity or God

This is not fair to God because we Should talk about Him with confident, confidence represent strong unshakable faith.

we don't pretend to understand God as He understands Himself.

we don't have to pretend, since God already make clear about Himself(even not fully)in the Holy scripture, i'm assuming in the OT and NT too.

as we know there are various verse in the Quran talking about Christian, some are good, unfortunately some are not.

[002:062] Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[005:069] Those who believe (in the Quran), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[005:082] Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

[002:111] And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

[002:113] The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge bet ween them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

[002:140] Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than God? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from God? but God is not unmindful of what ye do!

[009:030] The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

this is my opinion.

Manmade analogy or method for describing God is unnecessery, if the doctrine is the truth, God Almighty will make it clear without any confusion in His scripture, any chance of misunderstanding or doubt about Himself will be easily to refute.

But since da'wa means 'to invite' i will stop here, because in the end..

[005:018] (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of God, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

Only Allah Himself will decide....i'm merely human spreading His message, inviting people to think.

it's not my attention to offend anyone:-[ y
if i do..plz plz plz forgive me...:-[

:thankyou:

 

[Keltoi]

salam.



eventhough i'm new here, i also realized that..:-[



This is not fair to God because we Should talk about Him with confident, confidence represent strong unshakable faith.



we don't have to pretend, since God already make clear about Himself(even not fully)in the Holy scripture, i'm assuming in the OT and NT too.

as we know there are various verse in the Quran talking about Christian, some are good, unfortunately some are not.

[002:062] Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[005:069] Those who believe (in the Quran), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[005:082] Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

[002:111] And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

[002:113] The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge bet ween them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

[002:140] Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than God? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from God? but God is not unmindful of what ye do!

[009:030] The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

this is my opinion.

Manmade analogy or method for describing God is unnecessery, if the doctrine is the truth, God Almighty will make it clear without any confusion in His scripture, any chance of misunderstanding or doubt about Himself will be easily to refute.

But since da'wa means 'to invite' i will stop here, because in the end..

[005:018] (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of God, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

Only Allah Himself will decide....i'm merely human spreading His message, inviting people to think.

it's not my attention to offend anyone:-[ y
if i do..plz plz plz forgive me...:-[

:thankyou:

I'm not offended by another faith or those who practice that faith. I'm well aware of the Muslim position on the Trinity, and it doesn't offend me. The only thing that offends me are blatant insults, which you have not engaged in. :thumbs_up

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I haven't really read the early questions asked in this thread and so I don't really know if this question has been asked already.

I'm trying to understand the concept of 3 entities yet one god thoroughly and not just accept it without understanding.

Here are some questions I hope you may be able to answer.

(early on, Grace used "three fingers yet part of the same whole" example to relate how Christians understand God.)
Does this mean if the God (as a whole) is to think of something, all three entities will know it?
Or if God (father) thought of something, is it possible for God(son/HG) to know it?

Yeah I know what you mean, it's so ambiguous with all the different analogies.
One analogy implies that the trinity is like one entity manifested in three different forms. (Like water can be ice, liquid or gas)
Then another analogy suggests that it are three separated independent parts who together form one. (Like three fingers, or united states)

If you ask why Christianity doesn't have monotheism, or how God can have partners you get the first analogy.
If you ask questions like: "Why did Jesus pray if he was God, wouldn't he be talking to himself then?" then you get the second analogy.

But there seems to be no consistency in their view of what it really is, instead they cover it up with the veil of mysticism. To me those two analogies are contradicting.

 

[Grace Seeker]

did u miss the part when we talked about the verses in Qur'an where Allah explains what He would not do, since they are bad things (ungodly) and also the Surah Al-Ikhlas talking about the virtues of Allah az.?

Actually, I did miss them.

Well, I've read the Qur'an, but this is just another point (like the Qur'an's views with regard to Jesus' crucifixion) where I do not find it to give credible testimony. If God created the world and said that it was good, then there is nothing unholy about associating himself with his creation. Indeed, his ultimate goal for us is that we might be joined with him in Paradise. So, I don't see why it would demean God in any way to come to earth and dwell here in the flesh. But then, Christians have a much more intimate connection with God than Muslims do. Perhaps that experience colors the way each of us percieve what is appropriate or inappropriate for God to do. Of course, that raises another question, can any human being even have the audacity to assign them concept of considering the propriety of choices God might make. He tells us to be holy as he is holy, he doesn't say that we are to judge what is and is not holy enough for him to do or not do.

There is a small problem I do with having with the Concept of Jesus(as) being God(SWT) in human flesh.

The problem with that is that to have been born and to truly be the son of Mary that means that 1/2 of his genetic make up would be from Mary. At one point that genetic material was Part of Mary's Body. So that would mean that his body was not all man/god 50% of his physical make up was pure human and subject to sin etc.

The next possibility would be that his body was man/god formed within the body of Mary with out being any relationship to Mary. Somehow that strikes me as being in violation of the OT prophecies that are alleged to fortell his coming.

As far as Woodrow's questions go, the classic Christian answer to those questions has is that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man at the same time. In technical gargon it is called the hypostatic union, another tern you won't find in the Bible, for those who might want to look it up on their own. The basic understanding is that the scriptures present Jesus as one who had two natures that were united into the one person without being comingled. That is Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one person or personality.

As to his genetic make-up, Woodrow, not half of it, but all of it was from Mary, which makes it a miracle that Jesus was a male. Christians and Muslims are agreed that Jesus' human life was a miraculous conception and existence. Yes, Jesus was subject to sin, that is he had the capacity to sin. However having the capactiy to sin and actually sinning are differnt. We hold that Jesus didn't. Allow me to second guess you and project what you might be thinking at the moment, that God could never stoop so low as to subject himself to even the possibility of sin. For me, that is what I find so wonderfully not just incredible, but marvelous about the incarnation. I wish Christians would pick up on that idea more. We celebrate the little bitty baby, missing the whole point that if I guess right as to your objection, that God has taken a gigantic risk in coming to earth. After all, Adam and Eve sinned, and they were created perfect by God. Every human being since Adam and Eve have also sinned. Though Jesus would be born without sin, what was to keep him from making the same mistakes that every other human has and committing a sin. And if he did, what would that mean about God? Well, I can't answer that second question. It is a scary question I admit. But the good news is that he didn't. He submitted his human will completely to God's divine will in how he lived his life. Though we can see expressions of that human will in places like the Garden of Gethsemane.

 

[vpb]

Well, I've read the Qur'an, but this is just another point (like the Qur'an's views with regard to Jesus' crucifixion) where I do not find it to give credible testimony.

Thank you for taking time to read it .

did u read it all??

Indeed, his ultimate goal for us is that we might be joined with him in Paradise.

of course, that's our goal. to win that place

So, I don't see why it would demean God in any way to come to earth and dwell here in the flesh.

Because Allah created us, and He is High from doing such thing, and as the verse in the Qur'an says:

112:4. And there is none like unto Him.

and this is our belief. That Allah swt does only things which are godly. and becoming in human flesh isn't a godly thing. and also Allah doesn't need to come in human flesh to forgive people's sins, or tell them how to live ....

He just sends a men amongst men to do it. and that's why prophets were sent to us, so they got revelation, and since the prophets were humans also, they taught how to behave in our lives and the right way to worship God.

also to mention that majority of scholars by commenting verses and hadiths have come to conclusion that Allah cannot be seen as He is, in this world. It's impossible. But in the afterlife, yes.
inshaAllah we will be one of them who see Him

But then, Christians have a much more intimate connection with God than Muslims do.

sorry but I might have to disagree here with you. Muslims do the 5 daily prayers, and they do those prayers connected directly with God, when we read Qur'an, we read the direct word of God, and if you would had have the chance to see, a muslims whenever he goes to bathroom, eats, drinks, sits, wears shoes, gets in the car.......... says "bismillah (In the name of Allah)" . So every action we do by mentioning Allah's name.
So we have a direct relationship with Allah, we don't have anyone in between.
There are also people (they are very few), who have reached the highest level of faith , as Muhammed saws describes:

see the bold part of text,

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47: Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.
1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.

Perhaps that experience colors the way each of us percieve what is appropriate or inappropriate for God to do.

muslims have the same colors, bc we learn whatever Qur'an and Sunnah teaches us. As you may have seen everything we talk in Islam, has to be backed up by a verse or hadith, otherwise we can say that there is no proof for such belief. So we worship Allah and know about his virtues based on Qur'an and Sunnah.

Of course, that raises another question, can any human being even have the audacity to assign them concept of considering the propriety of choices God might make.

we as muslims, don't assign things to God or talk about his virtues without having proof from Qur'an and sunnah,so, we speak of what we have been taught by Qur'an and the Sunnah.

He tells us to be holy as he is holy, he doesn't say that we are to judge what is and is not holy enough for him to do or not do.

this links to the above point. in Islam is what we have 'The names of Allah'. you have probably encountered .

this is a list of his names,
http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm

so basically these names, tell us about the virtues of Allah swt. and if you know them, you will come to the conclusion that Allah swt doesn't do things which are ungodly. Also there are many many verses in the Qur'an that tell us that what God does and doesn't.

an example:

God does not perform ungodly acts:

The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"Allah is never unjust in the least degree."»[Al-Qur’an 4:40] God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.


God does not make mistakes

God can make mistakes if He wants to, but He does not make mistakes because making a mistake is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs."»[Holy Qur’an 20:52] The moment God makes a mistake, he ceases to be God.


God does not forget

God can forget if He wants to. But God does not forget anything because forgetting is an ungodly act, which reeks of human limitations and failings. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs, nor forgets."»[Al-Qur’an 20:52]

 

[Trumble]

God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God

That makes no sense. Surely God defines justice? Logically the Abrahamic God cannot commit an injustice because doing so would must involve the acceptance that there are standards of justice above and external to God.

 

[vpb]

That makes no sense. Surely God defines justice? Logically the Abrahamic God cannot commit an injustice because doing so would must involve the acceptance that there are standards of justice above and external to God.

I understand, the statement is a little bit tricky.

the statement is a little bit like sarcasm,

God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God

the person is not saying that God can do injustice , he is just saying in a way that God can be unjust if He chooses to be so (like a sarcasm), but basically He is not injust.


to clarify the point:

God does not perform ungodly acts:

The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"Allah is never unjust in the least degree."»[Al-Qur’an 4:40] God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.