Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Redeemed]

Go for it .......

go for what?:muddlehea

 

[Pynthanomai]

Hi all,

First off, I'd just like to thank Grace Seeker for her two PMs that have very helpfully brought me up-to-date with this thread, and the forum in general. Thanks! (I did try to send an acknowledgement from my inbox, but the system says I'm not allowed to.)

With regard to the discussions about the Trinity, and bearing in mind the fact that much of the material pertinent to the discussion has probably already been quoted or otherwise made available, I'll try to present a Christian perspective in as few words as possible. I can make additions later on as required.

The entire matter is easily resolved thus: Is the Trinity proposed by Christians and Christianity as a matter whose validity may rest securely upon the supposition that its proposal to a rational and reasonable human being as being, per se, true and valid, will elicit his or her agreement? If it does, then it is doomed to failure. If it does not - which I contend - then it must be proposed as a matter to be believed by an act of supernatural or religious faith. But if this latter case applies, then appeals to logic and rationality are excluded, a priori, inasmuch as they are utterly contradictory to the very nature of faith itself.

This simple understanding (simple, because someone as obviously unintelligent as I am can understand it easily), once grasped, will demonstrate the futility in supposing that tenets of religious belief may be everted when once their inability to be reduced to logical or scientific fact has been demonstrated. If the contrary were the case, then we may with full assurance as easily demonstrate the invalidity of any of the several doctrines in Islam that rely in any measure upon the support of its adherents' faith.

 

[Keltoi]

Hi all,

First off, I'd just like to thank Grace Seeker for her two PMs that have very helpfully brought me up-to-date with this thread, and the forum in general. Thanks! (I did try to send an acknowledgement from my inbox, but the system says I'm not allowed to.)

With regard to the discussions about the Trinity, and bearing in mind the fact that much of the material pertinent to the discussion has probably already been quoted or otherwise made available, I'll try to present a Christian perspective in as few words as possible. I can make additions later on as required.

The entire matter is easily resolved thus: Is the Trinity proposed by Christians and Christianity as a matter whose validity may rest securely upon the supposition that its proposal to a rational and reasonable human being as being, per se, true and valid, will elicit his or her agreement? If it does, then it is doomed to failure. If it does not - which I contend - then it must be proposed as a matter to be believed by an act of supernatural or religious faith. But if this latter case applies, then appeals to logic and rationality are excluded, a priori, inasmuch as they are utterly contradictory to the very nature of faith itself.

This simple understanding (simple, because someone as obviously unintelligent as I am can understand it easily), once grasped, will demonstrate the futility in supposing that tenets of religious belief may be everted when once their inability to be reduced to logical or scientific fact has been demonstrated. If the contrary were the case, then we may with full assurance as easily demonstrate the invalidity of any of the several doctrines in Islam that rely in any measure upon the support of its adherents' faith.

Grace Seeker is a "he" by the way. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Pynthanomai]

Grace Seeker is a "he" by the way. Welcome to the forum.

Oops!! :-[ My sincerest apologies, Grace Seeker. I think I was subconsciously thinking of Grace as a female name, since I knew a girl by that name at school. Thank you, Keltoi, for your welcome (and you too for yours, Grace Seeker, via PM). I hope my inauspicious start doesn't overshadow my tenure here.

 

[Muslim Woman]

[FONT=&quot]With the name of ALLAH (God Almigthy) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful[/FONT]



Salaam/peace;

... The Hindu religion believes in monotheistic poloytheism we don't.

no offence , pl. but if Hindu's Trinity is monotheistic polytheism , why Christian's Trinity is not ????

I believe their gods exist.

mg:


gods exist ????????? how ?? mg:

They are very real spiritual demonic forces.

can u explain this comment ?

They even get benefits worshipping

we believe , disbelievers will receive God's mercy in this world only .... for their all good deeds , they will be rewarded here .....NOT in the life hereafter.


[FONT=&quot] verses for this life & the life hereafter [/FONT]

And the earth - We have spread it out wide, and placed on it mountains firm, and caused [life] of every kind to grow on it in a balanced manner, and provided thereon means of livelihood for you as well as for all [living beings] whose sustenance does not depend on you.

-Quran (15:19-20)

 

[vpb]

Think About It !!!!!!!!!!

why?

 

[Balthasar21]

why?

If you don't know why then O Well .

 

[MustafaMc]

Welcome to the forum.

The entire matter is easily resolved thus: Is the Trinity proposed by Christians and Christianity as a matter whose validity may rest securely upon the supposition that its proposal to a rational and reasonable human being as being, per se, true and valid, will elicit his or her agreement? If it does, then it is doomed to failure. If it does not - which I contend - then it must be proposed as a matter to be believed by an act of supernatural or religious faith. But if this latter case applies, then appeals to logic and rationality are excluded, a priori, inasmuch as they are utterly contradictory to the very nature of faith itself.

This is quite complicated, but I think I understand. If I may reiterate - belief in Trinity is a belief, or article of faith, that can't be logically proven to a non-believer. It seems you are also saying that faith is contradictory to rational thought. To this I would have to say yes and no. The belief in a ressurection of our bodies (as I believe) after we are dead and our bodies have decayed to the elements does not reduce itself to a logical explanation. However, the belief in a Higher Power Who created all that exists is not an illogical belief for a thinking being to arrive at. Knowledge of the complexity of a single unicellular organism convinces one that even that organism couldn't happen by chance - much less a complicated organism such as humans. Although I have never seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted God, I am convinced through logic that He exists.

This simple understanding (simple, because someone as obviously unintelligent as I am can understand it easily), once grasped, will demonstrate the futility in supposing that tenets of religious belief may be everted when once their inability to be reduced to logical or scientific fact has been demonstrated. If the contrary were the case, then we may with full assurance as easily demonstrate the invalidity of any of the several doctrines in Islam that rely in any measure upon the support of its adherents' faith.

Yes, their are articles of faith in Islam that can't be proven. The foundation of our faith is belief in One God (Allah) and that the Quran is the literal Word of Allah. We believe that what the Quran says about the unseen is absolutely true. We also have the authentic hadith (recorded sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad) that help to elucidate some beliefs and to show how we are to implement Allah's Will for our lives. Of course, Christians reject the Quran as the Word of God and they reject Muhammad as a prophet and messenger of God.

The foundation of Christianity is belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that Jesus is the Son of God yet at the same time fully God. Although Muslims believe in other Holy Books or scriptures that were revealed to mankind through various prophets, we believe that all except the Quran have been tampered with and don't presently exist in their original form. We do believe that the Bible contains fragments of the original messages and that they can be identifed by being consistent with the "gold standard" of the Quran. We accept some of the "red-letter" quotes in the 4 gospels that are attributed to Jesus, but I am sure that you will readily admit that even these are not verbatim quotes because there are differences in the wording between the gospels. Even the Lord's Prayer is not exactly the same in the gospels that quote it.

The most fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam is belief or not in the divinity of Jesus. Although the Holy Spirit is also a part of the Trinity concept it is a less well defined aspect that does not enter into discussions about Trinity. The central element of Christianity is Jesus being God's only begotten Son and him dying on the cross to redeem mankind from its sin. I have shown previously how my understanding of Allah is the same as that of God the Father except that use of the term "Father" implies acceptance of Jesus being the Son of God (to be a father one must have offspring) and it implies acceptance of the Trinity concept (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) - which I absolutely reject. I equate Allah with Father only because that is the term that Jesus is quoted as having used in reference to the One God, such as the Lord's Prayer and his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Christians see acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God and his dying on the cross as the ONLY means of achieving salvation from the Hellfire. Muslims see that the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and at the same time fully God as the major sin of ascribing partners with the One God. Muslims see belief in the absolute Oneness of Allah and following the Sunnah (hadith and verbal traditions) of Muhammad as the means to achieve salvation. Although Christians see that Muslims are trying to EARN their salvation through prayer, fasting, charity and other good deeds, we see that we rely upon the Mercy of Allah to forgive us of our sins and none will claim that he deserves Heaven. We strive to be obedient servants of Allah by following the example of Muhammad yet no Muslim will claim that he is "saved" and knows that he has a reserved spot in Heaven. We have the hope, with full expectation of being granted, forgiveness of our sins, but we realize that the final Judgement is for Allah to make for Allah knows us better than we know ourselves. Our innermost intentions determine the merit of a deed.

 

[Redeemed]

Welcome to the forum.
This is quite complicated, but I think I understand. If I may reiterate - belief in Trinity is a belief, or article of faith, that can't be logically proven to a non-believer. It seems you are also saying that faith is contradictory to rational thought. To this I would have to say yes and no. The belief in a ressurection of our bodies (as I believe) after we are dead and our bodies have decayed to the elements does not reduce itself to a logical explanation. However, the belief in a Higher Power Who created all that exists is not an illogical belief for a thinking being to arrive at. Knowledge of the complexity of a single unicellular organism convinces one that even that organism couldn't happen by chance - much less a complicated organism such as humans. Although I have never seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted God, I am convinced through logic that He exists.

Yes, their are articles of faith in Islam that can't be proven. The foundation of our faith is belief in One God (Allah) and that the Quran is the literal Word of Allah. We believe that what the Quran says about the unseen is absolutely true. We also have the authentic hadith (recorded sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad) that help to elucidate some beliefs and to show how we are to implement Allah's Will for our lives. Of course, Christians reject the Quran as the Word of God and they reject Muhammad as a prophet and messenger of God.

The foundation of Christianity is belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that Jesus is the Son of God yet at the same time fully God. Although Muslims believe in other Holy Books or scriptures that were revealed to mankind through various prophets, we believe that all except the Quran have been tampered with and don't presently exist in their original form. We do believe that the Bible contains fragments of the original messages and that they can be identifed by being consistent with the "gold standard" of the Quran. We accept some of the "red-letter" quotes in the 4 gospels that are attributed to Jesus, but I am sure that you will readily admit that even these are not verbatim quotes because there are differences in the wording between the gospels. Even the Lord's Prayer is not exactly the same in the gospels that quote it.

The most fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam is belief or not in the divinity of Jesus. Although the Holy Spirit is also a part of the Trinity concept it is a less well defined aspect that does not enter into discussions about Trinity. The central element of Christianity is Jesus being God's only begotten Son and him dying on the cross to redeem mankind from its sin. I have shown previously how my understanding of Allah is the same as that of God the Father except that use of the term "Father" implies acceptance of Jesus being the Son of God (to be a father one must have offspring) and it implies acceptance of the Trinity concept (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) - which I absolutely reject. I equate Allah with Father only because that is the term that Jesus is quoted as having used in reference to the One God, such as the Lord's Prayer and his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Christians see acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God and his dying on the cross as the ONLY means of achieving salvation from the Hellfire. Muslims see that the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and at the same time fully God as the major sin of ascribing partners with the One God. Muslims see belief in the absolute Oneness of Allah and following the Sunnah (hadith and verbal traditions) of Muhammad as the means to achieve salvation. Although Christians see that Muslims are trying to EARN their salvation through prayer, fasting, charity and other good deeds, we see that we rely upon the Mercy of Allah to forgive us of our sins and none will claim that he deserves Heaven. We strive to be obedient servants of Allah by following the example of Muhammad yet no Muslim will claim that he is "saved" and knows that he has a reserved spot in Heaven. We have the hope, with full expectation of being granted, forgiveness of our sins, but we realize that the final Judgement is for Allah to make for Allah knows us better than we know ourselves. Our innermost intentions determine the merit of a deed.

Wow, that was an excellent synopsis of our discussions on this forum. There are just a few things I would like to clarify about what we believe as a Christian. First of all we don’t believe that we deserve eternal life like you implied; in fact, just the opposite is the case. The reason we are sure of our salvation is because we believe by faith what God said. I don’t know if all share my view, but the trinity shouldn’t and can’t be describe in the limits of time and space has we know it, because those things are a creation of God that place us in a finite dimension. I only accept what the Bible says and reveals. Jesus is the word of God made human. That is why we believe he is a man, but since he is also the word of God, he is also divine. With us that is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Muslims, in this area, put a limited on what God can do due to the teachings of Islam, and that is one reason we reject Muhammad as being God’s anointed prophet. I also believe that God is a Spirit and no one has seen The Spirit of God, because he is a Spirit. God is also holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. If God calls Jesus His son, I just simply with child like faith accept it. Since God is the creator of families and created us in his image and likeness, it is not a hard concept to grasp. Muslims also misrepresent Christianity by saying we are polytheistic when the truth is the only one area we agree is that God is one. Muslims won’t even let us agree with them on this very important issue, but; nevertheless, we love them and hope they come to the knowledge of truth.

 

[Redeemed]

Hi all,

First off, I'd just like to thank Grace Seeker for her two PMs that have very helpfully brought me up-to-date with this thread, and the forum in general. Thanks! (I did try to send an acknowledgement from my inbox, but the system says I'm not allowed to.)

With regard to the discussions about the Trinity, and bearing in mind the fact that much of the material pertinent to the discussion has probably already been quoted or otherwise made available, I'll try to present a Christian perspective in as few words as possible. I can make additions later on as required.

The entire matter is easily resolved thus: Is the Trinity proposed by Christians and Christianity as a matter whose validity may rest securely upon the supposition that its proposal to a rational and reasonable human being as being, per se, true and valid, will elicit his or her agreement? If it does, then it is doomed to failure. If it does not - which I contend - then it must be proposed as a matter to be believed by an act of supernatural or religious faith. But if this latter case applies, then appeals to logic and rationality are excluded, a priori, inasmuch as they are utterly contradictory to the very nature of faith itself.

This simple understanding (simple, because someone as obviously unintelligent as I am can understand it easily), once grasped, will demonstrate the futility in supposing that tenets of religious belief may be everted when once their inability to be reduced to logical or scientific fact has been demonstrated. If the contrary were the case, then we may with full assurance as easily demonstrate the invalidity of any of the several doctrines in Islam that rely in any measure upon the support of its adherents' faith.

Welcome to the forum. Don't feel bad. I thought Grace Seeker was female too, because of the name. By the way, I understood your write up, but can U simplify your comments, because I had to read it several times to understand your point. Your point was simply that spiritual things such as our faith and God's mysteries don't always mesh with logic and reasoning which is true.

 

[MustafaMc]

Wow, that was an excellent synopsis of our discussions on this forum. There are just a few things I would like to clarify about what we believe as a Christian. First of all we don’t believe that we deserve eternal life like you implied; in fact, just the opposite is the case. The reason we are sure of our salvation is because we believe by faith what God said.

It was not my intention to imply that Christians believe they deserve eternal life. I agree with you that the opposite is true as illustrated by the well knownd song Amazing Grace "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That sav’d a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found,Was blind, but now I see."

I don’t know if all share my view, but the trinity shouldn’t and can’t be describe in the limits of time and space has we know it, because those things are a creation of God that place us in a finite dimension. I only accept what the Bible says and reveals. Jesus is the word of God made human. That is why we believe he is a man, but since he is also the word of God, he is also divine. With us that is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Muslims, in this area, put a limited on what God can do due to the teachings of Islam, and that is one reason we reject Muhammad as being God’s anointed prophet. I also believe that God is a Spirit and no one has seen The Spirit of God, because he is a Spirit. God is also holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. If God calls Jesus His son, I just simply with child like faith accept it. Since God is the creator of families and created us in his image and likeness, it is not a hard concept to grasp. Muslims also misrepresent Christianity by saying we are polytheistic when the truth is the only one area we agree is that God is one. Muslims won’t even let us agree with them on this very important issue, but; nevertheless, we love them and hope they come to the knowledge of truth.

According to Wikipedia - Polytheism

Christianity
The doctrine of Trinity in post-Nicene Christianity is explicitly monotheistic, but still denounced as polytheism in Islam and Unitarianism. Veneration of Saints in folk Christianity, in particular the concept of patron saints "responsible" for a certain aspect of life or society, may in some cases become indistinguishable from polytheism, and indeed in many cases seamlessly continues pre-Christian traditions.


Islam
According to the Qur'an, polytheism (shirk) is the greatest of sins. It is the only sin which will not be forgiven by Allah under any circumstance. Belief in Trinity or worshiping saints and angels is also believed by Muslims to be a form of polytheism.

Muslims are strict monotheists (belief in One God) and Christians believe that they are also monotheists. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet and messenger of God deserving of the highest esteem and respect among humans. Christians elevate Jesus to a higher status of being Son of God and at the same time fully God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit in a concept known as the Trinity. According to the Quran, this is an act of ascribing partners with Allah known as "shirk". We see our rejection of the divinity of Jesus not as putting limitations upon Allah, rather we see it as beneath the Dignity and Majesty of Allah for Him to do such a thing as to be born of a woman and to perform ungodly acts such as eating and drinking with the subsequent relieving oneself of waste. We also believe that Allah is more than a spirit because we believe that the greatest pleasure and blessing of Paradise is being able to see Allah. The Quranic parable of "Light upon Light" is our best description of Allah.

 

[Redeemed]

It was not my intention to imply that Christians believe they deserve eternal life. I agree with you that the opposite is true as illustrated by the well knownd song Amazing Grace "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That sav’d a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found,Was blind, but now I see."

According to Wikipedia - Polytheism

Christianity
The doctrine of Trinity in post-Nicene Christianity is explicitly monotheistic, but still denounced as polytheism in Islam and Unitarianism. Veneration of Saints in folk Christianity, in particular the concept of patron saints "responsible" for a certain aspect of life or society, may in some cases become indistinguishable from polytheism, and indeed in many cases seamlessly continues pre-Christian traditions.


Islam
According to the Qur'an, polytheism (shirk) is the greatest of sins. It is the only sin which will not be forgiven by Allah under any circumstance. Belief in Trinity or worshiping saints and angels is also believed by Muslims to be a form of polytheism.

Muslims are strict monotheists (belief in One God) and Christians believe that they are also monotheists. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet and messenger of God deserving of the highest esteem and respect among humans. Christians elevate Jesus to a higher status of being Son of God and at the same time fully God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit in a concept known as the Trinity. According to the Quran, this is an act of ascribing partners with Allah known as "shirk". We see our rejection of the divinity of Jesus not as putting limitations upon Allah, rather we see it as beneath the Dignity and Majesty of Allah for Him to do such a thing as to be born of a woman and to perform ungodly acts such as eating and drinking with the subsequent relieving oneself of waste. We also believe that Allah is more than a spirit because we believe that the greatest pleasure and blessing of Paradise is being able to see Allah. The Quranic parable of "Light upon Light" is our best description of Allah.

Thank you for that response. You give a very clear and understandable view. We don't consider, however, eating, drinking and going to the bathroom as ungodly acts. God is the one who created us with these functions. It was His plan and design. To call it ungodly is tantamount to saying that it is unlike God to have created us thus; therefore, God is ungodly. What is ungodly is not what goes into a man; it is what comes out of the heart in the forms of lust, greed and pride. You see us ascribing partners with God and we see Muslims doing it as well or even more so, because in order to have a chance at salvation you must become a Muslim and to become Muslim you must say the Shaddah which confesses Muhammad as God's messenger. We do not have to confess any prophet as God's messenger otherwise that would lead to idolatry and or the temptation to make something more out of a mere man and that is all. Even Paul considered himself to be the least and chief of sinners. What is true of Muslims is what Jesus said: "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father." (John 15: 24) You can use the excuse that the Bible has been corrupted to evade Jesus' words and all of Islam will excuse you but will God? Additionally, I didn't say we would never see God, because he is a spirit. We will see God, because we will be like him when this corruptable body puts on the incorruptable one. We can't see him now.
you are loved

 

[MustafaMc]

Thank you for that response. You give a very clear and understandable view. We don't consider, however, eating, drinking and going to the bathroom as ungodly acts. God is the one who created us with these functions. It was His plan and design. To call it ungodly is tantamount to saying that it is unlike God to have created us thus; therefore, God is ungodly. What is ungodly is not what goes into a man; it is what comes out of the heart in the forms of lust, greed and pride.

Being born of a woman is ungodly because it implies a beginnig for Allah Who has always existed. Quran 3:2 Allah! There is no god but Him; the Living, the Eternal.

Eating and drinking is ugodly because it implies Allah has a need for sustenance outside of Himself. Quran 14:8 Musa said: "If you and all the dwellers of the earth become thankless, you should know that He does not stand in need of any of you, surely Allah is the Self-sufficient, Praiseworthy."

Urinating and defecating is ungodly and needs no explanation.

However, as you mentioned these actions are perfectly suited for humans because that is the way we were created. As a human we can assume that Jesus experienced all of these.

Quran 2:255 Ayat-al-Kursi explains the Majesty of Allah.
Allah! There is no god but Him: the Living, the Eternal. He neither slumbers nor sleeps. To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and the Earth. Who can intercede with Him without His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them. They cannot gain access to any thing out of His knowledge except what He pleases. His throne is more vast than the heavens and the earth, and guarding of these both does not fatigue Him. He is the Exalted, the Supreme.

You see us ascribing partners with God and we see Muslims doing it as well or even more so, because in order to have a chance at salvation you must become a Muslim and to become Muslim you must say the Shaddah which confesses Muhammad as God's messenger. We do not have to confess any prophet as God's messenger otherwise that would lead to idolatry and or the temptation to make something more out of a mere man and that is all.

Testifying that Muhammad was the Messenger of Allah is not ascribing partners to Allah. It establishes our relationship to him as our role model for how we are to worship Allah and to otherwise live our lives. Without the acceptance of a guide, we are left to wander about aimlessly, believing and worshiping as we best saw fit.

Even Paul considered himself to be the least and chief of sinners. What is true of Muslims is what Jesus said: "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father." (John 15: 24)

...and verse 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason." Please, tell me a single Muslim who hates Jesus or the Father that Jesus referred to.

You can use the excuse that the Bible has been corrupted to evade Jesus' words and all of Islam will excuse you but will God? Additionally, I didn't say we would never see God, because he is a spirit. We will see God, because we will be like him when this corruptable body puts on the incorruptable one. We can't see him now.

I believe that the nature of Allah is not something for us to comprehend in this life.

 

[Grace Seeker]

MustafaMc,
While you say that Muslims do not call Allah Father, you seem quite willing to say that Jesus actually did called Allah the Father.

I equate Allah with Father only because that is the term that Jesus is quoted as having used in reference to the One God, such as the Lord's Prayer and his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

If the nature of the one God of Jesus and the one God of Islam is the same, and if what Jesus taught was Islam, why would it be that Muslims today would not be in sync with Jesus and would not be alike in either both being willing to call Allah the Father or both NOT referring to Allah in this manner?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Being born of a woman is ungodly because it implies a beginnig for Allah Who has always existed. Quran 3:2 Allah! There is no god but Him; the Living, the Eternal.

Of course, the Christian also believes that God has always existed. I think that sometimes Muslims misunderstand that Christian share this same point of view. I see persons writing like they have disproved the entire concept of the Trinity by saying that if there is a Son then the Father must have come before the Son and if the Son has not always existed then the Son could not be God. From this they then try to imply other ideas that simply are not in accord with the Christian understanding. In fact, as you yourself have noted previously, a more reasonable Islam's objection to the idea of God's "Fatherhood" or God's "Sonship" would be the idea of progeneration. But, again, this is not part of the Christian concept either.

Indeed, we believe that while the Son proceeds from the Father, that it is not by the nature of being "begotten" (though that tern was used in some of the older English editions, it is not the best way to translate the relevant Greek terms in modern day English) or creating "progeny". Rather we simply have an eternal relationship between the persons of the God head. We are using language that speaks metaphorically to us humans.

(A quick stop for defining terms: A similie would be to say that God is like a Father. Use of the words "like" or "as" are the keys to identifying the figure of speech known as a similie. When using figurative language without the use of "like" or "as", that is called a metaphor. So, if God is not a Father to us humans in the literal sence (i.e. we are not the genetic offspring of God), yet we refer to God as our Father, then we are using the term in a figurative manner. Thus to speak of God the Father is to speak using a metaphor.)

Speaking metaphorically of God, if one has an eternal Father, then one also needs to have something/someone which the eternal Father is eternally the Father of. So when we speak of the Son, this too is an eternal Sonship. In other words, there is NOT a point in time in which there was NOT the Son. For as long as there has been God (and remember we agree that God has always existed) there has been eternally both Father and Son. So, while we might speak of the human manifestation of Jesus as being born of woman, that does not imply that there was a beginning for Allah; the Christians understanding is that the Son has always existed just as has the Father. (Oh, though not part of your post, let it be known the Holy Spirit has also always existed, too.)

Eating and drinking is ugodly because it implies Allah has a need for sustenance outside of Himself. Quran 14:8 Musa said: "If you and all the dwellers of the earth become thankless, you should know that He does not stand in need of any of you, surely Allah is the Self-sufficient, Praiseworthy."

And again I will agree that God does not need sustencance outside of himself. When God the Son came to earth, it must be remember that he did not need to come, but he choose to come. Yes, we speak of the Father sending the Son, but not in the way a general sends a private, but more in the way my wife sends me to the store. In other words, together they choose that the Son would come to earth. Now in so doing, God also had a choice as to how he was going to live on earth. Was he going to merely walk around showig himself as a theophany looking like a man, but not really a man? Or would he actually fully take on the form of a man. Though Islam would deny this to be true, from the Christian point of view, based on our Christian scriptures, this latter is exactly what happened.

Christ did NOT empty himself of the form of God (i.e. his diety), but of the manner of existence as an equal to God. (See Philippians 2:6-7.) In the words of J.B. Lightfoot, he did not lay aside his divine attributes, but "the insignia of majesty". So, he did not claim the use of these attributes, even though they were available to him, but lived among us as any other man would -- I think of Mark Twain's story of The Prince and the Pauper as a near perfect illustration -- in dependance on the Father and the Holy Spirit for direction and as the source of power in his life. So, the human Jesus did indeed have to eat, but as Jesus (quoting scripture) himself said, "'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God' " (Mattew 4:4). God was his real sustenance, not bread.

 

[MustafaMc]

MustafaMc,
While you say that Muslims do not call Allah Father, you seem quite willing to say that Jesus actually did called Allah the Father.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I equate Allah with Father only because that is the term that Jesus is quoted as having used in reference to the One God, such as the Lord's Prayer and his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

All one has to do is read any of the gospels to know what Jesus is quoted as having said. I may be completely wrong in equating the two, but it is according to my understanding as an imperfect human.

If the nature of the one God of Jesus and the one God of Islam is the same, and if what Jesus taught was Islam, why would it be that Muslims today would not be in sync with Jesus and would not be alike in either both being willing to call Allah the Father or both NOT referring to Allah in this manner?

I don't have a good answer, but a thought just occured to me, "Is any of Jesus' disciples quoted in the Bible as referring to God as the Father or referring to God at all?"

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't have a good answer, but a thought just occured to me, "Is any of Jesus' disciples quoted in the Bible as referring to God as the Father or referring to God at all?"

OK. But that's something I have thought of a couple of times after you've explained your usage of "Father", so I thought I would ask.


As to your question: Philip says to Jesus, "Show us the Father." Thomas calls Jesus, "My Lord, and my God." And the books of Acts is filled with the disciples referring to God acting in Jesus' life.

 

[Redeemed]

Of course, the Christian also believes that God has always existed. I think that sometimes Muslims misunderstand that Christian share this same point of view. I see persons writing like they have disproved the entire concept of the Trinity by saying that if there is a Son then the Father must have come before the Son and if the Son has not always existed then the Son could not be God. From this they then try to imply other ideas that simply are not in accord with the Christian understanding. In fact, as you yourself have noted previously, a more reasonable Islam's objection to the idea of God's "Fatherhood" or God's "Sonship" would be the idea of progeneration. But, again, this is not part of the Christian concept either.

Indeed, we believe that while the Son proceeds from the Father, that it is not by the nature of being "begotten" (though that tern was used in some of the older English editions, it is not the best way to translate the relevant Greek terms in modern day English) or creating "progeny". Rather we simply have an eternal relationship between the persons of the God head. We are using language that speaks metaphorically to us humans.

(A quick stop for defining terms: A similie would be to say that God is like a Father. Use of the words "like" or "as" are the keys to identifying the figure of speech known as a similie. When using figurative language without the use of "like" or "as", that is called a metaphor. So, if God is not a Father to us humans in the literal sence (i.e. we are not the genetic offspring of God), yet we refer to God as our Father, then we are using the term in a figurative manner. Thus to speak of God the Father is to speak using a metaphor.)

Speaking metaphorically of God, if one has an eternal Father, then one also needs to have something/someone which the eternal Father is eternally the Father of. So when we speak of the Son, this too is an eternal Sonship. In other words, there is NOT a point in time in which there was NOT the Son. For as long as there has been God (and remember we agree that God has always existed) there has been eternally both Father and Son. So, while we might speak of the human manifestation of Jesus as being born of woman, that does not imply that there was a beginning for Allah; the Christians understanding is that the Son has always existed just as has the Father. (Oh, though not part of your post, let it be known the Holy Spirit has also always existed, too.)





And again I will agree that God does not need sustencance outside of himself. When God the Son came to earth, it must be remember that he did not need to come, but he choose to come. Yes, we speak of the Father sending the Son, but not in the way a general sends a private, but more in the way my wife sends me to the store. In other words, together they choose that the Son would come to earth. Now in so doing, God also had a choice as to how he was going to live on earth. Was he going to merely walk around showig himself as a theophany looking like a man, but not really a man? Or would he actually fully take on the form of a man. Though Islam would deny this to be true, from the Christian point of view, based on our Christian scriptures, this latter is exactly what happened.

Christ did NOT empty himself of the form of God (i.e. his diety), but of the manner of existence as an equal to God. (See Philippians 2:6-7.) In the words of J.B. Lightfoot, he did not lay aside his divine attributes, but "the insignia of majesty". So, he did not claim the use of these attributes, even though they were available to him, but lived among us as any other man would -- I think of Mark Twain's story of The Prince and the Pauper as a near perfect illustration -- in dependance on the Father and the Holy Spirit for direction and as the source of power in his life. So, the human Jesus did indeed have to eat, but as Jesus (quoting scripture) himself said, "'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God' " (Mattew 4:4). God was his real sustenance, not bread.

I was thinking of that verse for a couple of hours and I was getting ready to post it, but you beat me to it. "'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God' " (Mattew 4:4). God truly was his real sustenance, because Satan tried to get Jesus to turn the rocks to bread during his fast.

 

[Redeemed]

All one has to do is read any of the gospels to know what Jesus is quoted as having said. I may be completely wrong in equating the two, but it is according to my understanding as an imperfect human.
I don't have a good answer, but a thought just occured to me, "Is any of Jesus' disciples quoted in the Bible as referring to God as the Father or referring to God at all?"

Jesus is the word of God. There was never a time that God was without His word. Therefore, the word is co-eternally with God, and it is written that God exalts His word above his name, but Islam actually does the opposite. Jesus said. "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father." (John 15: 24) If you don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, you dishonor God. That is what is meant by hating both Jesus and his Father. You can't tell me that Muslims do not hate the idea of God loving the world so much that He sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. You are honoring a different Jesus that is not according to knowledge or Scripture. You are not honoring the word of God who is Jesus. That is what might as well be called hate. Therefore, I believe that the Koran is reliable, but we both know that something can be reliably and yet reliably wrong. I appreciate you brother, and I mean not to be disrespectful. I have come to respect Islam in a much deeper way since I have been on this forum. If I lack wisdom in my presentations, I beg God's and your forgiveness on the behalf of all Muslims on this forum. :-[

By the way, Jesus taught his disciples how to pray "Our Father who art in heaven..." He also taught his disciples that whatever you ask the father in my name, He will do it. I ask him (Father) to open your eyes in Jesus' name.

 

[Woodrow]

By the way, Jesus taught his disciples how to pray "Our Father who art in heaven..." He also taught his disciples that whatever you ask the father in my name, He will do it. I ask him (Father) to open your eyes in Jesus' name.

I have always found the Lord's Prayer very interesting. It is one of the few writings that survives in the original Aramaic. Here it is as Jesus would have said it, if He actually did say it.

-- in the original Aramaic --

Abwûn
"Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes,

d'bwaschmâja
who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

Nethkâdasch schmach
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

Têtê malkuthach.
Your Heavenly Domain comes.

Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates)
just as on earth (that is material and dense).

Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna.
Give us bread (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,

Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna
daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên.
detach the ropes of faults that bind us,
like we let go the guilt of others.

Wela tachlân l'nesjuna
Let us not be lost in superficial things (a common temptation),

ela patzân min bischa.
but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act,
the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Amên.
Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
I confirm that with my whole being

Another translation that seems to be a more exact connotation of the Actual Aramaic

Lords Prayer Translated from Aramaic
A Translation of "Our Father" directly from Aramaic into English

O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration. Soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can abide.

Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission.

Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire.

Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to grow and flourish.

Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release others from the entanglement of past mistakes.

Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment.

For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth, power and fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.

the many changes of the "Lord's Prayer"

Evolution of The Lord's Prayer

The Prayer To Our Father in the Original Aramaic

Abwûn O cosmic Birther, from whom the breath of life comes,
d'bwaschmâja who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
Nethkâdasch schmach May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Têtê malkuthach. Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha. Let Your will come true in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna. Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,
Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên. detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Wela tachlân l'nesjuna Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),
ela patzân min bischa. but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.
Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn. From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
Amên. Sealed in trust, faith and truth. (I confirm with my entire being)

The Lord's Prayer in Greek

Matthew's second century mistranslation of the Lord's Prayer in crude Greek, the commonly accepted version of the Lord's Prayer from which all others are translated.

ΠΑΤΕΡ ΗΜΩΝ Ο ΕΝ ΤΟΙΣ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΙΣ
ΑΓΙΑΣΘΗΤΩ ΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ ΣΟΥ (what looks like π, is γι: αγιασθητω)
ΕΛΘΕΤΩ Η ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑ ΣΟΥ
ΓΕΝΗΘΗΤΩ ΤΟ ΘΕΛΗΜΑ ΣΟΥ,
ΩΣ ΕΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΩ ΚΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ ΓΗΣ
ΤΟΝ ΑΡΤΟΝ ΗΜΩΝ ΤΟΝ ΕΠΙΟΥΣΙΟΝ
ΔΟΣ ΗΜΙΝ ΣΗΜΕΡΟΝ
ΚΑΙ ΑΦΕΣ ΗΜΙΝ ΤΑ ΟΦΕΙΛΗΜΑΤΑ ΗΜΩΝ,
ΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΗΜΕΙΣ ΑΦΙΕΜΕΝ ΤΟΙΣ ΟΦΕΙΛΕΤΑΙΣ ΗΜΩΝ
ΚΑΙ ΜΗ ΕΙΣΕΝΕΓΚΗΣ ΗΜΑΣ ΕΙΣ ΠΕΙΡΑΣΜΟΝ,
ΑΛΛΑ ΡΥΣΑΙ ΗΜΑΣ ΑΠΟ ΤΟΥ ΠΟΝΗΡΟΥ.
ΑΜΗΝ.

Transliteration:

Pater hêmôn ho en toes ouranoes;
hagiasthêtô to onoma sou;
elthetô hê basileia sou;
genêthêtô to thelêma sou,
hôs en ouranô, kae epi tês gês.
ton arton hêmôn ton epiousion dos hêmin sêmeron;
kae aphes hêmin ta opheilêmata hêmôn,
hôs kae hêmeis aphiemen toes opheiletaes hêmôn;
kae mê eisenenkês hêmas eis peirasmon,
alla rhysae hêmas apo tou ponerou.
hoti sou estin hê basileia kae hê dynamis kae hê doxa eis tous aeônas;
amên.


The 'Pater Noster' in Latin:

Prior to the Protestant Reformation, the Our Father was universally recited in Latin by clergy and laity alike. Hence it was then most commonly known as the Pater Noster. The rather curious English translation we have today is due to Henry VIII's efforts to impose a standard English version.

Pater Noster, qui es in caelis,
Sanctificetur nomen tuum.
Adveniat regnum tuum,
Fiat voluntas tua,
sicut in caelo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie,
Et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.
Et ne nos inducas in tentationem,
Sed libera nos a malo.
Amen.

The Lord's Prayer Old English (c. 450-1100)

This version of the Lord's Prayer probably isn't recognizable by the majority of modern English speakers. 1000 AD is before the Norman invasion of England and therefore many of the words in Modern English that were taken from French are not yet present in the Language.

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum si þin nama gehalgod tobecume þin rice gewurþe þin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us to dæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice.

The Lord's Prayer Dated 1384 AD

Most modern English speakers should be able to understand some of this version of the Lord's Prayer when written. Spoken it would sound a great deal different; for instance, ou is pronounced like oo and in general the vowels have their continental value (oorra fahderr thut arrt in ai(r)venas ulwid bai(r) thee nahma, with trilled rr). Note the use of the letter þ, this has essentially the same value as "th" in modern English.

Oure fadir þat art in heuenes halwid be þi name;
þi reume or kyngdom come to be.
Be þi wille don in herþe as it is doun in heuene.
yeue to us today oure eche dayes bred.
And foryeue to us oure dettis þat is oure synnys as we foryeuen to oure dettouris þat is to men þat han synned in us.
And lede us not into temptacion but delyuere us from euyl.

The Lord's Prayer Dated 1611 AD (King James Bible)

Most modern English speakers should be able to understand this version of the Lord's Prayer. Note the use of u in place of v. It is not until fairly recently that u an v have been considered separate letters.

Our father which art in heauen,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen.
Giue us this day our daily bread.
And forgiue us our debts as we forgiue our debters.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliuer us from euill.
Amen.

The Lord's Prayer Dated (1700-)

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The New Testament in Modern English (1963, tr. Phillips)

According to the New Testament, the Lord's Prayer is the name given to the only form of prayer Christ taught his disciples (Matt. 6:9-13). The closing doxology of the prayer is omitted by Luke (11:2-4), also in the R.V. of Matt. 6:13. This prayer contains no allusion to the atonement of Christ, nor to the offices of the Holy Spirit. All Christian prayer is based on the Lord's Prayer, but is also guided by that of His prayer in Gethsemane and of the prayer recorded by John 17. The Lord's Prayer is now comprehensive, the simplest and most universal form of prayer.

Our Heavenly Father, may your name be honored;
May your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day the bread we need,
Forgive us what we owe to you, as we have also forgiven those who owe anything to us.
Keep us clear of temptation, and save us from evil.

In Luke's far simpler version, 11. 2-4 NIV, it has become:

"'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.'

Nazarene Transliteration of the Lord's Prayer
Sound Bite in the Ancient Aramaic language

Avvon d-bish-maiya, nith-qaddash shim-mukh.

Tih-teh mal-chootukh. Nih-weh çiw-yanukh:

ei-chana d'bish-maiya: ap b'ar-ah.

Haw lan lakh-ma d'soonqa-nan yoo-mana.

O'shwooq lan kho-bein:

ei-chana d'ap kh'nan shwiq-qan l'khaya-ween.

Oo'la te-ellan l'niss-yoona:
il-la paç-çan min beesha.

Mid-til de-di-lukh hai mal-choota
oo khai-la oo tush-bookh-ta
l'alam al-mein.

Aa-meen.


Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), but let us be freed from that what keeps us from our true purpose.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)

Source: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm