Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Redeemed]

I have always found the Lord's Prayer very interesting. It is one of the few writings that survives in the original Aramaic. Here it is as Jesus would have said it, if He actually did say it.




Another translation that seems to be a more exact connotation of the Actual Aramaic




the many changes of the "Lord's Prayer"



Source: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

I have no problem praying a prayer like that. The fact that it doesn't mention Father doesn't mean that Jesus never considered himself God's son!

 

[Pynthanomai]

Welcome to the forum.
This is quite complicated, but I think I understand. If I may reiterate - belief in Trinity is a belief, or article of faith, that can't be logically proven to a non-believer. It seems you are also saying that faith is contradictory to rational thought. To this I would have to say yes and no. The belief in a ressurection of our bodies (as I believe) after we are dead and our bodies have decayed to the elements does not reduce itself to a logical explanation. However, the belief in a Higher Power Who created all that exists is not an illogical belief for a thinking being to arrive at. Knowledge of the complexity of a single unicellular organism convinces one that even that organism couldn't happen by chance - much less a complicated organism such as humans. Although I have never seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted God, I am convinced through logic that He exists.

Yes, their are articles of faith in Islam that can't be proven. The foundation of our faith is belief in One God (Allah) and that the Quran is the literal Word of Allah. We believe that what the Quran says about the unseen is absolutely true. We also have the authentic hadith (recorded sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad) that help to elucidate some beliefs and to show how we are to implement Allah's Will for our lives. Of course, Christians reject the Quran as the Word of God and they reject Muhammad as a prophet and messenger of God.

The foundation of Christianity is belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that Jesus is the Son of God yet at the same time fully God. Although Muslims believe in other Holy Books or scriptures that were revealed to mankind through various prophets, we believe that all except the Quran have been tampered with and don't presently exist in their original form. We do believe that the Bible contains fragments of the original messages and that they can be identifed by being consistent with the "gold standard" of the Quran. We accept some of the "red-letter" quotes in the 4 gospels that are attributed to Jesus, but I am sure that you will readily admit that even these are not verbatim quotes because there are differences in the wording between the gospels. Even the Lord's Prayer is not exactly the same in the gospels that quote it.

The most fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam is belief or not in the divinity of Jesus. Although the Holy Spirit is also a part of the Trinity concept it is a less well defined aspect that does not enter into discussions about Trinity. The central element of Christianity is Jesus being God's only begotten Son and him dying on the cross to redeem mankind from its sin. I have shown previously how my understanding of Allah is the same as that of God the Father except that use of the term "Father" implies acceptance of Jesus being the Son of God (to be a father one must have offspring) and it implies acceptance of the Trinity concept (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) - which I absolutely reject. I equate Allah with Father only because that is the term that Jesus is quoted as having used in reference to the One God, such as the Lord's Prayer and his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Christians see acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God and his dying on the cross as the ONLY means of achieving salvation from the Hellfire. Muslims see that the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and at the same time fully God as the major sin of ascribing partners with the One God. Muslims see belief in the absolute Oneness of Allah and following the Sunnah (hadith and verbal traditions) of Muhammad as the means to achieve salvation. Although Christians see that Muslims are trying to EARN their salvation through prayer, fasting, charity and other good deeds, we see that we rely upon the Mercy of Allah to forgive us of our sins and none will claim that he deserves Heaven. We strive to be obedient servants of Allah by following the example of Muhammad yet no Muslim will claim that he is "saved" and knows that he has a reserved spot in Heaven. We have the hope, with full expectation of being granted, forgiveness of our sins, but we realize that the final Judgement is for Allah to make for Allah knows us better than we know ourselves. Our innermost intentions determine the merit of a deed.

Hi MustafaMc,

Thanks for your well-written and considerate reply. I appreciate your input on this very interesting subject.

With regard to your comments on faith and its compatibility with rationality or logic, I consider my point to remain valid. Faith is defined in contradistinction to the acceptance of a fact upon the basis of its being rational or logical. At any point where a full scientific explanation is possible, faith is simply not necessary; and where faith does become necessary, even if it seems that much of the issue at hand can be resolved scientifically, its very presence still indicates that the issue cannot be resolved in its entirety upon a rational basis. Therefore it becomes a matter of faith, as is the case with your example of belief in God. (Unless, of course, you wish to provide the material, or reference to the material, showing a complete and accepted scientific justification for the existence of God that does not once require the reader to take any point upon pure faith - which I'm not denying you may be perfectly able to do; I just wanted to make my point clear.)

For the other points you highlight in your posting, I have very little to say, because I'm only a novice in terms of my knowledge about Islam and its tenets. There are, however, a few things I could say about Christianity. Yes, I agree that the differences among the gospels, and the very nature of the preservation of ancient written texts necessitates some degree of corruption or alteration of the material; yet I would be very far from agreeing, were I asked, that this has been to the extent where the veracity or authenticity of the texts or their contents were open to dispute, or that any matters of any importance in the Christian religion were threatened thereby. But I better not head off-topic.

I also agree wholeheartedly with you in placing the principal difference between Islam and Christianity as consisting in the several beliefs held about Jesus Christ. Indeed, what could be of greater consideration in matters of religious belief than that some say, "Jesus is God" and others, "Jesus is not God"?

Thanks again for your time and input. I have enjoyed reading your and others' posts, and hope that I can continue to add my two cents' worth.

 

[Balthasar21]

I have always found the Lord's Prayer very interesting. It is one of the few writings that survives in the original Aramaic. Here it is as Jesus would have said it, if He actually did say it.




Another translation that seems to be a more exact connotation of the Actual Aramaic




the many changes of the "Lord's Prayer"



Source: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

Very yyyyyyyyyyy good answer I have forgotten all about the lord prayer .
But question now is who was he praying too. The Christians have this Habit of making thing up , Just his name . They call him Jesus / Jehovah / Jehovah - jireh / Jehovah - rophe / Jehovah - nissi / Jehovah - M'Kaddesh / Jehovah -shalom / Jehovah -tsidkenu / Jehovah -rohi / Jehovah - shammah / They are no '' J's '' In tHE Aamic language , When one knows his Name Yashu'a

 

[Pynthanomai]

Welcome to the forum. Don't feel bad. I thought Grace Seeker was female too, because of the name. By the way, I understood your write up, but can U simplify your comments, because I had to read it several times to understand your point. Your point was simply that spiritual things such as our faith and God's mysteries don't always mesh with logic and reasoning which is true.

Hello alapiana1,

I don't know how easily I could "simplify" what I posted - since I'd tried to be as "simple" as I could when I first typed it! But it's clear that you understood what I was attempting to say. Is there any specific point you'd like me to go into further detail about?

 

[Redeemed]

Hello alapiana1,

I don't know how easily I could "simplify" what I posted - since I'd tried to be as "simple" as I could when I first typed it! But it's clear that you understood what I was attempting to say. Is there any specific point you'd like me to go into further detail about?

No, that is quite alright. I guess it is just your style of writing. I'll have to learn some more vocabulary. It is just that you made it sound like you could settle the problem or explain the concept of the trinity when I don't think anyone can. Your words were "The entire matter is easily resolved thus..."

 

[Grace Seeker]

I have always found the Lord's Prayer very interesting. It is one of the few writings that survives in the original Aramaic. Here it is as Jesus would have said it, if He actually did say it.

Source: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

No doubt that Jesus would have originally taught the prayer to his disciples in Aramaic. My question is how can we know what form it was originally in unless we actually have an original copy of it in Aramaic? Isn't the best we can do is to try to reconstruct what the Aramaic version might have been? It would have to be based on the oldest texts of it that we have, which happen to be in Greek, translate them back into Aramaic (though recognizing that our re-translation probably is not identical to the original form), and then edit it based on any other similar prayers from the same time period that we can find that still exist in Aramaic.

Thus I think what you are able to produce by this method is "a" prayer that might be similar to what Jesus would have prayed with his disciples, but it certainly isn't going to be "the" authentic or genuine prayer that they prayed.

While the version you have provided is interesting, there are some aspects that I seriously question. For instance, for the Aramaic version you have presented to be even close to authentic, that would mean that when writing the prayer, that Matthew had to have intentionally changed the Aramaic Abwûn (O cosmic Birther, from whom the breath of life comes,) to the Greek πατερ ημων (pater heemon) or "our father". This seems quite a stretch, even for redactive criticism.

Now, the way a child would address his father in Aramaic was "abba" and we know that Jesus used this word. The possessive plural of abba is 'abınu. Is Abwûn a form of 'abınu? Either way, we still have Jesus teaching his disciples to pray not to a distant "cosmic birther", but to one who is so close and personal that one uses the language of a child. If you want a more connotatively literal translation of this prayer, we are actually taught to pray to God as "our daddy".

I'm also confused that the author of the website would include the last line:
Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn which he translates as: "From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age."

One of my problems with its inclusion is that, this seems to be a line that corresponds to the doxological ending of the Lord's Prayer, which, just as the author himself pointed out, "The doxology (For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen) was not present in the original version of the prayer, but rather was added to the Gospels as a result of its use in the liturgy of the early church." So, if it was not present in the original version of the prayer, but was a later adaptation, how could it be present "in the original Aramaic"? A short answer, it couldn't.

This "original" Aramaic rendition of the prayer is not an original copy of the prayer, it is a copy of the prayer re-translated back into the original language. It is nice to hear it in the language that Jesus would have spoken it in, but we do NOT have any new scholarship here in terms of interpreting the prayer.


Lastly. The website you quotes translates late Amên. as "Sealed in trust, faith and truth. (I confirm with my entire being)". Amên., "Amin.", "Amen." -- this is one word that is the same in every langauge in the world. It is indeed a confirmation or affirmation of what has been previously said. I understand it to be literally translateable as "so be it". I am sure that there are other acceptable ways to say the same thing. I don't think that "Sealed in trust, faith and truth." would be among them. The translator appears to have taken great liberties with the meaning of this word, and I suspect with many others as well.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

.... We do not have to confess any prophet as God's messenger otherwise that would lead to idolatry

to declare that Muhammed (p ) is a Prophet of God is idolatry to u . And to us , declare that a human being & angel are equal to God is idolatry . BTW , after the birth till the age of 33 , Jesus (p) was only 100 % human ?

all of Islam will excuse you but will God?

yap :statisfie because God commanded us in all major holy books to keep away from worshiping other deity besides God.


God won't forgive idolatry / associating partnership with Him. Muslims are free from this sin......Praise be to God only.

[FONT=&quot] verses for this life & the life hereafter [/FONT]







4:48





Verily, God forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases,


and whoever sets up partners with God in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin

 

[Redeemed]

[FONT=&quot]With the name of ALLAH (God Almigthy) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful[/FONT]



Salaam/peace;






no offence , pl. but if Hindu's Trinity is monotheistic polytheism , why Christian's Trinity is not ????




mg:


gods exist ????????? how ?? mg:




can u explain this comment ?





we believe , disbelievers will receive God's mercy in this world only .... for their all good deeds , they will be rewarded here .....NOT in the life hereafter.


[FONT=&quot] verses for this life & the life hereafter [/FONT]

And the earth - We have spread it out wide, and placed on it mountains firm, and caused [life] of every kind to grow on it in a balanced manner, and provided thereon means of livelihood for you as well as for all [living beings] whose sustenance does not depend on you.

-Quran (15:19-20)

Peace Muslim Woman
You didn't answer my question. Why are you asking these things? Are you considering becoming a Hindu? There is no comparison here. The Christian faith has its roots in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which was way before the Hindu religion. The devil is a liar and will stop at nothing to discredit Christianity. It was prophesied that Jesus would come, and He did. Why do you hate the thought of Jesus being God’s son? It is written: "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father." (John 15: 24)

 

[Grace Seeker]

BTW , after the birth till the age of 33 , Jesus (p) was only 100 % human ?

No. This is what I was talking about with MustafaMc. During his earthly life, (and still) Jesus was both 100% human and 100% diety without their being a mixing of the two natures. (Yes, I know, 100%+100%= 200% and there is no such thing. Let's just face it; Christians don't know how to do math very well. :statisfie )

You can read more about it by looking up websites discussing what we call the hypostatic union: What is the Hypostatic Union? and Jesus' Two Natures.

 

[Pynthanomai]

No, that is quite alright. I guess it is just your style of writing. I'll have to learn some more vocabulary. It is just that you made it sound like you could settle the problem or explain the concept of the trinity when I don't think anyone can. Your words were "The entire matter is easily resolved thus..."

Hello again,

Yes, I've been told that my style of writing would be ideally suited to dry-as-dust historical prose. Oh well, I guess my strengths lie elsewhere.

As far as the Trinity is concerned, I did indeed intend to sound reasonably final and comprehensive in my post. The majority of the postings that I've read in this thread (and others) - indeed, the majority of the arguments I've read elsewhere - that attempt to discredit the doctrine of the Trinity do so on the basis that, should the doctrine be proven to be irreconcilable to logic or scientific proof, it will therefore be held to be untenable: failing to understand that it is never proposed by Christianity any otherwise than as a religious tenet, requiring religious faith for its acceptance. Therefore (I reasoned), once this was understood, it would appear that the postings and arguments to which I've referred are interesting in themselves, but essentially irrelevant qua the validity of the doctrine itself.

I agree that no human being is able to adequately, fully and completely explain or understand the Trinity. But this is only natural, when one considers that we are finite, mortal, created beings, attempting to understand the essence of an infinite, immortal, quasi-solipsistic being. Nevertheless, what we do not understand we may still believe. As Tertullian said, "Credo quia absurdum est"; or rather, as Augustine, "Credo ut intellegam."

 

[Redeemed]

Salaam/peace;



to declare that Muhammed (p ) is a Prophet of God is idolatry to u . And to us , declare that a human being & angel are equal to God is idolatry . BTW , after the birth till the age of 33 , Jesus (p) was only 100 % human ?





yap :statisfie because God commanded us in all major holy books to keep away from worshiping other deity besides God.


God won't forgive idolatry / associating partnership with Him. Muslims are free from this sin......Praise be to God only.

[FONT=&quot] verses for this life & the life hereafter [/FONT]







4:48





Verily, God forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases,


and whoever sets up partners with God in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin

I don't know how you can back that up. God did not say He might forgive all sin except for idolatry. We don't associate anyone to God. But you are not honoring Jesus: It is written that you must honor the son the same as Allah (I call Father) because if you don't, you are not really honoring God who sent him to save us from our sin. God chose the way he wants to save you. But Islam is teaching you to say, "no God you will save me this way (the way Muhammad says)" It is the devil who wants people to be adamantly against the idea of Jesus as Lord and Savior, so he can be sure to claim souls for hell.
Peace

 

[Muslim Woman]

[FONT=&quot]
Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God Almighty be upon you)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]%%%%%[/FONT]

alapiana1;787252] Why are you asking these things?

ummm, i explained it twice.


I want to know if Christians can understand Hindus's Trinity.


If no , then at least try to realise why Christians Trinity is hard for Muslims to understand.

Are you considering becoming a Hindu?

:giggling::giggling::giggling: haha funny joke , thanks for sharing

u could ask me if i want to be a Christian ......at least i believe they are people of the holy book

The Christian faith has its roots in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

i know :statisfie

The devil is a liar and will stop at nothing to discredit Christianity.

i never said that Christians borrowed Trinity from Hindus or Hindus Trinity is right & yours is wrong.

Why do you hate the thought of Jesus being God’s son?

God is above having a son , daughter , mom , dad.

they both seen and hated both me and my Father." (John 15: 24)

[/QUOTE]


it's a must for ALL MUSLIMS to respect Jesus (p) . One can't remain as a Muslim even for one second if s/he hates Jesus (p)

And hate God ?????? LOL Muslims are those who surrendered themselves to God .


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Hadith - Qudsi 5[/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]I am so self-sufficient that I am in no need of having an associate. Thus he who does an action for someone else's sake as well as Mine will have that action renounced by Me to him whom he associated with Me[/FONT]





hadith:

It is the pillar upon which Islam is built. The Prophet said "Islaam is built upon five : the tawheed of Allah…..(Related by Muslim no. 19)

 

[Muslim Woman]

[FONT=&quot]Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of God Almighty be upon you)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]%%%%%[/FONT]

(Yes, I know, 100%+100%= 200% and there is no such thing. Let's just face it; Christians don't know how to do math very well. :statisfie )

or may be ,Christians are very well in Math so they understand all the complicated calculations those go over my head :-[

You can read more about it by looking up websites discussing what we call the hypostatic union: What is the Hypostatic Union? and Jesus' Two Natures.

[/QUOTE]


oh no , i dont even know the meaning of hypostatic union but Insha Allah i will the link

[FONT=&quot] verses for this life & the life hereafter :statisfie[/FONT]




Verily, God forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases,


and whoever sets up partners with God in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin

chapter 4 , verse 48

 

[Redeemed]

[FONT=&quot]
Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God Almighty be upon you)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]%%%%%[/FONT]



ummm, i explained it twice.


I want to know if Christians can understand Hindus's Trinity.


If no , then at least try to realise why Christians Trinity is hard for Muslims to understand.






:giggling::giggling::giggling: haha funny joke , thanks for sharing

u could ask me if i want to be a Christian ......at least i believe they are people of the holy book









i know :statisfie






i never said that Christians borrowed Trinity from Hindus or Hindus Trinity is right & yours is wrong.




God is above having a son , daughter , mom , dad.

it's a must for ALL MUSLIMS to respect Jesus (p) . One can't remain as a Muslim even for one second if s/he hates Jesus (p)

And hate God ?????? LOL Muslims are those who surrendered themselves to God .


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Hadith - Qudsi 5[/FONT]



[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]I am so self-sufficient that I am in no need of having an associate. Thus he who does an action for someone else's sake as well as Mine will have that action renounced by Me to him whom he associated with Me[/FONT]





hadith:

It is the pillar upon which Islam is built. The Prophet said "Islaam is built upon five : the tawheed of Allah…..(Related by Muslim no. 19)[/QUOTE]




Sorry about that. I know you would never consider Hinduism. I guess I was just being facitious. I really don't want to study any more about Hindusim, because I find it rather depressing. At least we agree that Jesus walked on earth. If you can't believe in him as the son of God, believe in what he did. AS I mentioned, it is like we are a family linked on this forum, but if nothing changes, we will all be going separated ways forever. Jesus asked his disciples, "Who do people say I the son of man am?" People were calling Jesus Elijah the prophet, John the Baptist. Jesus asked his disciples, "Who do you say I am?" Peter called out, "You are the Christ the Son of the living God." Jesus said, "Blessed are you Simon Peter flesh and blood did not reveal this to you. It was shown to you from above." I don't trust in myself to get to heaven and in good with God. I trust Jesus to make things right in my life, so I can be accepted by God.

By the way, what does BTW stand for? Just joking. LOL :laugh:

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

You can read more about it by looking up websites discussing what we call the hypostatic union: What is the Hypostatic Union? and Jesus' Two Natures.

ok , i just had a quick look . When u have time pl. explain.


Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.

...........The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Only God could pay such an infinite penalty



---when Jesus (p) is NOT claiming in Bible that I am God , why Christians are doing so ???

Loot at the other epression---Jesus has to be God ,

it looks like ( no offence , pl ) Christians are forcing Jesus (p) to be God .


http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

 

[Redeemed]

Salaam/peace;




ok , i just had a quick look . When u have time pl. explain.


Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.

...........The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Only God could pay such an infinite penalty



---when Jesus (p) is NOT claiming in Bible that I am God , why Christians are doing so ???

Loot at the other epression---Jesus has to be God ,

it looks like ( no offence , pl ) Christians are forcing Jesus (p) to be God .


http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

Actually that is not such a bad question. Jesus said things that allude to him being God and others have said the same such as "Before Abraham was I am" and when Thomas asked Jesus to show him who the father was Jesus said, "don't you know me" Jesus also said, "I am the first and the last" these are titles that God used. There are many other such things. The Bible says don't be like the OX that has to be led around with a bit and bridle. God made us intelligent enough to infer who Jesus really is. He is I am.

 

[MustafaMc]

I agree that no human being is able to adequately, fully and completely explain or understand the Trinity. But this is only natural, when one considers that we are finite, mortal, created beings, attempting to understand the essence of an infinite, immortal, quasi-solipsistic being. Nevertheless, what we do not understand we may still believe. As Tertullian said, "Credo quia absurdum est"; or rather, as Augustine, "Credo ut intellegam."

I was following you pretty well until the "quasi-solipsistic" and I don't read what I suppose is Latin.

solipsism: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing; also : extreme egocentrism solipsistic adjective

...but anyway I could substitute Allah where you put Trinity and agree all the way up to, but excluding quasi-solipsistic. You are right that it is all a matter of faith and I contend that it boils down to whether one believes that the Quran or the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and whether Muhammad or the various Biblical authors received their revelations from God or not.

If a Muslims accepts the Quran as the Word of Allah, then there is absolutely no way that he will accept the Trinity concept with Jesus being the Son of God. If a Christian accepts the Bible as the Word of God, then there is no way that he can accept that saying Jesus is the Son of God is a polytheistic belief and actually ascribing a partner to the One God. So it seems that we are at an impasse.

impasse 1 a: a predicament affording no obvious escape b: deadlock2: an impassable road or way

 

[Redeemed]

It looks like some posts got deleted my response to one that implied I was attacking and MustafaMc took great offense and Vb didn't let me know if my answer satisfied him: I never tried to promote the word trinity on this forum that word isn't even used in the Bible. I am happy to never mention it again, but you guys won't let me. You guys keep bringing it up. I told you what I believe. I believe that Jesus is the word of God who became flesh and dwelled amongst us. Immanuel (God with us). You take offense, because I say that I consider not accepting Jesus as the son of God as equal to hate. Well, you do reject that Jesus is the son of God. What would you call rejecting that it if not hate? You hate it, because you consider it the sin of shirk. Moreover, the Bible says “Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them.” If you are so sure you follow the right path, how can you be offended? You should be broken hearted over me who you believe is lost like I am over you. I do not dislike you; in fact, I respect you every much, and I am sorry you feel that way about me. Maybe I should learn a little more about beating around the bush, but I am not good at that. I like to get right to the point. I am sorry for being so candid, but hopefully God will redeem my approach in your eyes. I am an unprofitable servant to my Lord and God.

If you are trying to make me feel bad, you are succeeding. If I remember in the Qur'an (I could be mistaken) didn't Muhammad ask for challenges regarding spiritually things? If he did, then why are you indirectly getting on my case. The way things have been going, after all the time and energy I have put on this forum, we have been learning, but what good is it, if we are forever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth? The way I see it is there is nothing I could say that would make things worse for you or me in your eyes. Maybe I would like for us to get down to where the tire meets the road. I have never attacked anyone's character like mine as been explicitly and implicitly attacked. And if you or anybody thinks I have been hard, what will you think on the Day of Judgment? The Bible says, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend but the kisses of the enemy are deceitful." I would rather be seen as a friend who gives a faithful wound than just allowing learning to go on with no one coming to the knowledge of truth. I challenge anyone to show me where I have attacked their character. If you want to attack what I believe, you have my permission. God can defend Himself. I don't need to take up an offense for Him. I believe that I speak the truth in love. If I am not, I am the most miserable person in the world.

 

[MustafaMc]

I have never attacked anyone's character like mine as been explicitly and implicitly attacked. And if you or anybody thinks I have been hard, what will you think on the Day of Judgment? The Bible says, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend but the kisses of the enemy are deceitful." I would rather be seen as a friend who gives a faithful wound than just allowing learning to go on with no one coming to the knowledge of truth. I challenge anyone to show me where I have attacked their character. If you want to attack what I believe, you have my permission. God can defend Himself. I don't need to take up an offense for Him. I believe that I speak the truth in love. If I am not, I am the most miserable person in the world.

It seems that you may fall into this group rather than the "evangelicals" who ridicule Muslims and attack Islam.

I don't know how else to respond to someone who says that I hate Jesus and the one Jesus referred to as Father just because I don't adhere to the same beliefs that he has about them. I still take offense at this charge!

I assume that you are referring to the last sentence in a post that I made. Do you deny that you have explicitly attacked Islam?

 

[Redeemed]

I don't know how else to respond to someone who says that I hate Jesus and the one Jesus referred to as Father just because I don't adhere to the same beliefs that he has about them. I still take offense at this charge!

I assume that you are referring to the last sentence in a post that I made. Do you deny that you have explicitly attacked Islam?

I can see how you see that I have attacked Islam, but I can't see how you would be offended knowing that I want you to have a relationship with the Jesus of the Bible. Let me clarify. You (when I say "you" I mean all Muslims not just you) do not hate the Jesus in the Qur'an. You hold him in high esteem. I know that, but do you deny that you reject Jesus as God's son? If the answer is yes, then that is what Jesus means by hate; however, don't blame me for it. Your offense should be against Jesus who said, If you do not believe I am he, you will die in your sins, and he also says that if you have not heard and seen the works that Jesus had done which no other man has done, you would be without fault not believing that He is the son of God. But you have heard of the works and word of Jesus and reject the Jesus of the Bible. That is why Jesus said, “you hate both me and my father” But you respect and honor the Jesus in the Koran. These words are not mine; they are the words of Christ Jesus. I am tempted to be offended that you would take an offense at me for speaking the truth in love, but I refuse to, because I choose not to be. But, I would like to know what false statement have I made that you should be offended. I did not say anything false, but even if I did and if you are offended, that is because you choose to be.
I wish you peace, love and happiness!:happy:

BTW, I believe that most of the Christians if not all see things this way. They just have a different presentation then me. One that is is less confrontational, but their spirit of thinking is along these lines. They may not agree with my style, but they can't easily deny I speak the truth.