((----Who's More Precious Women or Money ----))

[IbnAbdulHakim]

But then that is only my opinion. :skeleton:

hehe





i love the mufti's come back, nothin more precious to a man then his wife

 

[Helena]

jazaks for the intresting article....

i've posted this thread long time ago......(hope am ruining ur thread)

heres the link...

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-...ween-mufti-reverend-hope-u-read-inshalah.html

 

[Snowflake]

I'd have to argue against men selling products equally--- I have never seen a man gyrate his body to sell me beer.... but I have seen women gyrate to sell anything from shampoo to hard liquor ... hmmmmmmn

peace

lololol well said sis.. ;D ;D ;D

that says it all!

 

[SATalha]

Ur post was great purestambrosia

 

[جوري]

Eh... until he gets a reply back-- I am going to address another thing in his post (which he indicated as a whole other topic) concerning ("marrying your daughters off")... it is a woman's choice to whom she wishes to be wed... if she is to be wed against her will.. the marriage would be null and void by Islamic law.... as evidenced in this hadith...... Now I feel like it would take me all day to study and refute this post point by point... but I really have to work on more pressing projects today-- So hopefully with a little more patience all will be addressed and thoroughly insha'Allah......

Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I have actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Mohammed specifically mentioned daughters here and the need for good parenting (excepting the bit about marrying them off, which is a whole subject in itself to do with lack of choice and freedom in relationships) So Daughters are to be treated well. Sons?

[/B]

addendum: Well I hope I have answered the bit about good parenting up to and including your parenthesis portion... however I am not sure I understand why you are brining the "sons" part into it-- if you had originally requested Quranic verses and Hadiths as per regard to women?

 

[Skavau]

A lot of Muslim women choose to 'cover up' and stay at home of their own volition.

The same applies with Non-Islamic women. They choose to not cover up and leave the house. Non-Islamic women doing that has nothing to do with a loss of dignity and respect.

I don't like the example in the first post, but I'm not fond of the ensuing swipes at Islamic practices either.

I was pointing at what the analogy was implying rather than Islamic practices as a whole.

another excuse not to believe in Islam.

What if someone just doesn't want to believe in Islam full stop?

don’t equate women with possession yet there is no problem using women to acquire your possessions (ex money).

1. Not all Westerners feel this way.
2. Western Women who are half-naked on television, billboards to advertise a product do it out of their own free-will. That is not oppression, nor is it a degradation to them being a material possession.

 

[جوري]

The same applies with Non-Islamic women. They choose to not cover up and leave the house. Non-Islamic women doing that has nothing to do with a loss of dignity and respect..

Does implying one automatically invalidate the other? In other words --is the fact that he states some women like to stay at home on their own volition without loss of dignity and respect automatically mean your non-Muslim woman who chooses to work has in fact lost her dignity and respect? I personally didn't read that into it... Considering most Muslim women I know are respectful professionals.

What if someone just doesn't want to believe in Islam full stop?

Then they don't--

2. Western Women who are half-naked on television, billboards to advertise a product do it out of their own free-will. That is not oppression, nor is it a degradation to them being a material possession.

How can you make that assumption? Any form of objectifying women thereby reducing them to nothing more than an instrument to please men or sell a product or tantalize you on a late Saturday night is a form of oppression!

I don't really think you can speak for all women who choose to work questionable professions-- Go ahead and run a double blinded randomized trial requesting an honest reply from half naked women --if they would accept the same amount they would have otherwise, to run on TV or a billboard in their panties for a more dignified option-- and then can we label it as the (free will in action) or the pay check screaming!....

Any form of taking your clothes off for money is a form of prostitution! -- albeit a more socially acceptable form than the street workers! Any woman who does it because she likes it would be classified in DSM-IV as a Narcissist or an Exhibitionist -- both are serious personality disorders!

peace!

 

[Muezzin]

The same applies with Non-Islamic women. They choose to not cover up and leave the house. Non-Islamic women doing that has nothing to do with a loss of dignity and respect.

I was not implying otherwise.

I was pointing at what the analogy was implying rather than Islamic practices as a whole.

Okay.

 

[Skavau]

How can you make that assumption? Any form of objectifying women thereby reducing them to nothing more than an instrument to please men or sell a product or tantalize you on a late Saturday night is a form of oppression!

Oppression:
to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power: a people oppressed by totalitarianism. Courtesy of dictionary.com

As long as the women are doing it out of their own free-will, then it is not oppression.

I don't really think you can speak for all women who choose to work questionable professions

Correct, I can't - but they choose to do the professions - do they not?

if they would accept the same amount they would have otherwise, to run on TV or a billboard in their panties for a more dignified option-- and then can we label it as the (free will in action) or the pay check screaming!....

Their reasons for doing it is irrelevent. It is not a forced profession in any developed country and if they do it for the money, then they are still doing it out of free-choice.

 

[Muezzin]

In male-dominated cultures, women will always be objectified. Systems, such as religion, or law, can be put into place to either eliminate or restrict such objectification, but it's a constant problem with many cultures, sadly.

 

[جوري]

Oppression:
to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power: a people oppressed by totalitarianism. Courtesy of dictionary.com.

please don't patronize me...I am not going to sit here and argue semantics with you--- here is another definition courtesy of meriam webster since you are so big on words...
oppress
One entry found for oppress.

Entry Word: oppress
Text: 1 to make sad <this gloomy weather is oppressing all of us> -- see DEPRESS 1
2 to subject to incapacitating emotional or mental stress <I'm simply oppressed by the demands of my job and schoolwork> -- see OVERWHELM 1

To do something that is physically or emotionally unacceptable for financial reasons would therefore be a form of oppression!... what is your point?

As long as the women are doing it out of their own free-will, then it is not oppression.

As long as perverts pay big for it... the desperate will do it-- making it a form of prostitution-- if oppression is linguistically unappealing to you!

Correct, I can't -

Agreed... so don't speak on their behalf!

Their reasons for doing it is irrelevent. It is not a forced profession in any developed country and if they do it for the money, then they are still doing it out of free-choice.

Yes... people are certainly free to be degenerates! and the reasons are very relevant it is the crux of this topic...

 

[edil]

Masha'allah that was a really nice metaphor it describes something to something else when it really means something else. Masha'allah that mufti was really wise at first I didnt get where he was coming from then I understood.....May Allah reward those who take the right path.

 

[Skavau]

One entry found for oppress.

Entry Word: oppress
Text: 1 to make sad <this gloomy weather is oppressing all of us> -- see DEPRESS 1
2 to subject to incapacitating emotional or mental stress <I'm simply oppressed by the demands of my job and schoolwork> -- see OVERWHELM 1

Prove that all women who engage in modelling and other jobs related to it are overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed.

And that is a poor definition of oppress.

To do something that is physically or emotionally unacceptable for financial reasons would therefore be a form of oppression!... what is your point?

Not everyone who does that feels that way.

Agreed... so don't speak on their behalf!

I'm not speaking on their behalf. You yourself are unwittingly speaking on their behalf by making the enormous generalisation that everyone who does it is overwhelmed and emotionally distressed.

Yes... people are certainly free to be degenerates! and the reasons are very relevant it is the crux of this topic...

And what is your opinion of Women in a Western Society, may I ask? And your opinion on the Hijab?

Rev: It will get stolen, obviously.
Mufti: You keep your money hidden because it is so valuable. We value the true worth of women far, far more. Therefore, these precious jewels are not on display to one and all. They are kept in honour and dignity....

This is an assumption of paranoia. If Mufti agrees with Rev's statement that money is kept locked away because it will get stolen, and then equates to women - he is not only implying women are a material possession - to be kept safe and secure, he is also implying that there is a risk of women being stolen and my only conclusion is that is the case is the fear of rape.

Honour and dignity too does not equal the support of one being behind closed doors. It equals the position of freedom. Women are safe in a Western Society. They are not second class citizens and they are not treated as sex objects all the time as some of you like to assume (or give the impression of such).

 

[جوري]

Prove that all women who engage in modelling and other jobs related to it are overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed.

And that is a poor definition of oppress.

The burden of proof isn't on me to validate anything... You have come here leaving statements of disenchantment to the original post...To which we have pointed serious flaws! As for your like or dislike of the definition -- take it out with Meriam- webster.. a word can be used to mean many different things... are we arguing women' rights or your dislike of poor definitions?

Not everyone who does that feels that way.

Have you modeled half naked on a billboard?

I'm not speaking on their behalf. You yourself are unwittingly speaking on their behalf by making the enormous generalisation that everyone who does it is overwhelmed and emotionally distressed.

I am making an enormous generalization that everyone who engages in that life style is committing a form of acceptable prostitution... and rightfully so.. without regard to your definitions or their feelings of how politically incorrect it is....

And what is your opinion of Women in a Western Society, may I ask? And your opinion on the Hijab?

None of your business what my opinion is of western women or Hijab...

This is an assumption of paranoia. If Mufti agrees with Rev's statement that money is kept locked away because it will get stolen, and then equates to women - he is not only implying women are a material possession - to be kept safe and secure, he is also implying that there is a risk of women being stolen and my only conclusion is that is the case is the fear of rape.

Honour and dignity too does not equal the support of one being behind closed doors. It equals the position of freedom. Women are safe in a Western Society. They are not second class citizens and they are not treated as sex objects all the time as some of you like to assume (or give the impression of such).

Nothing in Islam prohibits a woman from becoming educated or "locked away" Hind RA during the time of the prophet had even requested to take from the state fund to start her own business and was allowed... the prophet worked for his first wife... women went out there in the battle field along side men-- such as (Om 'omara), women were allowed to vote during the time time of the Prophet-- Women were/are granted rights in Islam that weren't even heard of during the mid half of last century in your civilized west-- tell me how long ago was it that a black woman was asked to be move to the back of the bus for a white man? or how still in modern day women don't make equal pay to men for doing the same job!

Go ahead and browse the "How educated are you thread" to keep from further humiliating yourself with false assumptions... There are more women doctors in Egypt than there are women doctors in the united states... there are more women sitting in the Iranian parliament than there are women in the house of representatives in the united states.... How many Muslims countries have you traveled to and how many Muslim women have you interviewed to come up with your erroneous analogies?

 

[Skavau]

The burden of proof isn't on me to validate anything...

Yes it is, you made a claim that women who model and engage in similar jobs become overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed. Please prove?

You have come here leaving statements of disenchantment to the original post

Yes I did. Although we've gone from that to women's rights since then.

take it out with Meriam- webster.. a word can be used to mean many different things... are we arguing women' rights or your dislike of poor definitions?

Women's rights. I was just pointing out that it was a poor definition.

Have you modeled half naked on a billboard?

No. But I'm not making swooping statements encompassing every woman that does model half naked on billboards.

I am making an enormous generalization that everyone who engages in that life style is committing a form of acceptable prostitution... and rightfully so.. without regard to your definitions or their feelings of how politically incorrect it is....

Exactly, so you're doing exactly what you accuse me of. Speaking on their behalf.

None of your business what my opinion is of western women or Hijab...

I was just asking, as it would allow me to gain more insight on exactly what position you stand on.

Nothing in Islam prohibits a woman from becoming educated or "locked away

I never said it did. I was referring to the article's idea.

go ahead and browse the "How educated are you thread" to keep from further humiliating yourself with false assumptions... There are more women doctors in Egypt than there are women doctors in the united states... there are more women sitting in the Iranian parliament than there are women in the house of representatives in the united states.... How many Muslims countries have you traveled to and how many Muslim women have you interviewed to come up with your erroneous analogies?

I was referring to what the ARTICLE was saying. It was not a swooping statement on Islamic beliefs.

And I would not recommend using Egypt as a pinnacle of human rights.

 

[جوري]

Yes it is, you made a claim that women who model and engage in similar jobs become overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed. Please prove?.

you bore me like a child with a tantrum... Who reads and concludes what he wants in between the lines.......

Yes I did. Although we've gone from that to women's rights since then..

Then stop going off on tangential topics......

Women's rights. I was just pointing out that it was a poor definition..

And I stated-- take it out with Meriam-Webster...

No. But I'm not making swooping statements encompassing every woman that does model half naked on billboards..

I stand by the statements... is every hooker also a prostitute? I think it is safe to make that assumption! It doesn't matter where on the spectrum of taking your clothes off and how much money in exchange...

I was just asking, as it would allow me to gain more insight on exactly what position you stand on. .

Pls don't try to analyze my Psyche with your half baked deep insights using an "esteemed" third party form of psycho- analysis

I never said it did. I was referring to the article's idea..

Oh sorry -- my bad!

I was referring to what the ARTICLE was saying. It was not a swooping statement on Islamic beliefs.

And I would not recommend using Egypt as a pinnacle of human rights.

Are we speaking of women's rights in Islam or human rights in a so-called Islamic country? try to focus on one task at a time, and don't suggest to me recommendations!

peace!

 

[Skavau]

you bore me like a child with a tantrum... Who reads and concludes what he wants in between the lines.......

So what have I misinterpeted then? You claimed a few posts back, or at least made links from modelling to depression and emotional distress. If you are making the claim that those fields cause such, then you must prove that this is the case.

If you make a swooping statement, you must prove it.

Pls don't try to analyze my Psyche with your half baked deep insights using an "esteemed" third party form of psycho- analysis

Uhm... what? That is not my motivation. I just wanted to know what your opinion on two topics are:
1. Women in Western World.
2. The Hijab.

That was it. And you have to take it as a personal attack? I think you've got some problems with me as every post by you is coming off as aggressive. Although if I asked what that was, you'd probably act offended.

Are we speaking of women's rights in Islam or human rights in a so-called Islamic country? try to focus on one task at a time, and don't suggest to me recommendations!

Human rights.

And excuse me? You seem to get angry whenever I make a suggestion to anything. Why shouldn't I point out my view? I'm not allowed to ask you your opinion on topics, and now I'm not allowed to put across my view of using Egypt as an example?

I think this is gone as free discussion.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey Barney.


If you're still checking this thread, i'd like you to check this link out as it clears many of those misconceptions which have - praise is for Allaah - been refuted by brother Ansar on this forum. You can access them here:

http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=2


When he comes on, inshaa Allaah he will discuss it with you.

 

[جوري]

So what have I misinterpeted then? You claimed a few posts back, or at least made links from modelling to depression and emotional distress. If you are making the claim that those fields cause such, then you must prove that this is the case..

I have stated that objectifying women is a form of oppression to which you have included your own definition of what oppression is.. and we have included a different one... and then you have made all sorts of conclusions since...

Uhm... what? That is not my motivation. I just wanted to know what your opinion on two topics are:
1. Women in Western World.
2. The Hijab.

And you have to take it as a personal attack? I think you've got some problems with me as every post by you is coming off as aggressive. Although if I asked what that was, you'd probably act offended.

You have a speech impediment-- for I don't recognize (uhm) as a viable word with a meaning-- and by same token certainly wouldn't want you making more jaded conclusions and false assumptions... Suffice it to say, if I wanted a rational opinion of my beliefs, yours wouldn't be the ones I seek!

And excuse me? You seem to get angry whenever I make a suggestion to anything. Why shouldn't I point out my view? I'm not allowed to ask you your opinion on topics, and now I'm not allowed to put across my view of using Egypt as an example?

I think this is gone as free discussion.

You are indeed excused! for three wrong conclusions...
I am far from angry-- simply mildy amused on how long you wish to keep this up?
2-You should most certainly share your views as pertains to the topic at hand and not branch out all over the place...
3-I am not sure what your definition is of a "free discussion" are we free to discuss guillain barre in this section?


peace!

 

[Skavau]

I have stated that objectifying women is a form of oppression to which you have included your own definition of what oppression is.. and we have included a different one... and then you have made all sorts of conclusions since...

One entry found for oppress.

Entry Word: oppress
Text: 1 to make sad <this gloomy weather is oppressing all of us> -- see DEPRESS 1
2 to subject to incapacitating emotional or mental stress <I'm simply oppressed by the demands of my job and schoolwork> -- see OVERWHELM 1

Oh. It looks like I misread the post. I was under the assumption you typed 'OVERWHELM' and 'DEPRESS' in order to make a point about those in modelling. I apologise.

You have a speech impediment

No I don't.

for I don't recognize (uhm) as a viable word with a meaning

What has that got to do with anything? It isn't a word, so what? You're just trying to make personal attacks.

and by same token certainly wouldn't want you making more jaded conclusions and false assumptions

Jaded conclusions and false assumptions about what?

Suffice it to say, if I wanted a rational opinion of my beliefs, yours wouldn't be the ones I seek!

I only asked for your beliefs on the matter for the sake of discussion. When two people discuss a topic, it is helpful to know each others beliefs on certain matters on the topic. You seemed to act offended when I asked out of curiousity what your opinions on the matter were.

2-You should most certainly share your views as pertains to the topic at hand and not branch out all over the place...

I have generally kept to the topic at hand. I've only made a comment about Egypt's human rights.

3-I am not sure what your definition is of a "free discussion" are we free to discuss guillain barre in this section?

Well this example isn't a free discussion:

Person A: I think children should be disciplined harsher.
Person B: I disagree! Too much discipline is bad.
Person A: What are your opinions on spanking children?
Person B: That's none of your business!
Person A: ...

Or

Person B: That's not true! X is very good in achieving Y!
Person A: I don't think X is a good example to be using in relation to Y.
Person B: Don't make recommendations to me!
Person A: ...

See what I mean? You're limiting the discussion. I can't force you to do anything and I wouldn't want to even try, but when you act aggressive and hostile to me (and despite your claims of amusement - I am getting this impression) as well as refuse to talk about certain parts of the topic, it no longer becomes a discussion.