Whose life is more precious to God ?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

The baby is still in the womb, it hasn't started LIFE yet

well , actually i meant those unborn babies who will / may come in to mom's womb in future ....

now , they are not nowhere in the earth .....i.e. i m not talking about now a days pregnant women but about those womem who will have abortion in future when they will become pregnant.

I was told that Bush got many votes because he promised to make abortion law harder. Thus , Bush will save many babies in future.

That's the reason , though Bush proved himself as a liar & killer of many Iraqi innocent people , many supported him . The number of killing in Iraq is less than the killing is/will taking place in US abortion clinics .


Grace Seeker :Muslim Woman, it's your thread, I'll let you decide-- start dealing with them here, knowing that they will likely take us down some tangent that will never get back to your original question, or do our best to stay on topic?


---of course , i don't won't want to go off-topic .....mod won't allow that either. I think , u may start a thread on God loves sinners & good people
equally. But don't forget about this thread


As an American Pastor , u will be able to explain why so many Americans supported Bush on abortion gruond when they knew that he already killed & will kill many innocent lives in Iraq .

 

[Grace Seeker]

Isn't that just common sense?

This sounds like personal opinion to me. Maybe it is common sense, maybe it isn't. Whichever it is, it seems to be your sense of the matter, the commonness of it having not yet been established.

The reason I asked you "what Quranic passage tells us that the baby's life is not established? Or is this personal opinion?" Is because in starting this thread Muslim Woman stated: "I would love to have answers on religious grounds. What's the stand of Islam & others religions about this . Thanks." and I think she has gotten mostly personal opinion thus far.




Also, it seems to me as if you have given conflicting answers. In one place you say:

We can't possibly know which life is more precious to God.

And in another you say:

that doesn't mean the babies life is any less important at all!

and also

That does not mean that the life of the baby is worth any less, it just means it hasn't started life outside the womb yet.

If we know that the baby's life is not worth any less, then we know that its preciousness to God is at least equal to that of the mother's (which is the comparison you are making). I was comparing the baby's life not just to the mother's life, but to any other human being.

What is interesting here, is that if the Muslim scholars quoted above are any indication, it seems my views are more in line with Muslim thought on this issue than yours.


As to the issue of saving the life of the mother, that was not the genesis of this thread. If we think of this in terms of the lesser of two evils, then I see it better to save one life, than to lose two. (For most often if you lose the life of the mother, you are likely to lose the baby as well.) However, there are those circumstance when it is possible to save one or the other, but probably not both. I have sadly seen this in the case of a pregnant mom with cancer. Such choices are beyond my ability to make. I would not say that one has more right to life than the other. I confess that we humans are likely to have more attachment to one than the other, but the same could be said of an infant who's life as, in your words, "been established" when compared with the mother. I don't think we would apply that line of reasoning in the case of a new-born, so I don't see how that is applicable in the case of an unborn. You admit that both infants are indeed alive.

Which is another point of conflict you seem to have with yourself. For on the one hand you state:

once the soul has been breathed in to the baby, it is alive right? But it just hasn't been born yet

And then on the other hand you say things like:

The baby is still in the womb, it hasn't started LIFE yet,

and also

But the point is that it is more logically to save the life that is already established on earth than to save the life of something that isn't even properly alive yet and might still die in the womb.

So one moment the baby is alive and has a soul, and the next it isn't properly alive yet. But though it isn't properly alive it might still die.

It is all very confusing to me, and I can't help but wonder if perhaps you yourself are conflicted with regard to your understanding of a conceived but unborn child whether it is or is not a living human being?


If it isn't truly a living human being, I guess we can treat it like just so much living tissue, like an appendictus or tonsils. They have value to us, as long as they don't cause us any problems, but if they do (or even potentially might) take them out and throw them away.

On the other hand, if you consider an unborn child to truly be a living human being, then I have trouble with anyone suggesting that the life of an unborn child is some how not to be considered equally alongside of any other living human being just because of where it happens to be living that life. That's my personal opinion, and I've done as Muslim Woman requested and cited reasons from my religious texts that I believe support my view on this.

I will admit that there are other Christians who would argue that last point with me, though on this I am not prepared to admit that we simply agree to disagree. I actually do think that I'm right and they are wrong. Nonetheless, proving our respective views was not what Muslim Woman requested in this thred. So, I digress.

But, save for a few exceptiosn, I haven't seen many others try to provide the theological responses that she has requested.

 

[Grace Seeker]

As an American Pastor , u will be able to explain why so many Americans supported Bush on abortion gruond when they knew that he already killed & will kill many innocent lives in Iraq .

I've already stated it, but will do so again if that helps.


The religious right in this country feel very strongly about abortion. They see voting for Bush is a jihad in defense of the unborn. That about sums it up in a nutshell.

If people were not seeking abortions, the issue would probably be important to no one. But the reality is that people have sought, do presently seek, and will continue to seek abortions. There is a large votinig block in this country that desires to keep abortions legal, irrespective of whether it kills an child or not. Those who see these children as truly human beings, desire to protect them. It is an interesting coalition of all different types, some who wish to protect all human life, some who simply wish to protect unborn children and who at the same time have no problems with capital punishment or war, as they see these activities as justifiable for a number of various reasons to long to articulate here.

So, this struggle is fought in the voting both of our country. Now some voters consider this as one among many issues, but for others it is THE single and only issue of any importance.

I've already stated my personal view in response to a couple of different posts, so I have tried to state this as objectively as possible on an issue that carries with it great emotion.

 

[Malaikah]

Okay, lets see if I can dumb this down some more...

In womb- alive in the sense that it has a soul but has not started life outside the womb. It doesn't have a proper body yet, it still developing... (depending on the stage of pregnancy).

I wasn't giving my personally opinion, this is what the scholars mention.

Another example, in Islam, when someone is murdered, the persons family has the option of accepting blood money from the murderer, or having him sentenced to death.

If they it is an unborn baby that was killed, the blood money t be paid is less than the blood money to be paid on a person who already born, because there is no guarantee that the baby was going to be alive, it was not yet fully developed.

Just because something has a soul, doesn't mean it is alive in the way we understand it. Even dead people have a soul when they are in their grave.. doesn't mean they are alive.

So one moment the baby is alive and has a soul, and the next it isn't properly alive yet. But though it isn't properly alive it might still die.

The soul is blown in very early on in the pregnancy, when the babies body is still undeveloped.

So who do you save, living breathing human being walking n two legs, or an undeveloped lump of tissue that might not even be born alive in the first place?

This illustrates the principle I am talking about:

After the third stage, and after four months have passed, it is not permissible to abort the pregnancy unless a group of trustworthy medical specialists decide that keeping the foetus in his mother’s womb will cause her death, and that should only be done after all means of keeping the foetus alive have been exhausted. A concession is made allowing abortion in this case so as to ward off the greater of two evils and to serve the greater of two interests.​

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=42321&ln=eng

I know this is referring to abortion, but the principle is there.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

They see voting for Bush is a jihad in defense of the unborn.

Jihad to save unborn babies is simply wonderful ....may God reward them who are doing this Jihad , Ameen.

But why Iraqi adult people & hundreds of innocents kids need to die to save future unborn babies in USA ? Was not there any other option?
Have Americans tried all other possible options & only one was left ------to select a killer to save lives ?



When we have to choose between lesser evils , we must think about other grounds , too----not only the number of casualties.


To kill an adult means in many cases , u r killing the lone earning person in the family . May be , it's not common in USA but in Asia , it's very common. Mainly dad earns & wife & kids spends / survive on the income.



If only number is imp , then may be ur logic is ok ....... more babies are / will be killed in abortion clinics than in the war field in Iraq; so let's support Bush........but we are human being , we are not numbers only .

And also , why innocent people will pay so much for the sinners ? Those who are committing adultery , those doctors who are killing babies, punishing them should be considered as a Jihad & this Jihad won't hurt any inncoent person.


I think , sis Malikah is trying to say that a lot of people depended on an adult person . So, his death is more tragic to family members in that sense that they not only suffer emotionally but on fianacial ground , family members face a disaster.



How hundreds of Iraqi widows & orphan kids will survive ? Only God knows.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Okay, lets see if I can dumb this down some more...

In womb- alive in the sense that it has a soul but has not started life outside the womb. It doesn't have a proper body yet, it still developing... (depending on the stage of pregnancy).

I wasn't giving my personally opinion, this is what the scholars mention.

Another example, in Islam, when someone is murdered, the persons family has the option of accepting blood money from the murderer, or having him sentenced to death.

If they it is an unborn baby that was killed, the blood money t be paid is less than the blood money to be paid on a person who already born, because there is no guarantee that the baby was going to be alive, it was not yet fully developed.

Just because something has a soul, doesn't mean it is alive in the way we understand it. Even dead people have a soul when they are in their grave.. doesn't mean they are alive.



The soul is blown in very early on in the pregnancy, when the babies body is still undeveloped.

So who do you save, living breathing human being walking n two legs, or an undeveloped lump of tissue that might not even be born alive in the first place?

This illustrates the principle I am talking about:

After the third stage, and after four months have passed, it is not permissible to abort the pregnancy unless a group of trustworthy medical specialists decide that keeping the foetus in his mother’s womb will cause her death, and that should only be done after all means of keeping the foetus alive have been exhausted. A concession is made allowing abortion in this case so as to ward off the greater of two evils and to serve the greater of two interests.​

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=42321&ln=eng

I know this is referring to abortion, but the principle is there.

OK. gotcha. And so taking this back to the origin of the thread. What should a good Muslim in the USA do. In 2008 we will have an election.


There will be candidate A who will promise to get the troops out of Iraq someday, but who knows when. It will take at least a year to pullout. During that time, there could be another 100,000 deaths. Probably 10,000-`15,000 as a result of the USA (this includes probably 1,000-2,000 USA soldiers), and the rest as a result of sectarian violence. Whether that sectarian violence increases or decreases after the USA leaves I'll not try to guess, but you should factor in your own opinion.

The other, candidate B also says that we will get out of Iraq, once it is able to maintain the peace for itself, which you think will actually just exacerbate the problem. This probably means 4 more years of USA involved in the affairs of Iraq. Maybe even more deaths, instead of 100,000 more like 150,000 a year.


However there is another difference between candidate A and candidate B:

Candidate A favors unrestricted access to abortion for women at all phases of her pregnancy and without any reason to cite medical need. Simply put, it is her body and her right to choose. The life of the unborn child is inconsequential. With candidate A, expect 1.2 million unborn children to die from abortion in the year to come. Possibly more, for some recently determined illegal abortions would be made legal again. So we return to 1.6 milllion babies killed in a year.

Candidate B favors babies having a chance at life. Now, not all babies will make it to term and there would still be abortions for medical necessity; no mother's life would be put in danger. But if the laws that one once are enacted then the number of deaths would be more like 120,000 a year. (And btw that is a very high number compared to reality.)




So you have Candidate A -- anti-war, pro-Abortion
100,000 Iraqi deaths
1,000 USA solider deaths
1,200,000 unborn children aborted (less than 10% for medical reasons) (yearly)
1,301,000 Total deaths worldwide in one year.

And a grand total of 4,901,000 deaths over the next four years for which elected.



And you have Candidate B -- pro-babies, pro-war
150,000 Iraqi deaths (annually)
2,000 USA soldier deaths (annually)
120,000 unborn children aborted for medical necessity (annually)
272,000 Total deaths worldwide in one year.

And a grand total of 1,088,000 deaths over the next four years for which elected.



And before anyone starts to argue speculation. Of course it is. It all is. We don't know that any of these babies would have lived. We don't know even know that that many women would get pregnant. Of course we don't. But we don't know that any more people will die in Iraq either. But we know that this is the way things have been going in the past, and unless things change radically in the world, we can expect more deaths in Iraq, more women pregnant, and more babies killed by abotions that would otherwise have lived to be healthy and born to healthy mothers.

 

[Grace Seeker]

How hundreds of Iraqi widows & orphan kids will survive ? Only God knows.

You are right of course. I don't know the answer. I hate both of these wars. And we are not winning either one of them right now. But I feel we are one or two judges away from winning this Jihad against abortion in our country. I know that if we elect Candidate A above, that the war is lost and will be lost forever.

We cannot punish doctors when what they do is considered legal. We must change the law. And for that to change we must change how the law is interpreted. That means changing the judges, and that can't happen if Candidate A is elected.


As for the starving women and children of Iraq. I think that Iraq should send the grocery bill to the USA for the next 20 years.


Can we send the doctor's bill for medical treatment of those in the USA who have become addicted to the product of poppy seeds to Afghanistan?

 

[barney]

I know this is a badly hidden anti-bush/blair thread, but meh...i'll bite.

You would need to divide your Iraqi death toll by a factor of 8 unless you vote for Troops-out. in which case the death squads would double the figures given.

Regards

 

[poga]

As I read your post, that is the same as saying that you place no more value on child a few days from birth than on frozen sperm. Both are at best potential life, that you don't recognize the reality of an unborn infant as actually being a living (even if not breathing) human being yet. Is that correct?

Muslim Woman asked for religious grounds for such an opinion if you have any.

at difficult child birth priority is given to save the mothers live first
i hope this will be enough evidence to end this fitna

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ;

....We cannot punish doctors when what they do is considered legal.

ok , legally u can't punish them , but what about on religious ground ?

According to teaching of Jesus (p) , u believe every life is precious including the unborn babies. So , those who are killing thousands of babies daily , do they deserve punishment or not ?

If yes , then why not kill those doctors ? Give me answer on this religious grounds that they are proven killer , they are not repented & will surely kill many babies.

Can we send the doctor's bill for medical treatment of those in the USA who have become addicted to the product of poppy seeds to Afghanistan?

--- an adult person must be responsible for his/her own decision ........why put blame on others for individual choices ?

Should i kill my baby ...yes or no ..... ; shall i take drugs ...yes or no ? It's upto u / them.......but to be killed in a war or not .......this choice is not upto us.


Drugs are available everywhere now .......we all are not taking these. Those who are drug addicted , must take responsibity for taking the decision to have it. Medi-care is available for them...why dont they try to give it up ?
how & why ordianary , innocent people of other country can be responsible / suffer for US adults own choices ?

to be continued Insha Allah......if like others threads , mod does not delete it for cleaning purpose

 

[ibrarfaiz]

astaqfirullah this topic should be deleted, we are not allah we cannot decide not even in a small discussion

we cannot compare our power to him and also it is just sick

 

[Grace Seeker]

astaqfirullah this topic should be deleted, we are not allah we cannot decide not even in a small discussion

we cannot compare our power to him and also it is just sick

No, this topic should not be deleted.

In American and other democratic countries, Muslim and Christians and others who believe in God also have a responsibility to elect their government. Now we can withdraw from the system and let unbelievers decide who should lead the country, or we can participate in it and vote our conscience as we best understand it to be directed by God. To do that one must consider the issues being discussed here. To not consider them is worse than what you are suggesting it is to in effect let unbelievers play God with people's lives.

 

[Muslim Woman]

astaqfirullah this topic should be deleted, we are not allah we cannot decide not even in a small discussion

we cannot compare our power to him and also it is just sick

no one is comparing our power to God's power. Let me explain the background in short.


Many Americans supported Bush because he will try to save unborn babies lives by making abortion law harder. That's why they supported Bush & i m asking how logical is this ?



War based on lies are killing hundreds innocent lives in Iraq . So , should we think like that Bush will kill hundreds Iraqi people but will save thousands US babies , so it's ok to
support him ? Must not we think that we human being are not numbers only ?

**


One Day You're Gonna Wake Up, America.

By David Michael Green


One day you’re gonna wake up in a hostile world where your country no longer has any friends.


...... one day you’re gonna wake up fearing for your life as your country is brutally attacked by angry militants deploying weapons of mass destruction against your cities.


Long dormant connections in your brain will resurface, and you will dimly understand why.


On this day – perhaps March 20, 2023 – you might be assisted in your comprehension by the message of one of the attackers, someone whose family your country callously destroyed in its mission accomplished in Iraq, and who spent the next twenty years plotting this day’s revenge.

And you will wonder again why you stood by as your country attacked Iraq on a completely bogus pretext.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17651.htm

 

[Kittygyal]

astaqfirullah this topic should be deleted, we are not allah we cannot decide not even in a small discussion

we cannot compare our power to him and also it is just sick

Salamualikum.
Dude. Better to take this by p'ming a mod/admin about it inshallah Allah knows best
Ma'assalama

 

[Grace Seeker]

no one is comparing our power to God's power. Let me explain the background in short.


Many Americans supported Bush because he will try to save unborn babies lives by making abortion law harder. That's why they supported Bush & i m asking how logical is this ?



War based on lies are killing hundreds innocent lives in Iraq . So , should we think like that Bush will kill hundreds Iraqi people but will save thousands US babies , so it's ok to
support him ? Must not we think that we human being are not numbers only ?

And we are also not debating either the morality of either abortion or of war. This discussion was premised on the belief that both are wrong. Given that, and that sometimes one has to make choices between two wrongs and no rights are available, should these issues by weighed in a balance against each other, or is that process of considering them using the philospohy of "the lesser of two evils" itself wrong? I think that is really the question before us.

Personally, I think that it is wrong to try to pick between the lesser of two evils, because it means you are still picking evil, and I don't think one should ever do that. But, also personally, I don't have another solution or way to look at the problem that is any better than that. If someone does, please suggest it. This is not, as some have falsely asserted, a theoretical exercise that no one will ever be faced with. Americans have been faced with it at every election, and will be again next year.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace.

And a grand total of 4,901,000 deaths over the next four years

----what about the injured persons ? Many people including kids have lost legs , eyes , hands ; thus became physically retarded forever.



Won’t they & their near dear ones curse Americans for the rest of their lives ? Do u think , curse of an oppressed person has some valuse to God ?



If a mom kills her unborn babies , the main victim here is the baby but no one is injured physically & s/he won’t become a burden to anybody.


What about that son who's mom was gang raped by US soldiers ? His dad informed Cindy Seehan that now his son's only aim in life is , when he grows up , he will kill Americans.


Moreover ,I can ‘t understand this point……..why other innocent people of a different country must pay for US sinners ?


Why not punish the sinners instead of killing hundreds innocent lives ? How many doctors are there in abortion clinics ? If u kill them all , then there will be no baby killing in USA ………how about that ?


Sounds illogical ? Why ?

If we have to decide between more & less deaths , then greedy & killer doctors should be killed to stop more killing........murdered Iraqi civilians were not criminals / sinners/ killers & i think , there are not 600, 000 doctors in USA who are killing the babies.


Number Of Iraqi Civilians Slaughtered In America's War On Iraq - At Least 655,000 + +


I think , many Americans did not support bombing on abortion clinics by some Christians groups. I wonder , how & why then they supported drop bombs on Iraqi civilians ?????

Kerry at least was not a proven killer . So , when Americans ( specially Christians ) had no choice but to select between 2 lesser evils , then how Bush managed to get their support ? It's because , he will kill Iraqi kids but save US kids ?


May God increases me in knowledge to understand this logic - why innocents need to pay for sinners ?

 

[dougmusr]

What about that son who's mom was gang raped by US soldiers ? His dad informed Cindy Seehan that now his son's only aim in life is , when he grows up , he will kill Americans.

Unless someone who has the right to seek revenge choses not to take it, and as long as revenge is exacted on innocents along with the perpetrators, then killing will continue. The above individual has made a statement which I take to be contradictory. I would reword it thusly, "It was wrong for an American to mistreat my mother because she was innocent. I therefore feel justified in killing other innocents in order that I might commit the same wrong on others."

If a mom kills her unborn babies , the main victim here is the baby but no one is injured physically & s/he won’t become a burden to anybody.

Does this mean that an unborn baby is a "noone" in Islamic teaching?

Moreover ,I can ‘t understand this point……..why other innocent people of a different country must pay for US sinners ?

In Iraq many of the killings are sectarian. While the US troops are often the ultimate target, many of the victims are fellow Muslims. So if The US is wrong, are the Iraqis also wrong?

Why not punish the sinners instead of killing hundreds innocent lives ? How many doctors are there in abortion clinics ? If u kill them all , then there will be no baby killing in USA ………how about that ?

In the US, we can punish murder in many states with death. Murder has a legal definition which has changed over time. If we wish to exact punishment on abortion providers we can change the laws, and many want to do so. However, if we are all free to exact punishment based on a whim, then noone would remain alive except for the killers.

 

[ibrarfaiz]

To the guy who replied after me:

Look the toic says whos life is more precious to God, we do not know God on that level and we can not know him on that level, we cannot decide who he likes and who he doesnt and the topic title has nothingn to do with politics and also u can elect a government that is good doesnt necessarily have to involve all of this nonsense

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace

... The above individual has made a statement which I take to be contradictory.

--u are talking about a young boy whose mom was gang raped in his presence in their home.


U can't expect from him right now that he can forgive Americans.

Insha Allah ( God Willing ) , someday this unfortunate boy will be able to understand that because of Bush & some bad soldiers , we must not hate all Americans.

Does this mean that an unborn baby is a "noone" in Islamic teaching?

--who told u so ? In Islam , killing innocent person including murdering unborn babies are considered as a major sin.


Many US Christians gave much importance on unborn babies who may or may not born in the world in next 2/3/4 years than the today's living human being / people of Iraq. They gave importance on numbers only.

That's why i m trying to say that , we are not only numbers. so , to save unborn babies from possible abortions , how justified it's to support Iraq war ? Specially the war which started on lies.


Not only innocent people are dyeing there , many are becoming physically disabled forever , many children are watching their mom & sisters being raped.....how many future terrorists are creating there ?

In Iraq many of the killings are sectarian. While the US troops are often the ultimate target, many of the victims are fellow Muslims. So if The US is wrong, are the Iraqis also wrong?

------I answered to this question earlier .....if US army can't stop killing / sect violence there , no need to stay for them to watch it.

........... if we are all free to exact punishment based on a whim, then noone would remain alive except for the killers.

--- Killing innocent is justified & punishing sinners is a whim ??????


to many American Christians , number of death was imp & they calculated that electing Bush will save more babies in USA than the war can kill Iraqi people. So , if number is imp to u , killing doctors of abortion clicins should be a more easy way to stop more killing .....why it' s a whim ?


Read ur holy book , u will find many punishments prescribed for the sinners. Instead of punishing innocents , should not US Christians think about punishing the sinners including those who are committing adultery , killing babies outside marriage etc ,etc ?


for God's sake , don't say that Jesus (p) told u to forgive sinners & punish the innocent people including hundreds ( if not thousands ) kids .

 

[Muslim Woman]

Look the topic says whos life is more precious to God......the topic title has nothingn to do with politics

may be , the title is not well written & also because of my bad English , i can't express my thought on the issue clearly but it has nothing against Islam .......why are u so upset ?

we do not know God on that level

God sent us holy book & based on it , I can safely say that God does not allow us to punish innocent people to save sinners / let them enjoy their sinful life styles.