Why are some christian missionaries so opportunist ?

[Grace Seeker]

Seems we've got universal agreement from Christians, Muslims, and those with no religious beliefs of both the impropriety and futility of anyone who would think that a bribed conversion is of any purpose. Makes one wonder why those who engage in the practice do it?

 

[Ramadhan]

Seems we've got universal agreement from Christians, Muslims, and those with no religious beliefs of both the impropriety and futility of anyone who would think that a bribed conversion is of any purpose. Makes one wonder why those who engage in the practice do it?

Maybe you can ask your missionaries friends who work in thirld world or underdeveloped countries why they do it?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe you can ask your missionaries friends who work in thirld world or underdeveloped countries why they do it?

I've already shared what those missionaries I know do, and it doesn't correspond with these behaviors we all malign. I know a few local churches that bribe kids to get them to ride the church bus on Sunday morning -- things like candy underneath the seat. They do it to increase their numbers and with the hopes that a child they are able to reach that othewsie wouldn't attend will one day come to saving faith. But even then, they realize that such activities only get them in the door to share the gospel, and that conversion is another thing entirely. So, I don't have contact with any people who are doing what is described here to ask.

 

[aadil77]

I've already shared what those missionaries I know do, and it doesn't correspond with these behaviors we all malign. I know a few local churches that bribe kids to get them to ride the church bus on Sunday morning -- things like candy underneath the seat. They do it to increase their numbers and with the hopes that a child they are able to reach that othewsie wouldn't attend will one day come to saving faith. But even then, they realize that such activities only get them in the door to share the gospel, and that conversion is another thing entirely. So, I don't have contact with any people who are doing what is described here to ask.

lol thanks for being open enough to share that, I can understand encouraging kids but not bribing them, I can't think of anything similar in masjids or madrasas - its usually just parents who choose to send kids or not

 

[ardianto]

Maybe you can ask your missionaries friends who work in thirld world or underdeveloped countries why they do it?

There were some cases when those Christian missionaries pretend or act as Muslims and invite real Muslims to discuss about Islam. Then slowly they try to make real Muslims doubt to Islam.

 

[Woodrow]

Some of those "Missionary" tactics have been used on the reservations here. the end result is there are very many abandoned churches on the Reservations. While many of the Oglala on Pine Ridge claim to be Christian the majority still practice the old native religions. As soon as the Missionaries believe they have converted a clan and leave, the church is abandoned. I will give some credit to 2 Christian groups that do bonafide charity on Pine Ridge and do so without attempting to convert, those are the Lutherans and Methodists. Typically they will set up the donation and collection sites in Sioux Falls or Brookings 300 miles away and have the goods delivered to Pine ridge by Lakotah residents with no mention of religion. It is charity with no strings attached. The recipients receive the goods anonymously and with no restrictions or conditions involved. If I did not get involved with delivering some donations to Pine Ridge last year, I never would have known the source of the donations. The recipients were cold and hungry, they wanted their pain eased and had no need to get a talk about where the food and blankets came from.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I will give some credit to 2 Christian groups that do bonafide charity on Pine Ridge and do so without attempting to convert, those are the Lutherans and Methodists.

And see, these are the groups that I know. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and have been a United Methodist pastor for 28 years. Plus, for 4 years of that time, I served a Lutheran congregation. And while I can point to plenty of problems with both churches, missionaries bribing people is not a story I am familiar with inside either denomination.

Indeed, my only knowledge of United Methodist contact with Muslims came when my (AFS exchange) daughter Asli came to live with us. Just a few years before her community had been hit hard by a terrible earthquake and she had lost her home. The first emergency housing they had were tents with the name UMCOR stampped on the boxes they came out of. She knew this because her father was the mayor in the town, and thus it was through him that the tents were distributed. She had know idea what UMCOR meant or was about until we were talking about it one day and she said that she just knew it had something to do with a church in the USA. Well, I was able to tell her that UMCOR was a part of my United Methodist Church and stood for United Methodist Committee on Relief. Until that moment in our house, she had never meant anyone who could even make the connection for her.

UMCOR is involved in many places around the world doing both emergency relief efforts and long term efforts to make life more sustainable. And in those cases of long-term aid, we do not hesistate to share the gospel as we do our other ministries. But never is there the attempt to "buy" Christian conversions. As you point out Woodrow, unless the people are genuine in desiring to live as a Christian, they will eventually abandon it. So, we do the work, love the people and (where we have ongoing relationships) share the gospel. But to my knowledge (though I admit I have never been to Africa), never do we engage in the sort of subtrefuge that Marwen asked about at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Woodrow]

And see, these are the groups that I know. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and have been a United Methodist pastor for 28 years. Plus, for 4 years of that time, I served a Lutheran congregation. And while I can point to plenty of problems with both churches, missionaries bribing people is not a story I am familiar with inside either denomination.

Indeed, my only knowledge of United Methodist contact with Muslims came when my (AFS exchange) daughter Asli came to live with us. Just a few years before her community had been hit hard by a terrible earthquake and she had lost her home. The first emergency housing they had were tents with the name UMCOR stampped on the boxes they came out of. She knew this because her father was the mayor in the town, and thus it was through him that the tents were distributed. She had know idea what UMCOR meant or was about until we were talking about it one day and she said that she just knew it had something to do with a church in the USA. Well, I was able to tell her that UMCOR was a part of my United Methodist Church and stood for United Methodist Committee on Relief. Until that moment in our house, she had never meant anyone who could even make the connection for her.

UMCOR is involved in many places around the world doing both emergency relief efforts and long term efforts to make life more sustainable. And in those cases of long-term aid, we do not hesistate to share the gospel as we do our other ministries. But never is there the attempt to "buy" Christian conversions. As you point out Woodrow, unless the people are genuine in desiring to live as a Christian, they will eventually abandon it. So, we do the work, love the people and (where we have ongoing relationships) share the gospel. But to my knowledge (though I admit I have never been to Africa), never do we engage in the sort of subtrefuge that Marwen asked about at the beginning of this thread.

Peace Gene,

I do appreciate those who do genuine charity without using disaster as an opportunity to bribe potential members.

Sadly I have run into many of the other type out here on the reservations and in Africa and at one point I was one. It is not only an obnoxious act it serves no purpose and can actually turn people against God(swt). I find this to be mostly a practice of the non organized independent churches. Although I know of some instances when some main stream churches resorted to it.

 

[glo]

Peace Gene,

I do appreciate those who do genuine charity without using disaster as an opportunity to bribe potential members.

Sadly I have run into many of the other type out here on the reservations and in Africa and at one point I was one. It is not only an obnoxious act it serves no purpose and can actually turn people against God(swt). I find this to be mostly a practice of the non organized independent churches. Although I know of some instances when some main stream churches resorted to it.

I think this raises the interesting question as to when it is or isn't appropriate to talk to people about one's faith.

For example, when giving out food parcels, would it be appropriate to say "We want you to have this because we follow the example of Jesus/Muhammad"? Would it be appropriate to add a Bible or Qu'ran verse to the food parcel, or an invitation to church/mosque (without any pressure added)?

Woodrow, when you visit people in the Reservation, how do you gauge when and if to talk about Islam?

 

[nousername]

The Mormon church in my city have targeted my family. The first time they came, I told them we are Muslims (my family) and they gave me some pamplets anyway. They just came a second time and this time they gave me more pamplets and said " Here, this will show you that the Bible is not man-made". It's really annoying

 

[islamirama]

The Mormon church in my city have targeted my family. The first time they came, I told them we are Muslims (my family) and they gave me some pamplets anyway. They just came a second time and this time they gave me more pamplets and said " Here, this will show you that the Bible is not man-made". It's really annoying

At that point i would rip it up and throw it on the ground and tell them the original Torah, Psalms, and Gospels were from God and the bible they hold is from Paul and tell them to stop harassing my family or is that what their bible paul teaches them followed by closing the door on them.

 

[Woodrow]

Woodrow, when you visit people in the Reservation, how do you gauge when and if to talk about Islam?

I can almost guarantee that within 5 minutes after stepping out of the car anyplace on Pine Ridge, somebody will ask me about my religious beliefs. My wife and myself do dress in accordance with Sunnah where ever we go. Usually the first question we get is something like "What kind of people are you?" When we answer we are Muslim, the questions come non-stop.

I recall one time we went way far off the normal "Tourist Path" in order to take pictures of Bison and a group of about 5 or 6 young men approached us from out of no where. Many on the Rez refuse to speak English, especially to strangers. I greeted them with "Hau Koda" they were very surprised to discover that I spoke at least a little Lakotah. Very soon we got into a long discussion about why I dress the way I do. It was quite interesting as the young men were dressed in traditional Sioux ceremonial clothing. They had just come from a tribal Wacipi.

The clothing of both of us became a source of conversation they also felt very comfortable talking with us as they recognized my wife was Native American and very pleased when I told them she is Cheyenne. Sioux men will not look directly at or speak to non-relative females. They were very happy to know she was content to sit in the car away from us while we spoke. All of this became part of our speaking to each other and before we knew it we had spent about an hour and a half talking about Islam. I didn't get any pictures of Bison, but I did make a least 2 good friends, who wanted to know more and ended up visiting the Mosque in Rapid City for a few months and are now Muslim.

 

[aadil77]

The Mormon church in my city have targeted my family. The first time they came, I told them we are Muslims (my family) and they gave me some pamplets anyway. They just came a second time and this time they gave me more pamplets and said " Here, this will show you that the Bible is not man-made". It's really annoying

Brother if they do that, turn the tables on them, its a perfect opportunity for dawah, invite them in and give them a copy of english quran translation, if they are persistent and annoying then I would just refute the hell out of christianity and see what they say

I've had jehovas witness's come to my house before, they offered me those leaflets, I said I'll accept these if you come round later and listen to what my religion has to say, they even agreed to it but didn't turn up. After that I've never had any jehovas witness's come to my house again.

 

[aadil77]

SubhanAllah brother woodrow, May Allah bless you for you efforts in dawah

It seems people from simple backgrounds who have very similar moral and character/mannerism teachings in their beliefs/culture are more inclined to islam, would you agree?

 

[Woodrow]

The Mormon church in my city have targeted my family. The first time they came, I told them we are Muslims (my family) and they gave me some pamplets anyway. They just came a second time and this time they gave me more pamplets and said " Here, this will show you that the Bible is not man-made". It's really annoying

Interesting, sounds more like JWs than Mormons. My wife was Mormon before reverting and when she was Mormon she did not believe the Bible alone was the word of God. She used to read the "Book of Mormon" and was taught that contained what was lost in the Bible.

Sounds like the Mormon's in your area are now trying a new approach. Typically Mormons leave pamphlets about the "Book of Mormon" and a copy of it. But I do agree Mormon's can be quite pushy. If I understand correctly each Mormon male has to spend part of his life as a "Missionary" and must remain as such until they convert a quota of people.

 

[Woodrow]

SubhanAllah brother woodrow, May Allah bless you for you efforts in dawah

It seems people from simple backgrounds who have very similar moral and character/mannerism teachings in their beliefs/culture are more inclined to islam, would you agree?

I do agree. I find the traditional culture of the Oglala Sioux to be based upon the same moral values that Islam teaches. The modesty regarding clothing and mingling of genders is very much the same. The old traditional ways do not allow for free mixing of genders. The love of all the gifts of Allaah(swt) is very admirable. To them all of life is a prayer, each thought and action. Islam seems to be the natural choice for them when they understand it. I see very little in the traditional culture that is forbidden in Islam. Islam enhances and adds to what they already have. It is sort of like saying that the traditional culture is already 98% of the way to Islam, one or 2 more steps and they are Muslim.

The more I interact with Native Americans especially the Lakotah Tribes (those who speak Lakotah which includes all the Sioux Nation along with the Cheyenne, Arapaho and Crow), The Cherokee and the Ojibwa the more I believe that at one time they had been Muslim and had lost part of what they were originally taught.

I find that while many of the Lakotah publically profess to be Christian, in private they return to the ancient beliefs and speak of hatred against all Wasichu (Wasichu while literally meaning whiteman actually refers to any who do not worship Wakan Tanka alone) Often when I speak about Allaah(swt) I am told it sounds like I am talking about the same one God they call Wakan Tanka. Wakan Tanka translates into English as God(swt)

 

[Pygoscelis]

Brother if they do that, turn the tables on them, its a perfect opportunity for dawah, invite them in and give them a copy of english quran translation, if they are persistent and annoying then I would just refute the hell out of christianity and see what they say

I've had jehovas witness's come to my house before, they offered me those leaflets, I said I'll accept these if you come round later and listen to what my religion has to say, they even agreed to it but didn't turn up. After that I've never had any jehovas witness's come to my house again.

This the best way to get rid of both mormons and jehovas witnesses. Do some homework first. Learn their beliefs and then start questioning them. Ask Jehovas Witnesses about blood transfusions and poke lots of holes in the bible stories (which is really easy if you read them - most jehovas witnesses beleive it or not have not read them for themselves in the original or near-original script). Ask the mormon about magic underwear, etc. If they keep coming after that, I'd start hitting on the same-sex ones or answering the door in the nude. That'll get rid of them.

 

[aadil77]

This the best way to get rid of both mormons and jehovas witnesses. Do some homework first. Learn their beliefs and then start questioning them. Ask Jehovas Witnesses about blood transfusions and poke lots of holes in the bible stories (which is really easy if you read them - most jehovas witnesses beleive it or not have not read them for themselves in the original or near-original script). Ask the mormon about magic underwear, etc. If they keep coming after that, I'd start hitting on the same-sex ones or answering the door in the nude. That'll get rid of them.

'magic underwear' are you serious?, when I hear the word 'mormon' I already have this image of little elves and dwarfs from fantasy land turning up at my door

Bible stories ares are an easy way though

 

[Pygoscelis]

'magic underwear' are you serious?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eNjTUz7TJs&feature=player_embedded

 

[Supreme]

Jehovahs Witnesses are the laughing stock of Christianity. I don't hate them, I just find immense fault in their beliefs. They're also the closest thing religion has to a doorstep salesman. They always used to come for a cup of coffee with my father- he was ever so kind, despite his atheist beliefs and urge to throw them out.