Why aren't the Nun's considered Opressed?

[Ummu Sufyaan]

I suppose I should ask: in a so called 'muslim state', how much freedom do you feel is available to you in these matters? I'm genuinely interested to know.

counter question: how much freedom do i have in a western/non-Islamic state?

could i talk about matters (for example) warfare, or anything that is considered (to that particular law) to violate the general safety and the safety of the citizens of that state? would i be allowed to give my wealth towards a cause which may harm the existence of that state and the well being of its citizens?

what if i preached for men to rape women? would that be acceptable?
what about if i was all for drink driving?
how about if i plotted to kill the head of that state? would that be acceptable?


by living in that state i
1) know/agree to its laws and know/agree what will happen me if i violate those laws.
2) im fully aware of what that law approves of and what it doesn't approve of, which im guessing that since im a citizen of that state, i would know what is acceptable and what isn't.

thus

it is MY fault only if i get punished since everything has been made clear to me and i choose to violate that law.


what would become of me? would i not get punished accordingly? if i was that much of a threat, wouldn't i be exiled or something to that affect?

if i dont like that state, its time i pick myself up and go elsewhere. there is no point or justice on my part if i stay there, whilst 1) it is been made clear to me that what im allowed/not allowed to do and 2) i have violated the laws
it is completely my fault if i stay here and argue that it is unjust of that state to hand down its law though when i chosen to accept it.

do you know why america is in iraq? do you know why so many of my brohters and sisters are locked up in prisnors? becuase the events that had lead to the war in Iraq and the actions of those prisoner as considered to be a threat/violation of the American law.

p.s i don't believe the war in iraq is justified nor do i believe that those prisoners are guilty..thats a different topic for a different time, but i used it as an ex maple expand on my point.

 

[GreyKode]

very interesting conclusions, Ezekiel_B .so basically what you are implying and saying is that since the nun decided to become a nun-then Catholicism has forced her not to get married and bear children?

Indeed lucky her, she has truly become free from the clutches of marraige.

 

[Woodrow]

Ah! Yes... I see what you mean, Ummu. Yes, perfectly clear, thankyou.

In a sense it is a form of 'symbolic punishment' I suppose. More importantly, I assume you are talking about people who have decided to convert to Islam? Well - and correct me if I'm wrong; I guess when this occurs in the Western world, we may be seeing more mitigated forms of the laws in practice? Largely due to the laws of the land they happen to be in at the time. I suppose I should ask: in a so called 'muslim state', how much freedom do you feel is available to you in these matters? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Well I am pleased you call it (a so called 'Muslim state') as no true Islamic state exists today and I agree in some of those states abuses do occur. But not on the level the media would have people believe. There is considerable freedom for women in these 'oppressed' states. Perhaps one day you will have the opportunity to travel throughout the Mideast and see the reality not the sensationalism of the media.

We have several women from Islamic Nations as members on this forum, perhaps some of them will notice this thread and give you their views.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Another difference would be that the muslim women you're talking about are ordinary citizens, whereas nuns are of a specialised order, which is not only entered into voluntarily, but is also strictly regulated in terms of who can join. They must qualify to gain a position in the covent, through a series of tests, which can take many years (depending on the order) but, as I have come to understand it, muslim women are simply born into their tradition and live it through, quite as a matter of routine.

^ I think that is the key difference here.

Although it has happened in history that children are forced into convents and forced to be nuns, its has been rare and was never the norm for christians. Muslims on the other hand are indoctrinated as young children before they have developed the capacity to make a meaningful choice about it, and the head covering thing applies (or seemingly applies) to everybody and not just the special order as you mentioned.

As I said before though, I really don't think anybody should see wearing a clothing item (or not wearing clothing items) as oppression. There are a lot of misapprehensions about this in both directions (as the part a few pages ago about burka vs nudist showed).

I think the misapprehension regarding the muslima has more to do with the image of Islam as a whole in modern day than the fact that a hat/mask is being worn. I don't think many of us cared about hajib/birka before 9/11 and 7/7 and all the resulting anti-muslim hysteria.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

I see, so what you're saying is really that you're happy to abide by those Islamic dress laws and forego dressing like a scantily clad harlot, in return for a sense of pride and dignity. Well, I must say...! It's rather hard to knock! So it seems no sister of Islam has any real interest in attracting men other than her husband. Again - what can I say against that!? Nothing. Now, I hear that women of Islam may dress sexy at home, before their own husband only. So it seems as though you can appreciate what it is like to wear nice clothes - except you prefer to keep that in a private context. But, what I'm interested to know - is there any penalty (apart from inner shame) given to those who decide they would like to wear more revealing clothes on the street?

I say this, because I have spoken to some gentlemen of Islamic faith in my area and they seems quite convinced that the average western woman is dressed like a cheap **** (as they put it). We're not talking about skirts so short that they show the knickers or bra-less wonders who seem to be popping out tea-bag sized tops... no. They seemed to be implying that because my girlfriend likes to adorn her figure with beautiful dark, gothic ballgowns and take full advantage of her cleavage and her attractive features with make-up, that she is somehow acting like a prostitute! Now, I'm a reasonable man - she is still dressed very decently, even by all conservative standards... so I managed to laugh it off... but some people might not see the funny side and land the fellow one on the nose, for his cheek!

I did not say "get out of the country if you don't like it" or any words to that effect, as I wished not to show him I was offended - or even bothered by his opinion. I don't think it was very nice - especially since my lady is a most honourable woman, who has eyes only for me. Also, I trust the gentlemen in my own peer group not to try and interfere with her, either. Why would they? They respect her as their friend.

So you see, in secular society, much of the issue of 'lust' is governed by the individual's self control, sense of respect and what we call 'common decency'. It's innate. I actually refuse to believe that asian men are all drooling lust-bags, who would suddenly become uncontrollable sexual animals, were they to suddenly behold a fair (or dark) maiden strutting her fun-bags before their eyes. I am convinced they must have enough self control and honour, to behave as gentlemen. So I find it rather interesting that laws like this might come about at all, in the first place. I'm familiar with sexual repression, obviously, as I have in the past also been surrounded by christians, who think rather much the same, only to a much lesser degree, when it comes to the lengths they will go to cover their bodies.

But if that's how you choose to dress, then who am I to critisize? Maybe sometimes, it is what you don't see, which makes things more exciting? Perhaps we, in the west, have become somewhat numbed by the onslaught of constant sexual titilation? I mean, everywhere you go, in western society, we are being bombarded with sex - because it sells. I don't, however, personally believe that it is this which increases the dangers of rape, though there have been certain women in our secular society in the past saying that using the sexual charms of females to aid advertising is exploiting women and igniting the passions of dangerous predators. You see, even we non-religious secular people are often very divided on this issue, amongst ourselves!

Personally, I think, statistically, I could get knocked down by a truck whilst crossing the road at any time and that life is dangerous as a by product of living it to the full. I wouldn't stay indoors just to avoid such a probability. I could just as easily have an accident at home. Therefore, I think it is much the same with sex crime in the western cities. I don't actually believe that a full hijab would deter a man, where he to be so determined to commit rape.

But there we have it. I know we're talking about values here, rather than these dangers - but I suppose those values must come from somewhere...

Anway, thank you for a most interesting and informative chat. It's been a pleasure talking with you!

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace



edited

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace



"EVER WONDER WHY?"

Why a Jew can grow his beard and he is just practicing his faith and he has his freedom?
But when Muslim does the same, he is an extremist and terrorist!


Why a nun can be covered from head to toe and she is respected for devoting her self to God?

But when Muslimah does the same she oppressed and they are reactionary!

When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household?

But when a Muslim woman does so by her Will, because Islam don't prevent Muslim women from work they say, "she needs to be liberated"!

full post here :
http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/poem3.asp

http://english.islamway.com/flashpage.php?id=10&cat=2&file_name=ever_wonder&width=550&hight=400

 

[Grace Seeker]

Or for that matter, every wonder why...
When a Christian critiques his own faith, he is finally honest and there is feigned surprise that he has admitted that it is somehow less than perfect?

But when a Christian critiques Islam or asks questions of it, he is making up things, talking about culture not Islam, arrogant, guilty of "springing surprises", and practicing Islamaphobia?

 

[Predator]

Or for that matter, every wonder why...
When a Christian critiques his own faith, he is finally honest and there is feigned surprise that he has admitted that it is somehow less than perfect?

But when a Christian critiques Islam or asks questions of it, he is making up things, talking about culture not Islam, arrogant, guilty of "springing surprises", and practicing Islamaphobia?

Exactly . Islam is the based on both faith and proof and the religion of truth, and its laws and solutions are applicable to all the ages. The Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth without contradictions and which has maintained its purity and authenticity proving itself to be the word of God in all the ages and there would never be another group of people that can "show a candle" to Muslims in morality, brotherhood, piety , sobriety , ethics, hygiene and hospitality

 

[Ramadhan]

The reason I say this is because nuns come into their order by choice, as young women - and not in the same way as we see muslim girls being indoctrinated into the ways of Islamic culture from a very young age.

Although it has happened in history that children are forced into convents and forced to be nuns, its has been rare and was never the norm for christians. Muslims on the other hand are indoctrinated as young children before they have developed the capacity to make a meaningful choice about it, and the head covering thing applies (or seemingly applies) to everybody and not just the special order as you mentioned.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have ACTUALLY met a muslim AT ALL since your opinions about muslims in general, and especially in this case about hijab-wearing muslimah are so uninformed and erroneous.
Did you guys not read my previous post about hijab-wearing muslimah in Indonesia?

Most muslimah in Indonesia started wearing hijab in the past 10-15 years, so that means most muslimah who are wearing hijab today made the conscious decision when they were already adult. Example: my own mother started wearing hijab when she was 44, and that was after my father died (so you non-muslims cannot say that my father forced to wear hijab).
Another example: last week one of my work colleagues also started wearing hijab, she was not "indoctrinased to wear hijab when she was little".
She used to be one of those "party girls" who I urged to study Islam in depth and alhamdulillaah she is now a much better person and much better muslimah.

On the other hand, muslim women are subject to arranged marriages and become what the average western observer might percieve of as being in some way 'the property' of the man, within that marriage.

I was born a muslim, i have very large extended family (my father has a total of 11 siblings and mother 8) in the LARGEST muslim country in the world, and I have never heard a muslimah whom I know personally who have been subjected to arranged marriages.
I am surprised that you know something about islam and muslims that I do not know of, or maybe it is all in your imagination?
Maybe you should check with your local psychiatrist?

To the observer of Islam, it would also appear that the 'choice' has already been made for the girl, whilst somehow forging a masquerade of choice in the matter. The point being that when children are brought up strictly within the confines of Islamic culture, knowing very little outside of that, the question would be: what other other choices are they presented with? So when a muslim woman says she wears the all-encompassing black robes by choice... one is forced to wonder what alternatives are available to her.

You know what, in this so called "modern" world, even in the largest muslim country in the world, peple are bombardised by images through magazines, televisions, popular cultures etc whcih shows women how to dress (or rather how to undress). Especially in the western world, when you say there is choice, there is actually not much choice. since little girls, the women in the western countries through popular culture are conditioned and indoctrinised what to dress (sexy is better), how to dress (or undress), how to behave (like a *****), so you see that women who wear very very modest clothes in the west are normally not very popular and most consider them strange or weird.
And this even applies in most cases (especially in big cities) in Indonesia, so you see that if a woman decide to wear hijab, it actually shows more her strength, her resolute and her INDEPENDENCE rathen than succumbing to what society (or pop culture) dictate.

This is in sharp contrast to certain laws in muslim countries, which we have become aware of, in which the penalty for apostasy appears to be clearly defined.

and what is that? I actually know one or two "muslims" who apostated because of marriage, and I know a number of poor muslims who apostated because of economic reasons but nothing happened to them.
I live in the LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY in the world, by the way.

 

[S.Belle]

Or for that matter, every wonder why...
When a Christian critiques his own faith, he is finally honest and there is feigned surprise that he has admitted that it is somehow less than perfect?

But when a Christian critiques Islam or asks questions of it, he is making up things, talking about culture not Islam, arrogant, guilty of "springing surprises", and practicing Islamaphobia?

That is because Islam is perfect there is no need to question every aspect of it all one needs to do is pick up the Quran or read a hadith about a certain question one has and you will easily find it. It is your choice on whether or not to believe and accept it.

 

[Ramadhan]

That is because Islam is perfect there is no need to question every aspect of it all one needs to do is pick up the Quran or read a hadith about a certain question one has and you will easily find it. It is your choice on whether or not to believe and accept it.

I agree.
I always read about one the most common reasons why a person left christianity:
the more they ask about christiniaty, the more questions they get (instead of answers)
Hence most atheists and agnostics we have today are former christians (I'm sure most of our resident atheist and agnostics were born christians)

while in Islam, the more you study islam with sincerity, the more it makes perfect sense.

 

[S.Belle]

I agree.
I always read about one the most common reasons why a person left christianity:
the more they ask about christiniaty, the more questions they get (instead of answers)

yes that is why I left Christanity Islam made more sense and it isnot only a religion but a way of life I didnt feel that way with Christanity

 

[Grace Seeker]

yes that is why I left Christanity Islam made more sense and it isnot only a religion but a way of life I didnt feel that way with Christanity

How is it that you were taught or came to feel that Christianity was NOT a way of life?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

....But when a Christian critiques Islam or asks questions of it, he is making up things,

pl. give specific examples. Sometimes I read news that non-Muslims claim to ban Quran because it has verses on war & kiling. I never saw media mention that Torah , Bible have more verses on war & killing.

Media condemn Islam for polygamy as if Quran started it. Media/ non-Muslims never say that many Prophets pbut and their respected figures also had more than one wife.

Always Muslims husbands torture wives but when women in the west are abused , it's not the fault of non-Muslim men.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/Peace



pl. give specific examples.

Examples of what? That when a Christian asks questions of Islam that he is accused of making things up.

Sure, I think this qualifies as being accused of making things up:

how can a pastor spew lies?

And what is my supposed lie? Asking this question:

Then why is it that there is such a discrepancy in actual practice?

And don't tell me that it is a lie. I'm asking why Islam teaches one thing and yet we see another thing practiced. Woodrow even confessed that we do see other things practiced:

Peace Gene,
actually if Shariah law was followed, it would be virtually impossible to find sufficient proof to stone a man or woman for adultery. Sadly stonings do occur, although not legal under shariah but legalized by some nations and by vigilante type groups. As best as can be determined not one person has ever been legally stoned for adultery under shariah. But [people] have been [stoned] under state law calling itself shariah.

I think the question remains valid. Why, where Islam is most dominant, so much so that nations enact laws that they claim represent shariah law (even though Woodrow says they don't really), why does the practice not keep with what everyone here says is true Islamic teaching? Especially when, Islam is not just a creed, but a way of life. Isn't to do those things that are diameterically opposed to the teachings of Islam to by not just unsubmissive, but down right rebellious toward Allah? How can such things be condoned in a state that claims to be attempting to enforce at least portions of shariah law? The actions and the words don't jibe.

And as far as men and women being treated equally, in 2002 alone, over 382 people, about 245 women and 137 men, became victims of honor killings in the Sindh province of Pakistan. Though it would seem that both genders are equally culpable, I suppose this discrpenancy should not be understood as unequal treatment, but just the result of women being twice as easy to catch as men. When, in 2005, a bill was proposed in Pakistan that would strengthen legislation against honor killings the parliament rejected the bill by a majority vote, "declaring it to be un-Islamic." (source: BBC News, 2 March 2005)

Jordan, considered one of the most liberal countries in the Middle East still witnesses instances of honor killings. In Jordan there is minimal gender discrimination and women are permitted to vote, but men receive reduced sentences for killing their wives or female family members if they have brought dishonor to their family. Rana Husseini, a leading journalist on the topic of honor killings, states that “under the existing law, people found guilty of committing honor killings often receive sentences as light as six months in prison”. (source: Rueters AlertNet 18 April 2005)

According to the Christian Science Monitor (March 2005) honor crimes account for 1/3 of all violent deaths in Jordan. And though they are done to restore what is supposedly lost honor to the family, over 70% of all female victims of such crimes are discovered in post-mortem to be virgins.

Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University in Amman told IRIN "it was a cultural practice that falsely interprets religion to allow murder to be justified. So, although Islam does not sanction such killings, most honour crimes occur in Muslim societies." (source: Reuters) You see, it is not just my opinion that there is a wedding of culture and religion that is producing this outcome, and I would think Muslims would want to address, not deny it.

But some seem to think that the responsibility lays with women more than men:

"Women adulterers cause a great threat to our society because they are the main reason that such acts take place," said Mohammed Kharabsheh, a Jordanian parliamentarian said. "If men do not find women with whom to commit adultery, then they will become good on their own."

I submit that such views, if held by society at large, would be a form of oppression.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Or for that matter, every wonder why...
When a Christian critiques his own faith, he is finally honest and there is feigned surprise that he has admitted that it is somehow less than perfect?

yes, becuase Islam is the truth.

But when a Christian critiques Islam or asks questions of it, he is making up things, talking about culture not Islam, arrogant, guilty of "springing surprises", and practicing Islamaphobia?

Wrong. When a christian doesn't sincerely and genuinely care to ask for about it, but rather comes along thinking they know everything, couldn't care less for explanations and throws indirect insults
that's when they will get disputed with. However when Christians actually bother to ask politely (you might not recognize it here, that "breed" of Christians is rather rare on this forum) then likewise, you will be met with politeness.

as long as you keep u p your haughty attitude, then no prizes for guessing whats going to happen.

 

[titus]

That is because Islam is perfect there is no need to question every aspect of it all one needs to do is pick up the Quran or read a hadith about a certain question one has and you will easily find it.

Easily find it?

Then why the need for scholars to answer questions? Scholars aren't a luxury in Islam, they are a necessity, and the reason is because the answers are not easy to find, and in fact they often disagree with each other.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

"EVER WONDER WHY?" Why a Jew can grow his beard and he is just practicing his faith and he has his freedom? But when Muslim does the same, he is an extremist and terrorist!

And how often does that occur?

Ever wonder why... when I wear a long, black leather trenchcoat and I am just exercising my taste in fashion, I am a satanist and possibly a potential 'Columbine-style' shot-gun killer...?

I have myself been on the receiving end of such irrational association by christians, and muslims alike...

Looking at the above paragraph it appears muslims and christians are both as guilty of prejudice as any person of the mixed west who has not sat down to study the issues or considered the statistical evidence of just how many people with long beards are plotting to plant bombs and how many people in leather trench coats actually want to kill them with a shotgun or sodomize their children, in the name of Satan.

If you live in the west you must be prepared to sometimes encounter those of lesser education and social understanding. Nowhere on earth is perfect, though I sometimes wish it could be different. What you are experiencing is the result of mixing people from differing cultures and appearances together, in one place.

Sometimes, all we can do is weigh the disadvantages of living in a free and mixed society, with it's benefits; perhaps, in the same way as we would weigh the beauty & solitude of the desert with it's scarcity of fresh water.

How often do you and I hear the prejudicial cries of false accusation, brought on by our appearance? Is it every day? Every week? Once a month? Or does it vary enough to suggest there will always be a minority of ill-educated souls who find it hard to seperate tabloid rhetoric from actual truth and statistical evidence?

It is interesting, is it not, to discover that belief, without evidence.... is everywhere.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Then why the need for scholars to answer questions? Scholars aren't a luxury in Islam, they are a necessity, and the reason is because the answers are not easy to find, and in fact they scholars often disagree with each other.

the scholars are used to explain if you will, what Islam is to the laymen/ordinary Muslim. how, as a laymen, are you going to know what a verse or hadith means without the proper knowledge? the verse and hadith are in Arabic and i doubt even a native Arab would understand what they are supposed to mean. thats what the scholar is there for. ordinary folk don't understand this type of things.