Why aren't you a muslim?

[Tornado]

However, the point of hell is to inflict misery. Is hell really necessary? Why not give the followers an afterlife and let the rest have nothing. If there really is a personal god, I would consider just life itself a punishment. I don't see the point of hell and also, I don't see a point of a heaven. If I were a religious person, I would abide by the rules so that I wouldn't be put into hell, and not because I would get to go to heaven.

Of course, just because I say it makes no sense to me doesn't mean I can say that there isn't such a god, I just don't see the point.

 

[جوري]

However, the point of hell is to inflict misery. Is hell really necessary? Why not give the followers an afterlife and let the rest have nothing. If there really is a personal god, I would consider just life itself a punishment. I don't see the point of hell and also, I don't see a point of a heaven. If I were a religious person, I would abide by the rules so that I wouldn't be put into hell, and not because I would get to go to heaven.

Of course, just because I say it makes no sense to me doesn't mean I can say that there isn't such a god, I just don't see the point.

I think it is great to be granted immortality..
you are right life, is pretty miserable on its own.. but even in its misery there is amazing delights that we take for granted, already many I have attempted to mention in the agnostics/atheist thread.. I don't feel like a 'left shift' but I digress...
I'll assume that you work for a living? or desire to work for a living? that can seem pointless and time consuming, but through our work, we grow, we establish autonomy, we earn our wages, there are benefits,we contribute and help out communities and in turn feel better about ourselves.. and most of the time if we desire a dignified life really there is no way around it, so you see even rich millionaires who have a slight level head of their shoulder, in lieu of wasting life on debauchery and lechery, continue to work, do charity, improve their products.. There are people who have no work ethics, don't care, and an onslaught of other things I have no desire to get into...

bottom line is most thinking, reflecting folks do it for all its good and bad, they do it..

and most folks who have a desire for even more, take provisions like wise for the life to come..
God really asks so little of us..
and that which he asks of us for the most part if for our worldly benefit if nothing else at all.. let alone, heaven's high meed and smiling that one is free from all of this..

Regards
M

 

[Whatsthepoint]

the word for intelligence in Arabic is zaka'a, nabaha, fatana
the word for 3aqal even as per dictionary

فــــعــــــــل جَعَلَهُ عاقِلًا ​

make reasonable or rational , bring to reason make reasonable or rational ..

The hadith therefore renders women more emotional.. and that is in fact scientifically true http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2576
Women tend to be caregivers, more empathetic and more verbal: "Those traits are reflected in brain mechanisms."

Perhaps you're right, but is that a reason enough why women can't be heads of state, why a woman's testimony is worth half a man's testimony, why women can't vote in an Islamic state etc?

 

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson,

If someone is being rude, it's understandable that people get offended. The fact is, though, that there are many topics about Islam that are incredibly difficult or impossible to discuss without the conversation being shut down by figures in authority.

Surely you don't see that as a problem with the faith itself though, right?

Regards

 

[جوري]

Perhaps you're right, but is that a reason enough why women can't be heads of state, why a woman's testimony is worth half a man's testimony, why women can't vote in an Islamic state etc?

All your queries are addressed in the Ansar Al' Adl post, if you'll bother read it?

other than that, who says a woman can't get a vote in an Islamic state? women voting is mentioned in the Quran, women have held very high states in Govt, as jury for instance under Islamic state or do you make up whimsy as you go along?

Perhaps you shouldn't get your religions mixed up?

cheers

 

[Gator]

Hi. I guess the primary reason's I'm not a muslim are:

- I don't believe a god exists (i know you said beside that but its a biggy)

- Assuming a god, it doesn't seem reasonable to me that he would provide his "final" message through an angel to a person in the 1400's middle east, which would then be compiled in a book years after his death.

- My reason and heart (in the poetic sense) tells me some things taught in islam are wrong (to kill and horribly punish people under certain circumstances I disagree with, homosexuals are bad, music is bad, interest is bad, slavery ok, etc.) If I were to believe in a religion I would hope NONE of its tenents would appear wrong.

- The koran itself takes a lot of time saying its the truth and threatening non-believers with punishment (which is, as mentioned above, eternal mind you), which to me is like the old joke "Truth is like being a lady (if you have to tell people you are, you ain't)".

These are the main general things, if requested I can give more of the ticky tack small things.

I will honor the request for no debate and not debate or answer any posts challenging my points. If you would like to PM me or create another thread, that is fine with me.

I'll do the good things in another post.

Thanks.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

All your queries are addressed in the Ansar Al' Adl post, if you'll bother read it?

other than that, who says a woman can't get a vote in an Islamic state? women voting is mentioned in the Quran, women have held very high states in Govt, as jury for instance under Islamic state or do you make up whimsy as you go along?

Perhaps you shouldn't get your religions mixed up?

cheers

I have read it and it doesn't say anything about why a woman's testimony is unequal to that of a man, nor why women cannot be heads of state.
Well, Faye said it:
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...rbaric-oppressive-closer-look.html#post993123
Of course she is no authority, though her post is the only one I read that clearly adresses the issue.
In which verse is women voting mentioned?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Hi. I guess the primary reason's I'm not a muslim are:

- I don't believe a god exists (i know you said beside that but its a biggy)

- Assuming a god, it doesn't seem reasonable to me that he would provide his "final" message through an angel to a person in the 1400's middle east, which would then be compiled in a book years after his death.

- My reason and heart (in the poetic sense) tells me some things taught in islam are wrong (to kill and horribly punish people under certain circumstances I disagree with, homosexuals are bad, music is bad, interest is bad, slavery ok, etc.) If I were to believe in a religion I would hope NONE of its tenents would appear wrong.

- The koran itself takes a lot of time saying its the truth and threatening non-believers with punishment (which is, as mentioned above, eternal mind you), which to me is like the old joke "Truth is like being a lady (if you have to tell people you are, you ain't)".

These are the main general things, if requested I can give more of the ticky tack small things.

I will honor the request for no debate and not debate or answer any posts challenging my points. If you would like to PM me or create another thread, that is fine with me.

I'll do the good things in another post.

Thanks.

I completely agree with Gator's posts and I'm gonna add some of my points later.

 

[barney]

Heya.

I'm not a muslim because:
1)I find hundreds of inconsistancies and statements that have been scientifically proved incorrect in the Koran and Hadiths also dogmas that in my opinion are about control and subjigation.
2)It is my beleif that it is 100% the work of humans.
3) The history of the collection and inscribing of it would cancel out divine authenticity by my standards too.
4)I have seen nor read nor heard of any interaction between a deity and humanity that holds any water. If it can interact, why dosnt it? Or is it malevolent or chaotic?
5)Allah is purported to be the same God as "Yahweh". I wouldnt associate myself with such an entity even if it was real.
6) Evolution offers a measurable and tangible explaination of how we are here. Humanism offers purpose and reason.

 

[Amadeus85]

I have read it and it doesn't say anything about why a woman's testimony is unequal to that of a man, nor why women cannot be heads of state.
Well, Faye said it:
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...rbaric-oppressive-closer-look.html#post993123
Of course she is no authority, though her post is the only one I read that clearly adresses the issue.
In which verse is women voting mentioned?

There was few months ago when islamic groups in Egypt Muslim Brotherhood made some proposals of new constitutions. One of them banned women and christians from being the presidents of future islamic republic of Egypt.

 

[جوري]

here is a list of women's rights in Islam
Women's Rights in Islam

By
Jacqueline S. Waheed



Following are some rights, which Muslim women have!

1. The RIGHT and duty to acquire education.

2. The RIGHT to have her own independent property.

3. The RIGHT to work [job or business] to earn money, which she keeps it.

4. The RIGHT to equal reward for equal deed and/or work.

5. The RIGHT to express her opinion.

6. The RIGHT to argue and/or advocate her cause or opinion to be heard.

7. The RIGHT to vote since 1,421 years.

8. The RIGHT to provisions from her husband for all her needs and more.

9. The RIGHT to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

10.The RIGHT to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply don't like him. In Islaam divorce is suppose to be last resort.

11.The RIGHT to keep all her own money. [She is not responsible for maintenance of family].

12.The RIGHT to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

13.The RIGHT to get custody of her children in case of divorce [unless she is unable to raise them for valid reasons]

14.The RIGHT to choose husband of her choice.

15.The RIGHT to refuse a proposed and/or arranged marriage.

16. The RIGHT to re-marry after divorce or after becoming widow.

EXEMPTIONS GIVEN TO WOMEN IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE.

Women are exempt from:

a.. Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,
b.. Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth,
c.. The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.
d.. They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defense of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.
But under normal circumstances they are allowed to do all the things that men do.

- Even when they are menstruating, on special days, like the two Eid festivals, they are still allowed to come to the Eid prayers, and menstruating women can take part in most of the actions of the Hajj pilgrimage.

Islamic laws does not requires that women should confine themselves to household duties.

Muslim women have [and are as well] headed Islamic provinces [and states as well], like Arwa bint Ahmad, who served as governor of Yemen under the Fatimid Khalifahs in the late fifth and early sixth century.

Name any other religion, political theory, or philosophy which offers such a comprehensiveness to women by giving her total control of her life and affairs ??? NONE

Think on this!


the word for voting in Islam is moba'ya'a, the women's vote was called mobaya3at an'nisa'a women voted by raising their hands whereas men vote by a handshake,,, men and women voted for the prophet, and since you are all experts on the Quran and science and women's rights, etc etc, your fingers and excellent minds can find your way to it... here it is in Arabic.. لقد رضى الله عن المؤمنين إذ يبايعونك تحت الشجرة فعلم ما فى قلوبهم فأنزل السكينة عليهم وأثابهم فتحا قريبا

I don't feel like engaging stupidity during the holy month, least of which the barnacle brain who knows as much about science as the pre Hopkins charlatans who sold liniments and embrocations out of wheeled bags and claimed a cure for all!

cheers

 

[Fazl Ahmad]

There is too much obsession with "women's rights" IMO. People think that unless a religion gives woman the power to do anything she wants without any restriction, it cannot be a true religion. For thousands of years of human history, woman had a status beneath men, than all of a sudden, like some eighty years ago, it is immoral to treat women the way we have been treating them for thousands of years!!!

 

[جوري]

Islam can't compare to any philosophy of religion when it comes to women's rights bar none ...
When did women gain the right to vote in the western world?

America

In 1848, at the Seneca Falls Convention in New York, activists including Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucretia Mott began a seventy year struggle to secure the right to vote for women.

England

In 1903, a number of members of the NUWSS broke away and, led by Emmeline Pankhurst, formed the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU). As the national media lost interest in the suffrage campaign, the WSPU decided it would use other methods to create publicity. This began in 1905 at a meeting where Sir Edward Grey, a member of the newly elected Liberal government, was speaking. As he was talking, two members of the WSPU constantly shouted out, 'Will the Liberal Government give votes to women?' When they refused to cease calling out, police were called to evict them and the two suffragettes (as members of the WSPU became known after this incident) were involved in a struggle which ended with them being arrested and charged for assault. When they refused to pay their fine, they were sent to prison. The British public were shocked and took notice at this use of violence to win the vote for women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage#United_States


well they have been voting under an Islamic state during the time of the prophet..
so pls give me a break, I am so sick of the sanctimonious bull

 

[barney]

Skye. Could you give a link or reference to women voting during the prophets time? I cant find anything.(lots on divorce rights and financial arrangements, but nothing on voting)

 

[Fazl Ahmad]

Skye. Could you give a link or reference to women voting during the prophets time? I cant find anything.(lots on divorce rights and financial arrangements, but nothing on voting)

I dont know what she is talking about. There was no voting in the lifetime of the Prophet (alaihi salatu wa salam), either men or women. I think maybe she is talking about the concept of ijma (concensus), this was how the first khalifa (Abu Bakr) succeeded the Prophet, all the senior people among the Prophet's companions (not including women) after a bit of arguing, agreed that Abu Bakr was the most pious person among them, and the most entitled to the caliphate. But that is completely different from western style of democracy.

 

[Fazl Ahmad]

I dont know what she is talking about. There was no voting in the lifetime of the Prophet (alaihi salatu wa salam), either men or women. I think maybe she is talking about the concept of ijma (concensus), this was how the first khalifa (Abu Bakr) succeeded the Prophet, a few senior people among the Prophet's companions (not including women) after a bit of arguing, agreed that Abu Bakr was the most pious person among them, and the most entitled to the caliphate. But that is completely different from western style of democracy.

 

[aamirsaab]

With regards to the female members of Islam (aka women), here is a collection of youtube videos to which I subscribed a couple of months ago.

I knew it would come in handy one day

Ta-Da!

 

[جوري]

I dont know what she is talking about. There was no voting in the lifetime of the Prophet (alaihi salatu wa salam), either men or women. I think maybe she is talking about the concept of ijma (concensus), this was how the first khalifa (Abu Bakr) succeeded the Prophet, all the senior people among the Prophet's companions (not including women) after a bit of arguing, agreed that Abu Bakr was the most pious person among them, and the most entitled to the caliphate. But that is completely different from western style of democracy.

Do you speak Arabic? What is this verse in reference to?

لقد رضى الله عن المؤمنين إذ يبايعونك تحت الشجرة فعلم ما فى قلوبهم فأنزل السكينة عليهم وأثابهم فتحا قريبا​

Islam has a shura system.. Governing under God's laws!

 

[Fazl Ahmad]

Shura is not the same thing as voting. Shura means consultation, plus woman do not have the right to be part of shura or become advisors to the ruler.

 

[جوري]

the verse is from suret al-fath.. known s by the name of Bay‘at Ar-Ridwan (a covenant of fealty). Where both Muslim men and women gave their allegiance under the tree, known to most as the first act of مبايعة النساء

then look at the word in the dictionary

مُبَايَعَة مـــصــــــدر بَيْعَة pledge of allegiance
تَوْلِيَة , تَنْصِيب
investment , induction , installment , investiture , nomination , inauguration , installation
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=%e3%c8%c7%ed%da%c9

and amazing things happen when you stick it in Arabic google search, for instance you will get this:

ذكر الأستاذ ميرزا الخويلدي في صحيفة الشرق الأوسط تاريخ 4/8/2005 بعض المواضع في السيرة النبوية التي بايعت فيها المرأة رسول الله عليه الصلاة والسلام وهي العقبة والرضوان ويوم الفتح؛ ولكن المرأة كانت موجودة في كل موقع يؤسس لنصرة دين الله ويساهم في بناء دولته, والأمثلة أكثر من أن تعد وتحصى, ويكفي أن نذكر أن أول من آمن هو امرأة وهي خديجة بنت خويلد, وقد سماها بعض الدارسين وزيرة الإسلام الأولى, وقد بقي الرسول يذكر فضلها حتى آخر أيامه, وأول شهيد في الإسلام كان امرأة هي سمية بنت خباط أم عمار بن ياسر ثبتت رغم التعذيب في حين أن ابنها لم يستطع ذلك مما جعله يرضخ للمشركين حين طلبوا منه شتم النبي, وإن كان الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام قد هوّن عليه ليخفف عنه شعوره بالذنب؛ وكما شهدت أم عمارة بيعة العقبة شهدت بيعة الرضوان يوم صلح الحديبية, ومعها جمع النساء اللواتي خرجن كما خرجت بعض نساء النبي عليه الصلاة والسلام, وكانت بيعة على الموت كما ذكر بعض الصحابة لأسباب معروفة في السيرة, وسميت بيعة الرضوان نسبة إلى الآيات في سورة الفتح التي أنزلت بعدها إذ أثنى الله على المبايعين في تلك المناسبة بقوله(إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللهَ)) وبقوله(لَقَدْ رَضِيَ اللهُ عَنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ يُبَايِعُونَكَ تَحْتَ الشَّجَرَةِ))؛ ومن لديه أقل معرفة باللغة العربية يعلم أن جمع المذكر السالم يشمل الأنثى كما الذكر, فإذا كان الله قد أدخل النساء في حلقة الرضا فلمَ يصرّ بعض المتفيقهين على إخراجهن منها؟ وإذا كانت المرأة حاضرة وبقوة في كل مواقف المبايعة والنصرة والفداء على عهد النبوة فلم يريدون للمرأة أن تنكفئ على ذاتها وتجلس في قعر بيتها بعد خمسة عشر قرناً من ذلك العهد المضيء؟

الوطن السعودية 8/8/2005

​

http://www.drlaila.com/www040.htm

ahhhhhhh mazing things happen when we read before we write!