Why did "God" come down to earth/appear specifically to the Jews?

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Not really, for even per your own 'saints' few have followed him- and let's face it christians who are clueless are a dime a dozen. The true message of Jesus was that of Pure monotheistic Islam and pure unadulterated Judaism, mandean, sabeans before that. There was no self immolating man God worship involved & it certainly wasn't a voted on pagan religion decided by the nicene council or saul the charlatan.
Not sure what you're hoping to accomplish here but do hope you see the gross errors of your ways before it is too late. God doesn't eat sins... you earn the bed you find yourself in.

As for Islam God is never distant. I have already quoted you the hadith Qudsi above. Nothing is comprable to that in Christianity. Nothing but a god who couldn't save himself.
best,
 
i must say that the christian faith was not invented, at nyceea, if you read the didache or other writings you can sea that. Christians do believe in one god. Our symbol of faith starts with the words: I believe in one God. The councils didn' t make dogmas, they only expressed as good as they could the faith of the christians, the faith for which martyrs died since the first century. Read what the martyrs said when they were tortured, what they died for, what they loved more than their lifes.
 
and you're entitled to your beliefs but that is all they're subjective beliefs with nothing at all to do with logic, common sense or reality.

best,
 
I went to a christian high school and was pretty much an atheist for most of my teenage early twenties.. so indeed I gave this much study.
If you're looking to contradict the Quran then do so. Create a separate thread and start fresh I don't think you were quite successful with this one. And I assure you we've already seen all the crap Christians dish out so if you're hoping to be so avant-garde, use the search feature, for once I'd like to be surprised and not stifle a yawn when presented by Christian rhetoric.

best,
 
Questions for ccc


Who made the two people you mentioned 'saints'?

Did they have divine revelation?

What does the word Messiah mean to you?

Do you believe Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) when he says that he came for the 'lost sheep of Israel'?

Have you read the Holy Qur'an, all 114 chapters?
 
Oh yes.. 'Messiah' if they only knew how many anointed ones there are in their books.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][h=3]by Ahmad Deedat[/h] The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic-Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique:befitting Jesus only. The Christian has a knack of transmuting baser metals into shining gold. What he is wont to do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter, "messiah" to Christ. How does he do that? Very easily MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ. Now change the little 'c' to a capital 'C', and "hey, presto!" he has created a unique (?) name! Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger.Every Prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (christos-ed), but borns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.
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I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Genesis 31:13[/FONT]​
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If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Leviticus 4:3[/FONT]​
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And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Leviticus 8:10[/FONT]​
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...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 Samuel 2:10[/FONT]​
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Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Isaiah 45:1[/FONT]​
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Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Ezekiel 28:14[/FONT]​
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There are a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Everytime you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc.
[h=3]SOME TITLES EXCLUSIVE[/h]Although, every prophet of God is an ANOINTED one of God - a Messiah, the title "Masih" or "Messiah" or its translation "CHRIST" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific title which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasul-lullah", meaning Messenger of God, which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasul-lullah" has become synonymous only with the Prophet of Islam among Muslims.
Every prophet is indeed a FRIEND OF GOD, but its Arabic equivalent "Kha- lil-lullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kalimul-lah" (One who spoke with God) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His Messengers, including Jesus and Muhummed (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon all His servants). Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.
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Debating with Christians brings up a lot of questions, so I have another one.

When Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) wanted to see Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala His Majesty and His Might crumbled the mountains and Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) fell into a coma. Now the question is

Did Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala turn into Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) in order that this would not happen?

If Yes, then was there another god in heaven looking after the affairs of heaven?
 
The Quran seems to talk a lot about paradise - its gardens, rivers, etc. Is there anything
about seeing, living with, or worshipping God after death?

Say: Shall I give you glad tidings of things Far better than those? For the righteous are Gardens in the presence of their Lord, with rivers flowing beneath; therein is their eternal home; with companions pure (and holy); and the good pleasure of Allah. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants - (3:15)

You said that if God were to come into the world and show Himself, we would not survive
because of His power. That makes sense. I see this event occurring with the non-
believers at the Second Coming.

As Muslims, we believe Jesus (not God) was sent to the Children of Israel, and that Jesus (not God) will return once again towards the end of times.

But what if God came temporarily in a form where His glory was veiled?

As explained before:

god + form = not God.

god + temporary = not God.

In Gregory’s view, the real danger lies not in compromising the integrity of these two realities, as the Antiochenes would argue, but rather in the opposite direction: the blending should not be misunderstood as being anything less than a real union. If our humanity is not fully united to God in Christ, then he is in fact two different sons and we have not been divinized in the incarnation. (p. 131) (Saint Gregory)

I didn't know Christians believed everybody was god. Thank you for that. I learned something new today.

As a Christian, I see incarnation as God assuming human natue out of love for all humans; there is a desire to communicate with them perfectly.

This seems to suggest that God did not have the power give His message to the humans He created, without becoming one of them Himself. But, if we take the Christian position that He became a human, and that (contrary to the verse in the Bible), he wasn't just sent (by Himself) to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but to all the world for all time, and we take a well known piece of the Bible such as the Lord's prayer - The very fact, that only two words out of the whole two different versions of it, might be attributed to Jesus* (peace be upon him), tells us that that method of communication wasn't so perfect after all, if the message is indeed for all time to come. It tells us, that something, in that case, is very wrong. That is just one passage, what of the rest of the message?

In the Qur'an we have 100% God's word. His message and communication, His guidance, glad tidings and warnings, preserved in letter and spirit, for all time to come.

* O Lord, Who Wrote Thy Prayer? Newsweek October 31, 1988, p. 44.

I will answe to this with the words of saint Gregory:
" But in as much as He strips Himself for us, in as much as He comes down (and speak of an exinanition, as it were, a laying aside and a diminution of His glory), He becomes by this comprehensible"
"And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there, where the multitude was greater. If He had abode upon His own eminence, if He had not condescended to infirmity, if He had remained what He was, keeping Himself unapproachable and incomprehensible, a few perhaps would have followed Him"

Again, this denigrates the Power and Majesty of God, that God was incapable of effectively sending His message without having to go and live in the messengers body. It is also denigrating to the messenger (Jesus, peace be upon him).

This quote from Gregory shows exactly what was done. In order to get more people to follow Christianity and as the Romans were accustomed to half men/half God and sons of God, which they weren't about to give up, the religion was changed to get the masses to follow it.

is muslims would follow Christ, they would follow him like their savior not only like their prophet. They would have followed The One who become man and revealed himself to them in his mercy, not the distant God they are following, the one who is far from the man in his power.

Don't worry, we are far closer to the true teachings of Christ (peace be upon him). And we worship the same God he did. Christians like to make out Allah is a distant unknown God. We believe in Him, as He told us He is, not as other humans might say, and He is closer to us by His knowledge than our own jugular vein (50:16). He is Loving, Forgiving, Kind and Merciful and stern in punishment.

You should know that rather the Quran is questionable, and that it's pretended unchanged form is a myth, which is not at all sustained by history.Do you have the courage to look at history and be not partisan?

You'll find it's the Bible that's questionable, not the Qur'an. Talking of history and being non-partisan, here we go, from non-Muslim sources:

Dr. J.K. Elliott, of the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at Leeds University, wrote an article published in The Times, London (10th Sept., 1987) entitled “Checking the Bible’s Roots”. In it, he stated that: “More than 5,000 manuscripts contain all or part of the New Testament in its original language. These range in date from the second century up to the invention of printing. It has been estimated that no two agree in all particulars. Inevitably, all handwritten documents are liable to contain accidental errors in copying. However, in living theological works it is not surprising that deliberate changes were introduced to avoid or alter statements that the copyist found unsound. There was also a tendency for copyists to add explanatory glosses[9]. Deliberate changes are more likely to have been introduced at an early stage before the canonical status of the New Testament was established.”

The author went on to explain that “no one manuscript contains the original, unaltered text in its entirety,” and that, “one cannot select any one of these manuscripts and rely exclusively on its text as if it contained the monopoly the original words of the original authors.”

The same principles of analysis which were applied to Bible manuscripts by Bible scholars and which exposed the flaws and changes, have been applied to Qur’aanic manuscripts gathered from around the world. Ancient manuscripts found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin, Ireland, the London Museum, as well as Museums in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, from all periods of Islamic history, have been compared. The result of all such studies confirm that there has not been any change in the text from its original writing. For example, the “Institute fur Koranforschung” of the University of Munich, Germany, collected and collated over 42,000 complete or incomplete copies of the Qur’aan. After some fifty years of study, they reported that in terms of differences between the various copies, there were no variants, except occasional mistakes of copyists, which could easily be ascertained. The institute was destroyed by American bombs during the Second World War.[54]

Quoted in: The True Message of Jesus Christ by Dr Bilal Philips © Copyright 1996 Dar Al Fatah

So, 5,000 manuscripts of the Bible, and no two of them agree, 42,000 manuscripts of the Qur'an and they are all the same. Glory be to Allah!
 
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Debating with Christians brings up a lot of questions, so I have another one.

When Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) wanted to see Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala His Majesty and His Might crumbled the mountains and Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) fell into a coma. Now the question is

Did Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala turn into Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) in order that this would not happen?

If Yes, then was there another god in heaven looking after the affairs of heaven?


Your question makes sense since if Allah came in the form of a human figure, then that would severely limit His infinite sight capabilities. But your question is a bit off the mark, since Jesus (as) was not born yet. He had to be born later in Christian theological terms since he would be born to eventually save mankind from their sin and be their source of redemption. I may not have that right, but if my memory from past conversations with Christians is correct, then this is the case and they would ignore this question by going around it.

It is a very pertinent question because in that situation, it could not be that Allah be in human form since in the first place, only the span of a fingertip of His power touched that mountain and it shattered. In a human form the world, no, i think a large portion of the galaxy would have easily been wiped out in an instant. I don't know the math, but it would be severely catastrophic. Read Tafsir Ibn Kathir, you'll see the fingertip point mentioned there. It's also why your question is a very good one.
 
1-2.While the glorification of saints in the Church has been taking
place for nearly 2000 years, few people today are certain about how
this really happens.
Does the Church "make" a saint? Are there special
panels which decide who can be considered for sainthood? Are saints
"elected" by a majority vote? Does a person have to perform a certain
number of miracles in order to quality as a saint?
The answers to these
questions may be surprising to some.
We know that there are several categories of saints: prophets,
evangelists, martyrs, ascetics, holy bishops and priests, and those who
live a righteous life "in the world." What they all have in common is
holiness of life. Three times in the Book of Leviticus (Ch 11, 19 and
20) God tells us to be holy,
because He is holy. We must consecrate
ourselves, for we are His people. Saint Peter reiterates this
commandment in the new testament, challenging us to obey God’s
commandments and submit our will to His will (1 Pet 1:16). Everyone is
challenged to manifest holiness in their lives, for we all must become
saints! This is our special -* and common -* calling from God. It is not
something reserved for the clergy, monastics, or those who are "more
pious." Everyone who has been baptized into Christ must live in such a
way that Christ lives within us. "Do you not know," Saint Paul asks,
"that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?" (1 Cor 3:16).

The glorification of saints in the Orthodox Church is a recognition
that God’s holiness is manifested in the Church through these
grace-filled men and women whose lives were pleasing to God. Very early
on, the Church recognized the righteous ancestors of Christ (Forefathers), those who predicted His coming (Prophets), and those who proclaimed the Gospel (Apostles and Evangelists). Then those who risked their lives and shed their blood to bear witness to Christ (Martyrs and Confessors) were also recognized by the Church as saints. There was no special
canonization process, but their relics were treasured and the annual
anniversaries of their martyrdoms were celebrated. Later, the ascetics&lt, who followed Christ through self denial, were numbered among the saints. Bishops and priests who proclaimed the True Faith and fought against heresy were added to the list. Finally, those in other walks of life who manifested holiness were recognized as saints.
While the glorification of a saint may be initiated because of miracles,
it is not an absolute necessity for canonization. The Roman Catholic
Church requires three verified miracles in order to recognize someone as
a saint; the Orthodox Church does not require this. There are some
saints, including Saint Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain (July 14) and
Saint Innocent of Moscow (commemorated March 31), who have not performed
any miracles, as far as we know. What is required is a virtuous life of
obvious holiness. And a saint’s writings and preaching must be "fully
Orthodox," in agreement with the pure faith that we have received from
Christ and the Apostles and taught by the Fathers and the Ecumenical
Councils.
Can the Church "make" a saint? The answer is no. Only God can do that.
We glorify those whom God Himself has glorified, seeing in their lives
true love for God and their neighbors. The Church merely recognizes that
such a person has cooperated with God’s grace to the extent that his or
her holiness is beyond doubt.

It is not so much a "canonisation" process, as a proclamation process.Humans
do not canonise Saints. Humans can't "make" someone a Saint simply
because we are not God and man does not gain Theosis apart from God! God
reveals the Saints to us and the Church proclaims the revelation of
God's Saints on earth. There is a subtle yet important distinction.
a person to be truly a saint they must have found favour with God and
that favour is revealed to humanity via wonderous signs. It is not
uncommon for Saints (and their relics) to be revealed to the Church
years and years after they have departed this earth. So, in some
instances we might have scant record of the particular saint's life but
in accordance with Divine Providence, the Saint is revealed to us
through wonderous signs and their relics.Unlike the Catholic Church which applies a human "science" to the canonisation of its saints
requires that the final beatification/canonisation process receives the
direct imprimatur of the pope, Saints within the Orthodox Church are
proclaimed by the Synod of Bishops after many prayers, litanies and all
night vigils.In all instances, the miracles of the Saint are so
many and the wonderous signs so common, that the Church merely
acknowledges that the person truly is a Saint proclaims them as such.
Thus it is not so much a human endeavour, as it is the work of God who
Providentially wishes to reveal His Saints to us. Note, that not
all Saints are proclaimed as not all of God's saints are revealed to us
by God. There are an incredible number of "hidden" Saints who have not
been procaimed and are known only to God. Just because these people
remain hidden and unknown to man, does not detract from their holiness,
as more importantly they are known to God.

Saints had many divine revelation. You can read the live of any saint to see that. Examples from the first century to present: (Silouan the Athonite, who received the grace of unceasing prayer and saw Christ in a vision, saint Serafim de Sarov, Saint Symeon the New Theologian, Saint Stephen the first Martyr, Blessed Andrew, Fool for Christ, Saint Arsen the Great)
3.
"Jesus" is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ιησους (Iēsoûs), itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew יהושע (Yehoshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic ישוע (Yeshua ), (Joshua), meaning "the Lord saves".
"Christ" is His title derived from the Greek Χριστος (Christós), meaning the "Anointed One", a translation of the Hebrew-derived Mashiach ("Messiah").
4. If you read the context in which Jesus says that, you can see that he said that he speaks like that in the middle of the pharisees to the Canaanean (non jewish) woman who asked for mercy for her daughter and finally save her daughter. Through this, Jesus makes the woman to recognize him as Lord and shows to the pharisees how the relation with God must be and that God answers and comes to all not only for them. The real conclusion is that the entire mankind is the lost sheep of Israel.
5. I do not read holly books like novels, i read parts and i try to understand. However i think i read more than half. I have the same principle regarding the Bible.
 
What you said about saints in Christianity sounds the same as with saints in Islam. The saints in Islam stand out for their great piety and their visions and revelations from God Himself. They perform miracles and they give speeches which give life to the spiritually dead. In this I find no difference between the Christian perspective of saint and the Islamic perspective of saint.

However, Islam objects to some of the principles Christians hold towards sainthood. One, is that there are many Christians who worship saints. Why do they do this when God is always there and All-Present?

Two, they build churches over their graves. I understand this could be out of respect for them, but this is against the rules in Islam.

My only query here is why do Christians worship saints? I know not all of them do, but why do groups of them worship some of these men when they worshiped God and did what they had to do in life to please Him?
 
I will give you a fragment from two acceptable article on internet (i mention that worshipping saints is not a good word, better said is veneration of the saints, because worshipping is only for God, and that there are many examples of people who prayed for others to God, so the saints are a good hope for us, because they entered in heaven, they now are purified and God's listen to them):Veneration of Saints and Worship of God.


In the Orthodox Church the worship (latreia) given to God is completely different from the honor (tim) of love (agape) and respect, or even veneration (proskynesis), “paid to all those endowed with some dignity” (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. III, 40).

The Orthodox honor the saints to express their love and gratitude to God, who has “perfected” the saints. As St. Symeon the New Theologian writes, “God is the teacher of the Prophets, the co-traveller with the Apostles, the power of the Martyrs, the inspiration of the Fathers and Teachers, the perfection of all Saints … ”

Throughout early Christianity, Christians customarily met in the places where the martyrs had died, to build churches in their honor, venerate their relics and memory, and present their example for imitation by others.
Interesting information on this subject derives from the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (ch. 17-18), according to which the early Christians reverently collected the remains of the saints and honored them “more than precious stones.” They also met on the day of their death to commemorate “their new birthday, the day they entered into their new life, in Heaven.”
To this day the Orthodox have maintained the liturgical custom of meeting on the day of the saint’s death, of building churches honoring their names, and of paying special respect to their relics and icons. The Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.), in summarizing this practice of the Church, declares that “we adore and respect God our Lord; and those who have been genuine servants of our common Lord we honor and venerate because they have the power to make us friends with God the King of all.”
The earliest christian churches(from first century Ad itself) were built atop the tombs of the martyrs and saints. By third century AD(ie 200-300 AD) the feasts of saints started to be observed.
What does “prayer to the saints” mean?


I. What does “prayer” mean? Generally six Greek words for prayer as translated in different versions, fall into 5 general categories:
a. supplications/intercessions, James 5:5 Prayer of faith will save the sick. I Thess. 5:25 Pray for us, 2 Cor. 9:14 prayer on behalf of the Corinthians, etc.
b. beseeching, Lk. 1:13, 2:37 “fasting and prayer night and day”, Rom. 10:1 “heart’s desire”
James 5:6 effectual fervent prayer.
c. petitions, requests/desires Matt. 21:22 Ask in prayer, believing.
d. worship, Matt 21:13 “house of prayer”, Acts 2:42 “continuing in THE prayers and breaking of bread”, Acts 3:1 “hour of prayer in the temple”, I Cor. 7:5 “fasting and prayer”
“Prayer” is JUST ASKING: Luke 14:18 “I pray thee excuse me”, Acts 10:48 Cornelius prayed Peter to tarry, Acts 16:9 Macedonian call “Praying to Paul saying, “Come!”, Acts 24:4. Paul to Felix: I pray you give us a brief hearing”. The King James translates this word accurately. Most modern translations “fudge” it, but this is technically correct. “Pray” merely means to “ask”or request something of someone.
What do Orthodox Christians mean when we say “Prayer to the saints”?
WE DO NOT MEAN WORSHIP! “Praying to the saints” is merely requesting/asking them to intercede for us, pray for us. THIS IS BIBLICAL LANGUAGE! BUT…if it offends, we can use non-biblical language and just say we are asking the saints for their prayers. (We will deal with whether THAT is Biblical later….)
The hymnology of the Church expresses our relationship to the saints: The hymns about the saints almost always end with “Intercede for us to Christ our God to save our souls”. Note that we do not worship them, or equate them to Christ or God, but merely ask that they intercede for us TO CHRIST, or in modern language, we ask them to pray for us just as we ask any other good Christian friend or pastor to pray for us.


Intercession of Archangel Raphael
“I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.
When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead,
I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.
I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”—Tobit 12: 12-15
Intercession in the Old Testament.
The Prophet Jeremiah prays for the people of Israel(many years after he had died the physical death and departed from material life):-
“What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in appearance, gentle in manners, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood in every virtuous practice, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.
Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air about him of extraordinary, majestic authority.
Onias then said of him, “This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city.”—-2 Maccabees 15: 12-14




“Worship” is one thing, “Veneration” is another



We need to distinguish between these two different words, from the very beginning.
“Veneration” does not always imply “Worship”! It could imply worship, but it could also refer to an honorific bow. When a hotel porter bows to a guest, surely he isn’t actually worshipping the guest! He is merely honoring him, with a respectful bow. In the case of God, however, this respectful bow is also a gesture of worship.
When a Christian bows before one of God’s (sanctified) people, he is not worshipping that person; he is merely honoring that person as a person of God. In the same way, when he bows before the icon of a Saint, he is not worshipping the icon; he is paying homage to the person portrayed on it.
But : if the icon portrays the Lord Jesus Christ, then only is the portrayed person worshipped; not the image, but the actual person that it portrays.
 
It would explain why Jesus is called the Messiah.

Jim
No it doesn't. I have already explained what it means to be called 'the Messiah' and anointed heck even your tabernacles have been .. I am wondering if you the three of you read anything or just copy paste nonsensical rhetoric in hopes it will stick?

best,
 
شَادِنُ;1571838 said:
I am wondering if you the three of you read anything or just copy paste nonsensical rhetoric in hopes it will stick?

Lol. ;D
 

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