Why do Roman Catholics revert to Islam?

[Grace Seeker]

Sampharo,

I'll accept that there elements to the organization structure of a masjid that am still learning. I ask that you might recognize the same is true with regard to churches. When you say,

So yes church charity foundations and activities may be indeed non-profit, but church organizations are certainly not, and they can be registered and run like a trust or corporation.

They can be, but that doesn't mean that all are. Such a statement is too broad. There are churches, church organizations that are indeed non-profit. You may have been unaware of that before. But know now they do exist.

I can tell you that in the small community in which I live there are several church. The pastors of those churches (including the Roman Catholic priest) get together once a month. And when we do we often compare notes. None of us are attemtping to run our churches as a profit. And none are organized for that purpose. We want to pay our bills, educate in the fiath, and do charitable work and that is all -- and not necessarily in that order. (In some cases we have hired staff to help be sure that the above is done, but again most work is done by volunteers.) Anyway, around the table of ministers, more than once we have talked about the attitude that sometimes does creep in when churches are having trouble paying their bills, and someone speaks up and says, "Well, you have to run the church like a business." Our universal response is, "That's fine. But remember, we aren't in the business of builing bank accounts, but building the kingdom of God." This is the more univesal understanding that I have from my experienc within it and why I still disagree with your initial assessment:

Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God

 

[Sampharo]

Let me ask you then:

- Did you receive a budget to build or buy or rent the church you are running right now, and then HQ is not getting anything back, and are not expecting you to ever send any return?

- How much do you as a pastor earn and how much assets were bought by the local church-house? Are the assets in the name of the community or in the name of the church?

- Since you and the other pastors from the other churches in the community come together once a month, do you then have amicable agreements on not "poaching" followers of each other, or did you agree not to send missionaries but will accept whomever comes to your door?

- Does the fact that people are reverting to religions outside the churches, and therefore reducing the income of the churches, bear any effect on your strategies in the neighborhood?

 

[aadil77]

Sampharo,

I'll accept that there elements to the organization structure of a masjid that am still learning. I ask that you might recognize the same is true with regard to churches. When you say,


They can be, but that doesn't mean that all are. Such a statement is too broad. There are churches, church organizations that are indeed non-profit. You may have been unaware of that before. But know now they do exist.

I can tell you that in the small community in which I live there are several church. The pastors of those churches (including the Roman Catholic priest) get together once a month. And when we do we often compare notes. None of us are attemtping to run our churches as a profit. And none are organized for that purpose. We want to pay our bills, educate in the fiath, and do charitable work and that is all -- and not necessarily in that order. (In some cases we have hired staff to help be sure that the above is done, but again most work is done by volunteers.) Anyway, around the table of ministers, more than once we have talked about the attitude that sometimes does creep in when churches are having trouble paying their bills, and someone speaks up and says, "Well, you have to run the church like a business." Our universal response is, "That's fine. But remember, we aren't in the business of builing bank accounts, but building the kingdom of God." This is the more univesal understanding that I have from my experienc within it and why I still disagree with your initial assessment:

I haven't followed the whole thread, but when people donate to your church do they know that are actually paying for your wages and not just for maintenance bills in the church?

 

[Supreme]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but when people donate to your church do they know that are actually paying for your wages and not just for maintenance bills in the church?

For my church, this is certainly true. We are all aware that the pastoral team and youth ministry need to pay their bills, and they do a brilliant job. We're all too happy to pay their wages, so to speak.

 

[FAISAL85]

I am a Roman Catholic (a traditionalist no less). I am comfortable with Islam in many ways because like some have said before in this thread-it is not much of a leap. Especially from a traditionalist perspective.

We pray at least three times a day.
Fast and do penance often.
Ritually cleanse ourselves before prayer (sign of the cross w/ holy water)
Women must be covered and wear head covering in church
Set roles of women and men
Importance of Scripture. etc

But I am not comfortable with Islam in many other ways because especially within the traditionalist community, many see Islam as the biggest threat to the Church and the faithful in the world. They see Islam as being a demonic force in the world that will cripple the Church unless it is stopped. I have been hearing this for three years now and it is a minor miracle I am looking into Islam again now because last week I agreed with them...

I am struggling right now though. I am begging any and all former Catholics on here that have become Muslim to either respond here or PM me and tell me how and why they became Muslim. I need some help. I am torn, I want to follow God but I cannot tell whether Catholicism or Islam is correct. I do not want to end up in Hell...I just want to please God.

pax vobiscum

I am reading it right now. It is beautiful! But you have to understand, it is very difficult for me to believe Catholicism is false. I had a very strong faith until a few days ago.
Thank you for your prayers! I need them!

i was raised catholic.
sunday school, bein an alter boy, going to mass, sign of the cross, exorcising demons, jesus meant everything to me.
Imagine a man, dieing on the cross for YOU!
and being able to carry the cross was a beautiful feeling.
made me feel like a christian warrior!

let me tell you about my passion of the christ story.
It happened first when i started to have a more deeper relationship with God. I started to fast, and i felt the devil and God were on either side of my shoulder and i was in the middle being torn apart. I was crying all day freaking out lol. cant explain to you what happend.. anyway...
That was when i first had my first true revelation if you want to call it that.
that God will communicate to you if you open your heart to listen.
I never watchd the movie passion of the christ till 3 years after it came out, ya im late i know.
I remember that night before sleeping asking God to give me a sign. about my religion and the secrets that he wants me to discover.
So i had a dream that night.
I had a dream i was talking to this really scary looking man.
Looked like Nosferatu with a black robe and hood, very pale, old but still had a strong disposition.
Speaking to me and coming closer.
I was in the middle of a barren wasteland no water.
And this figure was walking towards me.
Then as soon as he was about to put his hand on me, smiling, this angel picked me up and we started to fly! straight up into the sky, and i could see looking down the scary figure screaming and yelling at me.
But all i felt was the wind and the cool water through the clouds and the warmth of the sun and some angel flying at mach 10.. was so awesome. THEN BLACK.
THEN I WOKE UP. sweating, scared freaked out about the dream.
i woke up with a terrible stomach ache. so terrible.
it was like 4 in th emorning
i went to the bathroom but nothing, my pain started to dissapate and i went back up to my room.
I couldnt sleep but i was still talking to God.
I turned on the TV and on Cinemax jus starting BAM
PASSION OF THE CHRIST.
I watched that movie from begining to end.
oh man i never cried so much in a movie.
and if youve seen or havent seen the movie...
theres someone that depicts Satan in the movie.. LOOKED EXACTLY LIKE THE BLACK SCARY FIGURE IN MY DREAM!+o( omg
Remember in the end when Jesus gets resurrected and gets sent back to heaven and the clouds open up and whatever.
And you see a shot of Satan screaming to the sky! EXACTLY LIKE MY DREAM.
Wallahi i am not lieing.
anyway... catholicism was my gate.
my gate into islam.
The reason i tell you this is that, you must not give up on finding the truth.
Keep the connection with God OPEN AT ALL TIMES.
Islam provides that connection. That christianity does not offer me.
As much as a Jesus lover i used to be, which i still am, It was my sincere love of my religion that brought me to something even greater.
Catholicism isnt fake... its a stepping stone my friend.
Only through Islam did i discover my cave of secrets.
and relax your not going to hell lol
God loves you too much.
Hes jus testing the condition of your heart.
Those questions you have, are because you are sincere.
How many other brothers or sisters around you question and have the same FEAR you have? and to question the very foundation of your faith requires complete faith.
its a sign!! JESUS LOVES YOU :statisfie:statisfie lol
Allah swt loves you... and Rasulullah pbuh wants you to discover who HE IS ...
look up a man name Hamza Yusuf, learning about Rasulullah pbuh was such a joy and blessing for me. inshallah. So keep on fighting. dont give up.:raging:
:wa:

 

[Sampharo]

For my church, this is certainly true. We are all aware that the pastoral team and youth ministry need to pay their bills, and they do a brilliant job. We're all too happy to pay their wages, so to speak.

1- Because you were told your membership in the church "justifies" you before God, and that the public prayers and services are are accepted as good deeds?

2- Would you be so happy to pay their bills if you learn that all the chanting and the sermons and services are completely useless and unrelated to God?

 

[Supreme]

1- Because you were told your membership in the church "justifies" you before God, and that the public prayers and services are are accepted as good deeds?

2- Would you be so happy to pay their bills if you learn that all the chanting and the sermons and services are completely useless and unrelated to God?

1- No. My church is anti religion. Religion is very much redundant in my church, a point my pastor repeatedly emphasises. Being a member of a church does not get you into the Kingdom, and we have a sermon around every few months or so on how you should put neither church nor religion before God. Going to church does not make you right before God.

2- Yes, as they do a brilliant job. They answer my queries, and many of them are close friends of mine. I'm a Christian, and a fundamental lesson Jesus taught is charity. I'm all too happy to give money to those who need it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but when people donate to your church do they know that are actually paying for your wages and not just for maintenance bills in the church?

Well, we publish the proposed annual budget for everyone and distribute it to them before we vote to adopt it. It's all in there for anyone to read who takes the time to do so. From their periodic questions I would assume they know this. It's also the standard practice in most (not all) churches, at least in the USA.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Let me ask you then:

- Did you receive a budget to build or buy or rent the church you are running right now, and then HQ is not getting anything back, and are not expecting you to ever send any return?

No, we did not receive a budget to build the church. It was built with money raised from the members of the congregation themselves.

Many years ago now, this particular congregation decided to connect itself with other congregations that had the same theological set of views in order to do more than just local ministries, but that they might also pool their resources together to be more effective in regional, national, and global ministries. We do send money to our central office for that purpose. Of course, if we ever decidied that we no longer wished to be part of that connection we could disolve that arrangement and they would become an independent congregation again.

- How much do you as a pastor earn and how much assets were bought by the local church-house? Are the assets in the name of the community or in the name of the church?

I earn $50,000, plus free use of a parsonage home. (That's probably just a little over average for our particular denomination.) The assessts are in the name of the local congregation.

- Since you and the other pastors from the other churches in the community come together once a month, do you then have amicable agreements on not "poaching" followers of each other, or did you agree not to send missionaries but will accept whomever comes to your door?

Sometimes "poaching" happens. I'm not aware of any of us doing it actively, but people do change from one congregation to another for a variety of reasons ranging from preference for a particular service style to interpersonal relationships and every thing inbetween.

- Does the fact that people are reverting to religions outside the churches, and therefore reducing the income of the churches, bear any effect on your strategies in the neighborhood?

No. I can remember when it used to. Once upon a time people thought that if we could get more members we would have more money to do more things. Well, the reality is that adding members actually costs a church, because new people tend to make greater demands on services, but don't contribute to supporting the church's ministries at the same level that long-term members typically do. It's taken some time to educate our church's officers with regard to that truth, but our outreach ministries continue to increase both in terms of local and oversees charity work, and local evangelism efforts.

Note: In our local, the problem isn't so much with people reverting to other religions, but people who simply drop out of (or more likely never got involved in) religious communities altogether, in favor of not practicing any religion whatsoever.

 

[Sampharo]

^ I have to thank you for your honesty. I wouldn't go as far as saying that you may be the victim of your own sincerity, but I would say that I am seeing too much clarity in your own words to warrant your earlier arguments of churches not existing for profit.

Church built out of local community money, then members paying constantly to upkeep it, and that upkeep includes a pastoral salary twice that of a junior executive, in addition to money being sent back to central HQ to cover the fees of being a member. How can you call this NOT a profit-based setting?

Yes you spend a lot of money on charitable work and service provision, but so do established corporations and they call it Social Responsibility. Yes you send very small amounts to HQ, but nobody says you need to MAXIMIZE profit to be a profit-based entity. As a matter of fact you have all the elements of a franchise: Central originator gives doctrine and operating guidelines, and gets paid royalties, while branches are setup by the local constituents.

I am sorry if I have a personal moment here and express an honest opinion: It is a strange and somehow worrying tendency to see people, even good people, fall into the trap of rationalizing everything for themselves in order to stay in a comfort zone of familiarity. Budhists go to their temples and "rent" little statuettes to receive blessings in their business for a year or six months, and run after monks in vans to pay them the due "fees" for a string of blessing around their wrists, Hindus pay the ashram guru to perform every blessing and prayer they need, Mormons and other churches collecting 10% tithes, catholics and protestants promoting and pushing for a support system that raised their value to billions, and in the middle of all this people are ACTUALLY thinking that they "represent" God?

Grace Seeker do you really believe that if God wanted or condoned churches and "working" as ministers and priests, why did Moses work as a sheepherder? Why was Jesus a carpenter? Why did Mohammad manage caravans and die with less than 5 items to his name? How can hundreds of billions of dollars taken away from the people, be the "kingdom of God"? Is the Kingdom of God now nothing more than a profitable organization doing a lot of business, with 70 doctrines in contradiction with each other and somehow God accepts them all? Why have any then?

Although I thank you for your honesty and your answers, I do not see a reason or basis to think you are actually looking at this with an eye of neutrality. I just think you "enjoy" what you're doing and don't care for anything beyond that. It is obvious however that you shouldn't wonder anymore why "people who simply drop out of (or more likely never got involved in) religious communities altogether, in favor of not practicing any religion whatsoever", and shouldn't wonder why the numbers of revert muslims are growing by the day.

Guess it's time to bring this thread back to its original subject then.

 

[ccc]

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

 

[aadil77]

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

They most likely would have left for a reason, such as beliefs that make no sense to them eg; concept of trinity, jesus being a man and a god, salvation etc etc

 

[Amadeus85]

They most likely would have left for a reason, such as beliefs that make no sense to them eg; concept of trinity, jesus being a man and a god, salvation etc etc

Believing in trinity and salvation through Jesus Christ is part of catholic theology.

 

[Grace Seeker]

They most likely would have left for a reason, such as beliefs that make no sense to them eg; concept of trinity, jesus being a man and a god, salvation etc etc

You have to understand, ccc posts from a radically fundamentist view similar to that espoused by Jack Chick that the Catholic Church in Rome is the modern day Babylon. Catholic theology, as expressed in their written Catechsim of the Catholic Church, does in fact teach the concept of the Trinity and that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, and that salvation is through faith in Jesus. Despite all of these things ccc holds that Catholics are not Christians. And if I can project for a moment, if he believes all that Jack Chick claims, despite Catholics holding these core Christian beliefs he still regards the Catholic Church as being an instrument of Satan. That's what I believe he meant when he posted:

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

---edit------edit----------edit---------edit---------------------

In reading some of ccc's posts elsewhere I believe that I may have mischaracterized him here. There is nothing in any other post that I have read to suggest an attitude similar to that of Jack Chick. ccc, my apologies. I regret the error and beg your forgiveness for jumping to a conclusion.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Guess it's time to bring this thread back to its original subject then.

Yes, I'm going to repost your question (part of it anyway) in the "Asking Questions of Christians" thread.


--edit---edit---edit-------------------------

Which, sadly, I find has for some reason disappeared from the board. But I found a similar thread, hope you find your post and my response there if you're still interested.

 

[Supreme]

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

Oh no. Not one of these 'extremist' types that believes Catholics aren't real Christians. I thought you guys in the lunatic fringe would be too busy proclaiming Fred Phelps as a second Messiah and hating homosexuals to be coming on Islamic forums...

 

[Grace Seeker]

Oh no. Not one of these 'extremist' types that believes Catholics aren't real Christians. I thought you guys in the lunatic fringe would be too busy proclaiming Fred Phelps as a second Messiah and hating homosexuals to be coming on Islamic forums...

Supreme, I believe I may have mischaracterized ccc. I jumped to a conclusion from a single post and a bad memory. In re-reading some of his posts today, I most admit I have found nothing in any other post by ccc which would substantiate the way I slandered him on the previous page.

 

[Supreme]

Supreme, I believe I may have mischaracterized ccc. I jumped to a conclusion from a single post and a bad memory. In re-reading some of his posts today, I most admit I have found nothing in any other post by ccc which would substantiate the way I slandered him on the previous page.

He doesn't consider Catholics Christians. Need any more be said on the matter?:hmm:

 

[Grace Seeker]

He doesn't consider Catholics Christians. Need any more be said on the matter?:hmm:

At first, that is what I thought as well. But after re-reading some of his other posts, I'm not so sure that it is what ccc actually meant by the above post. So, unless he makes it as a declaratory statement, rather than an interrogative, I'm not going to jump to that conclusion in advance of him saying so himself.

 

[freethinking]

The answer for any "Catholic" is surely that both catholic and muslims are rutualistic religions, which does not really take account of God's amazing Spritual creative spontenaiety. God is not into repetitiveness God loves us to sing praise to him from our hearts, whenever we are moved to do thiis or prompted by God's amazing Holy Spirit.

Both also don't seem to recognise that the ENTIRE Bible in addion to being about Go'ds amazing Love, is from beginning to end all about the Spiritual war with Satan that is going on in and around us to steal our eternal lives with God by Satan. Both also don't seem to recognise that When one walks with the Holy spirit inside one, the devil cannot come near to oneself, we are fully protected.
One profound difference which I found incredible completely contrdicts the idea that A catholic can accommodate the muslim faith, is the complete failure of the muslim world to recognise Jeses war against satan when as a lamb he went to the cross and rose from the dead as prohecised in the old testament and thereby defeated death and by his Blood cleeansed our sins.
True submission to God is to have a personal two way relationship with God and only to trust the words of scripture when the holy spirit reveals the deeper meanings of the words of God.
For example in the first book of Genises we see on day 3 that God introduced Light into this universe and this eternity, but on day 4 God created the Sun, the moon and the stars, so what was the light on the third day? I understand that this was Jesus being brought into this Universe against the darkness that is Satan and his demons.
Peace and God's blessing to you all